[quote author=ophadece link=topic=12303.msg144455#msg144455 date=1315679690] There is the story of St. Marium el massreya, st. Marium the Copt... Oujai
St Mary of Egypt DID receive baptism in the Jordan river.
[quote author=St. Gregory Nazianzen, Oration 39] The Oration on the Holy Lights was preached on the Festival of the Epiphany 381, and was followed the next day by that on Baptism. In the Eastern Church this Festival is regarded as more particularly the commemoration of our Lord's Baptism, and is accordingly one of the great days for the solemn ministration of the Sacrament. It is generally called Theophania, and the Gospel in the Liturgy is S. Matthew iii. 13-17. The Sunday in the Octave is called μετὰ τὰ φῶτα (After The Lights), pointing to a time when the Feast was known as the Holy Lights, as seems to have been the case in S. Gregory's day. This name is derived from Baptism, which was often in ancient days called Illumination, in reference to which name (derived from the spiritual grace of the Sacrament) lighted torches or candles were carried by the neophytes. It would appear that the solemnites of the Festival lasted two days, of which the second was devoted to the solemn conferring of the Sacrament. Accordingly we find two Orations belonging to the Festival. In the first, delivered on the Day itself he dwells more especially on the Feast and the Mystery of our Lord's Baptism therein commemorated; and proceeds to speak of the different kinds of Baptism, of which he enumerates Five, viz.:—
The figurative Baptism of Israel by Moses in the cloud and in the Sea. The preparatory Baptism of repentance ministered by S. John the Baptist. The spiritual Baptism of water and the Holy Ghost given us by our Lord. The glorious Baptism of Martyrdom. The painful Baptism of Penance.
Ok imikhail point taken. I am not sure I may be wrong, but I thought I'd agreed with Cephas' opinion. I'll search about it more thoroughly though, and get back to you... Oujai
Baptism is necessary. Two things take place in baptism. 1) we symbolically die with Christ, 2) we are re-born. The Martyrs who became thus before their baptism in water, instead of symbolically dying with Christ, actually died. Others have been baptized in other ways.
For example, in the biography of St. Pachomius. Him and a bunch of monks were upset because a catechumen was dying and there was no priest to baptize him. Then the monks saw St. Pachomius rejoice. They inquired where his joy came from and he said that he saw the same angels that came to take the man's soul baptize him before taking his soul.
Can God baptize people in ways not known to us? Sure. Do we know that He will? No. So, we keep doing what we know works and we advocate it, since there is no guarantee that anything else works.
You do realize that our Church is but a single local church of the [Oriental] Orthodox Church, correct? Our Church, the Orthodox Church, is comprised of six patriarchates:
[quote author=JG link=topic=12303.msg144457#msg144457 date=1315680131] [quote author=St. Gregory Nazianzen, Oration 39] The Oration on the Holy Lights was preached on the Festival of the Epiphany 381, and was followed the next day by that on Baptism. In the Eastern Church this Festival is regarded as more particularly the commemoration of our Lord's Baptism, and is accordingly one of the great days for the solemn ministration of the Sacrament. It is generally called Theophania, and the Gospel in the Liturgy is S. Matthew iii. 13-17. The Sunday in the Octave is called μετὰ τὰ φῶτα (After The Lights), pointing to a time when the Feast was known as the Holy Lights, as seems to have been the case in S. Gregory's day. This name is derived from Baptism, which was often in ancient days called Illumination, in reference to which name (derived from the spiritual grace of the Sacrament) lighted torches or candles were carried by the neophytes. It would appear that the solemnites of the Festival lasted two days, of which the second was devoted to the solemn conferring of the Sacrament. Accordingly we find two Orations belonging to the Festival. In the first, delivered on the Day itself he dwells more especially on the Feast and the Mystery of our Lord's Baptism therein commemorated; and proceeds to speak of the different kinds of Baptism, of which he enumerates Five, viz.:—
The figurative Baptism of Israel by Moses in the cloud and in the Sea. The preparatory Baptism of repentance ministered by S. John the Baptist. The spiritual Baptism of water and the Holy Ghost given us by our Lord. The glorious Baptism of Martyrdom. The painful Baptism of Penance.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=12303.msg144452#msg144452 date=1315678216] + Irini nem ehmot,
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12303.msg144450#msg144450 date=1315677006] [quote author=ophadece link=topic=12303.msg144449#msg144449 date=1315676902] DEar Cephas, I think you last post is much clearer than the previous one, and like imikhail I think I missed your point, but you expressed it more concisely and elaborately. I agree with you, we certainly know of saints and people whom the Holy Spirit worked in in the last moment or even the death bed even though they hadn't had the chance of getting baptized. Oujai
St. Desmas (i.e. the good thief). Reference: The Gospels.
