[quote author=geomike link=topic=11053.msg133667#msg133667 date=1300833918] How did she go into the church and do this? I am talking about the first page video. How was she able to bring people with guitars and start to do her songs? My bad tells me that this video is fake, but it's really hard to fake a video unless you photoshop every single frame which is a waste of time since it can sometimes be over ten thousand.
If she goes off and tells a Coptic Christian or priest that she's Greek Orthodox and would like to pray with Coptic Orthodox Christians, then she may have gotten away with it. The priests may not have known her, nor her agenda.
I think the best thing you can all do, like me, is to let others know that she has been excommunicated.
I think you have missed the point rather. No one is talking about whether protestants have any hope of salvation. That is a matter for God alone. It is whether protestantism is a heresy or not. It clearly is. One every point it teaches outright error. What is the definition of heresy if not that it is the teaching of error.
No Orthodox youth should attend protestant meetings. What is taught there is error. It is incomprehensible to me that any Orthodox could want to attend such meetings or be allowed to. This has nothing to do with whether or not protestants will be received into heaven.
It is concerning if you cannot yourself see how far from the truth protestantism is on almost every aspect of our faith, and I say that with much love.
As a former Protestant, I must take issue with a few of the things your father has written to you. Please, please do not misconstrue this as rejecting his overall point or belittling his person. I, as a non-Orthodox, must try my hardest to remain humble and willing to learn, first and foremost. But I cannot ignore the following, so I type this out of love and a desire to respond as I would to any person would put forth similar arguments:
1) The use of "mainline": I'm not entirely sure most people are aware of what this means anymore. I grew up in a mainline denomination, and most people within it didn't know what it meant, either. People seem to take it as a shorthand for "mainstream" (Trinitarian, non-snake handling, etc.), but historically it had to do with the connection of a given church group to a particular community (usually a particular immigrant community).
[quote="wikipedia"]Mainline or mainline Protestant (also sometimes called mainstream) denominations are those that comprised the vast majority of American Christianity from the colonial era until the early 1900s. Most of these denominations were brought to America by their respective historic immigrant groups. Many of these immigrants quickly became affluent and settled, by the time the term "mainline" became attributed to them, in the wealthier suburbs of large Northeastern and Midwestern urban areas. The origins of the term "mainline" lie in this fact, the term is itself borrowed from the "Philadelphia Main Line", a group of affluent suburban communities settled along the Pennsylvania Railroad Main Line immediately outside of Philadelphia. A large portion of the inhabitants of this area belonged to what are now considered "mainline" denominations.
It doesn't really have to do with "mainstream" doctrine or anything like that, or at least it didn't originally. Given that, I'm a little confused when I read that "all mainline Christians can go to heaven", as though there's something particular to Evangelical Lutherans, Methodists, and Presbyterians that can't also be said of other Protestant sects. It seems like a very minor point, but I can't help but wonder how such judgments are made without perhaps as much study into the background of the groups that the well-meaning and loving, but mostly not former-Protestant, Coptic leadership are talking about. When Fr. Peter talks about Protestantism, it is from having lived it and knowing it intimately as an insider! So maybe ex-Protestants' judgments of Protestantism seem a little harsh, but they've seen all the flaws up close.
2) Does the lack of a quote from HH Pope Shenouda III condemning this or that practice really count as evidence in favor of Protestantism in light of the very real danger it can present? I mean...I haven't come across anything in HH's writings that tells me that I shouldn't fly a kite in a thunderstorm, but I still know it's a bad idea to do so! And that is the problem: If everyone takes HH's actions or (lack of) words as their model in this particular case, then they may be ignoring the fact that they are not as spiritually strong as the Pope, and they may fall prey to Protestantism as a result of their misapplication of HH's loving example to their own lives and situations. It may seem strange to read this, but if I were a priest in the Orthodox Church and I had to come up with a rule for every communicant of mine who wanted to go to a Protestant church for some reason, I would say this: Until you can understand why you should not go, you cannot go.
3) "It is my suspicion that the stronger line that some in our Church take towards Christians of other denominations is based more on a fear of our flock being proselytized by eager Protestants rather than on any firm theological position" -- Ya Abouna, this watchfulness (I don't like "fear"; the truth has no fear) against the proselytization of Orthodox youth is entirely reasonable and necessary precisely because of the firm theological position against the error of Protestantism that is itself entirely reasonable, considering the truth of Orthodoxy.
Thank you, Epchois Nai Nan. Please thank your father. It is a blessing to read his words.
I am sorry but I cannot agree to disagree. The salvation of souls is at stake.
There is no problem with asserting that protestants believe error and that God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. What you are proposing is that we must say that since protestants will go to heaven they must believe the truth.
How can this be so!
It would be helpful if you were able to concentrate on what is taught by protestants.
Do you believe it is error or not?
Please respond in regard to:
Baptism Eucharist Priesthood Virgin Mary Saints Nature of the Church Means of Salvation Chrismation Interpretation of Scripture Books of the Bible Authority of the Fathers Written prayers Fasting Liturgy Forms of worship
Please respond as to whether you think protestants teach the truth about these things or error. If they teach the truth then our Orthodox Faith is false. If they teach error then how can it be wise, safe or permissible for an Orthodox youth to be placed in a situation where they will be affected by such teachings?
I think when Fr Peter responds, he somehow writes his comments as if they are his opinion. Which is fine, but that gives you the impression that opinions are open for debate.
Unfortunately, in this case, His Holiness Pope Shenouda has made it absolutely clear that Coptic orthodox Christians are NOT allowed to attend protestant prayer meetings, or gatherings. Friendship is fine.
In fact, if I paraphrase my FoC - he actually goes to the point of saying: "H.H said - if you go there, do not come back."
Its that serious.
This is not a question for debate. I have no idea why Fr. Peter's words are being taken as if this is an issue that could be interpreted according to one's position in life.
Priests should be obedient to their church elders, and that would be the Pope who has explicitly forbidden this. If you think its just us (COC), then think twice, the same rules are for Greek orthodox, Russian orthodox, etc. Their patriarchates have also forbidden this.
Fr. Peter, I have no idea why priests are not vocal about this. They seem to turn a blind eye... and some bishops. This is not wise.
