(quote) you said that the psi can't be written in arabic. but it can.
(quote) what does the jinkum have to do with this....i don't even know if they are in OB alphabet.
[quote author=CopticChurchForever link=topic=11113.msg134417#msg134417 date=1301376394] AHHHHHHH please put up a download link or e-mail it to me, the quality of his great lent hymns on this site are extremely low and and do not show the greatness of his voice!!!!
his original recording are that "low quality" because they were recorded that way....a long time ago. we try to have the files to be128 kbps: CD quality.......but some older files are just old.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11113.msg134438#msg134438 date=1301409162] you said that the psi can't be written in arabic. but it can.
No, I said that the "psi" is not a sound that exists in Arabic, because it isn't. You can approximate it, you can write it by using some foreign characters and hoping that the person who reads it is familiar enough with Persian, Urdu or another Indo-European Arabic-written alphabet to know how to read and pronounce "peh", but it just isn't a sound that is native to Arabic. In the same way that English doesn't have the 'ayn sound (so we have to replace it with a or o, e.g. Arabic, Oman), Arabic does not have p in its sound inventory, and it certainly doesn't have "ps".
what does the jinkum have to do with this....i don't even know if they are in OB alphabet.
Isn't that what the grave mark (`) over certain letters is called? That's what I've seen it called at various different places on the web (like here), and in the linguistic literature on Coptic. If you look at the pdf I linked, you'll see that where it occurs, an "e" is inserted in transliteration.
For anyone who is wondering, I found the Kiahk Vesper Praises by Ibrahim Ayad. Mina is correct...he really overdoes the GB. Recently he and Anton have been crazy about GB...but I think he does it to try to sound like the accent of the authors (Romi, Moaqab, etc.)
This shows the instability of GB. Anyone can put his own signature on the words as he likes.
As an example, I was taught to say Hiteni evki and it is recorded thus in the HCIC recordings. Then came Ibrahim Ayad and changed it to evshi.
Another, I was taught to say ebshoyce, now it is said epchoyce and sometimes by Ibrahim Aayad as epechoyce. This is nonsense. The list goes on but you got the idea.
I prefer OB that is consistent and is backed up by a vast amount of manuscripts as well as a scientific proven way of how Coptic Bohairic used to sound.
[quote author=aem581 link=topic=11113.msg134460#msg134460 date=1301421820] For anyone who is wondering, I found the Kiahk Vesper Praises by Ibrahim Ayad. Mina is correct...he really overdoes the GB. Recently he and Anton have been crazy about GB...but I think he does it to try to sound like the accent of the authors (Romi, Moaqab, etc.)
[quote author=aem581 link=topic=11113.msg134460#msg134460 date=1301421820] For anyone who is wondering, I found the Kiahk Vesper Praises by Ibrahim Ayad. Mina is correct...he really overdoes the GB. Recently he and Anton have been crazy about GB...but I think he does it to try to sound like the accent of the authors (Romi, Moaqab, etc.)
nah....it's a movement towards GB.....lead by HGB Rafael.
imikhail, 1st, concerning the heteni, it wasn't Ibarhim Ayad who put "his mark on it"...it was recorded that way by many. he's oldest recordings go back to 1988, before i was born. 2st, concerning epshois, it's not an Ibarhim Ayad "thingy" but it's an egyptian one.........almost ALL egys say shois because we naver have "ch" in arabic. same reason almost allllllll egy cantors record and say "Se-os" rather that "Theos"
It's weird: My first sustained exposure to Coptic hymns was listening to Folkways' album "Coptic Music" (recorded by Aziz S. Atiya) about 500,000,000 times in college...so I absorbed the "th" = "s" thing, and now to me "th" sounds weird, even though it's definitely in my own native language! (English)
I think I even hear it when it's probably not there. You Egyptians are corrupting me. :D:P
[quote author=dzheremi link=topic=11113.msg134452#msg134452 date=1301416209] [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11113.msg134438#msg134438 date=1301409162] you said that the psi can't be written in arabic. but it can.
