[quote author=MarMar91 link=board=1;threadid=132;start=0#msg475 date=1080559013] Ever since i was little,I always wanted to go in the Hekal(and i did, chasing my brother, and got in trouble), anyway, so I'm just wondering why men can be deacons and married and everything and women can't. I think maybe it has to do with Jesus' disciples being men, I'm not sure though. Like i've heard of deaconesses, and I want to know more about them. I think you have to be Widowed to be a deaconess, or not get married. Can someone who knows anything about this topic please post an answer. I mean, why is it so bad if a GIRL sings one of the psalms during Pascha Week?/? Please bring me information. It has always bothered me a lot, like there was something wrong here. Thanks, God Bless you guys and girls.
Saint paul said in corinthians 11. he said that the head of woman is the man and the head of man is christ and the head of christ is Lord Jesus. there are alot of shamseen who are gurls. however they do not serve in the altar but they have other duties. Again the women can serve and be a sunday school teachers, but they can not serve in the altar because when God came he was a man not a woman. plus this is part of our tradition.
Basically....and anyway, it's also because when Jesus appointed apostles, ther weren't any women among them, and the tradition carried on. It has nothing to do with being after the men or Jesus being a man, but because we go by tradition, and tradition has been caried on my men. Wasim, that's nothing to gloat about...we have our own special rights as well, so don't go counting your chickens before they hatch....lol
We need to look at serving at the altar in its proper context. God gave men the right to serve at the altar because of the defined roles He has assigned men and women. Its not a statement that women are unworthy or unable or not good enough but its simply because they're not called to it. H.G. Anba Angalos has a great surmon on this on coptichymns.net...
I pray that as I approach this answer from an Orthodox position, it might bring clarity to the issue of female 'diaconates'. Research in the Orthodox history has revealed the following:
First of the early women deacons: Sts. Triphena, Phoebe & Tabitha.
According to Bartholomew 1, Archbishop of Constantinopole, New Rome & Ecumenical Patriach : "As is known, the Ecumenical Patriarchate organized about 15 years ago a special conferencein Rhodes to explore the unique role of women in the Orthodox Church. In 1997 we hosted at the Phanar an inter-Orthodox conference with the participation of women, whom we exhorted to make a thorough examination of this expression of diaknoai. We reminded them at the same time that the institution of deaconesses is an indisputable part of our tradition reaching back to the primitive Church.'
THE DIACONATE & "MINOR ORDERS"
"The apostolic order of deaconesses should be reviewed. It was never altogether abandoned in the Orthodox Church though it has tended to fall into disuse. There is ample evidence, from apostolic times, from the patristic, canonical and liturgical tradition, well into the Byzantine period that this order was held in high honor.
The deaconess was ordained within the sanctuary during the Divine Liturgy with two prayers, she received the Orarion (the deacon's stole) and received Holy Communion at the Altar.
The revival of this ancient order should be envisaged on the basis of the ancient prototypes testified to in many sources and with the prayers found in the Aostolic Constitutions and the ancient Byzantine liturgical books.
The revival of women deacons in the Orthodox Church would emphasize in a special way the dianity of women and give recognition to her contribution to the work of theChurch as a whole."
Ths history of the Church clearly indicates women deacons were ordained ministers of the Orthodox Church, and authorized b y their bishops to engage in a number of different activities which expressed the Church's mission to lead persons to salvation in Christ.
First: Women deacons frequently had a dynamic, evangelical ministry of teaching the Christian faith to others. Because of their gift of discernment, many deaconesses were renowed as spiritual mothers. Their intercession, advice, and guidance were sought by both women & men, even ranking members of the cergy.
Second: A number of women deacons had an evangelical ministry in the area of what would be called today pastoral care & social work. Among their responsibilities, some women deacons devoted their efforts to helping provide food and & shelter for the poor.
Third: Women deacons would also bring Holy Communion to those members of the community who were unable to participate in the Divine Liturgy and would offer prayer and comfort to those in need.
The Apostolic Constitutions tell of church practices both before & after Nicea where the deaconess is mentioned after the deacon and before the subdeacon. The iposition of hands by the bishop is spoken of as the accepted method of making deconesses. A prayer from the Constituion is embodied into someof the modern admission rites:
"Concerning Deaconesses...O Bishop, thou shalt lay thy hands upon her, with the Presbytery and the Deacons and Deaconesses standing by; and thou shalt say: 'Eternal God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Creator of man and woman, that didst fill with the spirit Mary and Deborah, and Anna and Hulda, that didst not disdain that thine only begotten Son should be born of a woman; thou that in the tabernacle of witness and in the temple didst appoint the women guardians of the holy gates: Do thou look on this thy handmaid, which is appointed unto ministry (eis diakonian); and grant unto her the Holy Spirit, and cleanse her froim all pollution of flesh and the spirit, that she may worthily accomplish the work committed unt her, to thy glory and the praise of thy Christ, with whom to thee and the Holy Spirit be glory and worship world without end Amen"
St. John Chrysostom, bishop of Constantinopole, spoke out eloquently against the sins of the emperor and the moral laxity of clergy and laity alike that he was forced to flee into exile. There were 40-deaconesses on the staff of the cathedral of St. Sophia and they helped the bishop to escape. Deaconesses were considered member of the clergy in both civil & ecclesiastical law.