There are some things on this website that are debattable - where we can talk about fasting, and cases where we cannot fast, or opinions on Bible passages.. but if the Pope states something - you cannot just go off and do the exact opposite. I really believe those who do SHOULD BE excommunicated. WITHOUT ANY QUESTION!!!
I think it is also necessary to listen carefully to what His Holiness has written about protestantism..
We, as a traditional and conservative Church, maintain the Apostolic Faith that was once entrusted to us by the saints (Jude 1-3). We do not introduce any innovations in religion, nor do we move an ancient boundary marker set up by our forefathers (Prov.22: 28). The faith of the Church is "one faith" (Eph.4: 5). The Church reminds us every day of this one faith, in a reading we pray in Matins from chapter four of Saint Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians. This one faith is the faith of every member of the Church. Whoever did not believe was isolated by the Church and forbidden to mix with others lest he corrupt their faith. Therefore, our teacher St. John the Evangelist says: "If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds" (2John. 10, 11).
and
Preachers are not entitled to teach their own opinions on the subjects of faith and doctrine but they must teach what is recorded in the Church doctrine entrusted to them. For if the freedom is given to every person to spread his own opinions, we will have differing dogmas and we cannot call this the Church doctrine. Man has freedom of belief but he does not have the freedom to teach according to his own thoughts because heresies sprang from the different schools of teaching.
and
Everyone is free in his belief. But the freedom of belief might divert and turn into heresies and heterodoxies that are exterior to the one faith of the Church. The Church, who has been alert over the faith to maintain it, does not allow this to happen nor does she give the authority of teaching to everyone, but examines the sayings of the teachers against the faith entrusted to the saints.
and
Throughout her history, the Church has been cautious to safeguard the teaching from distortion. Just one wrong teaching of one ex-priest such as Arius, caused two popes, namely, Pope Peter the Seal of the Martyrs and Pope Alexandrus, to intervene.... All this was caused by one priest's error in teaching. There was a danger of his teaching spreading and nobody said: "Leave the matter alone; there is freedom of belief "!
The whole of the book, Comparative Theology, is filled with examples produced by His Holiness of central and important doctrines of the Orthdoxo Faith which are rejected by the protestants. Far too many to recount here. It would be an untruth to say that he supports or endorses protestantism in any sense whatsoever.
We can also note that in 1867, His Holiness Pope Demetrios II excommunicated all those suspected of protestantism. And in our own time clergy have been disciplined and excommunicated for protestantism. A few years ago the Holy Synod issued an instruction forbidding bible studies which were not under the direct control of priests because of this very real danger of the infiltration of protestant ideas. I think this instruction of the Holy Synod has been widely ignored.
We also know that HE Metropolitan Bishoy has spoken out forcefully against protestantism, and of course His Holiness has written about the Heresy of Salvation in a Moment.
It IS a heresy. It is an error, a serious error. How can it be comfortable for any faithful Orthodox Christian to regular attend a meeting where such an error, such a heresy, is propagated, together with the denial of our Most Pure Lady teh Queen of us all and ever Virgin Mary, and the denial of all the saints, and the denial that the Body and Blood of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ are truly upon the altar and are truly received by us, and that baptism truly renews our humanity and unites us with Christ, making us Christians, and that the Holy Spirit truly descends and fills the one who is chrismated. How can it be comfortable for any faithful Orthodox Christian to choose to regularly meet in a context in which all the we love, all that we value, all that we believe, is denied?
This says nothing about whether or not protestants are nice people, or even devout people. Many of them are. May the Lord have mercy on them.
But let me say to the Orthodox Christian - WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN SUCH A PLACE WHERE YOUR FAITH IS DENIED? You are not changing others, rather you yourself are slowly being corrupted.
If a faithful Orthodox Christian turns off the TV when he hears bad language or sees sexually explicit material, then what is a faithful Orthodox Christian doing attending a place where our Mother, the Virgin Mary is denigrated, where our priests are condemned as superstitious, where everything we believe is rejected as the teachings of men?
FLEE FROM SUCH PLACES. YOU SHOULD NOT BE THERE.
When you are mature there may be a time and place, but Orthodox youth should be kept safe and should keep themselves safe. You will not learn Orthodoxy at a protestant meeting - why should you (I am not blaming Protestants, but the Orthodox who choose to attend). But you will become protestantised and it will affect your Orthodox Faith in a negative way.
Let me also post another important and significant statement.
This is the instruction of the Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church, June 6th, 2009.
The Holy Synod agreed to the following recommendations :-
i. Banning all closed and private meetings at any Coptic Orthodox Church as these meetings could be used to disseminate false teachings against the Orthodox faith.
ii. Banning spiritual or educational meetings about faith or Bible study or the like at home, except with a written permission that is clear and of specific objective from HG the Bishop of the diocese.
iii. His Holiness the Pope asked that, their Grace the Bishops are warned against ordaining priests without ascertaining their sound Orthodox faith and ensuring that they are not affected by the Protestant and Pentecostal infiltration attempts.
iv. ... to limit the spread of books that are not sound in terms of the education of the Christian Orthodox faith.
It seems to me that these instructions are clear in their intent, which is to prevent the infiltration of Protestant ideas. The instruction forbids any spiritual or educational meetings about the Christian Faith or for the study of the Bible which are not under the direct oversight of the diocesan bishop.
If it is not permitted to allow such meetings to be organised then it is impossible to see how it is permitted for youth to attend them elsewhere.
This is very clear...
...The Bishops are warned ... sound Orthodox faith ... ensuring that they are not affected by the Protestant and Pentecostal infiltration
I do not understand how such meetings are allowed, or that attendance at them is permitted? How is it justified in the light of this clear Synodal instruction?
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=11053.msg133916#msg133916 date=1300969564] I have read many of the posts here around this discussion of attending Protestant gatherings:
My question to those who would like to attend these meetings. What is that that the Protestants have that the Orthodox Church does not?
Please, everyone desiring to go there should honestly ask himself or herself that question. I see no problem in addressing the answers one by one.
Thanks.
I honestly wrote the same thing, i posted it, and it was considered as spam, and it didnt get published.
I agree.
Believe me, I used to attend a charismatic catholic prayer group, and Church even, and what brought me back to orthodoxy was that not only is this stuff pointless (spiritually), but its incorrect. If this is incorrect, what else is incorrect that these people are preaching as gospel truth???