No, I said that the "psi" is not a sound that exists in Arabic, because it isn't. You can approximate it, you can write it by using some foreign characters and hoping that the person who reads it is familiar enough with Persian, Urdu or another Indo-European Arabic-written alphabet to know how to read and pronounce "peh", but it just isn't a sound that is native to Arabic. In the same way that English doesn't have the 'ayn sound (so we have to replace it with a or o, e.g. Arabic, Oman), Arabic does not have p in its sound inventory, and it certainly doesn't have "ps".
what does the jinkum have to do with this....i don't even know if they are in OB alphabet.
Isn't that what the grave mark (`) over certain letters is called? That's what I've seen it called at various different places on the web (like here), and in the linguistic literature on Coptic. If you look at the pdf I linked, you'll see that where it occurs, an "e" is inserted in transliteration.
first, according to GB, they thing it doesn't exist and should be there. 2nd, according to what we use in church now, it adds an "e" to consonant and separates vowels as in `agios = a-geios.
what does the jinkum have to do with this....i don't even know if they are in OB alphabet.
Isn't that what the grave mark (`) over certain letters is called? That's what I've seen it called at various different places on the web (like here), and in the linguistic literature on Coptic. If you look at the pdf I linked, you'll see that where it occurs, an "e" is inserted in transliteration.
first, according to GB, they thing it doesn't exist and should be there. 2nd, according to what we use in church now, it adds an "e" to consonant and separates vowels as in `agios = a-geios.
Ya minatasheel I am not saying Ibrahim Ayad did the change or not. That is not the point. The point is that he changed the way he used to say it and all the new recordings changed it. Compare Ayad's old recordings of '82 and before with his new ones
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=11113.msg134505#msg134505 date=1301442690] Ya minatasheel I am not saying Ibrahim Ayad did the change or not. That is not the point. The point is that he changed the way he used to say it and all the new recordings changed it. Compare Ayad's old recordings of '82 and before with his new ones
not in "simple" usual hymns. he never said "evki" but always evshi. even in epi-epros evshi.
miner changes now are based on tarkeeeeeep rather than change of readings the words.
He used to say ebshoyce now he says epechoice, evki to evshi This has nothing to do with tarkeeb. Besides is it evshi or evki, ebshoyce or epechoyce or epchoyce?
I am just bringing up the different ways of how the different cantors and the HICS say the same thing.
it is taught that the word "eu,y" is purely greek....so the the letter is a she. for example, we call the hymn Evshes for "Eu,ec" and not evkes. d
ebshoyce or epechoyce or epchoyce?
first, lets look at the sh and ch. the letter is always taught to "ch"....we say ti-echerombi ethnesos or etitshocee (which should et-chocee). "`P[oic" should be Ep-chois "`e`P[oic" or "`m`P[oic" should be e-ep-chois or em-ep-shois....but not much people say that. they mixed it all together and say e-pet-shois or a e-mep-shois. they remove the jinkum on the pi and mix it with the actual word "chois"....it's a movement towards GB. that e at the end is not part of the word but it is added much in hymns to conduct harmony in a lahn. like hos erof ari-ho-oo chasfe (should be chasf).
I am just bringing up the different ways of how the different cantors and the HICS say the same thing.
he recorded with hics in the 1971 set. they said evki, he also said evshi. it is what he was taught and he kept. maybe m Fahim said evshi but i can't confirm that.
imikhail, "Besides is it evshi or evki, it is taught that the word "eu,y" is purely greek....so the the letter is a she." for example, we call the hymn Evshes for "Eu,ec" and not evkes. also other greek words like metanoia which we say metaneia and not metanoia. and the many old books that kept kai instead of ke
"ebshoyce or epechoyce or epchoyce?" first, lets look at the sh and ch. the letter is always taught to "ch"....we say ti-echerombi ethnesos or etitshocee (which should et-chocee). "`P[oic" should be Ep-chois "`e`P[oic" or "`m`P[oic" should be e-ep-chois or em-ep-shois....but not much people say that. they mixed it all together and say e-pet-shois or a e-mep-shois. they remove the jinkum on the pi and mix it with the actual word "chois"....it's a movement towards GB. that e at the end is not part of the word but it is added much in hymns to conduct harmony in a lahn. like hos erof ari-ho-oo chasfe (should be chasf).
