[quote author=Theophilus 1 link=topic=10538.msg165330#msg165330 date=1372816401] Hi Antonious, Hey this is your Eritrean friend. I got your email earlier and now I am reading your post - I am having an over dose of you lol.
Hi, Theophilus! Wow, you poor guy. You must have a headache by now. ;)
[quote author=Theophilus 1 link=topic=10538.msg165330#msg165330 date=1372816401] Coming to the topic, this is an issue that is wreaking havoc in almost all Orthodox Churches special Oriental Orthodox. I wish one day there will be an ecumenical council to put this issue to rest once and for all. Until that time those who are like minded can form some kind of group that will do more than venting out.
I agree. Please, let me know your ideas. Should we start a website? A letter writing campaign to our bishops? You already know about the articles that are being written to address this.
As we speak, two things are happening:
1.) Many youth are being driven away from their churches because of this (I know this from personal experience, as well as what some of the youth in this thread and elsewhere online are reporting).
2.) Many of the youth who are staying are being mislead by well-meaning but ill-informed servants with an "It's all Christian, yanni..." attitude.
The longer we stand by and do nothing, the worse it gets. Please, Theophilus, what are your ideas for action?
Thanks, qawe for the link. I'm definitely saving that info to my hd as well. It's not just that link though, it seems to be the whole arabwestreport site. God willing, they'll get back on line soon. If not, I've ordered the book itself from Egypt and the decisions of the Holy Synod are what they are. No one can act as if they don't exist.
So, my brothers and sisters, how should we organize? What should we do?
Zechariah the Prophet writes, "They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son." (Zech 12:10)
As someone who has been struggling against much of the folly that we observe, and has experienced the dangers of the false Christianity being both explicitly and implicitly taught, I have had my fair share of injuries. Currently, I have left my parish completely (which stands a distance of 2 minutes from my home) to attend a parish 50 minutes away. I actually have to pass by my old Parrish to get to my new one. Why am I telling you this? Because I, personally, have made a "motto" regarding the state of those churches which have been infected with the dangerous cancer of unchristian behavior. "Get out, or get happy." At least where I am, ain't nothing changing. The problem is this, friends: We are speaking on totally different platforms. I had thought that speaking to my priests, there were certain axioms which we could rely on, such that we could build a foundation of speech, but I found quite the opposite. We disagreed on what it means to be a church, whether the church does things based on whats right or what people want. The reason our points are not being heard is not because the opposition is blind to the background of what we are saying. We are speaking philosophy, and they are content with the alphabet. Now this is not to say that we are more intelligent, but that one believes in simplicity to the exclusion of deep thought, and one believes in deep thought.
So how can we fix it? The verse above is very pertinent to this situation. The only way that the churches will learn these days, is when its clergy and servants walk the ruins of the destruction they have caused. When they walk around seeing atheists running their church in the near future, they will realize that they have destroyed the house of God. We can write, but will they read? Absolutely not, and I know this from personal experience. I made a video for the love of God! A video! I knew people would be too lazy and disabled to do both reading and analytically thinking, so I thought a video would be easier to digest, and that these people could at least think! But, alas, I was wrong! I got tens of messages, and none of them analyzed my points. All of them were failing diatribes of a whiny community, afraid to be challenged into real Christianity.
The reality is, my friends, that where we are going from now is nowhere special. Nowhere good.
Take a stop my CYC and CTV and all those "Christian" channels, and see the things they say when they are talking about "God." And when they are not talking about God, they talk about politics.
Gone are the days of those fathers who screened everything, big or small, on its way into the church. In many cases, our churches have become sheep in wolves clothing. The church is the true sheep of Christ, but it has donned the clothing of the wolves like Calvin, Luther, Mark Driscoll and the like.
So how can we fix it? The verse above is very pertinent to this situation. The only way that the churches will learn these days, is when its clergy and servants walk the ruins of the destruction they have caused. When they walk around seeing atheists running their church in the near future, they will realize that they have destroyed the house of God.
But this projection presupposes that these priests and servants who run a Protodox show care about the Church. They do not.
I am not sure why we are dancing around the fact that if a priest or bishop has allowed this garbage into his church or diocese, he is a traitor. Let us be very honest about it. We cannot be politically correct about it.
There is no solution that will come from preaching to the Protodox and trying to coexist in harmony with them in the infected churches. Also, the current body of bishops and priests have shown their complete impotence and in many occasions their sympathy with Protestantism and, more often than not, strong support to Protestantism. Those who worry about their salvation will flee from one church to another, RO style, mocked and ridiculed for their Orthodoxy, in search of glimpses of Orthodoxy until it is all over.
You make some very interesting points, Ray! Please allow me to summarize and elaborate on some of them in the interests of coalescing a strategy.
1.) We have to make sure that we are speaking the same theological language as the people we are attempting to engage in dialogue. Unfortunately, in many cases, their vocabulary has become Protestantized.
2.) Having a dialogue with them means (in some cases) that we have to educate them first. We can't speak to them about Orthodox ecclesiology when some of them have no clue what that means.
Others, however, understand at least the rudiments of theology (in a Western, cataphatic sense) but are so enamored of Protestant ways that they are not going to give them up even when presented with overwhelming patristic and Biblical evidence which contradicts the things they have come to hold so dear. This is complicated by the modern, empty egalitarian "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge" attitude which holds the Fathers and Tradition to be "just another POV".
3.) The idea of hunting around for islands of Orthodoxy. In your shoes, I'd do the same thing and bypass that particular parish (returning only to help support those youth and others faithful to Orthodoxy who need a shoulder to lean on), but ultimately, this is a stop-gap measure. We're One Church. One Communion. Either we accept this stuff or we don't. We're not the "big tent" Anglican communion with "High Orthodoxy", "Middle Orthodoxy", and "Low Orthodoxy".
Ultimately, as One Church, we either accept this approach to worship and this compromise of Orthodoxy or we don't.
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=10538.msg165337#msg165337 date=1372866827] Take a stop my CYC and CTV and all those "Christian" channels, and see the things they say when they are talking about "God." And when they are not talking about God, they talk about politics
Gone are the days of those fathers who screened everything, big or small, on its way into the church. In many cases, our churches have become sheep in wolves clothing. The church is the true sheep of Christ, but it has donned the clothing of the wolves like Calvin, Luther, Mark Driscoll and the like.
Sad, but unfortunately, very true.
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=10538.msg165337#msg165337 date=1372866827] Ana Arfan,
I'm getting there. :(
[quote author=Stavro link=topic=10538.msg165338#msg165338 date=1372869032] But this projection presupposes that these priests and servants who run a Protodox show care about the Church. They do not.
I am not sure why we are dancing around the fact that if a priest or bishop has allowed this garbage into his church or diocese, he is a traitor. Let us be very honest about it. We cannot be politically correct about it.
Unfortunately, this is something that needs to be addressed.
This isn't a personal thing for me, so I'm not going to call out names or provide links, but concerned Indian Orthodox have sent me youtube vids of some of their "hipper" priests emulating Pentecostal preachers (complete with congregants waving their hands in the air and moaning ecstatically) or "rocking out" on guitars singing pop pseudo-Christian type songs. One Indian Orthodox guy grabbed my arm so hard when I was leaving his church after a Liturgy that he nearly cut off my circulation and wouldn't let me go until I promised to send him some Coptic educational materials because he said that the youth servants were using all Protestant stuff and that they needed an Orthodox example.
I sent him the materials, mostly Pope Shenouda's books, but I didn't have the heart to tell him that we have our own problems with some of the same stuff: "cool" priests and servants breaking out the guitars and drum kits or writing apologias for the same on their blogs.
And then at Oriental Orthodox functions, these guys meet and reinforce the worst tendencies in one another's churches. It is disheartening. At my weakest, I wanted to tell this upset and exasperated Indian brother, "'Behold, you are trusting in Egypt, that broken reed of a staff, which will pierce the hand of any man who leans on it.' (Isaiah 36:6) Try the Ethiopians or the Chalcedonians!" but then I said, no, that is not the Coptic Church. We're not done yet. We still have Abounas like this:
[quote author=Stavro link=topic=10538.msg165338#msg165338 date=1372869032] There is no solution that will come from preaching to the Protodox and trying to coexist in harmony with them in the infected churches.
I agree. Light and darkness cannot walk together. The Holy Spirit doesn't contradict Himself. There can be no compromise on matters of Faith.
