[quote author=coptic boy777 link=topic=10538.msg128689#msg128689 date=1296222102] [quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10538.msg128660#msg128660 date=1296197718] And actually, can I just say, that playing the cymbals like its a drum, or the triangle like its a musical instrument is not Orthodox either.
Its not.
listen bud... there is a huge difference between cultural influences, such as the triangle and the symbols, and influences from other religions.
What Im trying to say is that Orthodox prayer isn't about singing, clapping and jumping up and down. Its not about loud musical noises. Its not.
Zoxasi will not leave the church and here is why. He knows it is truth, despite the flaws of those introducing heresy into her. He is simply voicing his frustration much like I have, I have said many times I want to leave the church, for pretty much the same reasons, but I never intended to, it is an impossibility. In our time of need God came and died for our sins, why should I turn my back on Him? We cannot just tuck tail and run, we stand up and say no. I dont care if a bishop says its ok, if we used that logic then we should have accepted Nestorianism, he was a bishop too! Zoxasi is zealous and full of passion and love, he is just frustrated and that I can understand.
[quote author=coptic boy777 link=topic=10538.msg128689#msg128689 date=1296222102] [quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10538.msg128660#msg128660 date=1296197718] And actually, can I just say, that playing the cymbals like its a drum, or the triangle like its a musical instrument is not Orthodox either.
Its not.
listen bud... there is a huge difference between cultural influences, such as the triangle and the symbols, and influences from other religions.
..... ok so no body is gonna say it.... ok i guess i will..... We play the Cymbals.... the Cymbals are a symbol....
just talked to my servant and he insist "the coptic church see the protestants as legitimate christians"
can anyone verify or refute that?
Protestantism certainly isn't Christian. Whether some protestants are Christians is a different story. There can be some people who are called "Orthodox Christians" and in fact aren't Christian at all. There was a thread about the topic that I posted on, and this is what I got out of that thread: "I have no idea, and it isn't my opinion that matters but God's." Whether some Protestants (not denominations, people) are Christian or not, it doesn't change that Orthodoxy is a better way and I should seek to bring them to the Orthodox Church.
I myself am full of sins, so I can't pass of judgement on anyone else. Whether some Protestants are Christian or not, doesn't change that our path is better and our faith is the original faith. Whether they are or aren't however, our way is more straight and our faith is the original faith. There is no need to dilute it at all, and there is little we can gain from taking songs with non-Orthodox tunes and content.
Anba Bola your not passing judgment on someone, its on their beliefs. If they adhere to protestantism in general they cannot be considered Christian. Protestantism is the devils delusion and probably one of his most clever heresies he has ever invented. Read Numbers 16 and see what happens to Korah and his followers who revolted against the priesthood.
I don't think I'll gain anything from saying a person is or isn't Christian. By saying Protestantism isn't Christian I've condemned their belief. I've condemned their belief, but past that I'd rather not speak, then speak erroneously. Even though certain protestants are technically protestant, they may not be revolting against the Orthodox faith themselves, and if they were to find Orthodoxy and see it as it is, they'd become Orthodox. Not all protestants are the ones revolting, there are some born into protestantism and seek Orthodoxy (though they don't know that Orthodoxy is what they're seeking yet).
Thats why I'd rather hold my tongue, because I haven't thought up of all the possibilities. However, I don't think there is a problem with saying that Protestantism isn't Christian.
Anba, that is reasonable and I do not mean to condemn anyone but I like to make the distinction between Orthodoxy and Protestantism and make it clear that protestantism is not Christian for the sake of our Orthodox people, so they understand that there is a difference. This protestant problem is a result of our leaders ignorantly accepting protestantism as Christian, which has opened the flood gates of heresy into our church. So I do understand your point and I stand corrected, we should make the distinction between the person and his or her beliefs. Thank you and I apologize.
[quote author=anba bola link=topic=10538.msg128801#msg128801 date=1296273926] Ioannes,
There's no need to apologize. You didn't do anything wrong. It is less about the words and more about what is meant by the words.
please pray for my weak self
It is semantics really. Often times I find myself referring to the protestants as opposed to protestantism. Thank you for pointing that out. I think we all need to continue to be vocal about this situation as I feel this is the most important thing facing our church today.
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=10538.msg128802#msg128802 date=1296274270] [quote author=anba bola link=topic=10538.msg128801#msg128801 date=1296273926] Ioannes,
There's no need to apologize. You didn't do anything wrong. It is less about the words and more about what is meant by the words.
please pray for my weak self
It is semantics really. Often times I find myself referring to the protestants as opposed to protestantism. Thank you for pointing that out. I think we all need to continue to be vocal about this situation as I feel this is the most important thing facing our church today.
This is the most important thing that is facing the church? Does anyone realize that their are thousands if not millions of Coptic people who do not even know what Our Lord Jesus did on the cross and the implications that it has on their lives. Does anyone realize that high school youth are on drugs and sexually active. Does anyone realize that while we are discussing this topic on this website we could have been reaching out to the lost sheep of our church or even praying for them. Wake up my friends! I am all for defending the Orthodox faith and keeping its purity but what is the purpose? So we keep our faith as a topic of discussion rather than action. Please lets end this convo and go pray if you want to know all about Orthodoxy vs Protestantism read Ioannes' books its really well written. I finished it in 3 hrs last night. Please everyone open your eyes. But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. 24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will. (2 Timothy 2:23-26)
short on time, so I can't say all I want to say, but here are the basics.
There are nothing wrong with these songs. Nothing at all. It is simply the church adapting to the culture of it's people. If we are worried about outside influence, then why is the British Orthodox Church, a daughter of the Coptic Orthodox Church, entitled to it's own tune and melody during the liturgy? Why don't the clergy of the BOC learn the Coptic tune and sing it that way? Because it is about connecting to the people. Is this not an outside influence? Why has no one protested against it? Is the church racist, adopting one culture but not the other?
Also, it is not only the BOC, but even within the COC there are devisions on how praise and worship is to be conducted. In the Coptic churches in Africa, the people sing and dance during communion! Why are they allowed to do this? Is is not "heresy" like some people are saying here on this forum? Because it is part of their culture and it brings them closer to Christ! In the same way, here in English speaking parts of the world, if we want to sing there religious songs, that were inspired by people of the culture, why is it wrong? First of all, not ALL Coptic Christians are Egyptian. I know in my church there are Asians, African Americans, and White people who attend. If we have all these converts, why are we closing our minds? Why don't we reach out and take them in and make them comfortable? How do I expect a recently converted African American individual in my church to spiritually benefit if all we allow them to sing are Cemoti and Esmo Epchois? How can we reach out like true Christians if all we do is keep to ourselves?