I'm not sure that you could call him a saint, we remember him as 'the thief' for a reason.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12303.msg144450#msg144450 date=1315677006] [quote author=ophadece link=topic=12303.msg144449#msg144449 date=1315676902] DEar Cephas, I think you last post is much clearer than the previous one, and like imikhail I think I missed your point, but you expressed it more concisely and elaborately. I agree with you, we certainly know of saints and people whom the Holy Spirit worked in in the last moment or even the death bed even though they hadn't had the chance of getting baptized. Oujai
St. Desmas (i.e. the good thief). Reference: The Gospels.
I'm not sure that you could call him a saint, we remember him as 'the thief' for a reason.
The fact that he is a thief does not, in anyway, detract from his sainthood. I have never heard of his sainthood being questioned until now. If Christ specifically told him that he would be in paradise with Him, how is that not grounds for sainthood. Christ Himself praised and honoured him.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12303.msg144450#msg144450 date=1315677006] [quote author=ophadece link=topic=12303.msg144449#msg144449 date=1315676902] DEar Cephas, I think you last post is much clearer than the previous one, and like imikhail I think I missed your point, but you expressed it more concisely and elaborately. I agree with you, we certainly know of saints and people whom the Holy Spirit worked in in the last moment or even the death bed even though they hadn't had the chance of getting baptized. Oujai
St. Desmas (i.e. the good thief). Reference: The Gospels.
I'm not sure that you could call him a saint, we remember him as 'the thief' for a reason.
The fact that he is a thief does not, in anyway, detract from his sainthood. I have never heard of his sainthood being questioned until now. If Christ specifically told him that he would be in paradise with Him, how is that not grounds for sainthood. Christ Himself praised and honoured him.
But the tradition from the pascha and most of the reflections I've heard all emphasise how he stole his salvation at the last moments of his life. I don't recall anything from tradition which has ever acclaimed him to be anything other than that.
[quote author=LoveisDivine link=topic=12303.msg144479#msg144479 date=1315723959] But the tradition from the pascha and most of the reflections I've heard all emphasise how he stole his salvation at the last moments of his life. I don't recall anything from tradition which has ever acclaimed him to be anything other than that.
That is true. However, I fail to see why that should be: a) viewed in a negative light and b) affect his status as a saint in the Church. Let's not also forget the Hymn of the Confession of the Thief which we chant at the sixth hour on Good Friday. In particular note the following:
Priest: Blessed are you O blessed thief and your good tongue by which you were truly made worthy of the kingdom of heaven and the paradise of joy.
Priest: O blessed thief, what did you see and what did you observe, that you confessed the Crucified Christ in the flesh, the King of Heaven and God of all.
Priest: You did not see Christ God glorified on Mount Tabor in the glory of His Father, but you saw Him hung in Ekranion, wherefore you cried out saying:
Priest: You believed when you saw the heaven and the earth shake and the sun and moon darkened. When the dead rose, the rocks split, and the curtain of the altar was torn, wherefore you cried out saying:
Priest: “Assuredly, I say to you,” said the Lord, “today you will be with Me in Paradise and inherit My kingdom.” The disciple denied and the thief cried out saying:
Blessed are you O Demas, the thief more than everyone on the earth, for you have gained a way no one gained. All your life, you were a thief in Jerusalem’s forests and one word you said to the Lord and he sent you to paradise.
When they crucified our Savior on the cross, they crucified two thieves with Him, one on His right and one on His left. And Demas, the thief on the right, cried out saying, “Remember me O Lord when You come into Your kingdom.” Our Savior said to Him, “Today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=12303.msg144480#msg144480 date=1315725545] + Irini nem ehmot,
[quote author=LoveisDivine link=topic=12303.msg144479#msg144479 date=1315723959] But the tradition from the pascha and most of the reflections I've heard all emphasise how he stole his salvation at the last moments of his life. I don't recall anything from tradition which has ever acclaimed him to be anything other than that.
That is true. However, I fail to see why that should be: a) viewed in a negative light and b) affect his status as a saint in the Church. Let's not also forget the Hymn of the Confession of the Thief which we chant at the sixth hour on Good Friday. In particular note the following:
Priest: Blessed are you O blessed thief and your good tongue by which you were truly made worthy of the kingdom of heaven and the paradise of joy.
Priest: O blessed thief, what did you see and what did you observe, that you confessed the Crucified Christ in the flesh, the King of Heaven and God of all.
Priest: You did not see Christ God glorified on Mount Tabor in the glory of His Father, but you saw Him hung in Ekranion, wherefore you cried out saying:
Priest: You believed when you saw the heaven and the earth shake and the sun and moon darkened. When the dead rose, the rocks split, and the curtain of the altar was torn, wherefore you cried out saying:
Priest: “Assuredly, I say to you,” said the Lord, “today you will be with Me in Paradise and inherit My kingdom.” The disciple denied and the thief cried out saying:
Blessed are you O Demas, the thief more than everyone on the earth, for you have gained a way no one gained. All your life, you were a thief in Jerusalem’s forests and one word you said to the Lord and he sent you to paradise.