Well we know that almost everything that protestantism teaches is wrong. This is not to say that many protestants are not sincere, devout and pleasant people. But almost everything that is taught is wrong. Only that which remains from the distant Orthodox roots remains true.
The only truth in Protestantism is Orthodox. Everything else is error.
Protestantism has the idea of protesting. What are they protesting against?
I understand the roots of how the movement started. But, with the spread of Orthodoxy in the Western world, I believe Protestants have a great opportunity to put down their protest and comeback to the Church of Christ.
If I may, a priest in our diocese, with the blessing of our Bishop and the Metropolitan, published a site that dedicated to reach out to heterodox Christians. It originally started out as classes that would take place after Great Vespers, but then the information eventually was posted on the site: www.gettoknowtheoriginal.net. But make sure you have your speakers on, the music on the home page is pretty and speaks to the 'sing-song-ness' of western heterodox (the music was composed by the same priest, who is an incredibly talented musician).
This site may be a great tool for sharing the Orthodox Faith with your heterodox friends, family, and other inquirers. It is very non-threatening and provides them with information that is relevant and causes them to ask some difficult questions of their own faith, all the while not feeling like they're being criticised (I know as a convert to Orthodoxy, I have been and still am a little pushy).
Dear Joseph, I will take a look at the site. Thanks.
The issue here is not so much evangelising protestants but allowing protestantism to be adopted by Orthodox youth and imported into the Church. I think that this aspect of the problem requires firmness even while the encouragement of those showing an interest in Orthodoxy requires gentleness.
You are certainly right, and I should have clarified that to start. It does go back to the clergy, the parents, and the God-Parents taking responsibility for the souls of their children. I see the same problem earlier mentioned: bishops and priests and deacons are not doing enough to combat this, essentially assuming that our faithful are grounded (because let's be honest, a lot of us put on a great front when the bishop, priest, or deacon is around). I suggested the site not as a distraction from the topic at hand, but rather to complement it with an idea like: when your heterodox friend or relative invites you to their service, tell them, 'thank you, however I have a service/prayers/church school that evening, morning, etc.' because between all of the Agpeya and services we should be attending, it really is the case, and then add, 'you're welcome to tag along, too.' And when they ask about your faith (which they will, they always do), you hand them a card (you can get them from that site if contact the priest who runs it: Fr. John Finlay) with the site on it and say, 'come and see.' The faithful need to constantly be affirmed in the Orthodox Faith, because many are just going because, 'I was raised Orthodox,' and they don't have a proper understanding of the Church in terms of the Incarnation. There are reasons why our faithful go to these heterodox meetings, and they need to be addressed by the clergy in love and compassion, and those who know it is wrong need to be encouraging those who do go to these meetings to stay with the Church, and to avoid the dens of the Wolf of Souls. It's a Church-effort to keep our young ones and even some older ones in the fold of the True Faith.
These Coptic Orthodox deacons in my Church who LOVE the tasbeha were complaining that the girls in the Church were going to HTB so much that when they prayed in the Church with them (in the Coptic Orthodox Church), it just got silly.
here's what they said:
"When they'd pray, they wouldnt even let the other person finish.. one girl would say "Oh LORD!!" , and then another would say "Oh Lord.. Please...Lord." and then another would interrupt her and say "Lord, Oh LORD!""
Ouufff!!!
I just wanna grab the entire bunch and just excommunicate them. Really.
Its STUPID. This is how kids pray: here's a prayer that some kid used to pray in Sunday school - he was 10 years old and we still make fun of him today over it:
With nothing in between? Just "Lord, Lord"? Wow. They don't know Matthew 7:21, I take it...? Yikes. Forget silly, that seems dangerous!
I feel bad for those kids, and angry at the leadership that let them slip away without stern warnings and explanations about why Protestantism is not acceptable.
With nothing in between? Just "Lord, Lord"? Wow. They don't know Matthew 7:21, I take it...? Yikes. Forget silly, that seems dangerous!
I feel bad for those kids, and angry at the leadership that let them slip away without stern warnings and explanations about why Protestantism is not acceptable.
Yeah, absolutely NOTHING in between..
like, one girl would say: "Oh Lord! Lord!!! We pray to you to bless. <" - and then another girl would just interrupt her and say :"LORD!! PLEASE BLESS US!!"
I mean, fair enough, her friend wouldn't say "Shut up you silly cow, I wanna go first.. "Lord, Please bless us! and bless me 1st cos I said it first Lord".. OK.. fair enough, but it was honestly along those lines.
Ok.. Look.. forget these crazy girls..
Look at this example:
I went to a Charismatic CATHOLIC prayer meeting OK. So, being catholic they have the Eucharist there, locked up in a safe.
Anyway, the guy speaking or leading the prayer says at the end of the meeting:
"If you came today and confessed, I applaud you and everyone applauds you" (so everyone starts clapping for those who confessed) Then he says: "For those who were ill and have been healed, we applaud you also" (so everyone applauds for those who were ill). "If you've fallen over in the spirit and had the Holy Spirit visit you... " (again everyone applauds)
And then he says the MOST STUPIDEST THING:
"And now, last but not least, let's applaud Jesus Christ" - so they start clapping towards the Holy Body.
This is absurd!!
Its offensive, its wrong, and just plain silly.
If people fall over after having the Holy Spirit "visit" them - then WHAT IS THE POINT of baptism, confirmation and confession? The question remains: is baptism necessary, or is falling over in the spirit a lie? You decide!!
Ughhh...charismatic "Catholicism"...don't get me started...!
I never really experienced that first-hand (in fact, never even heard of it until I found some Catholic websites on the internet) because thankfully my home parish was relatively traditional, at least with regard to worship and music. But then I moved to Oregon and even though it wasn't a "charismatic" community, the mass I went to (before I knew there were other options in town) was SO BAD. They had, instead of a choir or even a soloist with piano (the two options I was familiar with), a JAZZ BAND with drums, guitar, bass, and a "honky-tonk" style piano! It was unbelievably distracting and infuriating, and even worse than just BEING there (which was bad enough), some people would clap for the band after each "performance" (I refuse to call them hymns! I refuse!). I got so fed up with it I complained to the priest there who was also my FOC and he said he agrees but since he was acting under the other, more senior priest, he had to follow his wishes, and the senior priest thought it was good to have such things to attract the young people. This is what I get for going to mass in a college town, I guess.