In the Constantinopolitan Rite of the service books of the Eastern Church, the prayer that accompanies the laying on of hands in the ordination of a deaconess runs this:
"O Lord God, who does not reject women who offer themselves in accordance with the divine will to minister in thy holy places, but admittest them into the rank of ministers (leitourgoi). Give the grace of thy Holy Spirit even to this thy handmaid, who desireth to offer herself to thee, and to fulfill the grace of the ministry as thou didst give the grace of thy ministry unto Phoebe..."
I trust that these insights will be helpful to your understanding of Female Deacons in the Orthodox Church.
I'm not sure where everyone is from, but we have deaconesses who serve outside the altar in Southern California, under the guidance of H.G. Bishop Serapion.
MarMar91 raised a good point and I see that it is only fair that she gets an answer that would satisfy her needs. I am going to try to answer this, but I do not know if it will satisfy you (after reading all these pages, I personally would be satisfied by all the great answers).
Let us leave the superficial idea of being a deacon and look at the true meaning of deaconship. What is a deacon? A deacon is one who serves God and raises praise for His Holy name. What is the difference between a deacon and a mere congregation attendant? They both serve the Lord and both offer praise. Just because a deacon wears a tunic does not make him higher than those without.
The responsibilities of the church are equally divided among men and women. Actually if you think about it, women can be deacons as well (I know you will say deaconesses. But I mean deacons not in a literal sense but in an indirect way.) If you think about it, if women offer service in secret without the praise of the world, they are receiving a blessing from God. The whole idea of women not being deacons only enflames their service to a more spiritual level.
I believe that it was mentioned earlier that women are not allowed to enter the altar because of a moment of impurity in their reproductive transition. This is true because the altar is a place of purity. (I hope this did not offend any girls, but it is the view of the church).
All in all just think of it as a blessing because you are obedient to the word of God. You can also look at the verse:
"Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." (John 20:29)
This indirectly states that because you are deprived of something, you are blessed.
Finally, just think of it as a blessing from God. You can still serve the church just as a deacon does. Just remember that service is service, there is no service better than another. You can also look at the following verse:
"And whoever gives one of these little ones only a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple, assuredly, I say to you, he shall by no means lose his reward." (Matthew 10:42)
Even the service of giving a child some cold water is a gain. So keep in mind that no matter what you do, do it for the name of Christ and not for your own gain.
[quote author=MarMar91 link=board=1;threadid=132;start=135#msg11392 date=1094947246] :-\, i didnt forget about this topic just in case u thoguht so, this was the whole reason i even came on Tasbeha.org, mainly to clear this up, and after 10 pages, in my mind its still not cleared up, i dunno, I think i lack common sense...lol Like, ok, u guys are making me sound stupid...lol...stop!! lol...juss kidding... But seriously, u guys r just like, its not a big deal, but to me it is, so, Women are not "called to this" hmmmm, so its a part of our tradition, really, aww man.... thats 1 thing that i dont like....hmmmmmmm how can i stop stalling and find out a way to say what i wanna say, can u guys just keeping posting stuff, cuz i am soooo confuzzled (what else is new) and i dont even know what im asking, all thats in my head is ilke, WHY, WHY WHY... and deacon deacon deacon, i dunno, i cant put my thoughts into words, its weird, can sum1 help me?? ???
thats exactly like me all think is not fair not fair not fair, deacon deacon deacon, o man , o man, o man, y ,y ,y etc. etc. etc.like u guys can b a deacon since your little we gotta wait till we grow up u can b it and not b specifically called well watever but u gotta b called to b a deaconess not fair wel then y dont we take turns 3 weeks in a row gals then boys then so on like that nar jkz. but we r equal to yous thats y God created us form the rib its in the middle and yes because we r 'unclean' and if we start we wouldnt wanna let go but still NOT FAIR ok i better stop now BUT ITS REELLY ANNOYING ME >:( ok sorry guys but farout ok i better stop now we r in the gr8 lent
yes u just wanna get up throw them away and do it lol i get sooo anoyed its not funny wen i hear a guy going no i don wanna b a deacon i just wanna say ok ill go but b thankful 4 wat u got ppl dont have that
guys lol come on we all have our roles in the church i mean u girls can serve in many other ways maybe help in the kitchen,choir,help clean the church(not including the alter of course) but anytime u can give ur time for christ is serving. you know what i mean? u girls have a very important part in our church
yes you do, how is the kitchen gonna be without you ladies... the kitchen without females is like a sock without a foot.... lol... I am kidding by the way...