It's not change, its adaptation.
... Sorry that wasn't so short, but it nothing compared to all I wanted to say, as I am very heated about this topic and I find it completely insane how the people here are reacting on this forum, not just relating to the music, but we have strayed from the topic to judging and antagonizing the protestants! Their relationship with Christ is not for us to decide. Who are WE to judge?? Tho only true and final judge will be our Lord Jesus Christ and for all we know, these protestant artists may be closer to him than each one of us.
[quote author=AikotiEnsok link=topic=10538.msg128852#msg128852 date=1296343825] short on time, so I can't say all I want to say, but here are the basics.
There are nothing wrong with these songs. Nothing at all. It is simply the church adapting to the culture of it's people. If we are worried about outside influence, then why is the British Orthodox Church, a daughter of the Coptic Orthodox Church, entitled to it's own tune and melody during the liturgy? Why don't the clergy of the BOC learn the Coptic tune and sing it that way? Because it is about connecting to the people. Is this not an outside influence? Why has no one protested against it? Is the church racist, adopting one culture but not the other?
Also, it is not only the BOC, but even within the COC there are devisions on how praise and worship is to be conducted. In the Coptic churches in Africa, the people sing and dance during communion! Why are they allowed to do this? Is is not "heresy" like some people are saying here on this forum? Because it is part of their culture and it brings them closer to Christ! In the same way, here in English speaking parts of the world, if we want to sing there religious songs, that were inspired by people of the culture, why is it wrong? First of all, not ALL Coptic Christians are Egyptian. I know in my church there are Asians, African Americans, and White people who attend. If we have all these converts, why are we closing our minds? Why don't we reach out and take them in and make them comfortable? How do I expect a recently converted African American individual in my church to spiritually benefit if all we allow them to sing are Cemoti and Esmo Epchois? How can we reach out like true Christians if all we do is keep to ourselves?
It's not change, its adaptation.
... Sorry that wasn't so short, but it nothing compared to all I wanted to say, as I am very heated about this topic and I find it completely insane how the people here are reacting on this forum, not just relating to the music, but we have strayed from the topic to judging and antagonizing the protestants! Their relationship with Christ is not for us to decide. Who are WE to judge?? Tho only true and final judge will be our Lord Jesus Christ and for all we know, these protestant artists may be closer to him than each one of us.
Pray for me,
Chris
Well the British Orthodox church assimilates for it's congregation
So you want our COPTIC orthodox church to "adapt" into the AOC (american orthodox church)
Every example you gave is assimilating to it's own culture... our culture is COPTIC.... we are not Americans....
and "adaptation" IS CHANGE! You can't NOT CHANGE if you're adapting! (i know it's a double negative... shut up lol)
And concerning "converts" there are converts here that will confirm this.... they didn't leave their original religion to come to a protestant culture... they came because they wanted the true Coptic experience and you know that is not what they get at our church!
and concerning the protestant thing... no one has said anything against protestants... but we are judging their religion! (which is not Christianity by the way)
If you want to adapt to the culture around you, go to a protestant church! Don't try to adapt our church to the protestant culture....
The problem isn't being Coptic. It's at least being Orthodox. First and foremost we are Orthodox and we must bring the Orthodox faith to the youth. I'm all for teaching coptic, but its more important to teach Orthodoxy. We certainly should have songs in English for the youth, but their tune and content must be acceptable. Most of the songs written by Protestant artists have tunes meant to spark emotions and then the relationship to God can become empty emotions. That's what we mean by Orthodox tunes. It doesn't have to necessarily be coptic but it can't be just sparking emotions. Also they are sometimes theologically incorrect or incorrect in their themes.
There are however Orthodox songs. For example there is "From all tribes", "Just Like the Bird", "O seeker", so we can sing hymns in English etc.
Back in the days of Archdeacon Habib Guirgis, there was a growing Protestant movement in Egypt and so the Pope at the time, accompanied by Archdeacon Habib Guirgis, toured the churches to counteract the Protestant evangelism. During the tours this is what happened (This is from his biography):
It was during these tours that Habeeb might have observed the modern means by which the missionaries attracted a number of Coptic families. He thought that the church would probably benefit from borrowing some ideas from the evangelicals, such as afternoon spiritual gatherings for adults and Sunday Schools for children, and the use of hymns and individual prayers. Habeeb put his skills as a poet at work and wrote a book of hymns he called "Spiritual hymns and songs." Some of these hymns pointed to the glories of the Coptic church, like the famous "My Coptic Church, the church of God" (Kanisati-el- Keptia, kanisat-ulElah), which is well known till this day. In this way he successfully provided an alternative to the attractions of the services of the other churches.
He didn't simply take the Protestant songs, he took the idea and made it Orthodox. We can sort of do the same. We can have english songs that are Orthodox in content. So we can provide an alternative without losing any of the Orthodox faith as is happening know. We could also teach a hymn in the time that those songs are usually sung.
Please pray for my weak self and please correct me if I'm wrong. Trust me I won't take offense to any correction.
The only thing any church really needs to assimilate into the culture it is within is using the language of that culture. There are acceptions during the liturgy like when we sing agios for the Gospel, its usually in Greek because the Gospel was written in Greek, but either way simply changing the language is the only necessity.
[quote author=abanoub2000 link=topic=10538.msg128858#msg128858 date=1296352022] [quote author=AikotiEnsok link=topic=10538.msg128852#msg128852 date=1296343825] short on time, so I can't say all I want to say, but here are the basics.
There are nothing wrong with these songs. Nothing at all. It is simply the church adapting to the culture of it's people. If we are worried about outside influence, then why is the British Orthodox Church, a daughter of the Coptic Orthodox Church, entitled to it's own tune and melody during the liturgy? Why don't the clergy of the BOC learn the Coptic tune and sing it that way? Because it is about connecting to the people. Is this not an outside influence? Why has no one protested against it? Is the church racist, adopting one culture but not the other?
Also, it is not only the BOC, but even within the COC there are devisions on how praise and worship is to be conducted. In the Coptic churches in Africa, the people sing and dance during communion! Why are they allowed to do this? Is is not "heresy" like some people are saying here on this forum? Because it is part of their culture and it brings them closer to Christ! In the same way, here in English speaking parts of the world, if we want to sing there religious songs, that were inspired by people of the culture, why is it wrong? First of all, not ALL Coptic Christians are Egyptian. I know in my church there are Asians, African Americans, and White people who attend. If we have all these converts, why are we closing our minds? Why don't we reach out and take them in and make them comfortable? How do I expect a recently converted African American individual in my church to spiritually benefit if all we allow them to sing are Cemoti and Esmo Epchois? How can we reach out like true Christians if all we do is keep to ourselves?
