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I feel like an Orthodox in my church among Protestants
I have a HUGE problem with guitars.......
Every week in sunday school someone will pull out a guitar and the class will start singing some weird English song!
Even during prayer meetings, someone is playing a piano and they're singing and one time they started to clap to the beat!
This is really annoying! I've asked one of my servants about it and he was like "oh we are praising God" and then he completely ignored me!!
Are any other churches doing this? Is this wrong? Am i overreacting?
If I see another guitar I will smash it over someones head! :D
But seriously though, Guitars Suck!
This is a "rap remix" of rashi ne
Every week in sunday school someone will pull out a guitar and the class will start singing some weird English song!
Even during prayer meetings, someone is playing a piano and they're singing and one time they started to clap to the beat!
This is really annoying! I've asked one of my servants about it and he was like "oh we are praising God" and then he completely ignored me!!
Are any other churches doing this? Is this wrong? Am i overreacting?
If I see another guitar I will smash it over someones head! :D
But seriously though, Guitars Suck!
This is a "rap remix" of rashi ne
Comments
Father Peter
My exact words to the servant was
"I refuse to partake in this form of protestant worship"... i think he thinks I was kidding.... I hope he sees this post!
I have personally discussed this issue with those who feel the need to ruin our beautiful church with this nonsense, and while I respect their zeal, they lack respect for the true church and are inadvertantly seeking to undermine her. What they are doing will eventually water down the faith of those in our church by saying that protestantism is ok, is saying that you just have to believe and thats it. Introducing foreign worship into our church only opens the door to the false doctrines of these churches, by accepting their worship, we are saying their doctrines are Orthodox as well. If anyone has read my book then they know that both Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide are NOT Orthodox in any way shape or form, but rather are heresy.
For the songs: print off enough copies of your favorite spiritual songs from tasbeha.org.. possibly "My Coptic Church" or "My Fathers the Monks" ;)
I am afraid of talking to my FOC, because (this part is a hoot).... He's played guitar for about 13 years, and I think he would be against my cause :(
TITL: I tried the cymbals thing once last year lol.....They took them from me...
I can't think of anything other than crazy-glueing the cymbals to your hands so they don't take them from you...
Maybe I am a prophet.
A prophet is never accepted in his own forum (city). [You can see the Biblical correlate.]
But there is a difference to listening to someone who has composed a thoughtful and reflective song about their faith, or about a saint, or about God, and allowing the worship of the Church to be unwittingly compromised.
It is the case that many modern songs represent a defective theology or spirituality, but the melodies are also often inappropriate to periods of Orthodox worship. They generally intend to inspire emotion rather than reflection.
I would certainly ban all Protestant songs and tunes and the use of instruments in any corporate worship. The place of modern Orthodox songs (and I mean entirely Orthodox in content) needs to be carefully considered. The danger, it seems to me, is of producing trite and superficial words, and using emotional tunes. I am not against serious and theologically rich modern songs with appropriate and sober tunes.
If someone were to read any of St Severus' hymns, translated into English prose, they still retain their immense power, and even as prose they contain a wonderful poetry. They are serious songs for mature Christians. I think we perhaps need songs that are as accurate and meaningful. It is a mistake to simply copy Evangelical Protestant practice. Indeed there are traditions which seem to me to be much more appropriate for non-liturgical Orthodox use, such as some of the Taize songs.
Father Peter
Nice points Fr. Peter.
And if they take away the cymbals, that's all the more reason to bring in a capella chants. The monks of the Monastery of St. Antony in the California desert did a wonderful CD of midnight praises a few years ago that would be a wonderful thing to encourage instead. Maybe not those particular prayers (I don't know how this works...would it be appropriate to say these outside of the midnight service?), but something like that is better than what you're being subjected to. You can listen to them for free on the monastery's website via the following link: http://www.stantonymonastery.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=85:english-midnight-praise&catid=26:audio&Itemid=3
There is just no reason for what is going on at your church. I put up with it for years in the Catholic Church (I usually got the response that Latin Mass was available on X day at X church, if I was so unhappy...totally missing the point!) and it is incredibly distressing that the same Protestantism that is rampant in the RC might also be making its way into the Orthodox Church. No! The key is to stop it wherever and whenever you can. If it already has a foothold it's so much harder. You are doing good by bringing your concerns to your FOC. I pray that he hears you.
