I dont see Fr. Matta Maskeen as heretical.. nor is this issue (remembering your sins) something pertinent to his predicament within the Church NOR related with it.
Remembering your sins is not a theological issue, or dogmatic one either. That was what the dispute was over - dogmatic/theological principles that even H.E Bishop Bishoy said :"Its not for everyone to understand, or to be occupied with".
But the Pope, in His book, makes it clear that protestant spirituality is to forget one's sins. Orthodox is the exact opposite.
If remembering them makes you depressed, this is another issue, because after you've repented and confessed them, why would you feel depressed for??? They've been forgiven!! You shouldnt forget them at all.
I would rather we did not get distracted down the line of discussing George Bebawy or Father Matta, these are not the same issues as should most concern us so much.
The issues that Orthodox people seem to describe to me as being most pressing are:
i. Attendance by youth and others at Protestant meetings
ii. Acceptance by youth and others of Protestant teachings
iii. Manifestation by youth and others of Protestant Pentecostal phenomena
iv. Introduction of Protestant worship into the Orthodox community
v. Introduction of Protestant ideas into the Orthodox community through preaching and Bible studies
vi. Close association of some Coptic ministries with Protestant groups
vii. Apparent inability of our Orthodox community to deal firmly with these issues
All of these are highly damaging and corrupting to the Orthodox nature of the Church.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=11053.msg134157#msg134157 date=1301129945] I would rather we did not get distracted down the line of discussing George Bebawy or Father Matta, these are not the same issues as should most concern us so much.
The issues that Orthodox people seem to describe to me as being most pressing are:
i. Attendance by youth and others at Protestant meetings
ii. Acceptance by youth and others of Protestant teachings
iii. Manifestation by youth and others of Protestant Pentecostal phenomena
iv. Introduction of Protestant worship into the Orthodox community
v. Introduction of Protestant ideas into the Orthodox community through preaching and Bible studies
vi. Close association of some Coptic ministries with Protestant groups
vii. Apparent inability of our Orthodox community to deal firmly with these issues
All of these are highly damaging and corrupting to the Orthodox nature of the Church.
But you agree that one of the most serious issues is the correction of Orthodox priests by youth that go to HTB, and promoting Protestant spirituality and understanding of the Bible rather than accepting the Orthodox spirituality in its fullness??
That to me is very serious! To correct a priest with garbage.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=11053.msg134159#msg134159 date=1301130832] Well that is just a particular detail isn't it, that fits into the overall problem.
I don't know what you think, but this is a HUGE detail.
Correcting a priest!!??
To tell them (no teach them!) what you've learnt at HTB??
Anyway, do you have any suggestions on any of this??
There are 3 bishops and 1 Metropolitan in the UK. The Metropolitan, my bishop, does not accept Protestant teaching or practices in the Church. To be honest, we discussed this last night at my Bible study, where most of us are converts from protestantism and we are all concerned about the infiltration of these teachings and practices. Some folk were shocked.
About being disrespectful to a priest, that is a symptom of the protestantisation issue not the cause of it, is what I mean.
I do not know very much what is being done to the Coptic youth in England pastorally. I believe when youth feel they do not have a place in their Church, they seek others that make feel they are the center of attention. This is true everywhere in Egypt, the US and Canada, ...
In the Southern Diocese of the US we hold several conferences for the youth throughout the year. We have 4 for the elementary, 4 for the Secondary (2 in Winter and 2 in the Summer). We have 2 for the high school, 2 for the College and 2 for the graduate, 2 for the family.
This is in addition to the local and regional conferences. The priests attend these conferences and play with the kids and befriend them. The Bishop also attend some conferences.
My point is that the kids and the congregation need to feel that the Church is everything to them and they do not need to look outside. Yes, there will be instances when some will astray, but it would be much easier to deal with these cases.
My personal opinion is that it is not wise to always seek to satisfy everyone.
There is a need to make sure that there is proper pastoral provision for all, and this means to me that the Liturgy must be in English and there must be proper spiritual and theological teaching that has as its aim forming mature Orthodox Christians. We must stress that Orthodoxy is THE TRUTH.
In my experience as an evangelical youth, we also had a wide social network of activities to keep us busy, and it did. But because we were not taught that what we believed was THE TRUTH, not that it was, it meant that when we went elsewhere, as we did, and discovered that we liked other ways of doing things better and it didn't matter that our church leadership was trying to keep us involved, if we found things we enjoyed better then what was there to prevent us choosing them.
