I had a question. Do Copts believe that other sects of Christianity will recieve salvation? I have heard the Pope say yes, but different priests and bishops say otherwise. I'm really confused about this and I would really appreciate someone to help me out, thanks!
Comments
The official position of the Church is simple: We don't know. It is not for us to know these things. All we know is that God is merciful, just and desires the salvation of all. We should focus on working out our own salvation in fear and trembling (cf. St. Paul's Epistle to the Philippians).
There is no teaching anywhere that says one has to be Coptic to be saved. So long as a person leads an Orthodox spiritual life including belief in the Nicean creed and partakes of the sacraments in an Apostolic Church they will be saved.
The Church teaches us that the salvation is granted only through the Church. What is going to happen to those outside? Let God be the judge for He is the one Who gave the commandments and He is the one to punish those who breaks them.
PS: I don't think that Bshp Raphael necessarily meant no salvation outside the Coptic church, but I guess he is more minded by the floods of people leaving for the Protestant ones.
Oujai qen `P[C
but God looks at the heart, so we can't say if people who are not like this will not be saved, or if people who look like this will be saved. only God knows.
the thing that confuses a lot of protestants is that there is no 'state of being saved' or 'not saved'. salvation is a LIFELONG process. we have been born again, we are working out our salvation in fear and trembling, and we hope to be saved at the time of our final judgement. more on that later...
i, personally (i.e. not the official view of the church) think that many people in churches which are not orthodox are close to God if they sincerely search for Him and try to be like Him. having said that, such a sincere search is likely to lead to the orthodox church!
;)
(something i wrote in 2009 and saved to my computer as i was answering this question all the time!)
Romans 5 verses 1 and 2: ‘Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.’
James 2 verses 17 and 24: ‘faith without works is dead’ ‘a man is justified by works and not faith only’.
Matthew 6 verse 12: ‘forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors’.
James 5 verses 9 and 19-20: ‘Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!’ ‘Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.’
Philippians 2 verse 12: ‘work out your own salvation with fear and trembling’
Philippians 1 verse 6: ‘ He who has begun a good work in you will complete it’.
In the light of the verses above, I believe that salvation is an on-going process, started by the conviction of the Holy Spirit in the heart of the sinner who repents, continued by a life which follows Jesus closely and completed on the day of judgement.
i add to this 1 peter 1:9 (from today's Bible readings!):
'..receiving the end of your faith, the salvation of your souls'.
so please ask me again after i die!
;)
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=12303.msg144373#msg144373 date=1315490826]
Contrary to what Cephas said however, I don't think that is the official church position.[/color=navy]
Contrary to this, it is the official teaching of the Church. Such teaching is founded on the teachings of St. Paul which can be found in his Epistle to the Romans:
Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things.3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,6 who t “will render to each one according to his deeds” :7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them )
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
The Jews Guilty as the Gentiles
17 Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest ton the law, and make your boast in God,18 and know His will, and approve the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law,19 and tare confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness,20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and truth in the law.21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal?22 You who say, “Do not commit adultery,” do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law?
24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” as it is written.
Circumcision of No Avail
25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.26 Therefore, tif an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision?27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law?28 For the is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, tin the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=12303.msg144373#msg144373 date=1315490826]
I may be wrong though, and I hope every body else enlightens me more on the matter. I actually asked Bshp Raphael that question personally, and he answered saying that as an authority in the church he is obliged to tell people not to go to other churches lest they lose their salvation. I am interested to hear what you think...
PS: I don't think that Bshp Raphael necessarily meant no salvation outside the Coptic church, but I guess he is more minded by the floods of people leaving for the Protestant ones.
Oujai qen `P[C
You are wrong as you are misrepresenting what is being said. No one is suggesting they leave the Orthodox Church in favour of heterodox teachings. We are speaking of those who are visibly outside the Orthodox Church. The final judgement is God's and God's alone. We know God is merciful and desires the salvation of all. That is enough for us.
Your comments are taken Cephas, if only you tone down your posts with me... I'd be more than grateful...
Oujai qen `P[C
If all the time devoted to this question were devoted to prayer and repentance, probably no one would ever have to ask it.