When they crucified our Savior on the cross, they crucified two thieves with Him, one on His right and one on His left. And Demas, the thief on the right, cried out saying, “Remember me O Lord when You come into Your kingdom.” Our Savior said to Him, “Today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
While everyone who enters Paradise may be blessed, how many have hymns dedicated in memory of their confession? How many have been blessed to hear Christ say directly to them, 'Today you will be with me in Paradise'? Once again, I have never heard anyone question the sainthood of Desmas. On what basis are you discrediting it?
There is no Tradition, Alexandrian or otherwise, which calls Demas "Saint". No dedication of an altar to his name throughout the history of the Church and no mention of him in any Church diptych. I believe this is a discussion for another thread.
I will steer back the discussion to the topic of the thread. The main discussion of this thread is whether the Church teaches of salvation to those outside the Church.
To summarize:
Salvation is granted only through the Church for within the Church baptism is received, without which there is no salvation.
To receive baptism, the baptized must have faith in the redemption of our Lord Jesus Christ and repent of committed sins.
The baptized must then work s/his own salvation through good works and the support of the other sacraments offered through the Church.
Salvation starts in the Church and is perfected in Heaven.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=12303.msg144483#msg144483 date=1315732804] + Irini nem ehmot,
While everyone who enters Paradise may be blessed, how many have hymns dedicated in memory of their confession? How many have been blessed to hear Christ say directly to them, 'Today you will be with me in Paradise'? Once again, I have never heard anyone question the sainthood of Desmas. On what basis are you discrediting it?
Because Christ says it (hopefully) to all of us in the Gospel:
Mat 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy [fn] angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
Mat 25:32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides [his] sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 'for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
Mat 25:36 'I [was] naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
Mat 25:37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed [You], or thirsty and give [You] drink?
Mat 25:38 'When did we see You a stranger and take [You] in, or naked and clothe [You]?
Mat 25:39 'Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
Mat 25:40 "And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did [it] to one of the least of these My brethren, you did [it] to Me.'
All the Church is really doing is honouring a soul which achieved salvation much like God would; this probably is a discussion for another thread or another time.
So basically what you're both saying is, you both have no evidence to discredit his sainthood. Great. I'm glad we've established that. In the meantime, let's discredit the sainthood of King David, all the prophets, all the patriarchs (i.e. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) and let's throw in Adam and Eve to the mix as well. Oh, and Pope Kyrollos VI isn't a saint either. Good to know.
And while we're add it, how about we tell our Ethiopian Orthodox brothers and sisters that their church made a booboo including Pontius Pilate as a saint.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=12303.msg144383#msg144383 date=1315493677] + Irini nem ehmot,
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12303.msg144382#msg144382 date=1315493218] The Church is the only place where one can receive baptism without which there is no salvation. So, there is no salvation outside the Church. This is what is important. We know this and we will be measured by what we know.
In case you missed it:
Circumcision of No Avail
25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision?27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law?28 For the is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.
Now replace circumcision with baptism since, as we know, circumcision is to the Jews what baptism is to the Christians. I think it is important to note that St. Paul is directing his Epistle to Christians (Jewish Christians, but Christians nonetheless) and not to unconverted Jews.
Wrong logic.
Circumcision was a symbol realized through baptism. So, there is no way you can replace the symbol with reality. Applying your logic to the manna which was a symbol of Christ's flesh, we would then say that the Jews ate the flesh of Jesus in the wilderness. Absolute nonsense. That is no way to study the Scriptures.
As there was not possible for any one to be included in God's people unless he underwent circumcision, there is no way salvation can be attained except through baptism.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=12303.msg144488#msg144488 date=1315757954] + Irini nem ehmot,
So basically what you're both saying is, you both have no evidence to discredit his sainthood. Great. I'm glad we've established that. In the meantime, let's discredit the sainthood of King David, all the prophets, all the patriarchs (i.e. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) and let's throw in Adam and Eve to the mix as well. Oh, and Pope Kyrollos VI isn't a saint either. Good to know.
And while we're add it, how about we tell our Ethiopian Orthodox brothers and sisters that their church made a booboo including Pontius Pilate as a saint.
And now, back to your regularly scheduled nonsense.
I am afraid that a 17th century icon does not prove Tradition. If you really want to establish your point, bring one Church father from the first five centuries that refer to Demas as a saint. Or better yet find any diptych that include him. the source you referred to does not even have the word "saint" used to refer to the thief.