I always thought to myself when I experienced things like this that if you MUST applaud something during the service (which you absolutely shouldn't, but apparently that's too much for some people), it would make much more sense to applaud the Eucharist. That's a MIRACLE -- the other stuff is just some yahoo with an electric bass guitar and no sense of shame! >:(
Thank God for showing me the way to Orthodoxy where such things (at least in theory!) are so far off the table that very few would ever think to indulge them. I feel bad for the Catholics who think that making their churches virtually identical to the evangelical Protestant churches is going to attract people. They're right, in a way, but the spiritual depth of the people they attract will not make up for the many more that they will lose by embracing novelty and triviality...and I'm not just saying that because I was one of the people who felt pushed away by those tactics. I know many Catholics who feel the same way, but instead of coming to Orthodoxy feel content at Tridentine Mass (Latin/pre-Vatican II reconstructionist) parishes.
Fr. Peter: "Toronto blessing"...? From who, Satan? I've never seen such insanity...and I hope I never see it again!
I gotta admit, that video made me laugh. Anyone else think the 'pastor' on that video sounds like Ned Flanders from the Simpsons? 'Hey diddly-rino neighbor-oo!'
It is a phenomena that has spread around the world and most charismatic Churches have been influenced by it.
It involves mad laughing, rolling on the floor, making noises like animals - all apparently caused by the Holy Spirit!
This is where Protestantism starts going desperately wrong. Beyond just a focus on emotion (which is bad enough), and into real and present spiritual danger.
Nicky Gumbel, from Holy Trinity Brompton, and the man behind the Alpha Course, (a main draw in London for some Coptic youth), says...
I believe it is no coincidence that the present move of the Holy Spirit ('Toronto') has come at the same time as the explosion of the Alpha courses. I think the two go together.
So THIS type of phenomena and the Alpha course go together? I would never run an Alpha course in my church, and this sort of comment is why I absolutely believe that no Orthodox should attend Protestant Churches.
Watch the video again, how can Orthodox Youth have ANYTHING to do with a group that thinks this is the Holy Spirit at work?
Fr, that video is SO disturbing!! And the work of the Holy Spirit makes us walk like dogs?? NEVER!! This is sick to say the least, and this is exactly the stuff that protestants think is from God.
Anyway, let me take off where I left:
So, this charismatic prayer meeting is in Versailles. It started as follows:
Some priest called Fr Silouane came and started a charismatic revival. He targetted the youth. The MOST impressionable group of any organisation.
Fr. Silouane was a protestant, charismatic pastor. He obviously didn't leave his charismatic / protestant tendacies when joining the Catholic church.
Why am I mentioning this for???????
Because the Catholic Church, through the Archbishop of Versailles, has explicilty told Silouane NOT to come to the Church again. He cannot excommunicate him because - he's already started a charismatic revival, and that would mean excommunicating the entire 16 to 30 year old Catholics in that area with him (i.e. Vassula AND her followers).
anyway, he takes off, and he's literally doing his own show. He still attracts 1000's of young catholics that think falling over on the floor is something from the Holy Spirit! That's dumb.
The Catholic Church is STUCK! Its really weakened. You have bishops and archbishops who deplore the charismatic movement and do not know what to do with this nonsense, and in parallel, you have bishops who are speaking jibberish along with their crazy priests thinking that this is a gift of the Holy Spirit.
I don't want us to be like the catholics, and I love them deeply, but this has nothing to do with Christian spirituality.
You think we have a problem with our protestantized youth? Trust me, they have a HUGE issue.
As for the laughing like a crazy indian syndrome - lol... I've seen that also. Do you honestly believe this nonsense!??
But let's learn from them - how did they get into this state:
FATHER SILOUANE! They welcomed charismatic protestants into the Church who didn't leave their charismatic tendencies. They didn't become catholic for its entirety, but became catholic because they felt it lacked in something.
We are not lacking in anything!!
Thank God for excommunication. I suggest we excommunicate these girls and anyone else who brings protestant spirituality into our church.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=11053.msg133955#msg133955 date=1300992551] It is a phenomena that has spread around the world and most charismatic Churches have been influenced by it.
It involves mad laughing, rolling on the floor, making noises like animals - all apparently caused by the Holy Spirit!
This is where Protestantism starts going desperately wrong. Beyond just a focus on emotion (which is bad enough), and into real and present spiritual danger.
Nicky Gumbel, from Holy Trinity Brompton, and the man behind the Alpha Course, (a main draw in London for some Coptic youth), says...
I believe it is no coincidence that the present move of the Holy Spirit ('Toronto') has come at the same time as the explosion of the Alpha courses. I think the two go together.
So THIS type of phenomena and the Alpha course go together? I would never run an Alpha course in my church, and this sort of comment is why I absolutely believe that no Orthodox should attend Protestant Churches.
Watch the video again, how can Orthodox Youth have ANYTHING to do with a group that thinks this is the Holy Spirit at work?
My point is this also Fr. Peter:
Its a few rotten apples that spoil the rest. isn't it? And the same with this movement.
We have a few key players in our Church that are so engaged in HTB, and they are charismatic and popular enough to encourage others to go. (they always talk to me about Nicky Gumbel.. Nicky this, and nicky that...!!)
Coptic Europeans tend to be so open minded - that they give everything a try.
I really think someone ought to talk to these key people. Its that simple. Its not my job to do this!!
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=11053.msg133951#msg133951 date=1300991513] Here is one charismatic service where the so-called 'Toronto Blessing' is manifested...
Very disturbing at the least
I did a group paper on this in my last semester of Bible College, and disturbing, Fr. Peter, is the very least of it, as you said. This is Satanic. I'm reminded of Montanism (mind you, that would be more along the lines of the current Pentecostals, but Toronto Blessing is essentially an exassorbation of it and then some), and even some of Tertullian's ventures in that path before his repentance. I've met people who came out of the TB, and once out they described it as "emotionally stimulated bondage to Satan."
May Christ our God have mercy on them and on us, and may we pray for those in slavery to the Evil One through the TB that the Lord would reveal Himself to them.
If I had not known the organizers of the alpha course myself and seen what they do and heard their points of views on charismatic movements, and SEEN it with my own eyes, I could have been forgiven that all this is just fear-mongering.
But - its not. Not at all.
They really believe that this is the work of the Holy Spirit, and its a sign that you are saved.