Incidentally, I've played guitar for 16 years and have never once thought of bringing it to church! I guess I differ from Father Peter a bit on this point...guitar is certainly not "bad" (or at least I hope not, or I'm in trouble), but there is a certain danger in having instrumental songs be about performance and beauty of melody rather than internal reflection that the best church music (instrumental or not) inspires. So it's best to stick to whatever your church's traditional instruments are, which in the case of the Coptic Church (and every other church I've ever heard of) is not the guitar.
Please forgive me
+ sister in Christ +
I personally do not enjoy any instruments except the cymbals and triangle, but this a cultural preference more than a faith issue. The real issue is the origin, content and the melody (rythem) of the protestant songs (hereafter referred to as garbage).
Abanoub,
If you are a kid surrounded by these protestant services, do not attend and escape the council of the wicked for your salvation. It is a positive sign that you have developed a distaste for this garbage. You have the right not to participate and to admonish your ignorant servant.
You cannot argue your case with the servants who allow this garbage because they have different standards than you do. Save your energy and enjoy orthodox fellowship somewhere else.
When you become a servant, isolate your kids from this garbage by educating them on the integrity of orthodox worship and its necessary role in salvation.
Those of us that have converted are able to testify to our own experiences. We know what we are talking about.
Simply because a song mentions Jesus doesn't mean that it is Christian. It may be the worst type of heresy, or it might be damaging to a proper Christian spirituality.
Dzheremi, I agree with you entirely about the dangers of the performance aspect. But I do think that I probably think that Orthodox and traditional Christian societies have created songs using their own positive traditions. Even in Egypt it is the case that the early Church created Orthodox songs using current folk tunes so that they could propagandise the truth. There are necessary, and in the present time even very strict limits to this. But I do have some favourite Christian styles of music which I do not think are necessarily unhelpful. Generally a very simple folk style which supports the poetry of the lyrics rather than taking attention away from them. The danger, it seems to me, even in such a style, is the creation of a sentimental emotionalism which is not the same as spirituality at all.
I am trying to leave open the door to some possibilities without making anything go. We don't need Orthodox pop stars. And we don't need Orthodox pop songs. But English and Western European carols for instance, were generally popular Christian hymns and not sung in Church during liturgical settings. In later Western periods they had a rudimentary musical accompaniment.
Lol! Sorry I am not trying to advocate anything. I love the unaccompanied human voice. But things like the harp have been used to accompany Christian songs, yet in a rhythmic manner rather than by dominating the song. I don't want to be absolute.
Just please, we should not ape modern Evangelical songs and performance values.
Father Peter
In a modern charismatic church, generally speaking, if you are feeling happy and everything is going fine then lots of music and singing and dancing is great. There are lots of good emotions and feelings. It is a bit like a party, or taking part in an exciting musical event. (I am sure that there is an intention to worship God but I do believe that the music and emotions get in the way of this and unwittingly become an aim and an end in themselves.) To much Protestant worship is like being at a concert and singing along to very familiar and popular songs. I KNOW, I HAVE BEEN THERE MYSELF. It is very exciting to be with hundreds of other people, to be singing loudly together, to have an electric band encouraging things along.
But the trouble with all of this, as many of us who have converted can testify, is that if you are struggling with sin, if you are facing many problems, if you are experiencing the Dark Night of the Soul, then there is usually nothing in such worship for you. Indeed I have been in places where the person who is not clapping and not waving their hands in the air is pointed out by the one leading worship as if they are not making the grade.
Orthodox worship is different. The emotions are engaged of course, but our worship is not emotional. There is space both for the one who is joyful and the one who is weeping. And the hymns and prayers are serious, leading our hearts and minds to heaven, rather than only stirring the emotions. No-one is excluded. And in proper liturgy there is a quiet space for the still, small voice of God to be heard.