Here is what it says in case you missed it:
Patriarch Theophilus of Alexandria (385-412) wrote a Homily on the Crucifixion and the Good Thief, which is classic Coptic literature. In the Eastern Orthodox Church one of the hymns of Good Friday, commemorating the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ and his death at Golgotha, is entitled, The Good Thief (or The Wise Thief, Church Slavonic: Razboinika blagorazumnago), and speaks of how Christ granted Dismas Paradise. There are also several moving compositions of this hymn which are used by the Russians and form one of the highlights of the Matins service on Good Friday.
Hymns
"The Wise Thief didst Thou make worthy of Paradise, in a single moment, O Lord. By the wood of thy Cross illumine me as well, and save me."
We do not die symbolically with Christ. We do die effectively with Christ and rise with Him.
Take up your parsing of words with St. Basil the Great:
And ere now there have been some who in their championship of true religion have undergone the death for Christ's sake, not in mere similitude, but in actual fact, and so have needed none of the outward signs of water for their salvation, because they were baptized in their own blood.
- De Spiritu Sancto
imikhail is going to school St. Basil the Great on baptism.
We do not die symbolically with Christ. We do die effectively with Christ and rise with Him.
Take up your parsing of words with St. Basil the Great:
And ere now there have been some who in their championship of true religion have undergone the death for Christ's sake, not in mere similitude, but in actual fact, and so have needed none of the outward signs of water for their salvation, because they were baptized in their own blood.
- De Spiritu Sancto
imikhail is going to school St. Basil the Great on baptism.
Show some more respect 3ashin matethaza2sh.
We do not die symbolically in baptism we die effectively in baptism. We put on a new nature, we are born again meaning that the old nature is dead. This cannot be accomplished symbolically.
We were just discussing this after liturgy yesterday, because one of the men asked me when I was going to get baptized. The consensus was as imikhail has written. It is not symbolic.
It is an effective symbol of death. Are you arguing that St. Basil is wrong? Telling me to read one of Pope Shenouda's books isn't a way to make a point. Please read "Salvation in the Orthodox Concept" by Pope Shenouda, starting with page 34, to supplement Comparative Theology. Please read his book on the Priesthood. Please read all his books.
Grace allows our symbolic burial in the water to be treated as actual death. You can see a glimpse of this in the book you keep referring to -
When we reply to this question we say that this thief received the best baptism after whose example we all wish to be baptised. What is baptism but dying with Christ, as our teacher St. Paul says (Rom.6)? The Penitent Thief actually died with Christ and his death became a baptism. Similarly is the baptism by blood attributed to the martyrs who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ and were killed at the time of persecution before they had received the grace of baptism by water. Their death became a baptism because they died with Christ like the Penitent Thief.
That's why I said you were parsing words. It was the short manner of your reply that was disrespectful.
[quote author=one.copt link=topic=12303.msg144497#msg144497 date=1315764539] It is an effective symbol of death. Are you arguing that St. Basil is wrong? Telling me to read one of Pope Shenouda's books isn't a way to make a point. Please read "Salvation in the Orthodox Concept" by Pope Shenouda, starting with page 34, to supplement Comparative Theology. Please read his book on the Priesthood. Please read all his books.
Grace allows our symbolic burial in the water to be treated as actual death. You can see a glimpse of this in the book you keep referring to -
When we reply to this question we say that this thief received the best baptism after whose example we all wish to be baptised. What is baptism but dying with Christ, as our teacher St. Paul says (Rom.6)? The Penitent Thief actually died with Christ and his death became a baptism. Similarly is the baptism by blood attributed to the martyrs who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ and were killed at the time of persecution before they had received the grace of baptism by water. Their death became a baptism because they died with Christ like the Penitent Thief.
Let's address the points you are making here
It [Baprism] is an effective symbol of death.
So I can follow your argument, can you please elaborate as to what is an effective symbol? Is there an effective symbol and an ineffective symbol? Please give some scriptural references.
Are you arguing that St. Basil is wrong?
No. I never said that.
An advice: When you quote one of the Fathers of the Church, you need to read what they wrote in context. Please, provide a reference to what St. Basil said so I can read the whole topic and in context, instead of one phrase. So, please provide a reference to the quote you provided, then I will address it.
Telling me to read one of Pope Shenouda's books isn't a way to make a point.
I was not trying to make a point. Rather I was trying to educate you.
Please read "Salvation in the Orthodox Concept" by Pope Shenouda, starting with page 34, to supplement Comparative Theology. Please read his book on the Priesthood.
I have already done so. Thanks for the advice though. Hope you have read them yourself.