[quote author=Stavro link=topic=10538.msg165338#msg165338 date=1372869032] Also, the current body of bishops and priests have shown their complete impotence and in many occasions their sympathy with Protestantism and, more often than not, strong support to Protestantism.
I have to be honest, Stavro, you might know more than me about this particular facet of the discussion, but based on my experience, I'm only willing to go along with what you're saying regarding a very limited number of priests.
Most of the Coptic Orthodox priests I've met have been staunchly Orthodox, and this is also true for all of the bishops I know.
Again, I won't call out names, but there are a few priests I know of who openly advocate this kind of stuff, but all of the bishops I've spoken with about it (and admittedly, you could count them on one hand) were against it.
It seems to me that many of them are unaware of how much of this stuff is going on or that this is that big of a problem. For some of them, I think it is beyond the scope of their experience. I think it's our job to let them know.
[quote author=Stavro link=topic=10538.msg165338#msg165338 date=1372869032] Those who worry about their salvation will flee from one church to another, RO style, mocked and ridiculed for their Orthodoxy, in search of glimpses of Orthodoxy until it is all over.
Unless we make a stand. Let's not let Satan have our youth or our Church. Let's follow the example of St. Athanasius and make a stand for Christ and His Church.
EDITED TO ADD PROPOSAL: I propose we start an organization to counter this kind of stuff in our Communion. It should be pan-Oriental Orthodox in nature.
We could establish a website that could serve as a repository for essays, articles, patristic materials, videos, audio lectures, et cetera for youth, clergy and servants interested in preserving Orthodoxy in their respective parishes. It could also serve as a focal point and a lifeline for those who are struggling with this out there and are becoming frustrated, despondent, and feel they are alone.
We could also act collectively in addressing our hierarchy on this issue to let them know of our concerns.
We should place this fellowship under the patronage of our common Father St. Jacob Baradaeus, who traveled around the Eastern Mediterranean and Northeast Africa during one of the worst periods of persecution in our Church, ordaining priests, administering all the other sacraments, and strengthening the faithful. We could call it the Orthodox Fellowship of St. Jacob Baradaeus.
Speaking from the experience of the Ethiopian/Eritrean Orthodox Church struggle with Protestant songs and influences here are some lessons to be learned when organizing a counter-reformation response:
1) Always work under the church hierarchy with deep respect for them. Otherwise we will be setting the wrong precedence and sowing the seed of rebellion and discord.
2) Avoid acting in a knee-jerk manner out of frustration, its okay to vent out as we are all doing here but we shouldn’t despair or take action in haste.
3) Never think the church is in a grave danger and you are the one to save Her. The Church has been through a lot and She will be fine. Christ is more concerned for His church more than we can ever be. And you are never alone, there are many of us who are of the same mind.
With this points in mind, we should try to organize ourselves under a Bishop who is receptive to our plea. As Ignatius of Antioch on his epistle to the Trallians wrote “do nothing apart from the bishop, but be subject also to the presbyter as to the apostles of Jesus”.
[quote author=AntoniousNikolas link=topic=10538.msg165335#msg165335 date=1372855696] I agree. Please, let me know your ideas. Should we start a website? A letter writing campaign to our bishops? You already know about the articles that are being written to address this.
To answer A.N. question here are some steps we can take
1) I think we should start by identifying a bishop that will take our case. Since the Synod supports our stand this shouldn’t be very hard. We also need priests that are like minded on this topic.
2) Under the guidance of a bishop we can start a facebook page, a website, hold teleconferences, etc.
3) Holding workshops in local churches and in different regions to train servants to adopt the Orthodox Mind and do away with protestant ways.
4) Drafting a curriculum to be included in servants programs and seminaries so the future generation of servants and priests will be of a sound Orthodox Mind
5) Facilitating the production of literature and hymns that are in line with the Orthodox teaching
6) More and More - the sky is the limit ;)
I know we are discussing about songs in specific but I believe icons should be included in this discussion. (For that matter the whole plethora of Protestantism should be discussed). I see western style icons in many Oriental Orthodox churches. This is wrong to say the least. Hopefully we will have more discussion regarding iconography.
This is all excellent counsel, Theophilus. I agree on all points.
Those who are interested in organizing along these lines, please pm me with your email.
The next step will be to start a private email discussion where we will discuss which bishop we should place ourselves under.
We will then draft a letter for submission to this bishop outlining our concerns and goals.
I think this is realistic goal and God willing, I can facilitate this. There are several bishops here in North America who are sympathetic to our cause.
Just an update for those concerned or following this thread: our efforts are moving along. Many of us have been in touch with our bishops on this issue, and we've started a website and an FB, though things are still early yet.
Glory to God who has given us strength and a new way to shine our Orthodox light in the world.
Remnkemi, All the background songs on the facebook page clip of one orthodox are protestant songs. I don’t know what that says about the organization as a whole since I don’t know much about it. But it will be nice to get some clarifications.
[quote author=Theophilus 1 link=topic=10538.msg165506#msg165506 date=1375394110] [quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=10538.msg165501#msg165501 date=1375293187] God bless you for your commitment and effort. There is another pan-Oriental Orthodox group that shares the vision of your group. It is called oneorthodox.org. Take a look at this video: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=155491327980732&set=vb.100005595967480&type=2&theater
Glory to God who has given us strength and a new way to shine our Orthodox light in the world.
Remnkemi, All the background songs on the facebook page clip of one orthodox are protestant songs. I don’t know what that says about the organization as a whole since I don’t know much about it. But it will be nice to get some clarifications.
This is an excellent point, Theophilus. I agree wholeheartedly. It is wonderful that people are working for Orthodox unity, but our unity must be based entirely in Orthodoxy, and that means not only Faith but practice. Protestant songs and a Protestant approach to worship cannot and should not be used as a way to bridge any perceived gaps relative to rite or culture.
Are more details available? What is the itinerary of events for the day? Is so-called "praise & worship" music at all a part of the agenda? I sincerely hope and pray that it is not.
my beloved, let us open our minds a little... david used an instrument, even the angels used instruments... since when are we so uptight?! if its effecting the church in her dogma, then the pope himself would have stopped choirs to perform in the church before his sermons... what is a protestant song?! a song of praise is a song of praise, worry about the words and thats it.
David also offered burnt offerings and whole burnt offerings. Do you do this? In any case, instruments are far from the main issue here, particularly if you read Fr Peter's contributions to this thread.
the angels used instruments...
I doubt it, since angels are spirits, and instruments are physical. In any case, the only thing this proves is that musical instruments are not sinful, which is already clear in the many Orthodox people who are musicians and play (godly) secular music. The question is, "Are instruments appropriate for humans, not angels, to worship God?"
since when are we so uptight?!
Since St Paul the Uptight commanded us to hold fast to the Tradition. I don't mean small 't' local traditions of the Church in Egypt, but rather the universal Tradition of the Orthodox Church. The Orthodox Church in America, which is completely made up of American converts, who have nothing to do with Egypt, or Greece, or Russia, do not worship like this.
if its effecting the church in her dogma, then the pope himself would have stopped choirs to perform in the church before his sermons...
Of course, like Nestorius, the Patriarch of Constantinople, himself stopped the spread of the Nestorian heresy. In any case, there is nothing wrong with choirs - there is a choir in the liturgy itself.
what is a protestant song?!
A (religious) song written by a Protestant, which naturally reflects Protestant beliefs.
a song of praise is a song of praise,
Of course, that is stating the obvious. But a song of praise could be praising God, or Satan, or one's ego, etc... Even a song of praise to God, as Protestant songs undoubtedly are, may be acceptable praise or unacceptable praise. Just like Cain's offering was unacceptable, while Abel's was. And since you referenced King David earlier, he says in the Psalms, "Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be ACCEPTABLE in your sight O Lord". So clearly not all praise/prayer/meditation is acceptable by the mere fact that it is praise/prayer/meditation.
worry about the words and thats it.
A song consists of words and music. The two are inseparable. Lyrics and music working together is the very definition of music and it is what makes a good song. The musician's message, then, can be communicated through both the words and the music. If only the words fully express the musician's message, then why would he bother himself with the music at all? Do you watch a movie without the sound? Or do you watch a movie without the background music? Of course not, as to do so would detract from the experience, as some of the meaning, contained in the background music itself, would be lost.