It's not change, its adaptation.
... Sorry that wasn't so short, but it nothing compared to all I wanted to say, as I am very heated about this topic and I find it completely insane how the people here are reacting on this forum, not just relating to the music, but we have strayed from the topic to judging and antagonizing the protestants! Their relationship with Christ is not for us to decide. Who are WE to judge?? Tho only true and final judge will be our Lord Jesus Christ and for all we know, these protestant artists may be closer to him than each one of us.
Pray for me,
Chris
Well the British Orthodox church assimilates for it's congregation
So you want our COPTIC orthodox church to "adapt" into the AOC (american orthodox church)
Every example you gave is assimilating to it's own culture... our culture is COPTIC.... we are not Americans....
and "adaptation" IS CHANGE! You can't NOT CHANGE if you're adapting! (i know it's a double negative... shut up lol)
And concerning "converts" there are converts here that will confirm this.... they didn't leave their original religion to come to a protestant culture... they came because they wanted the true Coptic experience and you know that is not what they get at our church!
and concerning the protestant thing... no one has said anything against protestants... but we are judging their religion! (which is not Christianity by the way)
If you want to adapt to the culture around you, go to a protestant church! Don't try to adapt our church to the protestant culture....
PS: this sounds like uncle samy!
Abanoub, you know me, you know that I'm live and die for Coptic Orthodoxy and I love the hymns and the spirituality. You know how much I love our church and you know i will never leave her. However, honestly, I think the members of the Coptic community, as a result of their extreme love for the church (which is not bad!) like mine, have become extremely snobby. The church has become extremely pious. It is as if we believe that only Orthodox Christians are going to be saved. We believe that our form of worship is the best and only way. And like I said.. even COPTIC churches in Africa dance and clap as they worship! They truly feel the love of Christ and it makes them happy! It is not how we worship here in America, but it is NOT wrong!! I met an Abouna who moved here from Kenya, and he has trouble holding himself as he prays the liturgy! Also, even some of the Arabic tarneem that everybody know and loves were written by PROTESTANT Egyptians!!! Why do we not criticize them? DO they not send the same message as American protestant songs? They DO! And it is not a Orthodox message, neither a protestant message, but a CHRISTIAN message! Why do we differentiate these songs from the American ones? Its culture. We can't tell the difference between these Egyptian protestant songs and Orthodox ones (not including alhan) because they sound the same! Its not a Christian style of music, its an Egyptian style. This is all culture. Heres one of my favorite, and apparently heretical "protestant" songs:
"Empty Me" by Jeremy Camp
Holy Fire burn away, My desire for anything That is not of you and is of me. I want more of you and less of me. Holy Fire burn away, My desire for anything That is not of you and is of me, I want more of you and less of me, yeah. Empty me, Empty me, yeah, Fill, won’t you fill me, With you, with you, yeah. Holy Fire, burn away, My desire for anything That is not of you and is of me I want more of you and less of me, yeah. Empty me, Empty me, yeah, Fill, won’t you fill me, With you, with you, yeah. Holy Fire, burn away, My desire for anything That is not of you and less of me, yeah. Empty me, Empty me, yeah. Fill, won’t you fill me, with you, with you, empty me now.
How is this theologically incorrect? Can anyone here find one thing wrong with this song? No, nothing. Im sure if we took out the instruments, changed the artist's name to Sarkis, and held each vowel for a 2 minute 37 second minimum, then it would be a great, acceptabe church hymn! The piousness of the Coptic Christians. It amazes me.
Ensok, Read this to know and further understand why protestantism is WRONG.
As a convert from protestantism, I feel the need to address a growing phenomena taking place within our very church. The introduction of aspects of protestantism, namely protestant songs and worship style presented as being Christian. It bothers me deeply for I have fought long and hard to find Orthodoxy and I will not stand by idle while she becomes tainted with heresy. I have talked with several youth who have complained that their youth meetings are essentially protestant worship sessions, and how much they dislike it. What is more, they complain and nobody hears them and this too is unacceptable. As baptized Orthodox Christians it is all of our duty to preserve the church, not to introduce fallacies or stand by and let it happen. The argument for the introduction of protestantism is that it helps keep the youth and bring more people in, and that protestantism is Christian. Neither of these is sound Orthodox teaching in any way shape or form.
To further prove this point we must take a much deeper look into what makes protestantism a polar opposite to Orthodoxy. When protestantism was invented, thats right it was invented by a man or men and not Christ through His apostles, it was founded on two basic doctrines. I call these the two pillars of protestantism, scripture as the sole authority (sola scriptura) and justification by faith alone (sola fide). Every denomination that considers itself to be Christian that came about after the 16th century is based on these two doctrines, even Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons. Neither doctrine is even close to being Orthodox, in fact they are not only conflicting but directly against Orthodoxy. Sola scriptura states that scripture is the sole authority on earth, this not only denies the Church as an authority but the priesthood as a whole. This is not Orthodox therefore we do not accept it, so can this be considered Christian?
Sola fide states that we are saved through justification by faith alone, some have even taken it further and invented salvation in a moment. This involves praying a prayer not found in scripture, contradicting sola scriptura, and you are saved. Sola fide is nothing more than an invention created by Martin Luther, a man so terrified of his own salvation he created this doctrine to make him feel better about it. Justification by faith alone denies ALL of the sacraments, which again conflicts with sola scriptura because Christ tells us to receive communion (Matthew 26: 26-28). This doctrine also conflicts with the epistle of St. James and Luther, the creator of sola fide, knew it and tried removing it from the bible calling it “an epistle of straw”. Do we consider this Christian? So what is it exactly that is Christian about them? Because they believe in Christ, or so I am assuming? If this is what some of our clergy is basing this off of then their case is weak as St. James tells us: “You believe that there is one God, you do well. Even the demons believe-and tremble.” ( James 2:19) So the demons believing in God tremble, because they know God, they know Christ and who He is, so technically they would have the same Christological understanding that we do, of course they have no hope of salvation which is the main difference. So shall we also consider demons Christians? This logic used by some of our clergy is dangerous and is misleading many.