Grace allows our symbolic burial in the water to be treated as actual death. You can see a glimpse of this in the book you keep referring to -
When we reply to this question we say that this thief received the best baptism after whose example we all wish to be baptised. What is baptism but dying with Christ, as our teacher St. Paul says (Rom.6)? The Penitent Thief actually died with Christ and his death became a baptism. Similarly is the baptism by blood attributed to the martyrs who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ and were killed at the time of persecution before they had received the grace of baptism by water. Their death became a baptism because they died with Christ like the Penitent Thief.
Can you please show me where in the above statement does Pope Shenouda say that we die in baptism symbolically?
So I can follow your argument, can you please elaborate as to what is an effective symbol? Is there an effective symbol and an ineffective symbol? Please give some scriptural references.
You are the one who said our death in baptism is effective. I was using your terminology. You need me to explain your terminology to you?
An advice: When you quote one of the Fathers of the Church, you need to read what they wrote in context. Please, provide a reference to what St. Basil said so I can read the whole topic and in context, instead of one phrase. So, please provide a reference to the quote you provided, then I will address it.
I have read all of De Spiritu Sancto. I also told you that's where the quote is from. Advice for you: if you will take this tone, you better pay attention so you don't look foolish. Go read.
I was not trying to make a point. Rather I was trying to educate you.
Before educating someone, make sure they don't already have the knowledge.
Can you please show me where in the above statement does Pope Shenouda say that we die in baptism symbolically?
Martyr? I didn't know being executed for a crime was considered martyrdom. I guess the heavens rejoice for good ole Tookie Williams - a true 21st century martyr.
Cephas, it's nice that you think the wise thief is a saint. The fact is, as imikhail and LiD already stated the church does not recognize him as one. You are using the word saint in its broad sense and who can argue with that? Of course, everyone who enters paradise is a saint. Even the orthodoxwiki link that you provided notes that he was never canonized as a saint.
Now as you can see, this is by no means an exhaustive list of Saints. However, the bolded section (and the two highlighted words) illustrate that there are many saints whose names we do not know, but are known to God. Now, if you read the Gospel of Luke and read about St. Desmas, we read about not only his confession of Christ, but his death with Christ as well, thus making him a confessor and martyr
But we know the thief's name and have hymns surrounding the events in which he was involved, yet he is never called a saint.
Iconography - I have already referenced an icon of this saint (I don't care if you don't approve of the time it was painted) in the article above.
You need to be careful of the references you provide. Where on the icon does it say "Saint Demas"? Just because the text explaining that this icon is that of St Demas does not make it so. The text of your reference says: St. Dismas (Moscow school, XVIth century)
The text underneath the same icon says: Russian Orthodox icon of The Good Thief in Paradise (Moscow School, c. 1560).
You see the discrepancy. Unless we know what the inscription on the icon itself says, we cannot be sure if the Russians really call him a saint.
Here is what wikipedia mentions on his canonization:
Eastern Orthodox: In the Eastern Orthodox Church, one of the hymns of Good Friday is entitled, The Good Thief (or The Wise Thief, Church Slavonic: Razboinika blagorazumnago), and speaks of how Christ granted Dismas Paradise.[8] There are several compositions of this hymn[9] which are used in the Russian Orthodox Church and form one of the highlights of the Matins service on Good Friday.
Latin Church: The Catholic Church never formally canonized Saint Dismas, though he is regarded as a saint by virtue of Jesus saying he would be in Paradise, and by local church traditions.
The Oriental Tradition is the same as the Eastern and St Tawfilos called him the Good Thief.
Comments
Oujai
There is the story of St. Marium el massreya, st. Marium the Copt...
Oujai
St Mary of Egypt DID receive baptism in the Jordan river.
The Oration on the Holy Lights was preached on the Festival of the Epiphany 381, and was followed the next day by that on Baptism. In the Eastern Church this Festival is regarded as more particularly the commemoration of our Lord's Baptism, and is accordingly one of the great days for the solemn ministration of the Sacrament. It is generally called Theophania, and the Gospel in the Liturgy is S. Matthew iii. 13-17. The Sunday in the Octave is called μετὰ τὰ φῶτα (After The Lights), pointing to a time when the Feast was known as the Holy Lights, as seems to have been the case in S. Gregory's day. This name is derived from Baptism, which was often in ancient days called Illumination, in reference to which name (derived from the spiritual grace of the Sacrament) lighted torches or candles were carried by the neophytes. It would appear that the solemnites of the Festival lasted two days, of which the second was devoted to the solemn conferring of the Sacrament. Accordingly we find two Orations belonging to the Festival. In the first, delivered on the Day itself he dwells more especially on the Feast and the Mystery of our Lord's Baptism therein commemorated; and proceeds to speak of the different kinds of Baptism, of which he enumerates Five, viz.:—
The figurative Baptism of Israel by Moses in the cloud and in the Sea.
The preparatory Baptism of repentance ministered by S. John the Baptist.