[quote author=dzheremi link=topic=12303.msg144378#msg144378 date=1315492674]
If all the time devoted to this question were devoted to prayer and repentance, probably no one would ever have to ask it.
Indeed.
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=12303.msg144377#msg144377 date=1315492599]
Your comments are taken Cephas, if only you tone down your posts with me... I'd be more than grateful...
Oujai qen `P[C
I am merely responding in kind. It cannot be more 'toned down' than that.
As for those who are outside, the Bible is clear. However, it is not us who put the commandments and it is not us who have the right to pass judgment.
If we are asked by someone directly: "Can I be saved outside the Church?" The answer we should give is a resounding NO. This is different than passing a general judgment, for example, on all Protestants.
As for those who follow other gods like the Muslims, the Hindus, ... We know that they have no salvation for salvation is only through Christ.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12303.msg144382#msg144382 date=1315493218]
The Church is the only place where one can receive baptism without which there is no salvation. So, there is no salvation outside the Church. This is what is important. We know this and we will be measured by what we know.
In case you missed it: Now replace circumcision with baptism since, as we know, circumcision is to the Jews what baptism is to the Christians. I think it is important to note that St. Paul is directing his Epistle to Christians (Jewish Christians, but Christians nonetheless) and not to unconverted Jews.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12303.msg144382#msg144382 date=1315493218]
If we are asked by someone directly: "Can I be saved outside the Church?" The answer we should give is a resounding NO. This is different than passing a general judgment, for example, on all Protestants.
As for those who follow other gods like the Muslims, the Hindus, ... We know that they have no salvation for salvation is only through Christ.
You really need to re-read St. Paul's Epistle to the Romans, particularly the part that has been bolded above. To think you are not passing judgment is foolish. You are sitting in God's judgment seat and dictating who is and isn't going to obtain salvation. Who are you to make such a claim? You are but mud, dirt and ash, and yet you sit there proclaiming judgment on your fellow man. So much for 'judge not lest ye be judged' eh?
+ Irini nem ehmot,
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12303.msg144382#msg144382 date=1315493218]
If we are asked by someone directly: "Can I be saved outside the Church?" The answer we should give is a resounding NO. This is different than passing a general judgment, for example, on all Protestants.
As for those who follow other gods like the Muslims, the Hindus, ... We know that they have no salvation for salvation is only through Christ.
You really need to re-read St. Paul's Epistle to the Romans, particularly the part that has been bolded above.
Let's look closely at the verse you refer to:
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them
This has nothing to do with what we are talking about regarding the need for the Church as the only way people may be saved. Here, St Paul is comparing between the Law in which the Jews boast and the grace that the Gentiles received. Though this grace is given freely, it has rules to be received and is granted within the Church and following the gospel.
For the next verse, verse 16, St Paul says:
"In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my Gospel." What is the gospel of St Paul? Is it different than what the Church has received from Christ regarding baptism and living a righteous life?
The answer is no. People will be judged according to the commandments (i.e. the gospel) Christ left the Church.
To say that those who do not have Christ will be saved is against the Church teachings and is a heresy (Heresy of Universal Salvation). Those who do not have Christ will certainly perish. Those who are outside the Church will certainly perish as those who remained outside the ark of Noah.
+ Irini nem ehmot,
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=12303.msg144377#msg144377 date=1315492599]
Your comments are taken Cephas, if only you tone down your posts with me... I'd be more than grateful...
Oujai qen `P[C
I am merely responding in kind. It cannot be more 'toned down' than that.
So funny... hehe...
Oujai qen `P[C
I believe yes. I think we are santified by our church, that is purified and have protection by our church. As God come to Eygpt for protection we have a special relationship with God. As God had changed the nations from following other God's to following him ie Eygpt, Greece and Rome, then those also have his salvation. But I believe it is Eygpt who is the safest. The truest bride of Christ.
[quote author=LoveisDivine link=topic=12303.msg144369#msg144369 date=1315486595]
There is no teaching anywhere that says one has to be Coptic to be saved. So long as a person leads an Orthodox spiritual life including belief in the Nicean creed and partakes of the sacraments in an Apostolic Church they will be saved.
The Church teaches us that the salvation is granted only through the Church. What is going to happen to those outside? Let God be the judge for He is the one Who gave the commandments and He is the one to punish those who breaks them.