So my concern about just keeping the youth satisfied is that the Church is not in the business of satisfying people, and people need to be taught very early on that the reason we are Orthodox is not because it is always enjoyable but because it is TRUE. I get the sense that this is part of the present problem. Some youth are going elsewhere and saying 'I like this better'. But this can only be because they have not understood that what they like, what we all like, is IRRELEVANT.
If someone is really committed to protestant ideas and practices then in the end they must be allowed to leave and become protestants. There are many protestants who are ready to become Orthodox. It is not right that they should go through the great trials of becoming Orthodox, and perhaps losing their friends (as I did) and then discover that the Orthodox Church has abandoned itself to protestantism. We must also be concerned about all these potential converts - God loves them also - and for their sake, as well as our own, we need to preserve the TRUTH so that we can share it with them.
I agree with you Fr. Peter. However, in the current age the youth are very dynamic, at least in the US. They do leave when they are 18 years of age to go to other cities for school. If there are no activities for the youth to keep them involved in the Church and the only thing she has is the ritual services, then the youth would be inclined to just go to the church they used to go to and if it is not available then they would be attracted to a place that has activities and focus on those and leave the spiritual side.
I guess what I am saying the Church has to care for the spiritual, as well as, the physical, psychological, ...etc.
I don't disagree at all imikhail, I guess what I mean is that by age 18 an Orthodox youth should know what being Orthodox means and should be aware that leaving Orthodoxy is a spiritual death.
I don't sense from the things being reported that this is unversally the case. It seems to me that many young adults leave home with a false understanding of what being Orthodox means and consider that our Faith is just one way of doing things among a variety of other ways of doing things.
That view is dangerous and deadly, and that is what I think is most important to overcome in the youth, even while all the other things are also necessary and useful. But in the end a person will not be saved just because they attend the church Basketball club, they need to know that they are Orthodox and choose Orthodoxy for themselves.
You hit the nail on the head Fr. Peter. This requires teaching curriculum that is both appealing to the youth and at the same time Orthodox. Also, this needs dedicated clergy that are well trained as Seminarians and also understand the culture they live in.
Unfortunately that is not the case, at least in the US. We have clergy that come straight from Egypt that could barely speak English and thus a huge gap is developed between the youth and the Church. This gave rise to the numerous conferences I mentioned earlier and the kids are attached to the Church not because they are Orthodox but because of a social reason.
I believe in a strong Seminary to train clergy in theology as well as cultural awareness.
when young adults go off to university it should be the atheists that are afraid of them, and their colleagues who avoid rude jokes in front of them and the local churches who are delighted to receive them if only for a short while. instead of saying 'oh no, my daughter is going to university in town X', we should say 'what a blessing for town X that my daughter is going there to influence them with God's love'.
i was living in a town recently, and was delighted to find out a young man i knew was coming to study there from a church i used to attend (coptic). i thank God for His blessing on that town through this man and through the other young people i have met who attend church and work or study there. i now don't feel so bad about leaving that town (i had to move for work, i had no choice), as i can see God is continuing His work there.
so, we should equip our young people to change the world and build God's kingdom. sunday school should include advice about sharing one's faith at school or out with friends and learning to rely on God, not on one's parents.
Guys, my point was merely that those running the Alpha Course happen to be proponents of Charismatic irrational behaviour, It doesn't mean that the Alpha Course is wrong or bad in anyway.
All I'm saying is that the proponents of this course, those administering it, as far as I can see, seem to bring protestant, charismatic theology with them along with it.
It doesn't mean that the Alpha Course is wrong or bad in anyway.
I don't want to further resurrect an old thread. I would just like to repost an important point that Fr Peter brought up.
In an article in the Charismatic magazine RENEWAL in May 1995 NICKY GUMBEL wrote – ‘I believe it is no coincidence that the present movement of the Holy Spirit [referring to the TORONTO BLESSING where people roll around on the floor and scream] has come at the same time as the explosion of the Alpha Courses. I think the two go together’
Apart from Fr Peter's opinion which has been made clear in this thread, this is a video of Anba Serapion I just posted in the other thread on Coptic Charismatism.
After watching it, I don't think anyone would be able to tell me with a straight face that the Alpha Course is OK (I know he doesn't address it directly).