The spiritual Baptism of water and the Holy Ghost given us by our Lord.
The glorious Baptism of Martyrdom.
The painful Baptism of Penance.
Source.
Oujai
For example, in the biography of St. Pachomius. Him and a bunch of monks were upset because a catechumen was dying and there was no priest to baptize him. Then the monks saw St. Pachomius rejoice. They inquired where his joy came from and he said that he saw the same angels that came to take the man's soul baptize him before taking his soul.
Can God baptize people in ways not known to us? Sure. Do we know that He will? No. So, we keep doing what we know works and we advocate it, since there is no guarantee that anything else works.
(+= autocephalous episcopate, -= autonomus episcopate)
+Coptic Orthodox
-British Orthodox Church
-French Coptic Orthodox Church
+Ethiopian Orthodox
+Eritrean Orthodox
+Armenian Apostolic Orthodox (Etchmiadzin, Cilicia, Jerusalem)
+Malankara/Indian Orthodox
+Syriac ("Jacobite") Orthodox
-Jacobite/Indian Syrian Orthodox
We are in full communion with them and together we all comprise the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church.
[quote author=JG link=topic=12303.msg144457#msg144457 date=1315680131]
[quote author=St. Gregory Nazianzen, Oration 39]
The Oration on the Holy Lights was preached on the Festival of the Epiphany 381, and was followed the next day by that on Baptism. In the Eastern Church this Festival is regarded as more particularly the commemoration of our Lord's Baptism, and is accordingly one of the great days for the solemn ministration of the Sacrament. It is generally called Theophania, and the Gospel in the Liturgy is S. Matthew iii. 13-17. The Sunday in the Octave is called μετὰ τὰ φῶτα (After The Lights), pointing to a time when the Feast was known as the Holy Lights, as seems to have been the case in S. Gregory's day. This name is derived from Baptism, which was often in ancient days called Illumination, in reference to which name (derived from the spiritual grace of the Sacrament) lighted torches or candles were carried by the neophytes. It would appear that the solemnites of the Festival lasted two days, of which the second was devoted to the solemn conferring of the Sacrament. Accordingly we find two Orations belonging to the Festival. In the first, delivered on the Day itself he dwells more especially on the Feast and the Mystery of our Lord's Baptism therein commemorated; and proceeds to speak of the different kinds of Baptism, of which he enumerates Five, viz.:—
The figurative Baptism of Israel by Moses in the cloud and in the Sea.
The preparatory Baptism of repentance ministered by S. John the Baptist.
The spiritual Baptism of water and the Holy Ghost given us by our Lord.
The glorious Baptism of Martyrdom.
The painful Baptism of Penance.
Source.
Excellent source. Thank you for further elucidating that there are in fact different types of baptism, all recognized by the Church and God.
Once again, God made the sacraments for man, not man for the sacraments.
+ Irini nem ehmot,
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12303.msg144450#msg144450 date=1315677006]
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=12303.msg144449#msg144449 date=1315676902]
DEar Cephas,
I think you last post is much clearer than the previous one, and like imikhail I think I missed your point, but you expressed it more concisely and elaborately. I agree with you, we certainly know of saints and people whom the Holy Spirit worked in in the last moment or even the death bed even though they hadn't had the chance of getting baptized.
Oujai
St. Desmas (i.e. the good thief). Reference: The Gospels.
I'm not sure that you could call him a saint, we remember him as 'the thief' for a reason.
[quote author=LoveisDivine link=topic=12303.msg144476#msg144476 date=1315722095]
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=12303.msg144452#msg144452 date=1315678216]
+ Irini nem ehmot,
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12303.msg144450#msg144450 date=1315677006]
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=12303.msg144449#msg144449 date=1315676902]
DEar Cephas,
I think you last post is much clearer than the previous one, and like imikhail I think I missed your point, but you expressed it more concisely and elaborately. I agree with you, we certainly know of saints and people whom the Holy Spirit worked in in the last moment or even the death bed even though they hadn't had the chance of getting baptized.
Oujai
St. Desmas (i.e. the good thief). Reference: The Gospels.
I'm not sure that you could call him a saint, we remember him as 'the thief' for a reason.
The fact that he is a thief does not, in anyway, detract from his sainthood. I have never heard of his sainthood being questioned until now. If Christ specifically told him that he would be in paradise with Him, how is that not grounds for sainthood. Christ Himself praised and honoured him.
+ Irini nem ehmot,
[quote author=LoveisDivine link=topic=12303.msg144476#msg144476 date=1315722095]
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=12303.msg144452#msg144452 date=1315678216]
+ Irini nem ehmot,
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12303.msg144450#msg144450 date=1315677006]
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=12303.msg144449#msg144449 date=1315676902]
DEar Cephas,
I think you last post is much clearer than the previous one, and like imikhail I think I missed your point, but you expressed it more concisely and elaborately. I agree with you, we certainly know of saints and people whom the Holy Spirit worked in in the last moment or even the death bed even though they hadn't had the chance of getting baptized.