Coptic is identical to Church but Church is not identical to Coptic.
It is the Coptic Church. It is our identity. In the day of judgement the Christ will identify who is with him and who is not, for he knows all.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12303.msg144385#msg144385 date=1315494876]
To say that those who do not have Christ will be saved is against the Church teachings and is a heresy (Heresy of Universal Salvation). Those who do not have Christ will certainly perish. Those who are outside the Church will certainly perish as those who remained outside the ark of Noah.
Once again, your ability to create a strawman and misrepresent a person's argument rears its ugly head. Where has anyone on this entire thread mentioned Universal Salvation? This leads me to conclude one of two things, either a) you have no clue what Universal Salvation is or b) you have no clue what anyone is actually saying, and so you have taken it upon yourself to put words in their mouths. As for the ark of Noah, I seem to recall Noah collecting both 'clean' and 'unclean' animals. Just some food for thought.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12303.msg144385#msg144385 date=1315494876]
Let's look closely at the verse you refer to:
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them
This has nothing to do with what we are talking about regarding the need for the Church as the only way people may be saved. Here, St Paul is comparing between the Law in which the Jews boast and the grace that the Gentiles received. Though this grace is given freely, it has rules to be received and is granted within the Church and following the gospel.
Contrary to what you may think, these verses have everything to do with what we are talking about. St. Paul sets up a dichotomy: he compares and contrasts those who have the Law with those who do not. He further states that those who have the Law and do not follow it are more guilty than those who do not have the Law. Further, if those who do not have the Law actually follow what's in the Law, they become a Law unto themselves and thus are excused. Translate that into modern times by replacing 'Law' with 'the Church' and 'no Law' with 'no Church' and you'll see how it works. Once again, St. Paul is directing his Epistle to fellow Christians.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12303.msg144385#msg144385 date=1315494876]
For the next verse, verse 16, St Paul says:
"In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my Gospel." What is the gospel of St Paul? Is it different than what the Church has received from Christ regarding baptism and living a righteous life?
Everyone knows that the Gospel of Christ can be summarized in a single word: Love. That is the greatest commandment and that is what Christ expects from all, to love as He loved. Now obviously the only way to perfectly love is through Christ. However, that does not exclude those who you deem 'outside of the Church' as being incapable of Love. We are all judged, not only on our actions, but on what we know. The same goes for those who you deem 'outside the Church'. God, and God ALONE, judges the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, as the Apostle teaches. Do you know the secrets of men? Do you know the hearts of men? Then who are you to say some will not be saved? You are not God.
Additionally, your hang up on baptism makes it clear that you really don't understand what baptism is or means. Your Pharisaical and legalistic view of what baptism is blinds you to the truth, just like the Pharisees of old were blind to the Truth.
Here is something taken from the Shepherd of Hermas which may help further illustrate the point: Source
The basic idea here is simple: in the winter (translated in this earthly life) all trees (translated people) look the same and we cannot distinguish the just from the unjust, those who are in the Church and those who are outside of the Church. In the summer (translated the next life) all trees (translated people) will have their true nature revealed (i.e. if they were just or unjust or in the Church or outside the Church). Thus, it is impossible to say in any absolute fashion that such and such a person will not obtain salvation. In similar fashion, no one is suggesting that those outside the Church will obtain salvation (which, by the way, is what Universal Salvation teaches, in case you didn't know).
I am satisfied in knowing that I do not know who will and will not receive salvation and that God, who is all-merciful and all-compassionate and desires the salvation of all, will decide. I would rather we all work on ourselves instead of going around judging others who we perceive to be 'outside of the Church' while it may be our own selves who are far outside of the Church.
The reason I brought up Universal Salvation is because of your own comment in reply to my comment:
My Comment:
"If we are asked by someone directly: "Can I be saved outside the Church?" The answer we should give is a resounding NO. This is different than passing a general judgment, for example, on all Protestants.
As for those who follow other gods like the Muslims, the Hindus, ... We know that they have no salvation for salvation is only through Christ."
Your Comment:
"You are sitting in God's judgment seat and dictating who is and isn't going to obtain salvation. Who are you to make such a claim? You are but mud, dirt and ash, and yet you sit there proclaiming judgment on your fellow man. So much for 'judge not lest ye be judged' eh?"
