[quote author=Hos Erof link=board=1;threadid=132;start=150#msg23758 date=1113663115] u missed the point :P it's not bout complaining, i didnt say it's hard work, but it sometimes can be distractive, so i'm just pointing out that it's a problem u dont have to cope with
it's true bout it being an honor, but u never hear a guy complain bout only women being able to bare children, what bout that being a great honor?? Both men and women have their share in the service and life in general, i dont see the problem.
So that means that our great honor is to bear children ::). Well what about the women who don't want to bear children or are not capable of that. You know bearing children isn't that much of an honor cuz all the pain that we have to go through >:(. Thats why men never complain about that ::).
Is the whole point of life for woman is to bear children :-\?
i think it's quite an honor to bear a child 9 months, and have a unique bond with it, and feel it grow inside u. It's not the only thing women are made for of course ::) it's just an example to point out that there's things that only women can do, and men dont complain bout not being able to do the same. Anywyz, this discussion isn't going to end lol, my conclusion is that we just have to be happy with our position, and be gratefull that we are raised as christians and can attend liturgy whenever we want :)
[quote author=Hos Erof link=board=1;threadid=132;start=150#msg23765 date=1113672646] i think it's quite an honor to bear a child 9 months, and have a unique bond with it, and feel it grow inside u. It's not the only thing women are made for of course ::) it's just an example to point out that there's things that only women can do, and men dont complain bout not being able to do the same. Anywyz, this discussion isn't going to end lol, my conclusion is that we just have to be happy with our position, and be gratefull that we are raised as christians and can attend liturgy whenever we want :)
I guess ur right in a way U know that this subject has been faught against for centuries so I kinda dought talking about it will change anything. Well u know what, I kinda started to except it cuz the more u know or the higher position ur in, the more God will judge. Good Luck deacons :P
[quote author=Hos Erof link=board=1;threadid=132;start=150#msg23758 date=1113663115] u missed the point :P it's not bout complaining, i didnt say it's hard work, but it sometimes can be distractive, so i'm just pointing out that it's a problem u dont have to cope with
it's true bout it being an honor, but u never hear a guy complain bout only women being able to bare children, what bout that being a great honor?? Both men and women have their share in the service and life in general, i dont see the problem.
I thought i might post this reponse that my Priest from my parish, reguarding a question: "i feel the focus on Passion week is purely on men. So my question is what role do women play in passion week and the Easter in general."
This the response my parish priest gave..
The role of women in the Church is a big issue in Christian Churches today. Unfortunately, I fear that it is mostly approached from a very secular (world-minded rather than spiritually-minded) perspective. But you cannot really bring the secular perspective into the life of the Church without doing a great deal of damage to it.
First, Generally: Participation in our Coptic Orthodox Church has always been God-centred, not human-centred, and based on love and humility. In simpler words: I come to Church to know God better, experience His presence and love Him more. This is a deeply personal experience that has nothing whatsoever to do with my gender and is open equally to all. However, in order for the services to run, we need someone to actually carry them out. Hence the clergy and the deacons. Now here's the difference:
In a theatrical group, you might get arguments or jealousies over who gets to play Macbeth and who just gets to be a tree. But the purpose of a Church service is different. I'm not there to have someone come up after and say to me. "Wow, great performance tonight. I was really impressed!" I'm there to get closer to God, not to put on a performance. Personally, I find this much easier to do when I can just stand quietly in a corner and focus and concentrate. Having to walk here and say this and do that is actually a hindrance to my concentration on God. Looked at from this perspective, one should feel pity for those who have to do the 'work' that the rest may enjoy!
Another example of this is the ordination to priesthood. We are one of the few Churches where a person does not choose priesthood as a vocation for himself, but God chooses him through the Bishop or the congregation. If you read HH's book, the "Release of the Spirit", especially the chapter entitled "Poor Men", you'll understand why - it is a huge burden of responsibility and often priests will complain in their early years that their spiritual life has actually gone downhill rather than up. A person would have to be crazy to actually WANT to be a priest!This is again because of our perspective on service as something that someone has to do for the benefit of others, but that ideally, we would wish to be allowed to just quietly focus on God without distractions.