Why is it that some feel it is necessary to introduce protestant hymns and worship into our beloved church? I have been told personally that it is to bring more people to the church and to modernize the church. Nothing could be more dangerous than this liberal mindset. Coptic Orthodoxy has the most rich and beautiful hymns ever written by the hand of man. Not only is it pleasing to God and to the ear of man, but the whole of our theology is contained within our Psalmody and hymns in some way. So there is no need to “modernize” our church because it is ahead of its time, introducing these superficial songs would only slow our progress. Another danger in introducing protestant songs and worship, especially to our youth, is that it is telling them that they are the same as us, that we accept protestantism as being equal to Orthodoxy. If this is true then what is the logical outcome? Take the path of least resistance which just happens to be protestantism. They do not fast 210 days out of the year as we do. They do not worship God because they love Him but because protestantism is about self interest in investing their future for when they die. Who would want to remain Orthodox, especially our youth, if you can get the same result doing less in protestantism? By believing protestantism to be Christian, we are making Orthodoxy relative and obsolete in the minds of the people and this also is unacceptable.
Shall we introduce Nestorian or Arian hymns, so long as they do not contradict with sound Orthodox teaching? Absolutely not! We do not all worship the same God but according to some of our clergy they would have us believe that we all worship Christ whom we share no common opinion. Protestantism has approximately 40,000 distinctly different denominations, would our clergy have us believe that God is telling them all different things? This would be blaspheming the work of the Holy Spirit! There is “One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism” (Ephesians 4:5) not many! Christ Himself says: “Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out many devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me you who work iniquity.”
Notice here Christ uses the word “iniquity” which means “lawlessness”. Is it Orthodox who practice lawlessly? Apostolic succession proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that we are the church Christ founded in Mt. 16:18, His church wont be conquered and thus should still be here, we can connect ourselves to that foundation. Protestantism is invented purely by the mind of men, not God. If Christ’s church will not be overcome, then it is in no need of “reformation” or any kind of “protest”. We have not strayed from Orthodox teaching, at least until now.
Protestantism rejects all of the sacraments, some still use a unrecognizable version of the liturgy, and some still have a few of the other sacraments, mostly the early protestant. Anglicans ordain homosexuals and women, and in one case a woman priestess served communion to a dog! The sacraments are not sacred to the lawless. And certainly does not make them Christian since they are not part of the church or have left the grace of the Holy Spirit by rejecting the church and its sacraments.
“For there will come a time when they will not endure sound doctrine, but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears. And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned aside unto fables.” (2 Timothy 4:3-4) Martin Luther was terrified of his salvation, worrying that he would be condemned to hell. This same ideology exists within many protestant churches, as to them it is about getting to heaven, not loving Christ. Luther created justification by faith alone (sola fide) to quell this fear inside him, now he did not have to worry because he simply needed to believe. This is dangerous and lulls people into a lax spiritual lifestyle, putting their salvation into jeopardy even more than before.
“For that day will not come unless the falling away comes first and the man of sin revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.” (2 Thess. 2:3-4) The falling away, or apostasy, is a slow falling away from the faith and could be traced back even to 1054 or the 4th council, if one wanted to get technical. Either way it picked up a lot of momentum in the 16th century when protestantism was created and now we see multitudes of denominations calling themselves Christian, yet not even closely resembling Orthodoxy. How is it that we should accept protestantism as Christian? There is no reason to, in fact I would argue that doing so is siding with heresy and undoing what our church fathers have done in defending the faith against these types of heresies. We must not be deceived by the wolf at the door just because he dresses as a lamb. Satan has been attacking our church from the beginning and our present time mirrors that of the early church, persecution and heresies. Why would anything change? Our adversary has been perfecting his tactics longer than any of us have been alive and the necessity to know our history and the writings of the early church fathers is great. Our early church fathers would NOT stand for this and we must regard them as an authority, we must study their example for Orthodoxy is here as a result of their zeal. “How can he have God as a father without having the church as his mother.” The words of St. Cyprian of Carthage who echoes the words of the early church fathers in saying that the church is essential in our salvation, how can we know God and actively reject His church?
In closing I would like to urge our brothers and sisters to know and understand our church, to follow the examples set forth not only by Christ in scripture but of our early church fathers and their abundance of wisdom. How can we let this happen?
The weakest servant of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ, John
PRotestants are christians are they not?? or would you judge them and condemn them to hell?? Catholics are christians are they not?? or will you say that just because they are an apostolic church that maybe theyll get to heaven?? ORthodox are christians are they not or will the greek orthodox not get to heaven ??? Or just us and the five oriental churches??
THE END OF EACH OF THESE RELIGIONS SAYS CHRISTIAN YES OR NO?????????????????????????? im not telling you go be a muslim or a hindu
but ur not obeying gods commandemts! love others!! do we love protestants or no?? are we condemning them?? you know something we talk about them in a horrible way and yet they treat us with much respect!! im not going to dance in church ever. and thats not my culture! but i will clap to praise the name of my LORD AND SAVIOR WHEN HIS HOLY SPIIRT FILLS ME SOO MUCH THAT THE ONLY OUTPOUR I CAN HAVE IS CLAPPING WHEN I WISH I COULD FLYY???? the liturgy should only bewith the cymbals and the tirianto! i agree with that because that is how we have learned to worship but outside the liturgy we must have full out praise!!! Why is it that we are creating separation???
we have orthodox and catholic and protestant and lutheran and this and that!! lets talk about practicing christians TRUE CHRISTIANS not the ones by name!! who are you to tell anyone else how to praise god???? be open minded and have a loving heart and be humble and look at your CHRISTIAN BRETHREN WITH LOVE!!!!!!! accept them as christ would!!! or will you shun them liek the muslims shun their brothers!!
we are CHRISTIAN !!! GOD IS LOVE!!! why do we show hard headedness and islam in our CHRISTIAN FAITH!!! when christ was a simple loving humble being!! FOLLOW IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF GOD!!!!!!!! dont dare compare yourself to a church father or another human being!!! Be perfect just as your FATHER in heaven is perfect Matthew 5 42. do u want to be like god ?? or like another person?? OUR ONLY MEDIATOR IS CHRIST!!! BE OF CHRIST!!!!!!!
:-* I LOVE YOU :-*
Amen!
Coptic Orthodoxy Christianity - What? You changed the original Greek liturgy into Coptic so the Egyptians would understand??? What? you took the pagan songs that were originally used to praise the Pharaoh and used them to praise Christ the King [look into the history of Epouro]? You took the temples that were dedicated to idols and converted them churches? WHY THAT'S HERESY! How could you use anything modern to worship Christ?!! Why, you should have used the original Greek - who cares if no one understood. You should have stuck to ONLY GREEK SONGS! How could you use a popular cultural song to praise GOD?! HERETICS!