[quote author=✞SuperMAN✞(BAM)✞ link=topic=10538.msg165618#msg165618 date=1376273118] my beloved, let us open our minds a little... david used an instrument, even the angels used instruments... since when are we so uptight?! if its effecting the church in her dogma, then the pope himself would have stopped choirs to perform in the church before his sermons... what is a protestant song?! a song of praise is a song of praise, worry about the words and thats it.
Worry about words and that's it? Excellent idea. When I decide to propose, I will send a text message that says, "Marry Me." Better yet, let me burp those words out to my fiancee over dinner (sure to charm her.)
"The Medium is the Message" - Marshal McLuhan.
The way you say something is a message on its own.
[quote author=✞SuperMAN✞(BAM)✞ link=topic=10538.msg165618#msg165618 date=1376273118] my beloved, let us open our minds a little... Watch the video by Fr Dawood Lamie. He was offended when the question he read claimed the Coptic Orthodox church is "closed-minded". Nothing could be farther from the truth. We are not closed-minded, we are holding on to the faith we received. The idea that holding on to an ancient tradition (small "t" or big "T"), automatically makes a person closed-minded, antiquated, non-progressive, (or any other prejorative description) is foolish. I'm not attacking you BAM. I'm attacking the attitude that continuously creeps up.
david used an instrument, even the angels used instruments... since when are we so uptight?!
qawe responded to the idea of the angels. They didn't use instruments. They used their voices and it shook the temple (Isaiah 6). But it is irrelevant what angels do or don't do. If you read the other article on returntoorthodoxy.org, there is a great explanation of the spiritual meaning and place of music.
if its effecting the church in her dogma, then the pope himself would have stopped choirs to perform in the church before his sermons.
If you're talking about liturgical deacon choirs, deacon choirs are not evangelical charismatic choirs. If there is another type of choir that is Orthodox in nature, then there is no problem. I don't know what exactly happens before the Pope's sermons. If you read a few pages back on this thread, Pope Shenouda and the Synod did prohibit the use of musical choirs with lavish instruments (pipes, organs, drums, etc). Pope Tawadros also commented on the use of proper worship. The truth is evangelical worship is effecting the Orthodox Church dogma. It dilutes the message of Orthodoxy and introduces many Protestant and heretical dogmas in the most subtle and covert ways. The trend now is to openly approve and allow a sort of hybrid Coptic-Protestant evangelical worship type and attitude. When we let our guard down like this and stop "holding fast to the doctrine we were given", we automatically approve of heterodox doctrine (like salvation in a moment, the eccentric use of "I" praise instead of what Jesus is or does (i.e., an ego-centered worship instead of Trinitarian-centered worship), and an emotionally focused worship instead of a worship that leads to repentance and a worship given by heavenly revelation.) The list goes on and on.
My Brothers ReturnOrthodoxy, Qawe, and Remnkemi have already articulated excellent responses which I suggest you read thoroughly and consider. I would add only the following.
[quote author=✞SuperMAN✞(BAM)✞ link=topic=10538.msg165618#msg165618 date=1376273118] my beloved, let us open our minds a little...
We are open-minded. This is why allowing for cultural variance in worship is an integral part of the Orthodox ethos and approach to mission. Look at the unity in diversity of the Oriental Orthodox Communion. But notice also that the various churches of the Oriental Orthodox Communion are part of the One True Church and their various liturgical rites, however diverse, are rooted firmly in precisely the same theological understanding of worship. All Orthodox worship is Theocentric and not anthropocentric, reverential and not intended as entertainment. We are open-minded, yes, but not so “open-minded” that we are ready to accept anything and everything under the sun, even that which contradicts our Faith, and allow those who would do so to use the unity in diversity of Oriental Orthodoxy as a smokescreen for the inclusion of “praise & worship” practices rooted in a heterodox ethos. This would be completely disingenuous.
Also, please do take the advice of your brothers here and see how Abouna Dawood responds to the same accusation of close-mindedness on the part of the Orthodox:
[quote author=✞SuperMAN✞(BAM)✞ link=topic=10538.msg165618#msg165618 date=1376273118]david used an instrument, even the angels used instruments...
Others have already addressed the points concerning angels and King David. I would like to add, however, the words of St. John Chrysostom (may his blessing be with us all, amen):
“David formerly sang songs, also today we sing hymns. He had a lyre with lifeless strings, the church has a lyre with living strings. Our tongues are the strings of the lyre with a different tone indeed but much more in accordance with piety. Here there is no need for the cithara, or for stretched strings, or for the plectrum, or for art, or for any instrument; but, if you like, you may yourself become a cithara, mortifying the members of the flesh and making a full harmony of mind and body. For when the flesh no longer lusts against the Spirit, but has submitted to its orders and has been led at length into the best and most admirable path, then will you create a spiritual melody.”
“God allowed those instruments, then, for this reason: because of their weakness, and because he wanted to temper them in love and harmony… For knowing their thoughtlessness, laziness, and carelessness, God wished to arouse them by the stratagem, blending the sweetness of melody in with the effort of paying attention.”
[quote author=✞SuperMAN✞(BAM)✞ link=topic=10538.msg165618#msg165618 date=1376273118]since when are we so uptight?!
Again, please see the Abouna Dawood video. Standing for Orthodoxy in Faith and practice is not being uptight.
These folks also accuse those who declare them to be outside of the true Church or question their practices of being close-minded.
"I'm the church. You're the church," Father Jacob Givens thundered in his homily one Sunday. "We're the church."
[quote author=✞SuperMAN✞(BAM)✞ link=topic=10538.msg165618#msg165618 date=1376273118]if its effecting the church in her dogma
It is affecting the Church and her dogma. As others have pointed out, the medium is the message. Evangelical and Charismatic “praise & worship” songs are natural expressions of the theological traditions of those churches, traditions which are totally at odds with Orthodox Christianity.
We can already see the effects. Some Coptic Churches which employ these songs also employ books by Rick Warren and other Protestant authors in their study groups and other meetings.
[quote author=✞SuperMAN✞(BAM)✞ link=topic=10538.msg165618#msg165618 date=1376273118] , then the pope himself would have stopped choirs to perform in the church before his sermons...[/
He has and did. Unfortunately, we’re not enforcing it. His Holiness Pope Shenouda III of thrice-blessed memory warned specifically against music as a means of spreading Protestant influence and theology in June of 1998.
The Coptic Orthodox Holy Synod also declared in May of 2005 that “No Protestant chorals [singing] and no unorthodox prayers are allowed in Orthodox churches”
This is why we need to bring this matter to the attention of our Fathers the Bishops and insist that the decisions of our Holy Synod be enforced and not ignored.
[quote author=✞SuperMAN✞(BAM)✞ link=topic=10538.msg165618#msg165618 date=1376273118]what is a protestant song?! a song of praise is a song of praise, worry about the words and thats it.
No, my brother. In point of fact, a musical form can, in and of itself, be an expression of a certain theological tradition. As the Orthodox scholar and theologian, Professor Harry Boosalis of St. Tikhon’s Orthodox Seminary writes,
"According to the Orthodox Faith, the teachings and traditions one upholds and believes in will necessarily influence and inform one's spiritual orientation and the way one worships..."
In other words, certain musical forms can be and are inherently “Protestant” or “Orthodox”; they are not merely shells to be filled with denomination-specific content, but rather the forms themselves are outgrowths of a given theological approach and perspective.
What did St. Athanasius say about the "songs of praise and worship" of Arius? Did he merely attack the lyrics? No, he also attacked their worldly form. For the great Saint (may his prayers be with us), the two went together!
"For what beseemed him more, when he would dance forth against the Savior, than to throw his wretched words of irreligion into dissolute and loose metres? That, while 'a man', as Wisdom says, 'is known from the utterance of his word', so from those numbers should be seen the writer's effeminate soul and corruption of thought."
I would also truly suggest another read of Remnkemi's response on this point. A choir of deacons is one thing. I'm quite sure that no Coptic Orthodox Pope has ever had a so-called "praise & worship" band perform before any of his sermons.
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=10538.msg165623#msg165623 date=1376281667] Deleted. I posted a sneak peek of my article on this topic, but decided to keep it for completion.