So, God the Son, who redeems us to return us back to our original state, wants us to bark like dogs? and fall over like dominoes? and speak nonsense????
The alpha course organizers (and some of them are catholic), agree with charismatic spirituality. They are even advocates of it. In other European countries, I know this to be the case.
Father Peter,
You know me well enough that I hate to see something wrong and do nothing about it. This is doing my head in. What can we do?
1) I DO NOT WANT ALPHA COURSES taught in my church, and I definately do not want ANY liason with HTB nor Nicky Gumbel.
2) I do not want charismatic prayer in my Church, nor speaking in tongues. I do not want people who do this to be Church servants!!!!
3) I do not want guitars in my Church and clapping.. I want Coptic Orthodox hymns... even if sung in English - I don't mind.
How do we get around addressing these issues. Is there NO Bishop who can put things straight!!!!????
Comments
How did she go into the church and do this? I am talking about the first page video. How was she able to bring people with guitars and start to do her songs? My bad tells me that this video is fake, but it's really hard to fake a video unless you photoshop every single frame which is a waste of time since it can sometimes be over ten thousand.
If she goes off and tells a Coptic Christian or priest that she's Greek Orthodox and would like to pray with Coptic Orthodox Christians, then she may have gotten away with it. The priests may not have known her, nor her agenda.
I think the best thing you can all do, like me, is to let others know that she has been excommunicated.
No Orthodox youth should attend protestant meetings. What is taught there is error. It is incomprehensible to me that any Orthodox could want to attend such meetings or be allowed to. This has nothing to do with whether or not protestants will be received into heaven.
It is concerning if you cannot yourself see how far from the truth protestantism is on almost every aspect of our faith, and I say that with much love.
1) The use of "mainline": I'm not entirely sure most people are aware of what this means anymore. I grew up in a mainline denomination, and most people within it didn't know what it meant, either. People seem to take it as a shorthand for "mainstream" (Trinitarian, non-snake handling, etc.), but historically it had to do with the connection of a given church group to a particular community (usually a particular immigrant community).
[quote="wikipedia"]Mainline or mainline Protestant (also sometimes called mainstream) denominations are those that comprised the vast majority of American Christianity from the colonial era until the early 1900s. Most of these denominations were brought to America by their respective historic immigrant groups. Many of these immigrants quickly became affluent and settled, by the time the term "mainline" became attributed to them, in the wealthier suburbs of large Northeastern and Midwestern urban areas. The origins of the term "mainline" lie in this fact, the term is itself borrowed from the "Philadelphia Main Line", a group of affluent suburban communities settled along the Pennsylvania Railroad Main Line immediately outside of Philadelphia. A large portion of the inhabitants of this area belonged to what are now considered "mainline" denominations.
It doesn't really have to do with "mainstream" doctrine or anything like that, or at least it didn't originally. Given that, I'm a little confused when I read that "all mainline Christians can go to heaven", as though there's something particular to Evangelical Lutherans, Methodists, and Presbyterians that can't also be said of other Protestant sects. It seems like a very minor point, but I can't help but wonder how such judgments are made without perhaps as much study into the background of the groups that the well-meaning and loving, but mostly not former-Protestant, Coptic leadership are talking about. When Fr. Peter talks about Protestantism, it is from having lived it and knowing it intimately as an insider! So maybe ex-Protestants' judgments of Protestantism seem a little harsh, but they've seen all the flaws up close.
2) Does the lack of a quote from HH Pope Shenouda III condemning this or that practice really count as evidence in favor of Protestantism in light of the very real danger it can present? I mean...I haven't come across anything in HH's writings that tells me that I shouldn't fly a kite in a thunderstorm, but I still know it's a bad idea to do so! And that is the problem: If everyone takes HH's actions or (lack of) words as their model in this particular case, then they may be ignoring the fact that they are not as spiritually strong as the Pope, and they may fall prey to Protestantism as a result of their misapplication of HH's loving example to their own lives and situations. It may seem strange to read this, but if I were a priest in the Orthodox Church and I had to come up with a rule for every communicant of mine who wanted to go to a Protestant church for some reason, I would say this: Until you can understand why you should not go, you cannot go.
3) "It is my suspicion that the stronger line that some in our Church take towards Christians of other denominations is based more on a fear of our flock being proselytized by eager Protestants rather than on any firm theological position" -- Ya Abouna, this watchfulness (I don't like "fear"; the truth has no fear) against the proselytization of Orthodox youth is entirely reasonable and necessary precisely because of the firm theological position against the error of Protestantism that is itself entirely reasonable, considering the truth of Orthodoxy.
Thank you, Epchois Nai Nan. Please thank your father. It is a blessing to read his words.
There is no problem with asserting that protestants believe error and that God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. What you are proposing is that we must say that since protestants will go to heaven they must believe the truth.
How can this be so!
It would be helpful if you were able to concentrate on what is taught by protestants.
Do you believe it is error or not?
Please respond in regard to:
Baptism
Eucharist
Priesthood
Virgin Mary
Saints
Nature of the Church
Means of Salvation
Chrismation
Interpretation of Scripture
Books of the Bible
Authority of the Fathers
Written prayers
Fasting
Liturgy
Forms of worship
Please respond as to whether you think protestants teach the truth about these things or error. If they teach the truth then our Orthodox Faith is false. If they teach error then how can it be wise, safe or permissible for an Orthodox youth to be placed in a situation where they will be affected by such teachings?
Unfortunately, in this case, His Holiness Pope Shenouda has made it absolutely clear that Coptic orthodox Christians are NOT allowed to attend protestant prayer meetings, or gatherings. Friendship is fine.
In fact, if I paraphrase my FoC - he actually goes to the point of saying: "H.H said - if you go there, do not come back."
Its that serious.
This is not a question for debate. I have no idea why Fr. Peter's words are being taken as if this is an issue that could be interpreted according to one's position in life.
Priests should be obedient to their church elders, and that would be the Pope who has explicitly forbidden this. If you think its just us (COC), then think twice, the same rules are for Greek orthodox, Russian orthodox, etc.
Their patriarchates have also forbidden this.
Fr. Peter, I have no idea why priests are not vocal about this. They seem to turn a blind eye... and some bishops. This is not wise.
There are some things on this website that are debattable - where we can talk about fasting, and cases where we cannot fast, or opinions on Bible passages.. but if the Pope states something - you cannot just go off and do the exact opposite. I really believe those who do SHOULD BE excommunicated. WITHOUT ANY QUESTION!!!