We do not need to make our liturgies, or our prayers exciting or emotional. This is like the difference between the romance of an engagement and the lasting, solid love of a marriage. The excitement will not help a couple through the difficult and dark days. Nor will an emotional worship support and strengthen us in the trials we must face each day.
Let us flee from such worship. Even without meaning to, it leads us away from Orthodoxy.
Father Peter
Generally a very simple folk style which supports the poetry of the lyrics rather than taking attention away from them. The danger, it seems to me, even in such a style, is the creation of a sentimental emotionalism which is not the same as spirituality at all.
I agree with you, Father Peter, but then the question becomes: Where do you draw the line? If the subjective emotional experience is to determine what is acceptable (e.g., sentimentality is bad, but seriousness is not), then whose emotions are we talking about -- mine or yours? A great deal of the worship that you mentioned in your last post (evangelical "rock concert" style) was foisted upon me as a child, and I never liked it or felt emotionally engaged with it. That lack of an emotional response wouldn't make it okay to engage in, though. (I know this is not the point you were trying to make; I'm just trying to advocate the same point from a different perspective.)
For instance, here is a song performed by a priest-martyr of the Chaldean Catholic Church, where he accompanies himself on the guitar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPDIwcJORFg
The lyrics are clear (though I don't understand much of it, because my Arabic is quite poor and basic), so if this has orthodox lyrical content (rewrite it in your head, if you need to), would this be acceptable? I take your point about native melodies and instruments, but I don't know what's native to the Assyro-Chaldeans about the guitar...
It certainly is emotionally affecting (especially in light of Fr. Ghanni's martyrdom), but I don't find myself crying or waving my arms over it. I guess I'm a robot (or, more positively, a bad evangelical!).
I wonder if there is a difference between the non-liturgical performance of musically accompanied poetry (as it were) and the introduction of evangelical style songs to be sung as worship?
I guess I am scrabbling to describe the possibility of a culture which has been Christianised and bears the Gospel in some sense outside of the liturgical context. I think of some of the Christian poetry in English for instance. But this is different to allowing the passing culture of the world around us, however much we participate in it, to modify, let alone compromise, the liturgical culture.
Father Peter
is this even allowed? i read somewhere that we can only use cymbals and triangles during services. this rule is for all orthodox church, not just copts.
I don't think this is true. In the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church, a member of the non-Chalcedonian Orthodox communion, traditional instruments like the begena (harp), washint (flute), and kebero (drum) are used.
Begena in Orthodox mezmur and very beautiful Ethiopian Orthodox icons (note to potential YT video makers: This is what an Orthodox video should look like!)
Another Orthodox mezmur with washint, kebero, etc.
The liturgical recordings of the Ethiopian Church that I have are very sparse, but some do feature kebero in parts on occasion.
[quote author=DimyanCoptic link=topic=10538.msg128107#msg128107 date=1295989224]
is this even allowed? i read somewhere that we can only use cymbals and triangles during services. this rule is for all orthodox church, not just copts.
I don't think this is true. In the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church, a member of the non-Chalcedonian Orthodox communion, traditional instruments like the begena (harp), washint (flute), and kebero (drum) are used.
Begena in Orthodox mezmur and very beautiful Ethiopian Orthodox icons (note to potential YT video makers: This is what an Orthodox video should look like!)
Another Orthodox mezmur with washint, kebero, etc.
The liturgical recordings of the Ethiopian Church that I have are very sparse, but some do feature kebero in parts on occasion.
There were integrated into Liturgical worship and have the same purpose as cymbals. In liturgical worship the sisturn, which is Jewish from Jewish liturgy and drums are used. There are several church songs using different instruments but these are not used in liturgical worship. Comparing these with protestant rock bands is not a very good comparison. Protestant instruments are used to envoke a certain feeling or atmosphere while our instruments are used to keep timing. In the EOTC timing is of utmost importance for the singer, their singing style is a rather difficult one and it is often times difficult to keep timing. We are not rocking out for Christ.