Ray, what a tease!! >:(
If you're not going to post it here than you MUST work day and night to complete it for our edification.
you talk but you have no power to make any changes How will you put me on the right path since maybe your God is afraid of scaring me with the concept that some will not be saved who are not perfectly orthodox and He does not like to reveal that straight away so He is going to leave me in hell without any practical solutions or warning me
do you insist that salvation or advice can not be found on these forums but a priest so do you judge the maker of this site but I think Pope Shenouda himself I am guessing may have gave it his approval as he did CYC and how does one find exactly the priest for you? so I must submit to my FOC whims who puts burdens hard to bear and will not move them with one of his fingers but my FOC did not overburden me but he was too lenient to me and often cancelled my meetings he had little concern for me but thought I was overly righteous. Should I submit to a FOC's suicidal non practical advices and hypocritical which he does not do himself as he is not in my situation? denying the need for a tutor to complete uni or denying the need to study or that non christians have feelings when you show no respect towards them and be religious in their face instead of study. Non christians may have no problem with going to church but only after study has been done instead of looking like you do not appreciate them and just use them without working at all. Bible commands to work for your masters edification they also tell you to go to church on sunday when that might be an important time making no excuses sometimes
My FOC thought I was too skinny I should watch tv if I want to socialise since he knew I confessed that too often that I was sad that I can not socialise with the other youth he did not smile when I said I wanted to be a monk but he did not disapprove either I did not give him a chance to let him tell me after university you can try to be one but he probably would have said that eventually but he probably thought I would not finish. Maybe because I am sudanese and he is egyptian and he only wants to help egyptian. My FOC often forgot my name and what I was doing. Nearly all priests I meet do that
It is clear that priests want to put a lot of responsiblity on their sons and do not even say they are doing that. . He said you are responsible for only yourself I am responsible for all He said to me sometimes he is tired and wants to go to sleep as he has been up all day. He was worried what he would hear from me in confession that it will trouble him though he did not say that. He did not want to see my big list of things I want to confess
Why do we see priests who themselves may be damned so how can they lead us. My FOC may very well have hated me because I wanted to be his friend when he knows very well the relationship between FOC and son is serious and only for the serious who do not care about offending others
Coptic Orthodox Pope Opens Investigation into Protestant-Influenced DC area Churches
After receiving complaints from bishops, priests, and servants about a so-called “New Age Orthodoxy” movement in the Washington, DC area which incorporates Evangelical and Charismatic theology, materials and so-called “praise & worship” music into the life of the Coptic Orthodox Church, H.H. Pope Tawadros II of Alexandria has appointed a committee of three bishops to investigate the matter. Originally from the 5 April edition of the Coptic Orthodox Church’s official publication, el-Keraza magazine.
HIS GRACE ANBA MICHAEL
His Grace was ordained a bishop in the feast of Pentecost June 7, 2009 by the late Pope Shenouda III to oversee the Copts in eight American states that would have been a new diocese that would have been called Mid-South Atlantic. We have an official letter signed by His Holiness Pope Shenouda to this effect, signed, sealed and dated August 20, 2009, less than three months after the ordination of Bishop Michael.
However, due to the health problems that beset His Holiness in the last years, nothing was done about it. It should be noted that Anba Michael served this area for more than thirty years when he was a monk by the name of Hegoumen Shenouda el-Baramousy, and his service is well attested to, besides the fact that his presence and service in the area is older than any of the priests in these eight states.
Following the enthronement of His Holiness Pope Tawadros II in November, 2012, several complaints came to him from bishops, priests and servants about the rise of a non-Orthodox way of service in some of the churches in this area and their meetings, which they called “New Age Orthodoxy”. This is probably due to lack of study or lack of knowledge or maybe lack of diligence in following the pure dogma, and possibly other factors as being influenced by some Western churches that have a creed that is contrary to our Orthodox faith. There were also non-Orthodox practices in some of our Coptic churches in those areas which the fathers the priests and those responsible for the purity of the teaching there did not stand up against.
A serious stand had to be made, therefore His Holiness appointed a committee from three bishops, one from Egypt, one from the Southern USA and one from South Africa to study the situation on the ground. The committee traveled there in February 2013 and met several times with the priests, the board members and the servants as well as those of different inclinations. The committee returned and presented a report to His Holiness in March 10, 2013 and His Holiness studied that report in preparation for taking the appropriate decision soon.
It should be noted that His Holiness is responsible for all diocese through the priests (of areas that do not have a bishop) until they become a diocese under the guidance of a bishop. For an area to be directly under His Holiness the Pope is untenable and undesirable due to the spread of the see and its services. As an example, His holiness appointed His Grace Anba Kirillos, bishop of Milan as a Papal vicar to help him in the service of all of Europe.
To be fair, there are other churches outside the Washington DC area that are engaging in similar practices. In addition, there are plenty of lay people who, even though they don't have these practices in their own churches, condone these practices and believe that such practices are important for the Church to grow. It's sort of a secret society of disgruntled parishioners who believe outside practices should come into the Church, rather than inside practices preaching out to the world.
Nonetheless, Pope Tawadros has shown he is faithful to Traditional Orthodox practice and theology. Kurie vulatte aftwn icpolla ety decpota May the Lord keep our master for many years.
[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=10538.msg165899#msg165899 date=1378935777] Wow. This is good. This is a good first step.
To be fair, there are other churches outside the Washington DC area that are engaging in similar practices. In addition, there are plenty of lay people who, even though they don't have these practices in their own churches, condone these practices and believe that such practices are important for the Church to grow. It's sort of a secret society of disgruntled parishioners who believe outside practices should come into the Church, rather than inside practices preaching out to the world.
Nonetheless, Pope Tawadros has shown he is faithful to Traditional Orthodox practice and theology. Kurie vulatte aftwn icpolla ety decpota May the Lord keep our master for many years.
Amen and Amen. May God give our Pope and Patriarch the strength and resolve to accomplish this task as thoroughly and as speedily as possible. There will always be malcontents, but so long as our Patriarch and Synod are steadfast, the misguided ambitions of those preaching or condoning heterodoxy and heresy will come to naught. May God disperse their council as he dispersed the council of Ahitophel.
As an orthodox christian it is your duty to present orthodoxy to all people and other christian denominations if you do not think they are saved. If by going to such meetings people think your orthodoxy means nothing/to you then it is better not to go and only strong orthodox can go and as St Paul says we must not do anything that makes our brothers stumble. If they see us at protestant meetings they may think orthodoxy means nothing and they may be emboldened to do the same. One does not need to have protestant things in Church it is our duty to do better but not to ignore such protestant things. The bible commands to test all prophecies hold fast what is good. But that is not for all to test but to the strong of the church and if they are not doing it then you have to do the testing yourself because it is your job to feed yourself spiritually if your church is not. If some song is not bad or has no heresy in it do not hate it without a cause. Some songs are very beautiful. I do not know how to compare it to orthodox songs for some of them are also very beautiful but one song I really like now is "At the Cross" by hillsong. All orthodox are supposed to be strong in their faith and share their faith everywhere but some either betray orthodoxy or want to show hostility towards us or are deceived by certain protestant wolves who teach them not to repent but only believe in Jesus at one point of their lives. Also some may be weak in faith and out of hatred to the righteous and excessive shame and despair want to hide from orthodoxy to go to protestant churches to promote that we do not need to repent to be approved of Jesus. They want to discourage people from doing good works
To suggest orthodox can not listen to protestant music in their own time and enjoy it seems extreme to me and not christian but we need to confess orthodoxy as the true faith would you not agree that the best place to present orthodoxy as non extreme and christian is in their meetings or how will they learn of it? do you want to present orthodoxy as a hard way of life and does not allow having a presence in the world? I agree such meetings do not help people consider orthodoxy that is because your orthodoxy is not a powerful faith to those who are not true believers in orthodoxy. If it was really the truth you would be allowed to go anywhere? especially if it is the only truth to salvation as some of you think or where is another place they can learn of it if not in their meetings? I guess their meetings is probably the worst place to present orthodoxy so we should avoid those meetings Even I condemn your going to protestant meetings if you can have no influence on them and I condemn your lack of ability to prove the faith to the worst of sinners like me which need to be rescued if even by miracles. Does not such difficult times like this demand miracles from Christ if only orthodox people can be saved? how is it that your God has no compassion towards non orthodox who want to follow Jesus but do not know the way? and appears too difficult and many obstacles? but those protestants who are convinced orthodoxy is certainly truth must join it and they also need to be open minded to it. They have to have a valid reason to reject orthodoxy. If they do not know it is wrong 100% then let them stop judging or they may not be saved
any faith which teaches you to be non compassionate to those outside and which makes people feel despair is a defiled religion and faith. Your church has a lot to answer for you do not even acknowledge eastern orthodox as saved or they have not acknowledged you for why would you need to chrismate them. You can reject unity if some of what eastern orthodox do is wrong Or if you do acknowledge them as saved why not accept some protestants also? and what are you doing to evangelise to the whole world?