Secondly, Passion Week and Easter: I think you can see where the above words are heading. When I was a layman/deacon, I would delight in Passion Week, always taking the whole week off and finding a quiet corner snuggled up with my Pascha Book and hoping and praying that no one would notice me and call me to come up and do a reading or something. I know it's selfish, but hey - Passion week only comes once a year and there were heaps of readers and deacons better than me anyway. it was spectacular! Fast forward - I was ordained a priest. Now I had to sit there during Passion Week and think about who's going to read what, and will we finish on time, and that deacon got the tune of the psalm a bit mixed up and... It is was terrible! Gradually of course, you learn the art of delegation and to shut out all these things for periods of time, but it always makes it an extra struggle to enjoy the Passion Week. Blessed are they who can just sit in quiet obscurity and let their hearts roam with Christ through His last days on earth!
As I understand it, Passion week is focussed not on men, but on Christ. It is just that the men (clergy and deacons specifically) have been lumped with the responsibility of facilitating the prayers of the rest of the congregation. The congregation should by all means participate, as Mary so beautifully described. Join your voice to the rest during the communal hymns (how beautiful an experience when the whole Church reverberates with hundreds of voices in unison!) but above all, lift up your heart to be with God, thankful that He has limited your distractions and remember to pray for the 'poor men' who have to 'work' during Passion Week!
I like that article cuz it made me think a liitle more about being a deacon. I guess I should feel bad for all these "poor men/deacons". I kinda didn't get that message from Hos Erof, no offence. But still I dougt that one of the reasons why women can't be deacon is because our monthly cycle :-\. Thats just stupid. No offence again.
;) :Dthanx shnoods WOWOWOWOWOWO that helped me alot as it must b hard to pray and say at the same tym i thank God 4 wat i am and wat i do anyway thnx agen shnoods u rok :);):D ;D :-*:-*
Comments
u missed the point :P
it's not bout complaining, i didnt say it's hard work, but it sometimes can be distractive, so i'm just pointing out that it's a problem u dont have to cope with
it's true bout it being an honor, but u never hear a guy complain bout only women being able to bare children, what bout that being a great honor?? Both men and women have their share in the service and life in general, i dont see the problem.
So that means that our great honor is to bear children ::). Well what about the women who don't want to bear children or are not capable of that. You know bearing children isn't that much of an honor cuz all the pain that we have to go through >:(. Thats why men never complain about that ::).
Is the whole point of life for woman is to bear children :-\?
it's just an example to point out that there's things that only women can do, and men dont complain bout not being able to do the same. Anywyz, this discussion isn't going to end lol, my conclusion is that we just have to be happy with our position, and be gratefull that we are raised as christians and can attend liturgy whenever we want :)
i think it's quite an honor to bear a child 9 months, and have a unique bond with it, and feel it grow inside u. It's not the only thing women are made for of course ::)
it's just an example to point out that there's things that only women can do, and men dont complain bout not being able to do the same. Anywyz, this discussion isn't going to end lol, my conclusion is that we just have to be happy with our position, and be gratefull that we are raised as christians and can attend liturgy whenever we want :)
I guess ur right in a way
U know that this subject has been faught against for centuries so I kinda dought talking about it will change anything. Well u know what, I kinda started to except it cuz the more u know or the higher position ur in, the more God will judge. Good Luck deacons :P
u missed the point :P
it's not bout complaining, i didnt say it's hard work, but it sometimes can be distractive, so i'm just pointing out that it's a problem u dont have to cope with
it's true bout it being an honor, but u never hear a guy complain bout only women being able to bare children, what bout that being a great honor?? Both men and women have their share in the service and life in general, i dont see the problem.
psh, you're just a macho man and you know it :P
jk lol
i'm the biggest wimp ;D
"i feel the focus on Passion week is purely on men.