"I am just bringing up the different ways of how the different cantors and the HICS say the same thing."
he recorded with hics in the 1971 set. they said evki, he also said evshi. it is what he was taught and he kept. maybe m Fahim said evshi but i can't confirm that.
Did we just discover the word ebshoyce to be really epchoyce. So, all of those who recorded it ebshoyce are wrong and the arabic trasiliterations are wrong too for they wroted with the "t".
guys.....really. i expect a lot more of you 2. so, to not put you on the spot...i am not gonna answer...i am just gonna write this: `Epi `proceu,y `cta;yte.
`Proceuxac;e.
got it?!!!! ::)
imikhael.....i dono know what looks amazing to you in what you said.
many recorded hymns are that way and have that much problems. for you to ONLY hold epshois to be evidence to anything...that doesn't mean anything. i am with recording hymns with exact lettering....even in english songs many vowels pulled and twisted to fit in a specific tune. I don't understand your last sentence about the "t"...what are trying to say?
My other question is: if GB is really true in its sounds why the variation of saying the same word or sounding the same letter differently in the same word?
"but how about khoros, should it be shoros? khrostos, shristos instead?" i limited my answer to that specific question....but it not full. the letter is "sh" only when an "ee" or "eta" or "iota" comes after it. greatest example, the word arshi (whenver it is spelled with a iota and an eeta) in other cases of greek words, it is a "kh"
"khoron, shoron (island)?" is the word greek? i dono
"My other question is: if GB is really true in its sounds why the variation? "
is this what you think it is about....what i am saying doesn't IN NO WAY support GB or even OB. it sets structure for pronouncing words. if words are originally greek than we should, GENERALLY speaking, pronounce them that way. but don't tell me we should barrow the words from greek, with the GREEK SPELLING and twist the letters's pronunciation into our language. that's why i hate some of the rules of OB. for example. the word Epnevma is greek...the reason we have it in coptic is that the original word for "spirit" was a name of an idol. so when the church took coptic as a language, the fathers chose for the greek word to replace the coptic word to cut of all connections to idolatry. (i have read this in a book you might now).
"but how about khoros, should it be shoros? khrostos, shristos instead?" i limited my answer to that specific question....but it not full. the letter is "sh" only when an "ee" or "eta" or "iota" comes after it. greatest example, the word arshi (whenever it is spelled with a iota and an eeta) in other cases of greek words, it is a "kh"
"khoron, shoron (island)?" is the word greek? i dono
"My other question is: if GB is really true in its sounds why the variation? "
is this what you think it is about....what i am saying doesn't IN ANY WAY support GB or even OB. it sets structure for pronouncing words. if words are originally greek than we should, GENERALLY speaking, pronounce them that way. but don't tell me we should barrow the words from greek, with the GREEK SPELLING and twist the letter's pronunciation into our language. that's why i hate some of the rules of OB. for example. the word Epnevma is greek...the reason we have it in coptic is that the original word for "spirit" was a name of an idol. so when the church took coptic as a language, the fathers chose for the greek word to replace the coptic word to cut of all connections to idolatry. (i have read this in a book you might know).
Comments
you said that the psi can't be written in arabic. but it can.
(quote)
what does the jinkum have to do with this....i don't even know if they are in OB alphabet.
[quote author=CopticChurchForever link=topic=11113.msg134417#msg134417 date=1301376394]
AHHHHHHH please put up a download link or e-mail it to me, the quality of his great lent hymns on this site are extremely low and and do not show the greatness of his voice!!!!
his original recording are that "low quality" because they were recorded that way....a long time ago. we try to have the files to be128 kbps: CD quality.......but some older files are just old.
you said that the psi can't be written in arabic. but it can.
No, I said that the "psi" is not a sound that exists in Arabic, because it isn't. You can approximate it, you can write it by using some foreign characters and hoping that the person who reads it is familiar enough with Persian, Urdu or another Indo-European Arabic-written alphabet to know how to read and pronounce "peh", but it just isn't a sound that is native to Arabic. In the same way that English doesn't have the 'ayn sound (so we have to replace it with a or o, e.g. Arabic, Oman), Arabic does not have p in its sound inventory, and it certainly doesn't have "ps". Isn't that what the grave mark (`) over certain letters is called? That's what I've seen it called at various different places on the web (like here), and in the linguistic literature on Coptic. If you look at the pdf I linked, you'll see that where it occurs, an "e" is inserted in transliteration.