Oujai
St. Desmas (i.e. the good thief). Reference: The Gospels.
I'm not sure that you could call him a saint, we remember him as 'the thief' for a reason.
The fact that he is a thief does not, in anyway, detract from his sainthood. I have never heard of his sainthood being questioned until now. If Christ specifically told him that he would be in paradise with Him, how is that not grounds for sainthood. Christ Himself praised and honoured him.
But the tradition from the pascha and most of the reflections I've heard all emphasise how he stole his salvation at the last moments of his life. I don't recall anything from tradition which has ever acclaimed him to be anything other than that.
[quote author=LoveisDivine link=topic=12303.msg144479#msg144479 date=1315723959]
But the tradition from the pascha and most of the reflections I've heard all emphasise how he stole his salvation at the last moments of his life. I don't recall anything from tradition which has ever acclaimed him to be anything other than that.
That is true. However, I fail to see why that should be: a) viewed in a negative light and b) affect his status as a saint in the Church. Let's not also forget the Hymn of the Confession of the Thief which we chant at the sixth hour on Good Friday. In particular note the following: Source
Seems pretty clear that Demas was blessed and worthy of being a Saint.
+ Irini nem ehmot,
[quote author=LoveisDivine link=topic=12303.msg144479#msg144479 date=1315723959]
But the tradition from the pascha and most of the reflections I've heard all emphasise how he stole his salvation at the last moments of his life. I don't recall anything from tradition which has ever acclaimed him to be anything other than that.
That is true. However, I fail to see why that should be: a) viewed in a negative light and b) affect his status as a saint in the Church. Let's not also forget the Hymn of the Confession of the Thief which we chant at the sixth hour on Good Friday. In particular note the following: Source
Seems pretty clear that Demas was blessed and worthy of being a Saint.
Everyone that enters paradise is blessed - this is obvious; I really don't follow this as a proof of his sainthood.
While everyone who enters Paradise may be blessed, how many have hymns dedicated in memory of their confession? How many have been blessed to hear Christ say directly to them, 'Today you will be with me in Paradise'? Once again, I have never heard anyone question the sainthood of Desmas. On what basis are you discrediting it?
There is no Tradition, Alexandrian or otherwise, which calls Demas "Saint". No dedication of an altar to his name throughout the history of the Church and no mention of him in any Church diptych. I believe this is a discussion for another thread.
To summarize:
Salvation is granted only through the Church for within the Church baptism is received, without which there is no salvation.
To receive baptism, the baptized must have faith in the redemption of our Lord Jesus Christ and repent of committed sins.
The baptized must then work s/his own salvation through good works and the support of the other sacraments offered through the Church.
Salvation starts in the Church and is perfected in Heaven.
+ Irini nem ehmot,
While everyone who enters Paradise may be blessed, how many have hymns dedicated in memory of their confession? How many have been blessed to hear Christ say directly to them, 'Today you will be with me in Paradise'? Once again, I have never heard anyone question the sainthood of Desmas. On what basis are you discrediting it?
Because Christ says it (hopefully) to all of us in the Gospel: All the Church is really doing is honouring a soul which achieved salvation much like God would; this probably is a discussion for another thread or another time.
LiD
So basically what you're both saying is, you both have no evidence to discredit his sainthood. Great. I'm glad we've established that. In the meantime, let's discredit the sainthood of King David, all the prophets, all the patriarchs (i.e. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) and let's throw in Adam and Eve to the mix as well. Oh, and Pope Kyrollos VI isn't a saint either. Good to know.
And while we're add it, how about we tell our Ethiopian Orthodox brothers and sisters that their church made a booboo including Pontius Pilate as a saint.
FYI: Dismas the thief - complete with feast day and icon.
And now, back to your regularly scheduled nonsense.
+ Irini nem ehmot,
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12303.msg144382#msg144382 date=1315493218]
The Church is the only place where one can receive baptism without which there is no salvation. So, there is no salvation outside the Church. This is what is important. We know this and we will be measured by what we know.
In case you missed it: Now replace circumcision with baptism since, as we know, circumcision is to the Jews what baptism is to the Christians. I think it is important to note that St. Paul is directing his Epistle to Christians (Jewish Christians, but Christians nonetheless) and not to unconverted Jews.
Wrong logic.
Circumcision was a symbol realized through baptism. So, there is no way you can replace the symbol with reality. Applying your logic to the manna which was a symbol of Christ's flesh, we would then say that the Jews ate the flesh of Jesus in the wilderness. Absolute nonsense. That is no way to study the Scriptures.