There are some Coptic Churches that are trying an adaptation of "The Way Course" which is sort of an Orthodox version of the Alpha Course. It takes it further than Alpha though because it is centered around a meal. The sessions span 6-8 weeks and are a great way to introduce people to the Church. Essentially the meetings are a gathering around a free meal and present the Christian faith in an atmosphere of friendship, free exchange, and trust; where every question and opinion is treated with respect and is worthy of attention.
It appears that the danger is when the Alpha Course is used without analyzing its underlying Theology. Perhaps there is a lesson to be learned from even Nicky Gumbel. Remember St Basil's words:
"...from each source [of non-Christian wisdom] let us both affirm virtue and critique evil. Just as honeybees enjoy certain flowers for their color or fragrance yet draw no nectar from such, so too let us strive to derive only what is profitable from all sources, and treasure such within our souls.
Let our use of books and learning in every case mirror the ‘icon’ of the honeybee. For such does not visit every flower in the same manner, neither does the honeybee attempt to fly off bearing the burden of the entire flower. Rather, once it derives that which is needful from the flower, it leaves the rest behind and takes flight.
So, too, if we are wise, once we derive from learning what resonates with truth, we too shall leave the rest behind and take flight.
For is it not so that when we take a rose we avoid its thorns? So too let us approach diverse writings, harvesting the fruits that they offer for our objectives, while protecting ourselves from the damaging elements that may lie within them. In all our studies, let us take with us and take within us only what builds us up and what leads us in the fulfillment of our mission..." From the Protreptikos of St Basil the Great
But with that being said, we do have a history of adopting methods that eventually become status quo within the Church :s
"In an effort to compete with Protestant evangelical efforts, Coptic clergy organized informal religious meetings and activities in the Coptic Church that modeled after British and American missionary prototypes." From "Taratîl: Songs of Praise and the Musical Discourse of Nostalgia among Coptic Immigrants in Toronto, Canada" (2006). Electronic Theses, Treatises and Dissertations. Paper 2125. http://diginole.lib.fsu.edu/etd/2125
There are some Coptic Churches that are trying an adaptation of "The Way Course" which is sort of an Orthodox version of the Alpha Course. It takes it further than Alpha though because it is centered around a meal. The sessions span 6-8 weeks and are a great way to introduce people to the Church. Essentially the meetings are a gathering around a free meal and present the Christian faith in an atmosphere of friendship, free exchange, and trust; where every question and opinion is treated with respect and is worthy of attention.
Let our use of books and learning in every case mirror the ‘icon’ of the honeybee. For such does not visit every flower in the same manner, neither does the honeybee attempt to fly off bearing the burden of the entire flower. Rather, once it derives that which is needful from the flower, it leaves the rest behind and takes flight.
So, too, if we are wise, once we derive from learning what resonates with truth, we too shall leave the rest behind and take flight.
Great, and this appears to be what the makers of "The Way Course" have done in the process of making their course. They took an idea, but implemented it according to an Orthodox ethos . I would also like to note that this methodology does not only apply to 'learning' from the praxis of Christian groups outside the One Church (i.e. Protestants), but we can also apply it to secular, Muslim, Buddhist, etc, praxis. Obviously we would not copy a Muslim program and only make a few cosmetic changes or just remove the sentence where it says that "Jesus is not God", so neither should we do this with the Alpha Course. They both come from groups that are not truly Christian, because they are not Orthodox.
But with that being said, we do have a history of adopting methods that eventually become status quo within the Church :s
"In an effort to compete with Protestant evangelical efforts, Coptic clergy organized informal religious meetings and activities in the Coptic Church that modeled after British and American missionary prototypes." From "Taratîl: Songs of Praise and the Musical Discourse of Nostalgia among Coptic Immigrants in Toronto, Canada" (2006). Electronic Theses, Treatises and Dissertations. Paper 2125. http://diginole.lib.fsu.edu/etd/2125
I don't agree with this at all. By calling these meetings "informal", one must think that the liturgical prayers are "formal". How can prayers be "formal' or "informal"? Prayer is simply prayer, and it must be liturgical.
Thanks Qawe, I agree. I also think as Orthodox Christians we are called to bless the world and reveal what is beautiful and true.
BTW my past few posts have been a bit fatalist so don't want to discourage or scandalize anyone by them. May God have mercy and preserve the Church. May we learn and cooperate with our Eastern and Oriental Orthodox brothers and sisters.
I read Fr Stephen's blog today and it is the second reminder this week of focusing on the more important things. Prayer, Works of Compassion, Love, Joy, Mercy, repentance, charity, Union with God, and becoming Holy...