All of the youth in my church have the local christian radio on in their cars. protestant songs are just all that we have when we wanna listen to English music.
[quote author=dzheremi link=topic=10538.msg128121#msg128121 date=1295991980]
[quote author=DimyanCoptic link=topic=10538.msg128107#msg128107 date=1295989224]
is this even allowed? i read somewhere that we can only use cymbals and triangles during services. this rule is for all orthodox church, not just copts.
I don't think this is true. In the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church, a member of the non-Chalcedonian Orthodox communion, traditional instruments like the begena (harp), washint (flute), and kebero (drum) are used.
Begena in Orthodox mezmur and very beautiful Ethiopian Orthodox icons (note to potential YT video makers: This is what an Orthodox video should look like!)
Another Orthodox mezmur with washint, kebero, etc.
The liturgical recordings of the Ethiopian Church that I have are very sparse, but some do feature kebero in parts on occasion.
There were integrated into Liturgical worship and have the same purpose as cymbals. In liturgical worship the sisturn, which is Jewish from Jewish liturgy and drums are used. There are several church songs using different instruments but these are not used in liturgical worship. Comparing these with protestant rock bands is not a very good comparison. Protestant instruments are used to envoke a certain feeling or atmosphere while our instruments are used to keep timing. In the EOTC timing is of utmost importance for the singer, their singing style is a rather difficult one and it is often times difficult to keep timing. We are not rocking out for Christ.
Ah, I apologize. I see now that I've misread the original post. I didn't catch the "during services" bit. Yes, yes...in liturgical worship the other instruments besides kebero and the cistern (thanks, Ioannes...I couldn't remember the name) are not used.
There is another post i commented on a while back that was about this same topic. PLz father Peter read this and respond.
IM very surprised with the closed mentality that we have in our church. We say that clapping is wrong as is written in the first reply of this post. Incorrect!!!! the bible says clap your hands oh you nations!
We say that dancing ( to praise God is wrong ) Incorrect once again!! DAVID THE PROPHET AND KING danced in front of the tabernacle of the LORD!!!! i agree that any other form of dancing is wrong. i wont even attend my brothers wedding if he has dancing and thank god he wont. But we must be open minded. People in other countries only know how to praise god with dancing is that a sin??
Whats wrong with singing any song to praise Our LORD!!! unless it is proven that theyre discussing theology and are saying wrong things. And yet MOST OF THE SONGS WE SING ARE NOT INCORRECT THEOLOGICALLY. WE have such a muslim mentality!!!!!!!!! all we think about is protestant kokhh muslim kokkhh catholic only half kokkh!! what is this?? what have we come to as orthodox christians???
You know Father abouna Sorial Said a joke once.
He said a man died and went to heaven and as the angel was showing him through they passed by three doors. the first door was the protestants and the angel and the man continued to talk. They passed by the second door and it was the catholics and the angel and the man continued to speak with each other. They passed by the third door and the angel commanded the man to stop speaking. THe man afterwards asked why the angel had told him to stop speaking. The angel replied and said that the third door had the coptic orthodox people in it and they THINK that theyre the only ones here!! WHY DO WE THINK THIS???? why are we coptics the only ones getting to heaven along with the followers of five other churches??? IS CHRIST ONLY FOR US OR THE ORDTHODX??}??? i
IM EXTREMELY DISSAPOINTED IN THE METHOD OF THINKING WE HAVE!!!