We, as a traditional and conservative Church, maintain the Apostolic Faith that was once entrusted to us by the saints (Jude 1-3). We do not introduce any innovations in religion, nor do we move an ancient boundary marker set up by
our forefathers (Prov.22: 28). The faith of the Church is "one faith" (Eph.4: 5). The Church reminds us every day of this one faith, in a reading we pray in Matins from chapter four of Saint Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians. This one faith is the faith of every member of the Church. Whoever did not believe was isolated by the Church and forbidden to mix with others lest he corrupt their faith. Therefore, our teacher St. John the Evangelist says: "If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds" (2John. 10, 11).
and
Preachers are not entitled to teach their own opinions on the subjects of faith and doctrine but they must teach what is recorded in the Church doctrine entrusted to them. For if the freedom is given to every person to spread his own opinions, we will have differing dogmas and we cannot call this the Church doctrine. Man has freedom of belief but he does not have the freedom to teach according to his own thoughts because heresies sprang from the different schools of teaching.
and
Everyone is free in his belief. But the freedom of belief might divert and turn into heresies and heterodoxies that are exterior to the one faith of the Church. The Church, who has been alert over the faith to maintain it, does not allow this to happen nor does she give the authority of teaching to everyone, but examines the sayings of the teachers against the faith entrusted to the saints.
and
Throughout her history, the Church has been cautious to safeguard the teaching from distortion. Just one wrong teaching of one ex-priest such as Arius, caused two popes, namely, Pope Peter the Seal of the Martyrs and Pope Alexandrus, to intervene.... All this was caused by one priest's error in teaching. There was a danger of his teaching spreading and nobody said: "Leave the matter alone; there is freedom of belief "!
The whole of the book, Comparative Theology, is filled with examples produced by His Holiness of central and important doctrines of the Orthdoxo Faith which are rejected by the protestants. Far too many to recount here. It would be an untruth to say that he supports or endorses protestantism in any sense whatsoever.
We can also note that in 1867, His Holiness Pope Demetrios II excommunicated all those suspected of protestantism. And in our own time clergy have been disciplined and excommunicated for protestantism. A few years ago the Holy Synod issued an instruction forbidding bible studies which were not under the direct control of priests because of this very real danger of the infiltration of protestant ideas. I think this instruction of the Holy Synod has been widely ignored.
We also know that HE Metropolitan Bishoy has spoken out forcefully against protestantism, and of course His Holiness has written about the Heresy of Salvation in a Moment.
It IS a heresy. It is an error, a serious error. How can it be comfortable for any faithful Orthodox Christian to regular attend a meeting where such an error, such a heresy, is propagated, together with the denial of our Most Pure Lady teh Queen of us all and ever Virgin Mary, and the denial of all the saints, and the denial that the Body and Blood of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ are truly upon the altar and are truly received by us, and that baptism truly renews our humanity and unites us with Christ, making us Christians, and that the Holy Spirit truly descends and fills the one who is chrismated. How can it be comfortable for any faithful Orthodox Christian to choose to regularly meet in a context in which all the we love, all that we value, all that we believe, is denied?
This says nothing about whether or not protestants are nice people, or even devout people. Many of them are. May the Lord have mercy on them.
But let me say to the Orthodox Christian - WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN SUCH A PLACE WHERE YOUR FAITH IS DENIED? You are not changing others, rather you yourself are slowly being corrupted.
If a faithful Orthodox Christian turns off the TV when he hears bad language or sees sexually explicit material, then what is a faithful Orthodox Christian doing attending a place where our Mother, the Virgin Mary is denigrated, where our priests are condemned as superstitious, where everything we believe is rejected as the teachings of men?
FLEE FROM SUCH PLACES. YOU SHOULD NOT BE THERE.
When you are mature there may be a time and place, but Orthodox youth should be kept safe and should keep themselves safe. You will not learn Orthodoxy at a protestant meeting - why should you (I am not blaming Protestants, but the Orthodox who choose to attend). But you will become protestantised and it will affect your Orthodox Faith in a negative way.
This is the instruction of the Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church, June 6th, 2009.
The Holy Synod agreed to the following recommendations :-
i. Banning all closed and private meetings at any Coptic Orthodox Church as these meetings could be used to disseminate false teachings against the Orthodox faith.
ii. Banning spiritual or educational meetings about faith or Bible study or the like at home, except with a written permission that is clear and of specific objective from HG the Bishop of the diocese.
iii. His Holiness the Pope asked that, their Grace the Bishops are warned against ordaining priests without ascertaining their sound Orthodox faith and ensuring that they are not affected by the Protestant and Pentecostal infiltration attempts.
iv. ... to limit the spread of books that are not sound in terms of the education of the Christian Orthodox faith.
It seems to me that these instructions are clear in their intent, which is to prevent the infiltration of Protestant ideas. The instruction forbids any spiritual or educational meetings about the Christian Faith or for the study of the Bible which are not under the direct oversight of the diocesan bishop.
If it is not permitted to allow such meetings to be organised then it is impossible to see how it is permitted for youth to attend them elsewhere.
This is very clear...
...The Bishops are warned ... sound Orthodox faith ... ensuring that they are not affected by the Protestant and Pentecostal infiltration
I do not understand how such meetings are allowed, or that attendance at them is permitted? How is it justified in the light of this clear Synodal instruction?
Father Peter
My question to those who would like to attend these meetings. What is that that the Protestants have that the Orthodox Church does not?
Please, everyone desiring to go there should honestly ask himself or herself that question. I see no problem in addressing the answers one by one.
Thanks.
I have read many of the posts here around this discussion of attending Protestant gatherings:
My question to those who would like to attend these meetings. What is that that the Protestants have that the Orthodox Church does not?
Please, everyone desiring to go there should honestly ask himself or herself that question. I see no problem in addressing the answers one by one.
Thanks.
I honestly wrote the same thing, i posted it, and it was considered as spam, and it didnt get published.
I agree.
Believe me, I used to attend a charismatic catholic prayer group, and Church even, and what brought me back to orthodoxy was that not only is this stuff pointless (spiritually), but its incorrect.
If this is incorrect, what else is incorrect that these people are preaching as gospel truth???
The only truth in Protestantism is Orthodox. Everything else is error.