"God grant us to joyfully unite ourselves to Christ as Christ unites all things to Himself."
Comments
I highly recommend you finish reading 'The Orthodox Prayer Life' by Abouna Matta El Meskeen. It's a wonderful read.
I dont see Fr. Matta Maskeen as heretical.. nor is this issue (remembering your sins) something pertinent to his predicament within the Church NOR related with it.
Remembering your sins is not a theological issue, or dogmatic one either. That was what the dispute was over - dogmatic/theological principles that even H.E Bishop Bishoy said :"Its not for everyone to understand, or to be occupied with".
But the Pope, in His book, makes it clear that protestant spirituality is to forget one's sins. Orthodox is the exact opposite.
If remembering them makes you depressed, this is another issue, because after you've repented and confessed them, why would you feel depressed for??? They've been forgiven!! You shouldnt forget them at all.
The issues that Orthodox people seem to describe to me as being most pressing are:
i. Attendance by youth and others at Protestant meetings
ii. Acceptance by youth and others of Protestant teachings
iii. Manifestation by youth and others of Protestant Pentecostal phenomena
iv. Introduction of Protestant worship into the Orthodox community
v. Introduction of Protestant ideas into the Orthodox community through preaching and Bible studies
vi. Close association of some Coptic ministries with Protestant groups
vii. Apparent inability of our Orthodox community to deal firmly with these issues
All of these are highly damaging and corrupting to the Orthodox nature of the Church.
I would rather we did not get distracted down the line of discussing George Bebawy or Father Matta, these are not the same issues as should most concern us so much.
The issues that Orthodox people seem to describe to me as being most pressing are:
i. Attendance by youth and others at Protestant meetings
ii. Acceptance by youth and others of Protestant teachings
iii. Manifestation by youth and others of Protestant Pentecostal phenomena
iv. Introduction of Protestant worship into the Orthodox community
v. Introduction of Protestant ideas into the Orthodox community through preaching and Bible studies
vi. Close association of some Coptic ministries with Protestant groups
vii. Apparent inability of our Orthodox community to deal firmly with these issues
All of these are highly damaging and corrupting to the Orthodox nature of the Church.
But you agree that one of the most serious issues is the correction of Orthodox priests by youth that go to HTB, and promoting Protestant spirituality and understanding of the Bible rather than accepting the Orthodox spirituality in its fullness??
That to me is very serious! To correct a priest with garbage.
Well that is just a particular detail isn't it, that fits into the overall problem.
I don't know what you think, but this is a HUGE detail.
Correcting a priest!!??
To tell them (no teach them!) what you've learnt at HTB??
Anyway, do you have any suggestions on any of this??
I beleve there is a coptic bishop in england. What is bis view on all of this?
About being disrespectful to a priest, that is a symptom of the protestantisation issue not the cause of it, is what I mean.
In the Southern Diocese of the US we hold several conferences for the youth throughout the year. We have 4 for the elementary, 4 for the Secondary (2 in Winter and 2 in the Summer). We have 2 for the high school, 2 for the College and 2 for the graduate, 2 for the family.
This is in addition to the local and regional conferences. The priests attend these conferences and play with the kids and befriend them. The Bishop also attend some conferences.
My point is that the kids and the congregation need to feel that the Church is everything to them and they do not need to look outside. Yes, there will be instances when some will astray, but it would be much easier to deal with these cases.
Thanks.
There is a need to make sure that there is proper pastoral provision for all, and this means to me that the Liturgy must be in English and there must be proper spiritual and theological teaching that has as its aim forming mature Orthodox Christians. We must stress that Orthodoxy is THE TRUTH.
In my experience as an evangelical youth, we also had a wide social network of activities to keep us busy, and it did. But because we were not taught that what we believed was THE TRUTH, not that it was, it meant that when we went elsewhere, as we did, and discovered that we liked other ways of doing things better and it didn't matter that our church leadership was trying to keep us involved, if we found things we enjoyed better then what was there to prevent us choosing them.
So my concern about just keeping the youth satisfied is that the Church is not in the business of satisfying people, and people need to be taught very early on that the reason we are Orthodox is not because it is always enjoyable but because it is TRUE. I get the sense that this is part of the present problem. Some youth are going elsewhere and saying 'I like this better'. But this can only be because they have not understood that what they like, what we all like, is IRRELEVANT.