If I cannot tell a Muslim or Hindu that s/he cannot be saved unless s/he comes to Christ, then by default I am acknowledging s/his salvation. This falls under the Heresy of Universal Salvation.
I am afraid that this is your own interpretation of replacing the word "law" by "the Church". None of the Church Fathers have this interpretation. If what you are saying is true, then we can replace the word law by the word "Church" in the epistle and it would make no sense.
As to whom the apostle addresses, he addresses Jews rather than Christians for why would he bring up the law, the gentiles, Abraham, Sarah, ... things that pertain to only the Jews. Yes, he addresses fellow Christians in other parts of the epistle, but the parts we are discussing here pertain to the Jews. The Gospel of Christ is no different than what is in the Old Testament where love is also shown tremendously. However, with this love comes responsibility in following what God has commanded and the rules he has set down. No salvation without baptism. Period. This is the faith that the Church has received from the Lord Himself.
To understand baptism in Orthodoxy, please read Comparative Theology by Pope Shenouda starting with P.17
It is the Coptic Church. It is our identity. In the day of judgement the Christ will identify who is with him and who is not, for he knows all.
I agree wholeheartedly with the last part of your post but the Coptic part makes me nervous.
In scripture it says that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile, slave nor free, male nor female and that we also ought to consider ourselves sojourners on the earth who are awaiting a lasting city which is not built by human hands after Abraham who his whole life was promised a nation by God but lived as nomad who died believing that God would fulfill the promise.
The promises of God focus very heavily on the renunciation of our former identity in baptism where we exchange earthly citizenship for heavenly citizenship, this is the practical result of the mystery of baptism. We are now sons to God by adoption and children of the kingdom of God. To the Apostles these pronouncements weren't just some analogy or reminder, like they example of Abraham they genuinely believed themselves to be citizens of no earthly city but rather future citizens of the lasting heavenly city sealed by the spirit of promise. The renunciations of male and female, slave and free, jew and gentile were things that they really lived out in hope. St Paul at one point criticised St Peter because he believed that he was unfaithful in living these ideals when in the presence of Jewish and Gentile believers.
The Coptic Church is our identity from the perspective of the cultural clash which is lived out in our mother nation where there is a struggle for identity and expression in an unbelieving nation. The identity is a glowing lamp amidst great darkness and oppression but it shouldn't be considered to be the ultimate identity which we present before God at the judgement - that identity must be none other than Christ Himself who died for us before a single Egyptian martyr had shed blood. I think that the most important reason we preserve Coptic identity is because it is a kind of rebellion against this non-Christian influence and any attempt to alter or deminish our true worship and traditions. The specific cultural form of worship which we offer is Coptic as much as we're Egyptian and heirs of this rich spiritual legacy but its power and importance is ultimately because it is Orthodox, Apostolic, Scriptural and Christ's.
The Church also shouldn't be thought of as just some earthly entity; the church is now the unity of heaven and earth through the incarnated person of Jesus Christ in the Holy Spirit. When Christ was incarnated this was not just a new form of outward expression on God's part in the sense that He could now walk and talk; He practically and in a real way joined heaven and earth together in His most heavenly Body. This is why in some rites they say of the Virgin Mary; the heavens of heavens cannot contain the One who was contained in your womb. So we ought to think of the church as not just a human or an earthly entity; it contains all creation, both heaven and earth in the One who has united us.
Please pray for my weakness,
LiD
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12303.msg144418#msg144418 date=1315584319]
My Comment:
"If we are asked by someone directly: "Can I be saved outside the Church?" The answer we should give is a resounding NO. This is different than passing a general judgment, for example, on all Protestants.
As for those who follow other gods like the Muslims, the Hindus, ... We know that they have no salvation for salvation is only through Christ."
Your Comment:
"You are sitting in God's judgment seat and dictating who is and isn't going to obtain salvation. Who are you to make such a claim? You are but mud, dirt and ash, and yet you sit there proclaiming judgment on your fellow man. So much for 'judge not lest ye be judged' eh?"
If I cannot tell a Muslim or Hindu that s/he cannot be saved unless s/he comes to Christ, then by default I am acknowledging s/his salvation. This falls under the Heresy of Universal Salvation.