I'm sorry, but all this antagonism towards Protestantism is frustrating me! ISN'T THIS PRECISELY WHAT CHRIST CRITICIZED THE PHARISEES FOR!!!! They thought they were perfect - they had their rules - they had their ancient tradition -- but the publican, the adulterous, the Samaritan --- they were the ones who had the true hearts and were of so much more worth in Christ's eyes. Orthodoxy is beautiful -- but not when it causes us to judge and belittle others -- not when we don't have our hearts with it and are only worshiping with our bodies while judging others who don't worship the same way.
When I went to college, I looked down on Protestants after reading all the antagonism on this forum. When I eventually joined a Campus Ministry, I was HUMBLED, at how dedicated and spiritual many Protestants were. They knew the Bible backwards and forwards and could pull verses up so easily - I was left in the dust! Many were so dedicated in applying Christianity to their modern lives --- so much more than many Orthodox I met. OF COURSE, you will find some that only are Christians in name and not in heart. OF COURSE, you will find some that believe they are saved but don't show Christ really working in their lives. OF COURSE, you will find some that go to Bible Study only to leave and go to a party -- BUT let's open our eyes -- ISN'T this happening with many of us in the Orthodox church.
OF COURSE there are branches of protestantism that are not inspired by the Holy Spirit - that are started by the pride or selfish desire of the founder. BUT in the end GOD WILL LOOK AT THE HEART!!! Heretics will be condemned by their arrogance. The Protestants who loved GOD with all their mind, body, and spirit --that dedicated everything to spread GOD's word and to serve him with all they had and rid themselves of their own desires -- what of they?? What would you do if YOU had to make the decision? "I'm sorry, you are going to hell. You loved Christ and you served Him all your life, but I'm sorry - your songs of worship had guitars in them and you believed that Jesus had brothers and sisters - that is instant condemnation. I'm sorry, better luck next time"
LET US OPEN OUR MINDS AND OUR EYES. Let us look to what CHRIST YELLED at the Pharisees for! It's the HEART that counts!!! THE HEART!!!
--- Ok rant over --- Please GOD guide us!!! KEEP US STRONG IN THE RIGHT TEACHING, BUT TEACH US YOUR LOVE!!! TO LOVE AS YOU LOVED AND TO SEE AS YOU SAW!!!!
Servant, your totally missing the point and your generalizing things. Its find to Christianize something, as was done in Egypt and Ethiopia. What is being done in our church is an outright travesty! They are introducing protestantism into the church as if it is the same and if you took time to read my last post you would see why it IS NOT! Throughout our history the great saints of the church have written and openly spoke against many beliefs and many that considered themselves to be Christian, why is that not alright to do now? We are Orthodox not protestant, read my last post before you respond.
AikotiEnsok, your reference to the British Orthodox Church does not support your argument. The British Orthodox worship certainly uses a British musical style of chant, but it is wholly in keeping with the Orthodox tradition.
The issue is not DIFFERENCE, but allowing that which is not Orthodox into the Church.
Are you suggesting that because Rap music is used in the world around us it should be used in the Church? There are many sound and Orthodox forms of worship in English which could be used - I have addressed this in my posts. What is being introduced is not ancient Orthodox hymns in English, it is not the Psalms sung in English, it is an entirely different form of worship with an entirely different objective to Orthodox worship.
I found myself in an evangelical place of worship yesterday where there was much of such music, with an electronic band. Had I not been there as a representative of the Church I think I would have walked out. It reminded me as an ex-protestant, and therefore with more experience than almost any others here, why I left protestantism and became Orthodox. It was not the worship of God, it was the creation of a mood, and a mood that made me feel deeply uncomfortable.
Had I been in a traditional protestant Church I would not have felt so ill at ease. There might have been other concerns, but the worship would not have bothered me. But modern evangelical pentecostal worship is deeply disturbing to me. I had to pray the Jesus Prayer throughout it.
You're right about judging Protestants. We should never judge a Protestant person. However Protestants aren't Protestantism. I should never judge a protestant because many are more righteous than me, and we are commanded not to judge anyone. However Protestantism is to be judged, just like heresies are to be judged. This must be done out of love, though. Just as the ideology of heresies are judged, not out of hate but out of love. I also should be humbled that we have the Orthodox Faith and yet there are Protestants who are closer to Christ than I am. Many of them aren't aware though, of the problems of Protestantism and it is our job to be vessels of Christ and to bring them to Orthodox Christianity.
ISN'T THIS PRECISELY WHAT CHRIST CRITICIZED THE PHARISEES FOR!!!! They thought they were perfect - they had their rules - they had their ancient tradition -- but the publican, the adulterous, the Samaritan --- they were the ones who had the true hearts and were of so much more worth in Christ's eyes.
You're right, we can't think of ourselves as perfect, and we have to take the example of the Pharisees personally. However, when a bad ideology was condemned, we don't say that the council was being like the Pharisees. Again we can't condemn them as people. That's wrong especially when we're so sinful. I'm sure that there are Protestants who eclipse me in their Spirituality and their closeness to Christ. That of course shouldn't mean we take Protestant beliefs or non-Orthodox songs in our church.
Again, we shouldn't look down on Protestants. However it is our job to take them to the fullness of Christianity. The one true Church which is the Orthodox Church. If we actually love them we wouldn't be afraid to say this and this belief is wrong, and to show them the fullness of the spirituality of Orthodoxy. We can't benefit much from borrowing Protestant songs, especially when we have Orthodox songs and Orthodox hymns.
I agree with all that anba bola has said - and as an ex-protestant, together with Ioannes and others WE really know what protestantism is about.
We do not judge protestants. We do not even say that protestantism is not Christian, it is clearly derived through an historical process from Christianity. BUT IN ALL IT'S DISTINCTIVES IT IS ERROR, IT IS HERESY.
WE should be reaching out to protestants with the truth for THEIR salvation, not introducing their error into the Holy Church for our condemnation.
If someone is a drug addict we condemn their addiction and we absolutely do not embrace it ourselves, but we love the one who is addicted. To condemn their addiction is not to condemn them. To condemn a heresy is not to judge those persons who embrace it. Protestantism is absolutely a Christian heresy, or rather a collection of Christian heresies.