If someone is really committed to protestant ideas and practices then in the end they must be allowed to leave and become protestants. There are many protestants who are ready to become Orthodox. It is not right that they should go through the great trials of becoming Orthodox, and perhaps losing their friends (as I did) and then discover that the Orthodox Church has abandoned itself to protestantism. We must also be concerned about all these potential converts - God loves them also - and for their sake, as well as our own, we need to preserve the TRUTH so that we can share it with them.
I guess what I am saying the Church has to care for the spiritual, as well as, the physical, psychological, ...etc.
Thanks.
I don't sense from the things being reported that this is unversally the case. It seems to me that many young adults leave home with a false understanding of what being Orthodox means and consider that our Faith is just one way of doing things among a variety of other ways of doing things.
That view is dangerous and deadly, and that is what I think is most important to overcome in the youth, even while all the other things are also necessary and useful. But in the end a person will not be saved just because they attend the church Basketball club, they need to know that they are Orthodox and choose Orthodoxy for themselves.
Unfortunately that is not the case, at least in the US. We have clergy that come straight from Egypt that could barely speak English and thus a huge gap is developed between the youth and the Church. This gave rise to the numerous conferences I mentioned earlier and the kids are attached to the Church not because they are Orthodox but because of a social reason.
I believe in a strong Seminary to train clergy in theology as well as cultural awareness.
instead of saying 'oh no, my daughter is going to university in town X', we should say 'what a blessing for town X that my daughter is going there to influence them with God's love'.
i was living in a town recently, and was delighted to find out a young man i knew was coming to study there from a church i used to attend (coptic). i thank God for His blessing on that town through this man and through the other young people i have met who attend church and work or study there. i now don't feel so bad about leaving that town (i had to move for work, i had no choice), as i can see God is continuing His work there.
so, we should equip our young people to change the world and build God's kingdom. sunday school should include advice about sharing one's faith at school or out with friends and learning to rely on God, not on one's parents.
In an article in the Charismatic magazine RENEWAL in May 1995 NICKY GUMBEL wrote –
‘I believe it is no coincidence that the present movement of the Holy Spirit [referring to the TORONTO BLESSING where people roll around on the floor and scream] has come at the same time as the explosion of the Alpha Courses. I think the two go together’
Source: http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/alphabycecil.pdf
Summary: The Alpha Course is not good news.
After watching it, I don't think anyone would be able to tell me with a straight face that the Alpha Course is OK (I know he doesn't address it directly).
It appears that the danger is when the Alpha Course is used without analyzing its underlying Theology. Perhaps there is a lesson to be learned from even Nicky Gumbel. Remember St Basil's words:
"...from each source [of non-Christian wisdom] let us both affirm virtue and critique evil. Just as honeybees enjoy certain flowers for their color or fragrance yet draw no nectar from such, so too let us strive to derive only what is profitable from all sources, and treasure such within our souls.
Let our use of books and learning in every case mirror the ‘icon’ of the honeybee. For such does not visit every flower in the same manner, neither does the honeybee attempt to fly off bearing the burden of the entire flower. Rather, once it derives that which is needful from the flower, it leaves the rest behind and takes flight.
So, too, if we are wise, once we derive from learning what resonates with truth, we too shall leave the rest behind and take flight.
For is it not so that when we take a rose we avoid its thorns? So too let us approach diverse writings, harvesting the fruits that they offer for our objectives, while protecting ourselves from the damaging elements that may lie within them. In all our studies, let us take with us and take within us only what builds us up and what leads us in the fulfillment of our mission..."
From the Protreptikos of St Basil the Great
"In an effort to compete with Protestant evangelical efforts, Coptic clergy organized informal religious meetings and activities in the Coptic Church that modeled after British and American missionary prototypes."
From "Taratîl: Songs of Praise and the Musical Discourse of Nostalgia among Coptic Immigrants in Toronto, Canada" (2006). Electronic Theses, Treatises and Dissertations. Paper 2125. http://diginole.lib.fsu.edu/etd/2125
BTW my past few posts have been a bit fatalist so don't want to discourage or scandalize anyone by them. May God have mercy and preserve the Church. May we learn and cooperate with our Eastern and Oriental Orthodox brothers and sisters.
I read Fr Stephen's blog today and it is the second reminder this week of focusing on the more important things. Prayer, Works of Compassion, Love, Joy, Mercy, repentance, charity, Union with God, and becoming Holy...
"God grant us to joyfully unite ourselves to Christ as Christ unites all things to Himself."
http://blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/2015/06/15/a-cosmic-salvation/