I just happen to come across this discussion. Here is an excerpt of the book titled, "Homosexuality and Ordination of Women" by H.H. Pope Shenouda. It covers all your question... why women can't be in the altar; everyone has a role within the Church... just scroll down to the "Ordination of Women" section and read all about it.
+God Bless+
(SORRY FOR PASTING IT HERE... I COULDN'T ATTACH THE FILE FOR SOME REASON...)
Deaconesses and Serving the Altar
Not only is this concerning priesthood, but also the work of deacons in serving the altar. When the Apostles consecrated the seven first deacons, what did they say? They said: "Therefore, brethren, seek out from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business" (Acts 6: 3). In the history of the Church, we may find some Deaconesses, not for the service of the altar, but for social service or educational service or for discipline or for helping the priest in matters concerning women in the holy Sacraments, but not for serving the altar, not for the Holy Eucharist, not to baptise, nothing of the sort. In the First Epistle to Timothy, chapter 2, verses 11-15, Saint Paul does not permit women to teach men in the church. In the Coptic Church we let women teach children or other women or girls in Sunday School, but they do not teach men. I am sorry, I do not want women to be displeased, but this is the Holy Bible. It is not a problem: it is how to give certain gifts to certain people. It is not being against women, but it is a matter of classifying the gifts of God. Now I return to Romans, chapter 12, regarding this matter, to read and see what the Holy Bible says to us: "For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, so we, being many, 43 are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in the proportion to our faith; or ministry..." (Rom. 12: 3-6), and then it goes on to describe every kind of ministry. Of course women have ministries in the church, not priesthood, but many other kinds of work and responsibilities. In the First Epistle to Timothy, the Apostle says: "Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man, but to be in silence" (1Tim 2: 11,12). That means that the work of prayer in the Liturgy is the work of the priest. She may attend silently and not teach men or have authority over men.
Women And The Priest’s Work
There are many things in the work of the priest which may not be suitable for women, for example, baptising men. How can a woman baptise men? It is not easy. If she is a bishop and ordains priests, that means that these priests will be subordinate to her, under her authority, under her hierarchy or jurisdiction. This is contradictory to the teaching of the Holy Bible. The Holy Anointment, how can she anoint men? How about the periods in which a woman cannot enter the church, or it is not easy for her to work, if she is a priest and pregnant in the ninth month or eighth month, or when she gives birth and must stay at home. I do not want to enter into such detail, but many other points concerning women may not help her work constantly in the church.44
Church Sacraments Delivered To Men
When our Lord Jesus Christ delivered the Sacraments of the Church, He did not deliver these Sacraments to women. For example, when He delivered Priesthood, as is mentioned in Saint John's Gospel, chapter 20, verses 21 to 23, He gave this authority to the eleven Apostles: “Then Jesus said to them (to the eleven Apostles) again, ‘Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.’ And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.’” (John 20:21-23) He gave this to the Apostles, to the Eleven, not to any women. When He gave them the Sacrament of Baptism, if we read for example Saint Matthew's Gospel, chapter 28, verse 16: “Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. And when they saw Him, they worshipped Him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, ‘All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age’” (Matt. 28: 16- 20). He gave the authority of baptising and teaching to the Eleven. He did not call all the women- although many women were very holy and were serving Him, as mentioned in Luke chapter 8, and those who followed Him to the Cross. But He said this to the Eleven. 45 And also of the Eucharist, Saint Paul said: "For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you" (1Cor. 11: 23). He received this Sacrament from the Lord. This Sacrament was also given by the Lord to the Eleven after the departure of Judas. He said to them, “Do this in remembrance of Me.” He said to them: “... teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you”, meaning what they were taught by our Lord Jesus Christ, and this also was for the Eleven. And He appeared to them for forty days and spoke to them about the mysteries of the kingdom of God, about all things concerning the kingdom of God, this also was to the eleven Apostles.
I think it is better for a woman to remain a woman, to work in services, and handle responsibilities which are more suitable for a woman. A bird may sing a sweet song on a tree and a lion may roar in the forest. If the bird tries to be a lion, it is not suitable. It is more beautiful for the bird, for the sparrow or the pigeon, to sing a sweet song and than to roar like a lion. And if the lion tries to sing like the bird it will not be acceptable. Let women be in the service of women, and man in the service of man.
Responsibilities of Women
A woman has great responsibilities. Among these responsibilities, I may mention, is having pastoral care for children in order to prepare a new generation for the Church. One of our problems is that women have no time to care for their children. 46 I can mention a holy woman in history and that is Jochebed the mother of Moses. Due to the teaching given by this holy woman to her son Moses -Moses lived in the palace of Pharaoh when he was three, four or five years old and lived the rest of the 40 years among many pharaonic worships and many idols- Moses became not only a man of faith but a hero of faith. How? Because of the teaching of his holy mother who instilled faith in him during his childhood. If women take care of their children they prepare for us the priests of the Church. The priests of the Church of course were once children, and if children are well prepared, well taught and well instructed in religious teachings, by their mothers, then women will have prepared priests without being themselves priests.