So my question is what role do women play in passion week and the Easter in general."
This the response my parish priest gave..
The role of women in the Church is a big issue in Christian Churches today. Unfortunately, I fear that it is mostly approached from a very secular (world-minded rather than spiritually-minded) perspective. But you cannot really bring the secular perspective into the life of the Church without doing a great deal of damage to it.
First, Generally:
Participation in our Coptic Orthodox Church has always been God-centred, not human-centred, and based on love and humility. In simpler words: I come to Church to know God better, experience His presence and love Him more. This is a deeply personal experience that has nothing whatsoever to do with my gender and is open equally to all. However, in order for the services to run, we need someone to actually carry them out. Hence the clergy and the deacons. Now here's the difference:
In a theatrical group, you might get arguments or jealousies over who gets to play Macbeth and who just gets to be a tree. But the purpose of a Church service is different. I'm not there to have someone come up after and say to me. "Wow, great performance tonight. I was really impressed!" I'm there to get closer to God, not to put on a performance. Personally, I find this much easier to do when I can just stand quietly in a corner and focus and concentrate. Having to walk here and say this and do that is actually a hindrance to my concentration on God. Looked at from this perspective, one should feel pity for those who have to do the 'work' that the rest may enjoy!
Another example of this is the ordination to priesthood. We are one of the few Churches where a person does not choose priesthood as a vocation for himself, but God chooses him through the Bishop or the congregation. If you read HH's book, the "Release of the Spirit", especially the chapter entitled "Poor Men", you'll understand why - it is a huge burden of responsibility and often priests will complain in their early years that their spiritual life has actually gone downhill rather than up. A person would have to be crazy to actually WANT to be a priest!This is again because of our perspective on service as something that someone has to do for the benefit of others, but that ideally, we would wish to be allowed to just quietly focus on God without distractions.
Secondly, Passion Week and Easter:
I think you can see where the above words are heading. When I was a layman/deacon, I would delight in Passion Week, always taking the whole week off and finding a quiet corner snuggled up with my Pascha Book and hoping and praying that no one would notice me and call me to come up and do a reading or something. I know it's selfish, but hey - Passion week only comes once a year and there were heaps of readers and deacons better than me anyway. it was spectacular! Fast forward - I was ordained a priest. Now I had to sit there during Passion Week and think about who's going to read what, and will we finish on time, and that deacon got the tune of the psalm a bit mixed up and... It is was terrible! Gradually of course, you learn the art of delegation and to shut out all these things for periods of time, but it always makes it an extra struggle to enjoy the Passion Week. Blessed are they who can just sit in quiet obscurity and let their hearts roam with Christ through His last days on earth!
As I understand it, Passion week is focussed not on men, but on Christ. It is just that the men (clergy and deacons specifically) have been lumped with the responsibility of facilitating the prayers of the rest of the congregation. The congregation should by all means participate, as Mary so beautifully described. Join your voice to the rest during the communal hymns (how beautiful an experience when the whole Church reverberates with hundreds of voices in unison!) but above all, lift up your heart to be with God, thankful that He has limited your distractions and remember to pray for the 'poor men' who have to 'work' during Passion Week!
I would love to hear your feedback on this issue.
Fr Antonios
thnx shnoods for the great article
I guess I should feel bad for all these "poor men/deacons". I kinda didn't get that message from Hos Erof, no offence.
But still I dougt that one of the reasons why women can't be deacon is because our monthly cycle :-\. Thats just stupid. No offence again.
that helped me alot as it must b hard to pray and say at the same tym
i thank God 4 wat i am and wat i do anyway
thnx agen shnoods u rok :) ;) :D ;D :-* :-*
GB ALL
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