I still stand by my comment and it does not, as you so ridiculously propose, mean that if I don't say 'NO' (in an absolute fashion as you do) that by default, I mean 'YES' (in an equally absolute fashion as you do). Things are not so black and white as you make them out to be. This does give me greater insight into your Pharisaical thinking, which is utterly absent of mercy, compassion and love. The possible answers to your proposed question are not just no or yes. There is a third answer.
Question: "Can I be saved outside the Church?"
Answer: "I don't know. What I do know is that one can obtain salvation through the Church as long as we actively 'work out our own salvation in fear and trembling' [cf. Philippians 2:12]. Christ established His Church to offer us the means of obtaining salvation through the establishment of sacraments in the Church, particularly baptism, chrismation, confession/repentance and communion. As such, it would make sense to become a part of the body of Christ (the Church) as we know where salvation is offered and we know where the Spirit works. However, we do not know where the Spirit does not work. The Spirit of God is as the wind. 'The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.' [cf. John 3:8]. I believe that God is all-merciful, all compassionate and all loving. I also believe that God desires the salvation of all. Furthermore, I believe that God is not bound by the sacraments and can save whomever He wishes by any means He wishes. The sacraments were made for man, not man for the sacraments [cf. Mark 2:27]."
This answer does not fall under your misconception of 'Universal Salvation' as I am not suggesting that those who are visibly 'outside' the Church will be saved. Rather it illustrates that no one knows except God who knows the 'secrets of men' [cf. Romans 2:16] and will judge each man according to his works, the secrets of his heart and his knowledge. The Church, in her wisdom and guidance by the Spirit of God, knows better than you and never makes absolute blanket statements about the salvation of others as the Church herself submits to God's wisdom, mercy and love.
I think you last post is much clearer than the previous one, and like imikhail I think I missed your point, but you expressed it more concisely and elaborately. I agree with you, we certainly know of saints and people whom the Holy Spirit worked in in the last moment or even the death bed even though they hadn't had the chance of getting baptized.
Oujai
DEar Cephas,
I think you last post is much clearer than the previous one, and like imikhail I think I missed your point, but you expressed it more concisely and elaborately. I agree with you, we certainly know of saints and people whom the Holy Spirit worked in in the last moment or even the death bed even though they hadn't had the chance of getting baptized.
Oujai
Please give reference ...
There are absolute steps one must take to attain salvation:
Repentance
Faith in Christ as the only Savior
Baptism
Good Works
Without these there is no salvation. If someone is visibly outside the Church then there is no salvation for that person; as the Church is the only mother that can grant salvation through the authority given to her by the Lord. Salvation is perfected in heaven bust must have been started within the Church.
If someone asks me how I can attain salvation, then my answer would be to repent and baptize in thename of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
If someone asks me can I attain salvation outside the Church my answer would be no
If someone asks can I attain salvation without baptism, then my answer would be no.
I will end my post by stressing the fact that with no baptism, there is no salvation.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12303.msg144450#msg144450 date=1315677006]
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=12303.msg144449#msg144449 date=1315676902]
DEar Cephas,
I think you last post is much clearer than the previous one, and like imikhail I think I missed your point, but you expressed it more concisely and elaborately. I agree with you, we certainly know of saints and people whom the Holy Spirit worked in in the last moment or even the death bed even though they hadn't had the chance of getting baptized.
Oujai
Please give reference ...
St. Desmas (i.e. the good thief). Reference: The Gospels.
+ Irini nem ehmot,
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12303.msg144450#msg144450 date=1315677006]
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=12303.msg144449#msg144449 date=1315676902]
DEar Cephas,
I think you last post is much clearer than the previous one, and like imikhail I think I missed your point, but you expressed it more concisely and elaborately. I agree with you, we certainly know of saints and people whom the Holy Spirit worked in in the last moment or even the death bed even though they hadn't had the chance of getting baptized.
Oujai
Please give reference ...
St. Desmas (i.e. the good thief). Reference: The Gospels.
The thief was baptized with what the Church calls baptism of blood. In fact he fulfilled literally what the Lord inquired of Mary the mother of John and James regarding baptism.