Comments
I was looking for it all over, now I have the whole text saved on my computer.
In Christ
Theophilus
Hi Antonious,
Hey this is your Eritrean friend. I got your email earlier and now I am reading your post - I am having an over dose of you lol.
Hi, Theophilus! Wow, you poor guy. You must have a headache by now. ;)
[quote author=Theophilus 1 link=topic=10538.msg165330#msg165330 date=1372816401]
Coming to the topic, this is an issue that is wreaking havoc in almost all Orthodox Churches special Oriental Orthodox. I wish one day there will be an ecumenical council to put this issue to rest once and for all. Until that time those who are like minded can form some kind of group that will do more than venting out.
I agree. Please, let me know your ideas. Should we start a website? A letter writing campaign to our bishops? You already know about the articles that are being written to address this.
As we speak, two things are happening:
1.) Many youth are being driven away from their churches because of this (I know this from personal experience, as well as what some of the youth in this thread and elsewhere online are reporting).
2.) Many of the youth who are staying are being mislead by well-meaning but ill-informed servants with an "It's all Christian, yanni..." attitude.
The longer we stand by and do nothing, the worse it gets. Please, Theophilus, what are your ideas for action?
Thanks, qawe for the link. I'm definitely saving that info to my hd as well. It's not just that link though, it seems to be the whole arabwestreport site. God willing, they'll get back on line soon. If not, I've ordered the book itself from Egypt and the decisions of the Holy Synod are what they are. No one can act as if they don't exist.
So, my brothers and sisters, how should we organize? What should we do?
As someone who has been struggling against much of the folly that we observe, and has experienced the dangers of the false Christianity being both explicitly and implicitly taught, I have had my fair share of injuries. Currently, I have left my parish completely (which stands a distance of 2 minutes from my home) to attend a parish 50 minutes away. I actually have to pass by my old Parrish to get to my new one. Why am I telling you this? Because I, personally, have made a "motto" regarding the state of those churches which have been infected with the dangerous cancer of unchristian behavior. "Get out, or get happy." At least where I am, ain't nothing changing. The problem is this, friends: We are speaking on totally different platforms. I had thought that speaking to my priests, there were certain axioms which we could rely on, such that we could build a foundation of speech, but I found quite the opposite. We disagreed on what it means to be a church, whether the church does things based on whats right or what people want. The reason our points are not being heard is not because the opposition is blind to the background of what we are saying. We are speaking philosophy, and they are content with the alphabet. Now this is not to say that we are more intelligent, but that one believes in simplicity to the exclusion of deep thought, and one believes in deep thought.
So how can we fix it? The verse above is very pertinent to this situation. The only way that the churches will learn these days, is when its clergy and servants walk the ruins of the destruction they have caused. When they walk around seeing atheists running their church in the near future, they will realize that they have destroyed the house of God. We can write, but will they read? Absolutely not, and I know this from personal experience. I made a video for the love of God! A video! I knew people would be too lazy and disabled to do both reading and analytically thinking, so I thought a video would be easier to digest, and that these people could at least think! But, alas, I was wrong! I got tens of messages, and none of them analyzed my points. All of them were failing diatribes of a whiny community, afraid to be challenged into real Christianity.
The reality is, my friends, that where we are going from now is nowhere special. Nowhere good.
Take a stop my CYC and CTV and all those "Christian" channels, and see the things they say when they are talking about "God." And when they are not talking about God, they talk about politics.
Gone are the days of those fathers who screened everything, big or small, on its way into the church. In many cases, our churches have become sheep in wolves clothing. The church is the true sheep of Christ, but it has donned the clothing of the wolves like Calvin, Luther, Mark Driscoll and the like.
Ana Arfan,
Ray
I am not sure why we are dancing around the fact that if a priest or bishop has allowed this garbage into his church or diocese, he is a traitor. Let us be very honest about it. We cannot be politically correct about it.
There is no solution that will come from preaching to the Protodox and trying to coexist in harmony with them in the infected churches. Also, the current body of bishops and priests have shown their complete impotence and in many occasions their sympathy with Protestantism and, more often than not, strong support to Protestantism.
Those who worry about their salvation will flee from one church to another, RO style, mocked and ridiculed for their Orthodoxy, in search of glimpses of Orthodoxy until it is all over.
1.) We have to make sure that we are speaking the same theological language as the people we are attempting to engage in dialogue. Unfortunately, in many cases, their vocabulary has become Protestantized.
2.) Having a dialogue with them means (in some cases) that we have to educate them first. We can't speak to them about Orthodox ecclesiology when some of them have no clue what that means.
Others, however, understand at least the rudiments of theology (in a Western, cataphatic sense) but are so enamored of Protestant ways that they are not going to give them up even when presented with overwhelming patristic and Biblical evidence which contradicts the things they have come to hold so dear. This is complicated by the modern, empty egalitarian "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge" attitude which holds the Fathers and Tradition to be "just another POV".
3.) The idea of hunting around for islands of Orthodoxy. In your shoes, I'd do the same thing and bypass that particular parish (returning only to help support those youth and others faithful to Orthodoxy who need a shoulder to lean on), but ultimately, this is a stop-gap measure. We're One Church. One Communion. Either we accept this stuff or we don't. We're not the "big tent" Anglican communion with "High Orthodoxy", "Middle Orthodoxy", and "Low Orthodoxy".
Ultimately, as One Church, we either accept this approach to worship and this compromise of Orthodoxy or we don't.
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=10538.msg165337#msg165337 date=1372866827]
Take a stop my CYC and CTV and all those "Christian" channels, and see the things they say when they are talking about "God." And when they are not talking about God, they talk about politics
Gone are the days of those fathers who screened everything, big or small, on its way into the church. In many cases, our churches have become sheep in wolves clothing. The church is the true sheep of Christ, but it has donned the clothing of the wolves like Calvin, Luther, Mark Driscoll and the like.
Sad, but unfortunately, very true.
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=10538.msg165337#msg165337 date=1372866827]
Ana Arfan,
I'm getting there. :(
[quote author=Stavro link=topic=10538.msg165338#msg165338 date=1372869032]
But this projection presupposes that these priests and servants who run a Protodox show care about the Church. They do not.
I am not sure why we are dancing around the fact that if a priest or bishop has allowed this garbage into his church or diocese, he is a traitor. Let us be very honest about it. We cannot be politically correct about it.
Unfortunately, this is something that needs to be addressed.
This isn't a personal thing for me, so I'm not going to call out names or provide links, but concerned Indian Orthodox have sent me youtube vids of some of their "hipper" priests emulating Pentecostal preachers (complete with congregants waving their hands in the air and moaning ecstatically) or "rocking out" on guitars singing pop pseudo-Christian type songs. One Indian Orthodox guy grabbed my arm so hard when I was leaving his church after a Liturgy that he nearly cut off my circulation and wouldn't let me go until I promised to send him some Coptic educational materials because he said that the youth servants were using all Protestant stuff and that they needed an Orthodox example.
I sent him the materials, mostly Pope Shenouda's books, but I didn't have the heart to tell him that we have our own problems with some of the same stuff: "cool" priests and servants breaking out the guitars and drum kits or writing apologias for the same on their blogs.
And then at Oriental Orthodox functions, these guys meet and reinforce the worst tendencies in one another's churches. It is disheartening. At my weakest, I wanted to tell this upset and exasperated Indian brother, "'Behold, you are trusting in Egypt, that broken reed of a staff, which will pierce the hand of any man who leans on it.' (Isaiah 36:6) Try the Ethiopians or the Chalcedonians!" but then I said, no, that is not the Coptic Church. We're not done yet. We still have Abounas like this:
[quote author=Stavro link=topic=10538.msg165338#msg165338 date=1372869032]
There is no solution that will come from preaching to the Protodox and trying to coexist in harmony with them in the infected churches.
I agree. Light and darkness cannot walk together. The Holy Spirit doesn't contradict Himself. There can be no compromise on matters of Faith.