[quote author=MarMar91 link=board=1;threadid=132;start=135#msg23617 date=1113337940] I will say it neway just to annoy every1... nice and loud, lol, its in the beginning so the ppl who dont wanna hear it prolly wont come till after... but ya...
hahaha lyk me and my friends exactly we stand there and sing we r louder than the deacons with tha microphones aahhh the good times also in tasbeha sumtimes they stuff it up so we stand there with the book and scream it out (in an appropriate tone of coarse) lol the good tymes.
not saying that we arent aloud to, but there are few grls that come and the ones that know it are too chicken to go up. i say this bc i wish i could learn and if i knew tasbeha, boy would i sing at the top of my dwarfed lungs... only then would my life would be complete.
Actually believe it or not but the first disciple of Christ was Mary Mag (a woman :P) . Oh yea Mary Mag also wrote a gospel but unfortunately a long time ago when they were grouping the scriptures of the new testament they had to throw away some of the gospels and one of those was written by Mary Mag. As you can see they only left 4 gospels for us.
I have one question. We talk about women and men having different roles in the church but nobody really named a role for the women during the mass.
their role is to join the prayers together with the congregation, just like male non-deacons would do. IF there's a special choir, consisting of both male and female members, then they can join in that as well. If that's not enough u should consider protestantism (jk obviously). Honestly i dont get this whole "why cant we do this and that" mentality. We don't go to church to have a specific role and do stuff, we go in the first place to worship. Believe me, with all the things u have to do as a deacon (gettin the censor ready, lighting the candles, ordening the service etc) sometimes u come out of the liturgy without having the feeling u just attended a liturgy. It's quite nice to attend a liturgy as a congregation member sometimes, just standing there listen to the hymns and pray ;)
as HG Rafa'eel mentioned in one of his sermons, take as an example the Virgin Mary, she never complained about anything, but was always humble and happy with her position ;D
[quote author=Hos Erof link=board=1;threadid=132;start=150#msg23747 date=1113643546] their role is to join the prayers together with the congregation, just like male non-deacons would do. IF there's a special choir, consisting of both male and female members, then they can join in that as well. If that's not enough u should consider protestantism (jk obviously). Honestly i dont get this whole "why cant we do this and that" mentality. We don't go to church to have a specific role and do stuff, we go in the first place to worship. Believe me, with all the things u have to do as a deacon (gettin the censor ready, lighting the candles, ordening the service etc) sometimes u come out of the liturgy without having the feeling u just attended a liturgy. It's quite nice to attend a liturgy as a congregation member sometimes, just standing there listen to the hymns and pray ;)
as HG Rafa'eel mentioned in one of his sermons, take as an example the Virgin Mary, she never complained about anything, but was always humble and happy with her position ;D
hay hos erof but yar it is easy to say that o y u complainin bla bla bla but we really want to do it i dunno mayb to sum ppl its less than a mass but if it were me id b stepping out of heaven each tym i went in tha alter. lyk its easy for use to say as use hav been there and done that but still
and i lyk your last sentance it was nice but its hard :);)
[quote author=Hos Erof link=board=1;threadid=132;start=150#msg23747 date=1113643546] their role is to join the prayers together with the congregation, just like male non-deacons would do. IF there's a special choir, consisting of both male and female members, then they can join in that as well. If that's not enough u should consider protestantism (jk obviously). Honestly i dont get this whole "why cant we do this and that" mentality. We don't go to church to have a specific role and do stuff, we go in the first place to worship. Believe me, with all the things u have to do as a deacon (gettin the censor ready, lighting the candles, ordening the service etc) sometimes u come out of the liturgy without having the feeling u just attended a liturgy. It's quite nice to attend a liturgy as a congregation member sometimes, just standing there listen to the hymns and pray ;)
as HG Rafa'eel mentioned in one of his sermons, take as an example the Virgin Mary, she never complained about anything, but was always humble and happy with her position ;D
Thank u for that delightful answer but if all the men deacon feel the same way that sometimes the litergy only seems like work than maybe they should move aside and let the girls do it. Thats my opinion anyway.
haha, typical answer it doesnt work like that. Being a deacon is a service, something that requires an efford, and above all it's being a servant as the word indicates. Instead of complaining bout u not being allowed to serve as deacons (which is not true actually cause u can be deaconess), why not be happy u have other roles, and can participate in the prayers without all the worries and "work"???
[quote author=Hos Erof link=board=1;threadid=132;start=150#msg23755 date=1113660105] haha, typical answer it doesnt work like that. Being a deacon is a service, something that requires an efford, and above all it's being a servant as the word indicates. Instead of complaining bout u not being allowed to serve as deacons (which is not true actually cause u can be deaconess), why not be happy u have other roles, and can participate in the prayers without all the worries and "work"???