I had a discussion with some of my dearest friends at church, whos advice I take very seriously. They warned me of this too, they personally believe protestantism is Christian and I disagree, and here is why. Protestantism is not, as a belief, Christian, as I have shown in a few posts here. However a person who belongs to a protestant church could be a Christian at heart. I myself, and possibly Fr. Peter, have experienced this. Because I was searching for God and listening to Him and not so much myself, I eventually came to the Orthodox Church. So I do not discount that there could be Christian people within these denominations who are wholly unaware of the true church yet at the same time are devoted to God in the way they know how. The person is separate from the belief, when we say "protestantism is bad or not Christian" we are not condemning the person, only God knows who is righteous.
For the sake of safeguarding our people against apostasy we need to make clear distinctions, not in a hostile way, but in a truthful loving way. If we accept the multitude of protestant denominations as Christian, what is to stop us from accepting other heresies? I have a difficult time explaining this to people and it may just be the fact that I am not well educated or that I cannot convey myself well to others, but I feel strongly that we need to make this known to our brothers and sisters. There is no need nor purpose to integrate protestant songs or worship into the church, that is my personal opinion.
PRotestants are christians are they not?? or would you judge them and condemn them to hell?? Catholics are christians are they not?? or will you say that just because they are an apostolic church that maybe theyll get to heaven?? ORthodox are christians are they not or will the greek orthodox not get to heaven ??? Or just us and the five oriental churches??
THE END OF EACH OF THESE RELIGIONS SAYS CHRISTIAN YES OR NO?????????????????????????? im not telling you go be a muslim or a hindu
but ur not obeying gods commandemts! love others!! do we love protestants or no?? are we condemning them?? you know something we talk about them in a horrible way and yet they treat us with much respect!! im not going to dance in church ever. and thats not my culture! but i will clap to praise the name of my LORD AND SAVIOR WHEN HIS HOLY SPIIRT FILLS ME SOO MUCH THAT THE ONLY OUTPOUR I CAN HAVE IS CLAPPING WHEN I WISH I COULD FLYY???? the liturgy should only bewith the cymbals and the tirianto! i agree with that because that is how we have learned to worship but outside the liturgy we must have full out praise!!! Why is it that we are creating separation???
we have orthodox and catholic and protestant and lutheran and this and that!! lets talk about practicing christians TRUE CHRISTIANS not the ones by name!! who are you to tell anyone else how to praise god???? be open minded and have a loving heart and be humble and look at your CHRISTIAN BRETHREN WITH LOVE!!!!!!! accept them as christ would!!! or will you shun them liek the muslims shun their brothers!!
we are CHRISTIAN !!! GOD IS LOVE!!! why do we show hard headedness and islam in our CHRISTIAN FAITH!!! when christ was a simple loving humble being!! FOLLOW IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF GOD!!!!!!!! dont dare compare yourself to a church father or another human being!!! Be perfect just as your FATHER in heaven is perfect Matthew 5 42. do u want to be like god ?? or like another person?? OUR ONLY MEDIATOR IS CHRIST!!! BE OF CHRIST!!!!!!!
:-* I LOVE YOU :-*
Amen!
Coptic Orthodoxy Christianity - What? You changed the original Greek liturgy into Coptic so the Egyptians would understand??? What? you took the pagan songs that were originally used to praise the Pharaoh and used them to praise Christ the King [look into the history of Epouro]? You took the temples that were dedicated to idols and converted them churches? WHY THAT'S HERESY! How could you use anything modern to worship Christ?!! Why, you should have used the original Greek - who cares if no one understood. You should have stuck to ONLY GREEK SONGS! How could you use a popular cultural song to praise GOD?! HERETICS!
I'm sorry, but all this antagonism towards Protestantism is frustrating me! ISN'T THIS PRECISELY WHAT CHRIST CRITICIZED THE PHARISEES FOR!!!! They thought they were perfect - they had their rules - they had their ancient tradition -- but the publican, the adulterous, the Samaritan --- they were the ones who had the true hearts and were of so much more worth in Christ's eyes. Orthodoxy is beautiful -- but not when it causes us to judge and belittle others -- not when we don't have our hearts with it and are only worshiping with our bodies while judging others who don't worship the same way.
When I went to college, I looked down on Protestants after reading all the antagonism on this forum. When I eventually joined a Campus Ministry, I was HUMBLED, at how dedicated and spiritual many Protestants were. They knew the Bible backwards and forwards and could pull verses up so easily - I was left in the dust! Many were so dedicated in applying Christianity to their modern lives --- so much more than many Orthodox I met. OF COURSE, you will find some that only are Christians in name and not in heart. OF COURSE, you will find some that believe they are saved but don't show Christ really working in their lives. OF COURSE, you will find some that go to Bible Study only to leave and go to a party -- BUT let's open our eyes -- ISN'T this happening with many of us in the Orthodox church.
OF COURSE there are branches of protestantism that are not inspired by the Holy Spirit - that are started by the pride or selfish desire of the founder. BUT in the end GOD WILL LOOK AT THE HEART!!! Heretics will be condemned by their arrogance. The Protestants who loved GOD with all their mind, body, and spirit --that dedicated everything to spread GOD's word and to serve him with all they had and rid themselves of their own desires -- what of they?? What would you do if YOU had to make the decision? "I'm sorry, you are going to hell. You loved Christ and you served Him all your life, but I'm sorry - your songs of worship had guitars in them and you believed that Jesus had brothers and sisters - that is instant condemnation. I'm sorry, better luck next time"
LET US OPEN OUR MINDS AND OUR EYES. Let us look to what CHRIST YELLED at the Pharisees for! It's the HEART that counts!!! THE HEART!!!
--- Ok rant over --- Please GOD guide us!!! KEEP US STRONG IN THE RIGHT TEACHING, BUT TEACH US YOUR LOVE!!! TO LOVE AS YOU LOVED AND TO SEE AS YOU SAW!!!!
I don't know why this reply to me is being quoted over and over approvingly. I've never written anything about Protestants as people, but Protestantism as a belief and its ways of worship are very wrong. If you haven't ever been Protestant, you don't know. I have been. It is obvious to me the faults of that belief system, but maybe if you are looking from the outside and only see how Protestants seem "dedicated and spiritual", maybe your own Orthodox tradition seems to be lacking by comparison in some way. Trust me: It's not. Or, no...don't trust me. Trust your fellow Orthodox Christians who have walked the long road from Protestantism to true Orthodox faith. Trust Father Peter, and Ioannes, and all the others who are writing from first-hand experience. And use the feeling of humbleness that you feel around Protestants to learn more about your tradition so that you'll come to understand with God's help why Protestantism is certainly nothing to be envious of, and never, ever, ever something that should enter into any Orthodox church (Coptic, Ethiopian, Armenian, Byzantine...all Orthodox churches are infinitely better than any kind of Protestantism). The bottom line is this: Those "dedicated and spiritual" Protestants would have you leave your tradition, given to you by the great apostle and evangelist St. Mark, because they don't understand it or see the value in it. Especially do not imitate them in this regard!
dzheremi, thank you very much for that wonderful post. Cradle Orthodox do not understand that most of protestantism teaches, LITERALLY teaches, that the priesthood is likened to the pharisees and the devil. That our traditions are pure evil that we worship St. Mary and other "idols". I will not condemn the people, but the belief system or systems are most definetly heretical if not completely un-Christian. I feel very disheartened for the simple fact that there is very little support in return from the church. I do not feel a converts opinion is very valued when it comes to this situation, thank God for people like Fr. Peter Farrington and Fr. Athanasius Iskander.