I understand the roots of how the movement started. But, with the spread of Orthodoxy in the Western world, I believe Protestants have a great opportunity to put down their protest and comeback to the Church of Christ.
Thanks
This site may be a great tool for sharing the Orthodox Faith with your heterodox friends, family, and other inquirers. It is very non-threatening and provides them with information that is relevant and causes them to ask some difficult questions of their own faith, all the while not feeling like they're being criticised (I know as a convert to Orthodoxy, I have been and still am a little pushy).
I hope this helps.
The issue here is not so much evangelising protestants but allowing protestantism to be adopted by Orthodox youth and imported into the Church. I think that this aspect of the problem requires firmness even while the encouragement of those showing an interest in Orthodoxy requires gentleness.
You are certainly right, and I should have clarified that to start. It does go back to the clergy, the parents, and the God-Parents taking responsibility for the souls of their children. I see the same problem earlier mentioned: bishops and priests and deacons are not doing enough to combat this, essentially assuming that our faithful are grounded (because let's be honest, a lot of us put on a great front when the bishop, priest, or deacon is around).
I suggested the site not as a distraction from the topic at hand, but rather to complement it with an idea like: when your heterodox friend or relative invites you to their service, tell them, 'thank you, however I have a service/prayers/church school that evening, morning, etc.' because between all of the Agpeya and services we should be attending, it really is the case, and then add, 'you're welcome to tag along, too.' And when they ask about your faith (which they will, they always do), you hand them a card (you can get them from that site if contact the priest who runs it: Fr. John Finlay) with the site on it and say, 'come and see.'
The faithful need to constantly be affirmed in the Orthodox Faith, because many are just going because, 'I was raised Orthodox,' and they don't have a proper understanding of the Church in terms of the Incarnation. There are reasons why our faithful go to these heterodox meetings, and they need to be addressed by the clergy in love and compassion, and those who know it is wrong need to be encouraging those who do go to these meetings to stay with the Church, and to avoid the dens of the Wolf of Souls. It's a Church-effort to keep our young ones and even some older ones in the fold of the True Faith.
These Coptic Orthodox deacons in my Church who LOVE the tasbeha were complaining that the girls in the Church were going to HTB so much that when they prayed in the Church with them (in the Coptic Orthodox Church), it just got silly.
here's what they said:
"When they'd pray, they wouldnt even let the other person finish.. one girl would say "Oh LORD!!" , and then another would say "Oh Lord.. Please...Lord." and then another would interrupt her and say "Lord, Oh LORD!""
Ouufff!!!
I just wanna grab the entire bunch and just excommunicate them. Really.
Its STUPID. This is how kids pray: here's a prayer that some kid used to pray in Sunday school - he was 10 years old and we still make fun of him today over it:
"Oh Lord, dear Lord, oh Lord. Lord!! Lord O Lord!! Ohh Lord... Lord.
Lord, please Lord, Oh Lord... PLEASE?! Lord.. Lord...
Oooooooooooooooooooooooooo OOOOooooo Lord. Lord oh Lord, Lord...
Amen"
What a silly prayer. What a silly spirituality. Really!! I mean this. This is ridiculous.
With nothing in between? Just "Lord, Lord"? Wow. They don't know Matthew 7:21, I take it...? Yikes. Forget silly, that seems dangerous!
I feel bad for those kids, and angry at the leadership that let them slip away without stern warnings and explanations about why Protestantism is not acceptable.
???
With nothing in between? Just "Lord, Lord"? Wow. They don't know Matthew 7:21, I take it...? Yikes. Forget silly, that seems dangerous!
I feel bad for those kids, and angry at the leadership that let them slip away without stern warnings and explanations about why Protestantism is not acceptable.
Yeah, absolutely NOTHING in between..
like, one girl would say: "Oh Lord! Lord!!! We pray to you to bless. <" - and then another girl would just interrupt her and say :"LORD!! PLEASE BLESS US!!"
I mean, fair enough, her friend wouldn't say "Shut up you silly cow, I wanna go first.. "Lord, Please bless us! and bless me 1st cos I said it first Lord".. OK.. fair enough, but it was honestly along those lines.
Ok.. Look.. forget these crazy girls..
Look at this example:
I went to a Charismatic CATHOLIC prayer meeting OK. So, being catholic they have the Eucharist there, locked up in a safe.
Anyway, the guy speaking or leading the prayer says at the end of the meeting:
"If you came today and confessed, I applaud you and everyone applauds you" (so everyone starts clapping for those who confessed)
Then he says:
"For those who were ill and have been healed, we applaud you also" (so everyone applauds for those who were ill).
"If you've fallen over in the spirit and had the Holy Spirit visit you... " (again everyone applauds)
And then he says the MOST STUPIDEST THING:
"And now, last but not least, let's applaud Jesus Christ" - so they start clapping towards the Holy Body.
This is absurd!!
Its offensive, its wrong, and just plain silly.
If people fall over after having the Holy Spirit "visit" them - then WHAT IS THE POINT of baptism, confirmation and confession? The question remains: is baptism necessary, or is falling over in the spirit a lie? You decide!!
Very disturbing at the least
I never really experienced that first-hand (in fact, never even heard of it until I found some Catholic websites on the internet) because thankfully my home parish was relatively traditional, at least with regard to worship and music. But then I moved to Oregon and even though it wasn't a "charismatic" community, the mass I went to (before I knew there were other options in town) was SO BAD. They had, instead of a choir or even a soloist with piano (the two options I was familiar with), a JAZZ BAND with drums, guitar, bass, and a "honky-tonk" style piano! It was unbelievably distracting and infuriating, and even worse than just BEING there (which was bad enough), some people would clap for the band after each "performance" (I refuse to call them hymns! I refuse!). I got so fed up with it I complained to the priest there who was also my FOC and he said he agrees but since he was acting under the other, more senior priest, he had to follow his wishes, and the senior priest thought it was good to have such things to attract the young people. This is what I get for going to mass in a college town, I guess.