[quote author=Stavro link=topic=10538.msg165338#msg165338 date=1372869032]
Also, the current body of bishops and priests have shown their complete impotence and in many occasions their sympathy with Protestantism and, more often than not, strong support to Protestantism.
I have to be honest, Stavro, you might know more than me about this particular facet of the discussion, but based on my experience, I'm only willing to go along with what you're saying regarding a very limited number of priests.
Most of the Coptic Orthodox priests I've met have been staunchly Orthodox, and this is also true for all of the bishops I know.
Again, I won't call out names, but there are a few priests I know of who openly advocate this kind of stuff, but all of the bishops I've spoken with about it (and admittedly, you could count them on one hand) were against it.
It seems to me that many of them are unaware of how much of this stuff is going on or that this is that big of a problem. For some of them, I think it is beyond the scope of their experience. I think it's our job to let them know.
[quote author=Stavro link=topic=10538.msg165338#msg165338 date=1372869032]
Those who worry about their salvation will flee from one church to another, RO style, mocked and ridiculed for their Orthodoxy, in search of glimpses of Orthodoxy until it is all over.
Unless we make a stand. Let's not let Satan have our youth or our Church. Let's follow the example of St. Athanasius and make a stand for Christ and His Church.
EDITED TO ADD PROPOSAL: I propose we start an organization to counter this kind of stuff in our Communion. It should be pan-Oriental Orthodox in nature.
We could establish a website that could serve as a repository for essays, articles, patristic materials, videos, audio lectures, et cetera for youth, clergy and servants interested in preserving Orthodoxy in their respective parishes. It could also serve as a focal point and a lifeline for those who are struggling with this out there and are becoming frustrated, despondent, and feel they are alone.
We could also act collectively in addressing our hierarchy on this issue to let them know of our concerns.
We should place this fellowship under the patronage of our common Father St. Jacob Baradaeus, who traveled around the Eastern Mediterranean and Northeast Africa during one of the worst periods of persecution in our Church, ordaining priests, administering all the other sacraments, and strengthening the faithful. We could call it the Orthodox Fellowship of St. Jacob Baradaeus.
(St. Jacob Baradaeus story: http://www.neamericandiocese.org/feasts-memorials.54/st-jacob-baradaeus.aspx)
1) Always work under the church hierarchy with deep respect for them. Otherwise we will be setting the wrong precedence and sowing the seed of rebellion and discord.
2) Avoid acting in a knee-jerk manner out of frustration, its okay to vent out as we are all doing here but we shouldn’t despair or take action in haste.
3) Never think the church is in a grave danger and you are the one to save Her. The Church has been through a lot and She will be fine. Christ is more concerned for His church more than we can ever be. And you are never alone, there are many of us who are of the same mind.
With this points in mind, we should try to organize ourselves under a Bishop who is receptive to our plea. As Ignatius of Antioch on his epistle to the Trallians wrote “do nothing apart from the bishop, but be subject also to the presbyter as to the apostles of Jesus”.
[quote author=AntoniousNikolas link=topic=10538.msg165335#msg165335 date=1372855696]
I agree. Please, let me know your ideas. Should we start a website? A letter writing campaign to our bishops? You already know about the articles that are being written to address this.
To answer A.N. question here are some steps we can take
1) I think we should start by identifying a bishop that will take our case. Since the Synod supports our stand this shouldn’t be very hard. We also need priests that are like minded on this topic.
2) Under the guidance of a bishop we can start a facebook page, a website, hold teleconferences, etc.
3) Holding workshops in local churches and in different regions to train servants to adopt the Orthodox Mind and do away with protestant ways.
4) Drafting a curriculum to be included in servants programs and seminaries so the future generation of servants and priests will be of a sound Orthodox Mind
5) Facilitating the production of literature and hymns that are in line with the Orthodox teaching
6) More and More - the sky is the limit ;)
I know we are discussing about songs in specific but I believe icons should be included in this discussion. (For that matter the whole plethora of Protestantism should be discussed). I see western style icons in many Oriental Orthodox churches. This is wrong to say the least. Hopefully we will have more discussion regarding iconography.
In Christ
Theophilus
Those who are interested in organizing along these lines, please pm me with your email.
The next step will be to start a private email discussion where we will discuss which bishop we should place ourselves under.
We will then draft a letter for submission to this bishop outlining our concerns and goals.
I think this is realistic goal and God willing, I can facilitate this. There are several bishops here in North America who are sympathetic to our cause.
May God bless our efforts.
Lord have mercy on us and His Church
Pray for me
Peter
Just an update for those concerned or following this thread: our efforts are moving along. Many of us have been in touch with our bishops on this issue, and we've started a website and an FB, though things are still early yet.
Check 'em out!
http://returntoorthodoxy.com/
https://www.facebook.com/returntoorthodoxy
Please show your support and most importantly, pray for this service.
Glory to God who has given us strength and a new way to shine our Orthodox light in the world.
God bless you for your commitment and effort. There is another pan-Oriental Orthodox group that shares the vision of your group. It is called oneorthodox.org. Take a look at this video: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=155491327980732&set=vb.100005595967480&type=2&theater
Glory to God who has given us strength and a new way to shine our Orthodox light in the world.
Remnkemi,
All the background songs on the facebook page clip of one orthodox are protestant songs. I don’t know what that says about the organization as a whole since I don’t know much about it. But it will be nice to get some clarifications.
Also there are other things that are concerning on their website: http://www.oneorthodox.org/
In Christ
Theophilus
[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=10538.msg165501#msg165501 date=1375293187]
God bless you for your commitment and effort. There is another pan-Oriental Orthodox group that shares the vision of your group. It is called oneorthodox.org. Take a look at this video: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=155491327980732&set=vb.100005595967480&type=2&theater
Glory to God who has given us strength and a new way to shine our Orthodox light in the world.
Remnkemi,
All the background songs on the facebook page clip of one orthodox are protestant songs. I don’t know what that says about the organization as a whole since I don’t know much about it. But it will be nice to get some clarifications.
Also there are other things that are concerning on their website: http://www.oneorthodox.org/
In Christ
Theophilus
This is an excellent point, Theophilus. I agree wholeheartedly. It is wonderful that people are working for Orthodox unity, but our unity must be based entirely in Orthodoxy, and that means not only Faith but practice. Protestant songs and a Protestant approach to worship cannot and should not be used as a way to bridge any perceived gaps relative to rite or culture.
Are more details available? What is the itinerary of events for the day? Is so-called "praise & worship" music at all a part of the agenda? I sincerely hope and pray that it is not.
Asking Your Prayers,
A.N.
We are now starting to add articles/videos/etc. to the website we created to address this issue: http://returntoorthodoxy.com/
There's also a facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/returntoorthodoxy
Please pray for this service and for the preservation of Orthodox Faith and practice in our Church.
A.N.
Brothers & Sisters,
We are now starting to add articles/videos/etc. to the website we created to address this issue: http://returntoorthodoxy.com/
There's also a facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/returntoorthodoxy
Please pray for this service and for the preservation of Orthodox Faith and practice in our Church.
A.N.
I really enjoyed the talk by Fr. Daoud Lamey that is posted on your site. Is he in the States or is he in Egypt?
Thanks for visiting the site. We'll try to post new stuff as often as possible.
Abouna Dawoud is in Egypt, but it would be great if we could bring him to the States for a youth conference on upholding Orthodox Faith and practice.
Please pray for this service.
A.N.
my beloved, let us open our minds a little...
I agree.