Comments
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10538.msg128660#msg128660 date=1296197718]
And actually, can I just say, that playing the cymbals like its a drum, or the triangle like its a musical instrument is not Orthodox either.
Its not.
listen bud... there is a huge difference between cultural influences, such as the triangle and the symbols, and influences from other religions.
What Im trying to say is that Orthodox prayer isn't about singing, clapping and jumping up and down. Its not about loud musical noises. Its not.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10538.msg128660#msg128660 date=1296197718]
And actually, can I just say, that playing the cymbals like its a drum, or the triangle like its a musical instrument is not Orthodox either.
Its not.
listen bud... there is a huge difference between cultural influences, such as the triangle and the symbols, and influences from other religions.
..... ok so no body is gonna say it.... ok i guess i will..... We play the Cymbals.... the Cymbals are a symbol....
But if anyone is a bad speller TRY HARDER.
If anyone is using English as a second language then CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR PROFICIENCY.
Father Peter
I myself am full of sins, so I can't pass of judgement on anyone else. Whether some Protestants are Christian or not, doesn't change that our path is better and our faith is the original faith. Whether they are or aren't however, our way is more straight and our faith is the original faith. There is no need to dilute it at all, and there is little we can gain from taking songs with non-Orthodox tunes and content.
Please pray for me
I don't think I'll gain anything from saying a person is or isn't Christian. By saying Protestantism isn't Christian I've condemned their belief. I've condemned their belief, but past that I'd rather not speak, then speak erroneously. Even though certain protestants are technically protestant, they may not be revolting against the Orthodox faith themselves, and if they were to find Orthodoxy and see it as it is, they'd become Orthodox. Not all protestants are the ones revolting, there are some born into protestantism and seek Orthodoxy (though they don't know that Orthodoxy is what they're seeking yet).
Thats why I'd rather hold my tongue, because I haven't thought up of all the possibilities. However, I don't think there is a problem with saying that Protestantism isn't Christian.
There's no need to apologize. You didn't do anything wrong. It is less about the words and more about what is meant by the words.
please pray for my weak self
Ioannes,
There's no need to apologize. You didn't do anything wrong. It is less about the words and more about what is meant by the words.
please pray for my weak self
It is semantics really. Often times I find myself referring to the protestants as opposed to protestantism. Thank you for pointing that out. I think we all need to continue to be vocal about this situation as I feel this is the most important thing facing our church today.
[quote author=anba bola link=topic=10538.msg128801#msg128801 date=1296273926]
Ioannes,
There's no need to apologize. You didn't do anything wrong. It is less about the words and more about what is meant by the words.
please pray for my weak self
It is semantics really. Often times I find myself referring to the protestants as opposed to protestantism. Thank you for pointing that out. I think we all need to continue to be vocal about this situation as I feel this is the most important thing facing our church today.
This is the most important thing that is facing the church? Does anyone realize that their are thousands if not millions of Coptic people who do not even know what Our Lord Jesus did on the cross and the implications that it has on their lives. Does anyone realize that high school youth are on drugs and sexually active. Does anyone realize that while we are discussing this topic on this website we could have been reaching out to the lost sheep of our church or even praying for them. Wake up my friends! I am all for defending the Orthodox faith and keeping its purity but what is the purpose? So we keep our faith as a topic of discussion rather than action. Please lets end this convo and go pray if you want to know all about Orthodoxy vs Protestantism read Ioannes' books its really well written. I finished it in 3 hrs last night. Please everyone open your eyes. But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. 24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will. (2 Timothy 2:23-26)
Forgive me for my weakness and sinfulness.
There are nothing wrong with these songs. Nothing at all. It is simply the church adapting to the culture of it's people. If we are worried about outside influence, then why is the British Orthodox Church, a daughter of the Coptic Orthodox Church, entitled to it's own tune and melody during the liturgy? Why don't the clergy of the BOC learn the Coptic tune and sing it that way? Because it is about connecting to the people. Is this not an outside influence? Why has no one protested against it? Is the church racist, adopting one culture but not the other?
Also, it is not only the BOC, but even within the COC there are devisions on how praise and worship is to be conducted. In the Coptic churches in Africa, the people sing and dance during communion! Why are they allowed to do this? Is is not "heresy" like some people are saying here on this forum? Because it is part of their culture and it brings them closer to Christ! In the same way, here in English speaking parts of the world, if we want to sing there religious songs, that were inspired by people of the culture, why is it wrong? First of all, not ALL Coptic Christians are Egyptian. I know in my church there are Asians, African Americans, and White people who attend. If we have all these converts, why are we closing our minds? Why don't we reach out and take them in and make them comfortable? How do I expect a recently converted African American individual in my church to spiritually benefit if all we allow them to sing are Cemoti and Esmo Epchois? How can we reach out like true Christians if all we do is keep to ourselves?
It's not change, its adaptation.
... Sorry that wasn't so short, but it nothing compared to all I wanted to say, as I am very heated about this topic and I find it completely insane how the people here are reacting on this forum, not just relating to the music, but we have strayed from the topic to judging and antagonizing the protestants! Their relationship with Christ is not for us to decide. Who are WE to judge?? Tho only true and final judge will be our Lord Jesus Christ and for all we know, these protestant artists may be closer to him than each one of us.
Pray for me,
Chris
short on time, so I can't say all I want to say, but here are the basics.
There are nothing wrong with these songs. Nothing at all. It is simply the church adapting to the culture of it's people. If we are worried about outside influence, then why is the British Orthodox Church, a daughter of the Coptic Orthodox Church, entitled to it's own tune and melody during the liturgy? Why don't the clergy of the BOC learn the Coptic tune and sing it that way? Because it is about connecting to the people. Is this not an outside influence? Why has no one protested against it? Is the church racist, adopting one culture but not the other?