I always thought to myself when I experienced things like this that if you MUST applaud something during the service (which you absolutely shouldn't, but apparently that's too much for some people), it would make much more sense to applaud the Eucharist. That's a MIRACLE -- the other stuff is just some yahoo with an electric bass guitar and no sense of shame! >:(
Thank God for showing me the way to Orthodoxy where such things (at least in theory!) are so far off the table that very few would ever think to indulge them. I feel bad for the Catholics who think that making their churches virtually identical to the evangelical Protestant churches is going to attract people. They're right, in a way, but the spiritual depth of the people they attract will not make up for the many more that they will lose by embracing novelty and triviality...and I'm not just saying that because I was one of the people who felt pushed away by those tactics. I know many Catholics who feel the same way, but instead of coming to Orthodoxy feel content at Tridentine Mass (Latin/pre-Vatican II reconstructionist) parishes.
Fr. Peter: "Toronto blessing"...? From who, Satan? I've never seen such insanity...and I hope I never see it again!
I gotta admit, that video made me laugh. Anyone else think the 'pastor' on that video sounds like Ned Flanders from the Simpsons? 'Hey diddly-rino neighbor-oo!'
It involves mad laughing, rolling on the floor, making noises like animals - all apparently caused by the Holy Spirit!
This is where Protestantism starts going desperately wrong. Beyond just a focus on emotion (which is bad enough), and into real and present spiritual danger.
Nicky Gumbel, from Holy Trinity Brompton, and the man behind the Alpha Course, (a main draw in London for some Coptic youth), says...
I believe it is no coincidence that the present move of the Holy Spirit ('Toronto') has come at the same time as the explosion of the Alpha courses. I think the two go together.
So THIS type of phenomena and the Alpha course go together? I would never run an Alpha course in my church, and this sort of comment is why I absolutely believe that no Orthodox should attend Protestant Churches.
Watch the video again, how can Orthodox Youth have ANYTHING to do with a group that thinks this is the Holy Spirit at work?
This is sick to say the least, and this is exactly the stuff that protestants think is from God.
Anyway, let me take off where I left:
So, this charismatic prayer meeting is in Versailles. It started as follows:
Some priest called Fr Silouane came and started a charismatic revival. He targetted the youth. The MOST impressionable group of any organisation.
Fr. Silouane was a protestant, charismatic pastor. He obviously didn't leave his charismatic / protestant tendacies when joining the Catholic church.
Why am I mentioning this for???????
Because the Catholic Church, through the Archbishop of Versailles, has explicilty told Silouane NOT to come to the Church again. He cannot excommunicate him because - he's already started a charismatic revival, and that would mean excommunicating the entire 16 to 30 year old Catholics in that area with him (i.e. Vassula AND her followers).
anyway, he takes off, and he's literally doing his own show. He still attracts 1000's of young catholics that think falling over on the floor is something from the Holy Spirit! That's dumb.
The Catholic Church is STUCK! Its really weakened. You have bishops and archbishops who deplore the charismatic movement and do not know what to do with this nonsense, and in parallel, you have bishops who are speaking jibberish along with their crazy priests thinking that this is a gift of the Holy Spirit.
I don't want us to be like the catholics, and I love them deeply, but this has nothing to do with Christian spirituality.
You think we have a problem with our protestantized youth? Trust me, they have a HUGE issue.
As for the laughing like a crazy indian syndrome - lol... I've seen that also. Do you honestly believe this nonsense!??
But let's learn from them - how did they get into this state:
FATHER SILOUANE! They welcomed charismatic protestants into the Church who didn't leave their charismatic tendencies. They didn't become catholic for its entirety, but became catholic because they felt it lacked in something.
We are not lacking in anything!!
Thank God for excommunication. I suggest we excommunicate these girls and anyone else who brings protestant spirituality into our church.
It is a phenomena that has spread around the world and most charismatic Churches have been influenced by it.
It involves mad laughing, rolling on the floor, making noises like animals - all apparently caused by the Holy Spirit!
This is where Protestantism starts going desperately wrong. Beyond just a focus on emotion (which is bad enough), and into real and present spiritual danger.
Nicky Gumbel, from Holy Trinity Brompton, and the man behind the Alpha Course, (a main draw in London for some Coptic youth), says...
I believe it is no coincidence that the present move of the Holy Spirit ('Toronto') has come at the same time as the explosion of the Alpha courses. I think the two go together.
So THIS type of phenomena and the Alpha course go together? I would never run an Alpha course in my church, and this sort of comment is why I absolutely believe that no Orthodox should attend Protestant Churches.
Watch the video again, how can Orthodox Youth have ANYTHING to do with a group that thinks this is the Holy Spirit at work?
My point is this also Fr. Peter:
Its a few rotten apples that spoil the rest. isn't it?
And the same with this movement.
We have a few key players in our Church that are so engaged in HTB, and they are charismatic and popular enough to encourage others to go. (they always talk to me about Nicky Gumbel.. Nicky this, and nicky that...!!)
Coptic Europeans tend to be so open minded - that they give everything a try.
I really think someone ought to talk to these key people. Its that simple. Its not my job to do this!!
Here is one charismatic service where the so-called 'Toronto Blessing' is manifested...
Very disturbing at the least
I did a group paper on this in my last semester of Bible College, and disturbing, Fr. Peter, is the very least of it, as you said. This is Satanic. I'm reminded of Montanism (mind you, that would be more along the lines of the current Pentecostals, but Toronto Blessing is essentially an exassorbation of it and then some), and even some of Tertullian's ventures in that path before his repentance. I've met people who came out of the TB, and once out they described it as "emotionally stimulated bondage to Satan."
May Christ our God have mercy on them and on us, and may we pray for those in slavery to the Evil One through the TB that the Lord would reveal Himself to them.
But - its not. Not at all.
They really believe that this is the work of the Holy Spirit, and its a sign that you are saved.
So, God the Son, who redeems us to return us back to our original state, wants us to bark like dogs? and fall over like dominoes? and speak nonsense????
The alpha course organizers (and some of them are catholic), agree with charismatic spirituality. They are even advocates of it. In other European countries, I know this to be the case.
Father Peter,
You know me well enough that I hate to see something wrong and do nothing about it. This is doing my head in. What can we do?
1) I DO NOT WANT ALPHA COURSES taught in my church, and I definately do not want ANY liason with HTB nor Nicky Gumbel.
2) I do not want charismatic prayer in my Church, nor speaking in tongues. I do not want people who do this to be Church servants!!!!
3) I do not want guitars in my Church and clapping.. I want Coptic Orthodox hymns... even if sung in English - I don't mind.
How do we get around addressing these issues. Is there NO Bishop who can put things straight!!!!????