But AN is not advocating closed-mindedness; see this video: http://returntoorthodoxy.com/dawood-lamey-faith-orthodox-church/ David also offered burnt offerings and whole burnt offerings. Do you do this? In any case, instruments are far from the main issue here, particularly if you read Fr Peter's contributions to this thread. I doubt it, since angels are spirits, and instruments are physical. In any case, the only thing this proves is that musical instruments are not sinful, which is already clear in the many Orthodox people who are musicians and play (godly) secular music. The question is, "Are instruments appropriate for humans, not angels, to worship God?" Since St Paul the Uptight commanded us to hold fast to the Tradition. I don't mean small 't' local traditions of the Church in Egypt, but rather the universal Tradition of the Orthodox Church. The Orthodox Church in America, which is completely made up of American converts, who have nothing to do with Egypt, or Greece, or Russia, do not worship like this. Of course, like Nestorius, the Patriarch of Constantinople, himself stopped the spread of the Nestorian heresy. In any case, there is nothing wrong with choirs - there is a choir in the liturgy itself. A (religious) song written by a Protestant, which naturally reflects Protestant beliefs. Of course, that is stating the obvious. But a song of praise could be praising God, or Satan, or one's ego, etc... Even a song of praise to God, as Protestant songs undoubtedly are, may be acceptable praise or unacceptable praise. Just like Cain's offering was unacceptable, while Abel's was. And since you referenced King David earlier, he says in the Psalms, "Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be ACCEPTABLE in your sight O Lord". So clearly not all praise/prayer/meditation is acceptable by the mere fact that it is praise/prayer/meditation. A song consists of words and music. The two are inseparable. Lyrics and music working together is the very definition of music and it is what makes a good song. The musician's message, then, can be communicated through both the words and the music. If only the words fully express the musician's message, then why would he bother himself with the music at all? Do you watch a movie without the sound? Or do you watch a movie without the background music? Of course not, as to do so would detract from the experience, as some of the meaning, contained in the background music itself, would be lost.
my beloved, let us open our minds a little... david used an instrument, even the angels used instruments... since when are we so uptight?! if its effecting the church in her dogma, then the pope himself would have stopped choirs to perform in the church before his sermons... what is a protestant song?! a song of praise is a song of praise, worry about the words and thats it.
Worry about words and that's it? Excellent idea. When I decide to propose, I will send a text message that says, "Marry Me." Better yet, let me burp those words out to my fiancee over dinner (sure to charm her.)
"The Medium is the Message" - Marshal McLuhan.
The way you say something is a message on its own.
my beloved, let us open our minds a little...
Watch the video by Fr Dawood Lamie. He was offended when the question he read claimed the Coptic Orthodox church is "closed-minded". Nothing could be farther from the truth. We are not closed-minded, we are holding on to the faith we received. The idea that holding on to an ancient tradition (small "t" or big "T"), automatically makes a person closed-minded, antiquated, non-progressive, (or any other prejorative description) is foolish. I'm not attacking you BAM. I'm attacking the attitude that continuously creeps up. qawe responded to the idea of the angels. They didn't use instruments. They used their voices and it shook the temple (Isaiah 6). But it is irrelevant what angels do or don't do. If you read the other article on returntoorthodoxy.org, there is a great explanation of the spiritual meaning and place of music. If you're talking about liturgical deacon choirs, deacon choirs are not evangelical charismatic choirs. If there is another type of choir that is Orthodox in nature, then there is no problem. I don't know what exactly happens before the Pope's sermons. If you read a few pages back on this thread, Pope Shenouda and the Synod did prohibit the use of musical choirs with lavish instruments (pipes, organs, drums, etc). Pope Tawadros also commented on the use of proper worship. The truth is evangelical worship is effecting the Orthodox Church dogma. It dilutes the message of Orthodoxy and introduces many Protestant and heretical dogmas in the most subtle and covert ways. The trend now is to openly approve and allow a sort of hybrid Coptic-Protestant evangelical worship type and attitude. When we let our guard down like this and stop "holding fast to the doctrine we were given", we automatically approve of heterodox doctrine (like salvation in a moment, the eccentric use of "I" praise instead of what Jesus is or does (i.e., an ego-centered worship instead of Trinitarian-centered worship), and an emotionally focused worship instead of a worship that leads to repentance and a worship given by heavenly revelation.) The list goes on and on.
My Brothers ReturnOrthodoxy, Qawe, and Remnkemi have already articulated excellent responses which I suggest you read thoroughly and consider. I would add only the following.
[quote author=✞SuperMAN✞(BAM)✞ link=topic=10538.msg165618#msg165618 date=1376273118]
my beloved, let us open our minds a little...
We are open-minded. This is why allowing for cultural variance in worship is an integral part of the Orthodox ethos and approach to mission. Look at the unity in diversity of the Oriental Orthodox Communion. But notice also that the various churches of the Oriental Orthodox Communion are part of the One True Church and their various liturgical rites, however diverse, are rooted firmly in precisely the same theological understanding of worship. All Orthodox worship is Theocentric and not anthropocentric, reverential and not intended as entertainment. We are open-minded, yes, but not so “open-minded” that we are ready to accept anything and everything under the sun, even that which contradicts our Faith, and allow those who would do so to use the unity in diversity of Oriental Orthodoxy as a smokescreen for the inclusion of “praise & worship” practices rooted in a heterodox ethos. This would be completely disingenuous.
Also, please do take the advice of your brothers here and see how Abouna Dawood responds to the same accusation of close-mindedness on the part of the Orthodox:
http://returntoorthodoxy.com/dawood-lamey-faith-orthodox-church/
[quote author=✞SuperMAN✞(BAM)✞ link=topic=10538.msg165618#msg165618 date=1376273118]david used an instrument, even the angels used instruments...
Others have already addressed the points concerning angels and King David. I would like to add, however, the words of St. John Chrysostom (may his blessing be with us all, amen):
“David formerly sang songs, also today we sing hymns. He had a lyre with lifeless strings, the church has a lyre with living strings. Our tongues are the strings of the lyre with a different tone indeed but much more in accordance with piety. Here there is no need for the cithara, or for stretched strings, or for the plectrum, or for art, or for any instrument; but, if you like, you may yourself become a cithara, mortifying the members of the flesh and making a full harmony of mind and body. For when the flesh no longer lusts against the Spirit, but has submitted to its orders and has been led at length into the best and most admirable path, then will you create a spiritual melody.”
“God allowed those instruments, then, for this reason: because of their weakness, and because he wanted to temper them in love and harmony… For knowing their thoughtlessness, laziness, and carelessness, God wished to arouse them by the stratagem, blending the sweetness of melody in with the effort of paying attention.”
[quote author=✞SuperMAN✞(BAM)✞ link=topic=10538.msg165618#msg165618 date=1376273118]since when are we so uptight?!
Again, please see the Abouna Dawood video. Standing for Orthodoxy in Faith and practice is not being uptight.
What is the alternative? Do we say, along with this fellow (http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/02/fusing-orthodox-and-pentecostal-worship.html) that there is a, “time to be reverential and a time to party with Jesus”?
These folks also accuse those who declare them to be outside of the true Church or question their practices of being close-minded.
"I'm the church. You're the church," Father Jacob Givens thundered in his homily one Sunday. "We're the church."
[quote author=✞SuperMAN✞(BAM)✞ link=topic=10538.msg165618#msg165618 date=1376273118]if its effecting the church in her dogma
It is affecting the Church and her dogma. As others have pointed out, the medium is the message. Evangelical and Charismatic “praise & worship” songs are natural expressions of the theological traditions of those churches, traditions which are totally at odds with Orthodox Christianity.
We can already see the effects. Some Coptic Churches which employ these songs also employ books by Rick Warren and other Protestant authors in their study groups and other meetings.
[quote author=✞SuperMAN✞(BAM)✞ link=topic=10538.msg165618#msg165618 date=1376273118] , then the pope himself would have stopped choirs to perform in the church before his sermons...[/
He has and did. Unfortunately, we’re not enforcing it. His Holiness Pope Shenouda III of thrice-blessed memory warned specifically against music as a means of spreading Protestant influence and theology in June of 1998.
The Coptic Orthodox Holy Synod also declared in May of 2005 that “No Protestant chorals [singing] and no unorthodox prayers are allowed in Orthodox churches”
This is why we need to bring this matter to the attention of our Fathers the Bishops and insist that the decisions of our Holy Synod be enforced and not ignored.
[quote author=✞SuperMAN✞(BAM)✞ link=topic=10538.msg165618#msg165618 date=1376273118]what is a protestant song?! a song of praise is a song of praise, worry about the words and thats it.
No, my brother. In point of fact, a musical form can, in and of itself, be an expression of a certain theological tradition. As the Orthodox scholar and theologian, Professor Harry Boosalis of St. Tikhon’s Orthodox Seminary writes,
"According to the Orthodox Faith, the teachings and traditions one upholds and believes in will necessarily influence and inform one's spiritual orientation and the way one worships..."
In other words, certain musical forms can be and are inherently “Protestant” or “Orthodox”; they are not merely shells to be filled with denomination-specific content, but rather the forms themselves are outgrowths of a given theological approach and perspective.
What did St. Athanasius say about the "songs of praise and worship" of Arius? Did he merely attack the lyrics? No, he also attacked their worldly form. For the great Saint (may his prayers be with us), the two went together!