As an example, I was taught to say Hiteni evki and it is recorded thus in the HCIC recordings. Then came Ibrahim Ayad and changed it to evshi.
Another, I was taught to say ebshoyce, now it is said epchoyce and sometimes by Ibrahim Aayad as epechoyce. This is nonsense. The list goes on but you got the idea.
I prefer OB that is consistent and is backed up by a vast amount of manuscripts as well as a scientific proven way of how Coptic Bohairic used to sound.
For anyone who is wondering, I found the Kiahk Vesper Praises by Ibrahim Ayad. Mina is correct...he really overdoes the GB. Recently he and Anton have been crazy about GB...but I think he does it to try to sound like the accent of the authors (Romi, Moaqab, etc.)
Can you send it to me? Thanks.
For anyone who is wondering, I found the Kiahk Vesper Praises by Ibrahim Ayad. Mina is correct...he really overdoes the GB. Recently he and Anton have been crazy about GB...but I think he does it to try to sound like the accent of the authors (Romi, Moaqab, etc.)
nah....it's a movement towards GB.....lead by HGB Rafael.
imikhail,
1st, concerning the heteni, it wasn't Ibarhim Ayad who put "his mark on it"...it was recorded that way by many. he's oldest recordings go back to 1988, before i was born.
2st, concerning epshois, it's not an Ibarhim Ayad "thingy" but it's an egyptian one.........almost ALL egys say shois because we naver have "ch" in arabic. same reason almost allllllll egy cantors record and say "Se-os" rather that "Theos"
I think I even hear it when it's probably not there. You Egyptians are corrupting me. :D :P
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11113.msg134438#msg134438 date=1301409162]
you said that the psi can't be written in arabic. but it can.
No, I said that the "psi" is not a sound that exists in Arabic, because it isn't. You can approximate it, you can write it by using some foreign characters and hoping that the person who reads it is familiar enough with Persian, Urdu or another Indo-European Arabic-written alphabet to know how to read and pronounce "peh", but it just isn't a sound that is native to Arabic. In the same way that English doesn't have the 'ayn sound (so we have to replace it with a or o, e.g. Arabic, Oman), Arabic does not have p in its sound inventory, and it certainly doesn't have "ps".
first, according to GB, they thing it doesn't exist and should be there.
2nd, according to what we use in church now, it adds an "e" to consonant and separates vowels as in `agios = a-geios.
2nd, according to what we use in church now, it adds an "e" to consonant and separates vowels as in `agios = a-geios.
Ya minatasheel I am not saying Ibrahim Ayad did the change or not. That is not the point. The point is that he changed the way he used to say it and all the new recordings changed it. Compare Ayad's old recordings of '82 and before with his new ones
not in "simple" usual hymns. he never said "evki" but always evshi. even in epi-epros evshi.
miner changes now are based on tarkeeeeeep rather than change of readings the words.
I am just bringing up the different ways of how the different cantors and the HICS say the same thing.
إسطوانة تسبحة عشية الاحاد الكيهكيه كامله مع الطقس الكيهكى كاملا للمعلم ابراهيم عياد
It's not working. It says I have to download something.
for example, we call the hymn Evshes for "Eu,ec" and not evkes.
d first, lets look at the sh and ch. the letter is always taught to "ch"....we say ti-echerombi ethnesos or etitshocee (which should et-chocee).
"`P[oic" should be Ep-chois
"`e`P[oic" or "`m`P[oic" should be e-ep-chois or em-ep-shois....but not much people say that. they mixed it all together and say e-pet-shois or a e-mep-shois. they remove the jinkum on the pi and mix it with the actual word "chois"....it's a movement towards GB.
that e at the end is not part of the word but it is added much in hymns to conduct harmony in a lahn. like hos erof ari-ho-oo chasfe (should be chasf). he recorded with hics in the 1971 set. they said evki, he also said evshi. it is what he was taught and he kept. maybe m Fahim said evshi but i can't confirm that.