No offence but u and all other deacons makes it seem like being a deacon is hard work and make it sound like a job. U guys should look at it like an honor being able to serve God this way. U guys should stop complaining and be thankful :P. What women would do to be in ur place :-\. Hope I didn't offend anybody
u missed the point :P it's not bout complaining, i didnt say it's hard work, but it sometimes can be distractive, so i'm just pointing out that it's a problem u dont have to cope with
it's true bout it being an honor, but u never hear a guy complain bout only women being able to bare children, what bout that being a great honor?? Both men and women have their share in the service and life in general, i dont see the problem.
Comments
sleepy
Ever since i was little,I always wanted to go in the Hekal(and i did, chasing my brother, and got in trouble), anyway, so I'm just wondering why men can be deacons and married and everything and women can't. I think maybe it has to do with Jesus' disciples being men, I'm not sure though. Like i've heard of deaconesses, and I want to know more about them. I think you have to be Widowed to be a deaconess, or not get married. Can someone who knows anything about this topic please post an answer. I mean, why is it so bad if a GIRL sings one of the psalms during Pascha Week?/? Please bring me information. It has always bothered me a lot, like there was something wrong here.
Thanks, God Bless you guys and girls.
Saint paul said in corinthians 11. he said that the head of woman is the man and the head of man is christ and the head of christ is Lord Jesus. there are alot of shamseen who are gurls. however they do not serve in the altar but they have other duties. Again the women can serve and be a sunday school teachers, but they can not serve in the altar because when God came he was a man not a woman. plus this is part of our tradition.
sleepy
We need to look at serving at the altar in its proper context. God gave men the right to serve at the altar because of the defined roles He has assigned men and women. Its not a statement that women are unworthy or unable or not good enough but its simply because they're not called to it. H.G. Anba Angalos has a great surmon on this on coptichymns.net...
I recommend that you guys check it out!
God bless,
CS
lol
sleepy
First of the early women deacons: Sts. Triphena, Phoebe
& Tabitha.
According to Bartholomew 1, Archbishop of Constantinopole, New Rome & Ecumenical Patriach : "As is known, the Ecumenical Patriarchate organized about 15 years ago a special conferencein Rhodes to explore the unique role of women in the Orthodox Church. In 1997 we hosted at the Phanar an inter-Orthodox conference with the participation of women, whom we exhorted to make a thorough examination of this expression of diaknoai. We reminded them at the same time that the institution of deaconesses is an indisputable part of our tradition reaching back to the primitive Church.'
THE DIACONATE & "MINOR ORDERS"
"The apostolic order of deaconesses should be reviewed. It was never altogether abandoned in the Orthodox Church though it has tended to fall into disuse. There is ample evidence, from apostolic times, from the patristic, canonical and liturgical tradition, well into the Byzantine period that this order was held in high honor.
The deaconess was ordained within the sanctuary during the Divine Liturgy with two prayers, she received the Orarion (the deacon's stole) and received Holy Communion at the Altar.
The revival of this ancient order should be envisaged on the basis of the ancient prototypes testified to in many sources and with the prayers found in the Aostolic Constitutions and the ancient Byzantine liturgical books.
The revival of women deacons in the Orthodox Church would emphasize in a special way the dianity of women and give recognition to her contribution to the work of theChurch as a whole."
Ths history of the Church clearly indicates women deacons were ordained ministers of the Orthodox Church, and authorized b y their bishops to engage in a number of different activities which expressed the Church's mission to lead persons to salvation in Christ.
First: Women deacons frequently had a dynamic, evangelical ministry of teaching the Christian faith to others. Because of their gift of discernment, many deaconesses were renowed as spiritual mothers. Their intercession, advice, and guidance were sought by both women & men, even ranking members of the cergy.
Second: A number of women deacons had an evangelical ministry in the area of what would be called today pastoral care & social work. Among their responsibilities, some women deacons devoted their efforts to helping provide food and & shelter for the poor.
Third: Women deacons would also bring Holy Communion to those members of the community who were unable to participate in the Divine Liturgy and would offer prayer and comfort to those in need.
The Apostolic Constitutions tell of church practices both before & after Nicea where the deaconess is mentioned after the deacon and before the subdeacon. The iposition of hands by the bishop is spoken of as the accepted method of making deconesses. A prayer from the Constituion is embodied into someof the modern admission rites:
"Concerning Deaconesses...O Bishop, thou shalt lay thy hands upon her, with the Presbytery and the Deacons and Deaconesses standing by; and thou shalt say: 'Eternal God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Creator of man and woman, that didst fill with the spirit Mary and Deborah, and Anna and Hulda, that didst not disdain that thine only begotten Son should be born of a woman; thou that in the tabernacle of witness and in the temple didst appoint the women guardians of the holy gates: Do thou look on this thy handmaid, which is appointed unto ministry (eis diakonian); and grant unto her the Holy Spirit, and cleanse her froim all pollution of flesh and the spirit, that she may worthily accomplish the work committed unt her, to thy glory and the praise of thy Christ, with whom to thee and the Holy Spirit be glory and worship world without end Amen"
St. John Chrysostom, bishop of Constantinopole, spoke out eloquently against the sins of the emperor and the moral laxity of clergy and laity alike that he was forced to flee into exile. There were 40-deaconesses on the staff of the cathedral of St. Sophia and they helped the bishop to escape. Deaconesses were considered member of the clergy in both civil & ecclesiastical law.