THERE is nothing NOTHING NOTHING wrong with singing songs!! protestant or not!! as a matter of fact!! i love coptic hymnology and i spent my life learning it and i dont go one day without learning or listening to a new hymn or anyhting of the sort!! and YET I LISTEN TO A PROTESTANT SONG EVERY SINGLE DAY?? u wanna call me non orthodox?? who is to say that theyre praise isnt excepted more than ours!! cuz as we praise we praise with pride and say only our songs!! but when u listen to protestant songs they sing with humility and sing and dont mind learning about other hymnologies and songs and ideas WE HAVE CLOSED MINDS!!! u know we have the song of all nations!! does any one here truly believe its of all nations that will go to heaven or are we believers by mouth??? WHO are we to say that this is wrong or right??? u and i may have the talent for hymnology or our mostly boring and depsressing egyptian taraneem which i love and yet they do have a sense of depressing tune to them others dont have that talent!! WHY DENY THEM THE RIGHT TO PRAISE GOD BECAUSE THEY LISTEN TO PROTESTANT SONGS!! these songs have brought me an orthodox son closer to god than any of the orthodox songs you speak of!!!
With all due respect to father Peter and the rest of my brothers who have posted, we must open our minds!! is clapping wrong?? dare anyone say that it is wrong?? the man after gods own heart david the king clapped and danced for god!! these things occur when someone is sooo close to god and feels THE FIRE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT DWELLING IN THEM THAT THEY MAY JUMP FOR JOY! why deny them that burning intensity for god!! ??? we will be judged for that!! IM VERRY VERRYY VERYYY HAPPY that our churches are starting to open up for the sake of the youthhh!!!
WHY ARE SOO MANY OF OUR YOUTH LOSTT????? because althought you and i may love hymnology. THEY DONT. as much as i love coptic 99.99999999999 percent of our "Coptic"CHURCh do not understand a word!!! so why would they listen to it??? why would our youth listen to taraneem that bore them and show them how to be depressed instead of earthly songs that make them jump and stuff. i love our taraneem and some of them bring me to tears because of their beauty and yet why do we as servants and priests and deacons make CHRIST THE SIMPLEST AND MOST HUMBLE so difficult for people to reach??? do they have to know christ our way?? or does christ have different callings and different ways to touch everyone???? WHO ARE WE??? why are we taking gods place and telling people to worship a certain way??? I PROMISE TO YOU THAT GOD ACCEPTS THEIR PRAISE MORE THAN US!!!
we are a judgemental people and a congregation full of pride because we think that were the best and because our church has been discriminiated against we take pride in it very much, which isnt wrong, but we go too far to the point where everyone else is wrong to us!! that is not christs methods!!
PRAY for me and forgive me
Danny
WHy are we only allowed to sing songs about OUR COPTIC CHURCH??? or our FATHERS??? WHAT ABOUT THE BLOOD OF CHRIST??? WHAT ABOUT MY RELATIONSHIP WITH THE LORD JESUS ?? WHAT ABOUT GETTING TO KNOW HIM AND HIS POWER AND HIS LOVE??? WHAT IS WRONG WITH SONGS OF THAT NATURE??? WHY IS IT ALWAYS THE CHURCH THE CHURCH???? the church is christs bride it is our gift from god. We are part of the body of christ and the church!! BUT THE PLANT WITHOUT ROOTS IS DEAD!!!!!! SO IS THE BODY WITHOUT CHRIST!!!!! SO IS THE CHURCH!!!!!!! IF YOU AND I DO NOT PRAISE GOD the churchw ill be dead!!!!!! all of our fathers teachings are FIERY!!!! they burn with a love for OUR TRINITARIAN GOD!!!!!!!! but all we worry about is the church!! and defending the church!! i gurantee that if we worry about our relationship with christ instead of the church church church WE will be better church emmbers!!! but we dont know christ to our best ability because all WE WORRY ABOUT IS THE ORTHODOX WAY AND THE CHURCH AND THE RITES OF OUR CHURCH!!! i lvoe theese things. I SPEND DAYS AWAKE learning and listening and understanding and i can go to a liturgy and spend hours and not complain. dont think of me as a person who doesnt love the church!! but WE AS A COPTIC CONGREGATION HAVE FORGOTTEN what it is to be a CHRISTian instead of a CHRUCHian.
these protestant people who love genuinly and sing genuinly from their hearts will be better off than we are in the end of days!! because we condemn them and they love us back. we judge them and they love us back!! who has done more of christs commandements in this scenario us or them???
No. So don't do it. It really is that simple.