"Besides is it evshi or evki,
it is taught that the word "eu,y" is purely greek....so the the letter is a she."
for example, we call the hymn Evshes for "Eu,ec" and not evkes. also other greek words like metanoia which we say metaneia and not metanoia. and the many old books that kept kai instead of ke
"ebshoyce or epechoyce or epchoyce?"
first, lets look at the sh and ch. the letter is always taught to "ch"....we say ti-echerombi ethnesos or etitshocee (which should et-chocee).
"`P[oic" should be Ep-chois
"`e`P[oic" or "`m`P[oic" should be e-ep-chois or em-ep-shois....but not much people say that. they mixed it all together and say e-pet-shois or a e-mep-shois. they remove the jinkum on the pi and mix it with the actual word "chois"....it's a movement towards GB.
that e at the end is not part of the word but it is added much in hymns to conduct harmony in a lahn. like hos erof ari-ho-oo chasfe (should be chasf).
"I am just bringing up the different ways of how the different cantors and the HICS say the same thing."
he recorded with hics in the 1971 set. they said evki, he also said evshi. it is what he was taught and he kept. maybe m Fahim said evshi but i can't confirm that.
M. Fahim, never used evshi.
hehe......you should know better.
::) (one more hint for meeeee)
Actually, Minagir, I am M. Fahim speaking from the hereafter.
am i supposed to be surprised?!
should we say "pros eveshsaste" since this is also a Greek word and uses the same letter?
How are you going to answer that question?
imikhail makes a valid point.
Did we just discover the word ebshoyce to be really epchoyce. So, all of those who recorded it ebshoyce are wrong and the arabic trasiliterations are wrong too for they wroted with the "t".
Amazing!!!!
`Epi `proceu,y `cta;yte.
`Proceuxac;e.
got it?!!!! ::)
imikhael.....i dono know what looks amazing to you in what you said.
many recorded hymns are that way and have that much problems. for you to ONLY hold epshois to be evidence to anything...that doesn't mean anything. i am with recording hymns with exact lettering....even in english songs many vowels pulled and twisted to fit in a specific tune.
I don't understand your last sentence about the "t"...what are trying to say?
I have to tease you. It's my job. It's in my blood.
I am sorry I used a bad example.
but how about khoros, should it be shoros?
khristos, shristos instead?
khoron, shoron (island)?
My other question is: if GB is really true in its sounds why the variation of saying the same word or sounding the same letter differently in the same word?
Thanks
i limited my answer to that specific question....but it not full.
the letter is "sh" only when an "ee" or "eta" or "iota" comes after it. greatest example, the word arshi (whenver it is spelled with a iota and an eeta)
in other cases of greek words, it is a "kh"
"khoron, shoron (island)?"
is the word greek? i dono
"My other question is: if GB is really true in its sounds why the variation? "
is this what you think it is about....what i am saying doesn't IN NO WAY support GB or even OB. it sets structure for pronouncing words. if words are originally greek than we should, GENERALLY speaking, pronounce them that way. but don't tell me we should barrow the words from greek, with the GREEK SPELLING and twist the letters's pronunciation into our language. that's why i hate some of the rules of OB. for example. the word Epnevma is greek...the reason we have it in coptic is that the original word for "spirit" was a name of an idol. so when the church took coptic as a language, the fathers chose for the greek word to replace the coptic word to cut of all connections to idolatry. (i have read this in a book you might now).
i limited my answer to that specific question....but it not full.
the letter is "sh" only when an "ee" or "eta" or "iota" comes after it. greatest example, the word arshi (whenever it is spelled with a iota and an eeta)
in other cases of greek words, it is a "kh"
"khoron, shoron (island)?"
is the word greek? i dono
"My other question is: if GB is really true in its sounds why the variation? "
is this what you think it is about....what i am saying doesn't IN ANY WAY support GB or even OB. it sets structure for pronouncing words. if words are originally greek than we should, GENERALLY speaking, pronounce them that way. but don't tell me we should barrow the words from greek, with the GREEK SPELLING and twist the letter's pronunciation into our language. that's why i hate some of the rules of OB. for example. the word Epnevma is greek...the reason we have it in coptic is that the original word for "spirit" was a name of an idol. so when the church took coptic as a language, the fathers chose for the greek word to replace the coptic word to cut of all connections to idolatry. (i have read this in a book you might know).