In the Constantinopolitan Rite of the service books of the Eastern Church, the prayer that accompanies the laying on of hands in the ordination of a deaconess runs this:
"O Lord God, who does not reject women who offer themselves in accordance with the divine will to minister in thy holy places, but admittest them into the rank of ministers (leitourgoi). Give the grace of thy Holy Spirit even to this thy handmaid, who desireth to offer herself to thee, and to fulfill the grace of the ministry as thou didst give the grace of thy ministry unto Phoebe..."
I trust that these insights will be helpful to your understanding of Female Deacons in the Orthodox Church.
God's blessings be with you,
That was good.
sleepy
In His Service
sleepy ;)
MarMar91 raised a good point and I see that it is only fair that she gets an answer that would satisfy her needs. I am going to try to answer this, but I do not know if it will satisfy you (after reading all these pages, I personally would be satisfied by all the great answers).
Let us leave the superficial idea of being a deacon and look at the true meaning of deaconship. What is a deacon? A deacon is one who serves God and raises praise for His Holy name. What is the difference between a deacon and a mere congregation attendant? They both serve the Lord and both offer praise. Just because a deacon wears a tunic does not make him higher than those without.
The responsibilities of the church are equally divided among men and women. Actually if you think about it, women can be deacons as well (I know you will say deaconesses. But I mean deacons not in a literal sense but in an indirect way.) If you think about it, if women offer service in secret without the praise of the world, they are receiving a blessing from God. The whole idea of women not being deacons only enflames their service to a more spiritual level.
I believe that it was mentioned earlier that women are not allowed to enter the altar because of a moment of impurity in their reproductive transition. This is true because the altar is a place of purity. (I hope this did not offend any girls, but it is the view of the church).
All in all just think of it as a blessing because you are obedient to the word of God. You can also look at the verse:
"Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." (John 20:29)
This indirectly states that because you are deprived of something, you are blessed.
Finally, just think of it as a blessing from God. You can still serve the church just as a deacon does. Just remember that service is service, there is no service better than another. You can also look at the following verse:
"And whoever gives one of these little ones only a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple, assuredly, I say to you, he shall by no means lose his reward." (Matthew 10:42)
Even the service of giving a child some cold water is a gain. So keep in mind that no matter what you do, do it for the name of Christ and not for your own gain.
Avvaantoni
:-\, i didnt forget about this topic just in case u thoguht so, this was the whole reason i even came on Tasbeha.org, mainly to clear this up, and after 10 pages, in my mind its still not cleared up, i dunno, I think i lack common sense...lol
Like, ok, u guys are making me sound stupid...lol...stop!!
lol...juss kidding...
But seriously, u guys r just like, its not a big deal, but to me it is, so, Women are not "called to this"
hmmmm, so its a part of our tradition, really, aww man....
thats 1 thing that i dont like....hmmmmmmm
how can i stop stalling and find out a way to say what i wanna say, can u guys just keeping posting stuff, cuz i am soooo confuzzled (what else is new) and i dont even know what im asking, all thats in my head is ilke, WHY, WHY WHY...
and deacon deacon deacon, i dunno, i cant put my thoughts into words, its weird, can sum1 help me??
???
thats exactly like me all think is not fair not fair not fair, deacon deacon deacon, o man , o man, o man, y ,y ,y etc. etc. etc.like u guys can b a deacon since your little we gotta wait till we grow up u can b it and not b specifically called well watever but u gotta b called to b a deaconess not fair wel then y dont we take turns 3 weeks in a row gals then boys then so on like that nar jkz. but we r equal to yous thats y God created us form the rib its in the middle
and yes because we r 'unclean' and if we start we wouldnt wanna let go but still NOT FAIR ok i better stop now BUT ITS REELLY ANNOYING ME >:(
ok sorry guys but farout
ok i better stop now we r in the gr8 lent
GB ALL
+FROG+
- guys u better b thanful of ur duties in the church lol
i get sooo anoyed its not funny wen i hear a guy going no i don wanna b a deacon i just wanna say ok ill go but b thankful 4 wat u got ppl dont have that
GB ALL
+FROG+
i mean u girls can serve in many other ways maybe help in the kitchen,choir,help clean the church(not including the alter of course)
but anytime u can give ur time for christ is serving. you know what i mean?
u girls have a very important part in our church
thebrain
I just happen to come across this discussion. Here is an excerpt of the book titled, "Homosexuality and Ordination of Women" by H.H. Pope Shenouda. It covers all your question... why women can't be in the altar; everyone has a role within the Church... just scroll down to the "Ordination of Women" section and read all about it.