"For what beseemed him more, when he would dance forth against the Savior, than to throw his wretched words of irreligion into dissolute and loose metres? That, while 'a man', as Wisdom says, 'is known from the utterance of his word', so from those numbers should be seen the writer's effeminate soul and corruption of thought."
I would also truly suggest another read of Remnkemi's response on this point. A choir of deacons is one thing. I'm quite sure that no Coptic Orthodox Pope has ever had a so-called "praise & worship" band perform before any of his sermons.
Deleted. I posted a sneak peek of my article on this topic, but decided to keep it for completion.
Ray, what a tease!! >:(
If you're not going to post it here than you MUST work day and night to complete it for our edification.
Arrive
Raise Hell
Leave
or does it suit me
you talk but you have no power to make any changes
How will you put me on the right path since maybe your God is afraid of scaring me with the concept that some will not be saved who are not perfectly orthodox and He does not like to reveal that straight away so He is going to leave me in hell without any practical solutions or warning me
do you insist that salvation or advice can not be found on these forums but a priest so do you judge the maker of this site but I think Pope Shenouda himself I am guessing may have gave it his approval as he did CYC and how does one find exactly the priest for you? so I must submit to my FOC whims who puts burdens hard to bear and will not move them with one of his fingers but my FOC did not overburden me but he was too lenient to me and often cancelled my meetings he had little concern for me but thought I was overly righteous. Should I submit to a FOC's suicidal non practical advices and hypocritical which he does not do himself as he is not in my situation? denying the need for a tutor to complete uni or denying the need to study or that non christians have feelings when you show no respect towards them and be religious in their face instead of study. Non christians may have no problem with going to church but only after study has been done instead of looking like you do not appreciate them and just use them without working at all. Bible commands to work for your masters edification
they also tell you to go to church on sunday when that might be an important time making no excuses sometimes
My FOC thought I was too skinny I should watch tv if I want to socialise since he knew I confessed that too often that I was sad that I can not socialise with the other youth he did not smile when I said I wanted to be a monk but he did not disapprove either I did not give him a chance to let him tell me after university you can try to be one but he probably would have said that eventually but he probably thought I would not finish. Maybe because I am sudanese and he is egyptian and he only wants to help egyptian. My FOC often forgot my name and what I was doing. Nearly all priests I meet do that
It is clear that priests want to put a lot of responsiblity on their sons and do not even say they are doing that. . He said you are responsible for only yourself I am responsible for all
He said to me sometimes he is tired and wants to go to sleep as he has been up all day. He was worried what he would hear from me in confession that it will trouble him though he did not say that. He did not want to see my big list of things I want to confess
Why do we see priests who themselves may be damned so how can they lead us. My FOC may very well have hated me because I wanted to be his friend when he knows very well the relationship between FOC and son is serious and only for the serious who do not care about offending others
Coptic Orthodox Pope Opens Investigation into Protestant-Influenced DC area Churches
After receiving complaints from bishops, priests, and servants about a so-called “New Age Orthodoxy” movement in the Washington, DC area which incorporates Evangelical and Charismatic theology, materials and so-called “praise & worship” music into the life of the Coptic Orthodox Church, H.H. Pope Tawadros II of Alexandria has appointed a committee of three bishops to investigate the matter. Originally from the 5 April edition of the Coptic Orthodox Church’s official publication, el-Keraza magazine.
HIS GRACE ANBA MICHAEL
His Grace was ordained a bishop in the feast of Pentecost June 7, 2009 by the late Pope Shenouda III to oversee the Copts in eight American states that would have been a new diocese that would have been called Mid-South Atlantic. We have an official letter signed by His Holiness Pope Shenouda to this effect, signed, sealed and dated August 20, 2009, less than three months after the ordination of Bishop Michael.
However, due to the health problems that beset His Holiness in the last years, nothing was done about it. It should be noted that Anba Michael served this area for more than thirty years when he was a monk by the name of Hegoumen Shenouda el-Baramousy, and his service is well attested to, besides the fact that his presence and service in the area is older than any of the priests in these eight states.
Following the enthronement of His Holiness Pope Tawadros II in November, 2012, several complaints came to him from bishops, priests and servants about the rise of a non-Orthodox way of service in some of the churches in this area and their meetings, which they called “New Age Orthodoxy”. This is probably due to lack of study or lack of knowledge or maybe lack of diligence in following the pure dogma, and possibly other factors as being influenced by some Western churches that have a creed that is contrary to our Orthodox faith. There were also non-Orthodox practices in some of our Coptic churches in those areas which the fathers the priests and those responsible for the purity of the teaching there did not stand up against.
A serious stand had to be made, therefore His Holiness appointed a committee from three bishops, one from Egypt, one from the Southern USA and one from South Africa to study the situation on the ground. The committee traveled there in February 2013 and met several times with the priests, the board members and the servants as well as those of different inclinations. The committee returned and presented a report to His Holiness in March 10, 2013 and His Holiness studied that report in preparation for taking the appropriate decision soon.
It should be noted that His Holiness is responsible for all diocese through the priests (of areas that do not have a bishop) until they become a diocese under the guidance of a bishop. For an area to be directly under His Holiness the Pope is untenable and undesirable due to the spread of the see and its services. As an example, His holiness appointed His Grace Anba Kirillos, bishop of Milan as a Papal vicar to help him in the service of all of Europe.
To be fair, there are other churches outside the Washington DC area that are engaging in similar practices. In addition, there are plenty of lay people who, even though they don't have these practices in their own churches, condone these practices and believe that such practices are important for the Church to grow. It's sort of a secret society of disgruntled parishioners who believe outside practices should come into the Church, rather than inside practices preaching out to the world.
Nonetheless, Pope Tawadros has shown he is faithful to Traditional Orthodox practice and theology. Kurie vulatte aftwn icpolla ety decpota May the Lord keep our master for many years.
Wow. This is good. This is a good first step.
To be fair, there are other churches outside the Washington DC area that are engaging in similar practices. In addition, there are plenty of lay people who, even though they don't have these practices in their own churches, condone these practices and believe that such practices are important for the Church to grow. It's sort of a secret society of disgruntled parishioners who believe outside practices should come into the Church, rather than inside practices preaching out to the world.
Nonetheless, Pope Tawadros has shown he is faithful to Traditional Orthodox practice and theology. Kurie vulatte aftwn icpolla ety decpota May the Lord keep our master for many years.
Amen and Amen. May God give our Pope and Patriarch the strength and resolve to accomplish this task as thoroughly and as speedily as possible. There will always be malcontents, but so long as our Patriarch and Synod are steadfast, the misguided ambitions of those preaching or condoning heterodoxy and heresy will come to naught. May God disperse their council as he dispersed the council of Ahitophel.
ReturnOrthodoxy
To suggest orthodox can not listen to protestant music in their own time and enjoy it seems extreme to me and not christian but we need to confess orthodoxy as the true faith
would you not agree that the best place to present orthodoxy as non extreme and christian is in their meetings or how will they learn of it? do you want to present orthodoxy as a hard way of life and does not allow having a presence in the world? I agree such meetings do not help people consider orthodoxy that is because your orthodoxy is not a powerful faith to those who are not true believers in orthodoxy. If it was really the truth you would be allowed to go anywhere? especially if it is the only truth to salvation as some of you think
or where is another place they can learn of it if not in their meetings? I guess their meetings is probably the worst place to present orthodoxy so we should avoid those meetings
Even I condemn your going to protestant meetings if you can have no influence on them and I condemn your lack of ability to prove the faith to the worst of sinners like me which need to be rescued if even by miracles. Does not such difficult times like this demand miracles from Christ if only orthodox people can be saved? how is it that your God has no compassion towards non orthodox who want to follow Jesus but do not know the way? and appears too difficult and many obstacles? but those protestants who are convinced orthodoxy is certainly truth must join it and they also need to be open minded to it. They have to have a valid reason to reject orthodoxy. If they do not know it is wrong 100% then let them stop judging or they may not be saved
any faith which teaches you to be non compassionate to those outside and which makes people feel despair is a defiled religion and faith. Your church has a lot to answer for you do not even acknowledge eastern orthodox as saved or they have not acknowledged you for why would you need to chrismate them. You can reject unity if some of what eastern orthodox do is wrong
Or if you do acknowledge them as saved why not accept some protestants also?
and what are you doing to evangelise to the whole world?