As there was not possible for any one to be included in God's people unless he underwent circumcision, there is no way salvation can be attained except through baptism.
To understand baptism in Orthodoxy, please read Comparative Theology by Pope Shenouda starting with P.17
+ Irini nem ehmot,
So basically what you're both saying is, you both have no evidence to discredit his sainthood. Great. I'm glad we've established that. In the meantime, let's discredit the sainthood of King David, all the prophets, all the patriarchs (i.e. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) and let's throw in Adam and Eve to the mix as well. Oh, and Pope Kyrollos VI isn't a saint either. Good to know.
And while we're add it, how about we tell our Ethiopian Orthodox brothers and sisters that their church made a booboo including Pontius Pilate as a saint.
FYI: Dismas the thief - complete with feast day and icon.
And now, back to your regularly scheduled nonsense.
I am afraid that a 17th century icon does not prove Tradition. If you really want to establish your point, bring one Church father from the first five centuries that refer to Demas as a saint. Or better yet find any diptych that include him. the source you referred to does not even have the word "saint" used to refer to the thief.
Here is what it says in case you missed it:
Patriarch Theophilus of Alexandria (385-412) wrote a Homily on the Crucifixion and the Good Thief, which is classic Coptic literature. In the Eastern Orthodox Church one of the hymns of Good Friday, commemorating the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ and his death at Golgotha, is entitled, The Good Thief (or The Wise Thief, Church Slavonic: Razboinika blagorazumnago), and speaks of how Christ granted Dismas Paradise. There are also several moving compositions of this hymn which are used by the Russians and form one of the highlights of the Matins service on Good Friday.
Hymns
"The Wise Thief didst Thou make worthy of Paradise, in a single moment, O Lord. By the wood of thy Cross illumine me as well, and save me."
Source
imikhail is going to school St. Basil the Great on baptism.
Show some more respect 3ashin matethaza2sh.
imikhail is going to school St. Basil the Great on baptism.
Show some more respect 3ashin matethaza2sh.
We do not die symbolically in baptism we die effectively in baptism. We put on a new nature, we are born again meaning that the old nature is dead. This cannot be accomplished symbolically.
To understand baptism in Orthodoxy, please read Comparative Theology by Pope Shenouda starting with P.17
I am not sure where have I shown disrespect ...
Grace allows our symbolic burial in the water to be treated as actual death. You can see a glimpse of this in the book you keep referring to - That's why I said you were parsing words. It was the short manner of your reply that was disrespectful.
It is an effective symbol of death. Are you arguing that St. Basil is wrong? Telling me to read one of Pope Shenouda's books isn't a way to make a point. Please read "Salvation in the Orthodox Concept" by Pope Shenouda, starting with page 34, to supplement Comparative Theology. Please read his book on the Priesthood. Please read all his books.
Grace allows our symbolic burial in the water to be treated as actual death. You can see a glimpse of this in the book you keep referring to -
Let's address the points you are making here So I can follow your argument, can you please elaborate as to what is an effective symbol? Is there an effective symbol and an ineffective symbol? Please give some scriptural references. No. I never said that.
An advice: When you quote one of the Fathers of the Church, you need to read what they wrote in context. Please, provide a reference to what St. Basil said so I can read the whole topic and in context, instead of one phrase. So, please provide a reference to the quote you provided, then I will address it. I was not trying to make a point. Rather I was trying to educate you. I have already done so. Thanks for the advice though. Hope you have read them yourself. Can you please show me where in the above statement does Pope Shenouda say that we die in baptism symbolically?
Cephas, it's nice that you think the wise thief is a saint. The fact is, as imikhail and LiD already stated the church does not recognize him as one. You are using the word saint in its broad sense and who can argue with that? Of course, everyone who enters paradise is a saint. Even the orthodoxwiki link that you provided notes that he was never canonized as a saint.
Tell me what you think of this
The text underneath the same icon says: Russian Orthodox icon of The Good Thief in Paradise (Moscow School, c. 1560).
You see the discrepancy. Unless we know what the inscription on the icon itself says, we cannot be sure if the Russians really call him a saint.
Here is what wikipedia mentions on his canonization:
Eastern Orthodox:
In the Eastern Orthodox Church, one of the hymns of Good Friday is entitled, The Good Thief (or The Wise Thief, Church Slavonic: Razboinika blagorazumnago), and speaks of how Christ granted Dismas Paradise.[8] There are several compositions of this hymn[9] which are used in the Russian Orthodox Church and form one of the highlights of the Matins service on Good Friday.
Latin Church:
The Catholic Church never formally canonized Saint Dismas, though he is regarded as a saint by virtue of Jesus saying he would be in Paradise, and by local church traditions.
The Oriental Tradition is the same as the Eastern and St Tawfilos called him the Good Thief.