+God Bless+
(SORRY FOR PASTING IT HERE... I COULDN'T ATTACH THE FILE FOR SOME REASON...)
Deaconesses and Serving the Altar
Not only is this concerning priesthood, but also the work of
deacons in serving the altar. When the Apostles consecrated
the seven first deacons, what did they say? They said:
"Therefore, brethren, seek out from among you seven men of
good reputation, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, whom we
may appoint over this business" (Acts 6: 3). In the history of
the Church, we may find some Deaconesses, not for the service
of the altar, but for social service or educational service or for
discipline or for helping the priest in matters concerning women
in the holy Sacraments, but not for serving the altar, not for the
Holy Eucharist, not to baptise, nothing of the sort.
In the First Epistle to Timothy, chapter 2, verses 11-15, Saint
Paul does not permit women to teach men in the church. In
the Coptic Church we let women teach children or other women
or girls in Sunday School, but they do not teach men.
I am sorry, I do not want women to be displeased, but this is
the Holy Bible. It is not a problem: it is how to give certain
gifts to certain people. It is not being against women, but it
is a matter of classifying the gifts of God.
Now I return to Romans, chapter 12, regarding this matter, to
read and see what the Holy Bible says to us: "For I say,
through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you,
not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but
to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of
faith. For as we have many members in one body, but all the
members do not have the same function, so we, being many,
43
are one body in Christ, and individually members of one
another. Having then gifts differing according to the grace
that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy
in the proportion to our faith; or ministry..." (Rom. 12: 3-6),
and then it goes on to describe every kind of ministry. Of
course women have ministries in the church, not priesthood, but
many other kinds of work and responsibilities.
In the First Epistle to Timothy, the Apostle says: "Let a woman
learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a
woman to teach or have authority over a man, but to be in
silence" (1Tim 2: 11,12). That means that the work of prayer
in the Liturgy is the work of the priest. She may attend silently
and not teach men or have authority over men.
Women And The Priest’s Work
There are many things in the work of the priest which may
not be suitable for women, for example, baptising men.
How can a woman baptise men? It is not easy. If she is a
bishop and ordains priests, that means that these priests will be
subordinate to her, under her authority, under her hierarchy or
jurisdiction. This is contradictory to the teaching of the
Holy Bible. The Holy Anointment, how can she anoint men?
How about the periods in which a woman cannot enter the
church, or it is not easy for her to work, if she is a priest and
pregnant in the ninth month or eighth month, or when she gives
birth and must stay at home. I do not want to enter into such
detail, but many other points concerning women may not help
her work constantly in the church.44
Church Sacraments Delivered To Men
When our Lord Jesus Christ delivered the Sacraments of the
Church, He did not deliver these Sacraments to women.
For example, when He delivered Priesthood, as is mentioned in
Saint John's Gospel, chapter 20, verses 21 to 23, He gave this
authority to the eleven Apostles: “Then Jesus said to them (to
the eleven Apostles) again, ‘Peace to you! As the Father has
sent Me, I also send you.’ And when He had said this, He
breathed on them, and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit.
If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you
retain the sins of any, they are retained.’” (John 20:21-23) He
gave this to the Apostles, to the Eleven, not to any women.
When He gave them the Sacrament of Baptism, if we read
for example Saint Matthew's Gospel, chapter 28, verse 16:
“Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the
mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. And when they
saw Him, they worshipped Him; but some doubted. Then Jesus
came and spoke to them, saying, ‘All authority has been given
to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make
disciples of all the nations, baptising them in the name of the
Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to
observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am
with you always, even to the end of the age’” (Matt. 28: 16-
20). He gave the authority of baptising and teaching to the
Eleven. He did not call all the women- although many women
were very holy and were serving Him, as mentioned in Luke
chapter 8, and those who followed Him to the Cross. But He
said this to the Eleven.
45
And also of the Eucharist, Saint Paul said: "For I received
from the Lord that which I also delivered to you" (1Cor. 11:
23). He received this Sacrament from the Lord. This
Sacrament was also given by the Lord to the Eleven after the
departure of Judas. He said to them, “Do this in remembrance
of Me.” He said to them: “... teaching them to observe all
things that I have commanded you”, meaning what they were
taught by our Lord Jesus Christ, and this also was for the
Eleven. And He appeared to them for forty days and spoke to
them about the mysteries of the kingdom of God, about all
things concerning the kingdom of God, this also was to the
eleven Apostles.
I think it is better for a woman to remain a woman, to work
in services, and handle responsibilities which are more
suitable for a woman. A bird may sing a sweet song on a tree
and a lion may roar in the forest. If the bird tries to be a lion, it
is not suitable. It is more beautiful for the bird, for the sparrow
or the pigeon, to sing a sweet song and than to roar like a lion.
And if the lion tries to sing like the bird it will not be acceptable.
Let women be in the service of women, and man in the
service of man.
Responsibilities of Women
A woman has great responsibilities. Among these
responsibilities, I may mention, is having pastoral care for
children in order to prepare a new generation for the
Church. One of our problems is that women have no time to
care for their children.
46
I can mention a holy woman in history and that is Jochebed the
mother of Moses. Due to the teaching given by this holy
woman to her son Moses -Moses lived in the palace of Pharaoh
when he was three, four or five years old and lived the rest of
the 40 years among many pharaonic worships and many idols-
Moses became not only a man of faith but a hero of faith.
How? Because of the teaching of his holy mother who
instilled faith in him during his childhood.
If women take care of their children they prepare for us the
priests of the Church. The priests of the Church of course
were once children, and if children are well prepared, well
taught and well instructed in religious teachings, by their
mothers, then women will have prepared priests without
being themselves priests.
I will say it neway just to annoy every1... nice and loud, lol, its in the beginning so the ppl who dont wanna hear it prolly wont come till after... but ya...
hahaha lyk me and my friends exactly we stand there and sing we r louder than the deacons with tha microphones aahhh the good times also in tasbeha sumtimes they stuff it up so we stand there with the book and scream it out (in an appropriate tone of coarse) lol the good tymes.
GB ALL
+FROG+
not saying that we arent aloud to, but there are few grls that come and the ones that know it are too chicken to go up. i say this bc i wish i could learn and if i knew tasbeha, boy would i sing at the top of my dwarfed lungs... only then would my life would be complete.
I have one question. We talk about women and men having different roles in the church but nobody really named a role for the women during the mass.
as HG Rafa'eel mentioned in one of his sermons, take as an example the Virgin Mary, she never complained about anything, but was always humble and happy with her position ;D
their role is to join the prayers together with the congregation, just like male non-deacons would do. IF there's a special choir, consisting of both male and female members, then they can join in that as well. If that's not enough u should consider protestantism (jk obviously). Honestly i dont get this whole "why cant we do this and that" mentality. We don't go to church to have a specific role and do stuff, we go in the first place to worship. Believe me, with all the things u have to do as a deacon (gettin the censor ready, lighting the candles, ordening the service etc) sometimes u come out of the liturgy without having the feeling u just attended a liturgy. It's quite nice to attend a liturgy as a congregation member sometimes, just standing there listen to the hymns and pray ;)
as HG Rafa'eel mentioned in one of his sermons, take as an example the Virgin Mary, she never complained about anything, but was always humble and happy with her position ;D
hay hos erof
but yar it is easy to say that o y u complainin bla bla bla but we really want to do it i dunno mayb to sum ppl its less than a mass but if it were me id b stepping out of heaven each tym i went in tha alter. lyk its easy for use to say as use hav been there and done that but still
and i lyk your last sentance it was nice but its hard :) ;)
GB ALL
+FROG+
their role is to join the prayers together with the congregation, just like male non-deacons would do. IF there's a special choir, consisting of both male and female members, then they can join in that as well. If that's not enough u should consider protestantism (jk obviously). Honestly i dont get this whole "why cant we do this and that" mentality. We don't go to church to have a specific role and do stuff, we go in the first place to worship. Believe me, with all the things u have to do as a deacon (gettin the censor ready, lighting the candles, ordening the service etc) sometimes u come out of the liturgy without having the feeling u just attended a liturgy. It's quite nice to attend a liturgy as a congregation member sometimes, just standing there listen to the hymns and pray ;)
as HG Rafa'eel mentioned in one of his sermons, take as an example the Virgin Mary, she never complained about anything, but was always humble and happy with her position ;D
Thank u for that delightful answer but if all the men deacon feel the same way that sometimes the litergy only seems like work than maybe they should move aside and let the girls do it. Thats my opinion anyway.
it doesnt work like that. Being a deacon is a service, something that requires an efford, and above all it's being a servant as the word indicates. Instead of complaining bout u not being allowed to serve as deacons (which is not true actually cause u can be deaconess), why not be happy u have other roles, and can participate in the prayers without all the worries and "work"???
haha, typical answer
it doesnt work like that. Being a deacon is a service, something that requires an efford, and above all it's being a servant as the word indicates. Instead of complaining bout u not being allowed to serve as deacons (which is not true actually cause u can be deaconess), why not be happy u have other roles, and can participate in the prayers without all the worries and "work"???
No offence but u and all other deacons makes it seem like being a deacon is hard work and make it sound like a job. U guys should look at it like an honor being able to serve God this way. U guys should stop complaining and be thankful :P. What women would do to be in ur place :-\.
Hope I didn't offend anybody
it's not bout complaining, i didnt say it's hard work, but it sometimes can be distractive, so i'm just pointing out that it's a problem u dont have to cope with
it's true bout it being an honor, but u never hear a guy complain bout only women being able to bare children, what bout that being a great honor?? Both men and women have their share in the service and life in general, i dont see the problem.