Also, it is not only the BOC, but even within the COC there are devisions on how praise and worship is to be conducted. In the Coptic churches in Africa, the people sing and dance during communion! Why are they allowed to do this? Is is not "heresy" like some people are saying here on this forum? Because it is part of their culture and it brings them closer to Christ! In the same way, here in English speaking parts of the world, if we want to sing there religious songs, that were inspired by people of the culture, why is it wrong? First of all, not ALL Coptic Christians are Egyptian. I know in my church there are Asians, African Americans, and White people who attend. If we have all these converts, why are we closing our minds? Why don't we reach out and take them in and make them comfortable? How do I expect a recently converted African American individual in my church to spiritually benefit if all we allow them to sing are Cemoti and Esmo Epchois? How can we reach out like true Christians if all we do is keep to ourselves?
It's not change, its adaptation.
... Sorry that wasn't so short, but it nothing compared to all I wanted to say, as I am very heated about this topic and I find it completely insane how the people here are reacting on this forum, not just relating to the music, but we have strayed from the topic to judging and antagonizing the protestants! Their relationship with Christ is not for us to decide. Who are WE to judge?? Tho only true and final judge will be our Lord Jesus Christ and for all we know, these protestant artists may be closer to him than each one of us.
Pray for me,
Chris
Well the British Orthodox church assimilates for it's congregation
So you want our COPTIC orthodox church to "adapt" into the AOC (american orthodox church)
Every example you gave is assimilating to it's own culture... our culture is COPTIC.... we are not Americans....
and "adaptation" IS CHANGE! You can't NOT CHANGE if you're adapting! (i know it's a double negative... shut up lol)
And concerning "converts" there are converts here that will confirm this.... they didn't leave their original religion to come to a protestant culture... they came because they wanted the true Coptic experience and you know that is not what they get at our church!
and concerning the protestant thing... no one has said anything against protestants... but we are judging their religion! (which is not Christianity by the way)
If you want to adapt to the culture around you, go to a protestant church! Don't try to adapt our church to the protestant culture....
PS: this sounds like uncle samy!
The problem isn't being Coptic. It's at least being Orthodox. First and foremost we are Orthodox and we must bring the Orthodox faith to the youth. I'm all for teaching coptic, but its more important to teach Orthodoxy. We certainly should have songs in English for the youth, but their tune and content must be acceptable. Most of the songs written by Protestant artists have tunes meant to spark emotions and then the relationship to God can become empty emotions. That's what we mean by Orthodox tunes. It doesn't have to necessarily be coptic but it can't be just sparking emotions. Also they are sometimes theologically incorrect or incorrect in their themes.
There are however Orthodox songs. For example there is "From all tribes", "Just Like the Bird", "O seeker", so we can sing hymns in English etc.
Back in the days of Archdeacon Habib Guirgis, there was a growing Protestant movement in Egypt and so the Pope at the time, accompanied by Archdeacon Habib Guirgis, toured the churches to counteract the Protestant evangelism. During the tours this is what happened (This is from his biography): He didn't simply take the Protestant songs, he took the idea and made it Orthodox. We can sort of do the same. We can have english songs that are Orthodox in content. So we can provide an alternative without losing any of the Orthodox faith as is happening know. We could also teach a hymn in the time that those songs are usually sung.
Please pray for my weak self and please correct me if I'm wrong. Trust me I won't take offense to any correction.
[quote author=AikotiEnsok link=topic=10538.msg128852#msg128852 date=1296343825]
short on time, so I can't say all I want to say, but here are the basics.
There are nothing wrong with these songs. Nothing at all. It is simply the church adapting to the culture of it's people. If we are worried about outside influence, then why is the British Orthodox Church, a daughter of the Coptic Orthodox Church, entitled to it's own tune and melody during the liturgy? Why don't the clergy of the BOC learn the Coptic tune and sing it that way? Because it is about connecting to the people. Is this not an outside influence? Why has no one protested against it? Is the church racist, adopting one culture but not the other?
Also, it is not only the BOC, but even within the COC there are devisions on how praise and worship is to be conducted. In the Coptic churches in Africa, the people sing and dance during communion! Why are they allowed to do this? Is is not "heresy" like some people are saying here on this forum? Because it is part of their culture and it brings them closer to Christ! In the same way, here in English speaking parts of the world, if we want to sing there religious songs, that were inspired by people of the culture, why is it wrong? First of all, not ALL Coptic Christians are Egyptian. I know in my church there are Asians, African Americans, and White people who attend. If we have all these converts, why are we closing our minds? Why don't we reach out and take them in and make them comfortable? How do I expect a recently converted African American individual in my church to spiritually benefit if all we allow them to sing are Cemoti and Esmo Epchois? How can we reach out like true Christians if all we do is keep to ourselves?
It's not change, its adaptation.
... Sorry that wasn't so short, but it nothing compared to all I wanted to say, as I am very heated about this topic and I find it completely insane how the people here are reacting on this forum, not just relating to the music, but we have strayed from the topic to judging and antagonizing the protestants! Their relationship with Christ is not for us to decide. Who are WE to judge?? Tho only true and final judge will be our Lord Jesus Christ and for all we know, these protestant artists may be closer to him than each one of us.
Pray for me,
Chris
Well the British Orthodox church assimilates for it's congregation
So you want our COPTIC orthodox church to "adapt" into the AOC (american orthodox church)
Every example you gave is assimilating to it's own culture... our culture is COPTIC.... we are not Americans....
and "adaptation" IS CHANGE! You can't NOT CHANGE if you're adapting! (i know it's a double negative... shut up lol)
And concerning "converts" there are converts here that will confirm this.... they didn't leave their original religion to come to a protestant culture... they came because they wanted the true Coptic experience and you know that is not what they get at our church!
and concerning the protestant thing... no one has said anything against protestants... but we are judging their religion! (which is not Christianity by the way)
If you want to adapt to the culture around you, go to a protestant church! Don't try to adapt our church to the protestant culture....
PS: this sounds like uncle samy!
Abanoub, you know me, you know that I'm live and die for Coptic Orthodoxy and I love the hymns and the spirituality. You know how much I love our church and you know i will never leave her. However, honestly, I think the members of the Coptic community, as a result of their extreme love for the church (which is not bad!) like mine, have become extremely snobby. The church has become extremely pious. It is as if we believe that only Orthodox Christians are going to be saved. We believe that our form of worship is the best and only way. And like I said.. even COPTIC churches in Africa dance and clap as they worship! They truly feel the love of Christ and it makes them happy! It is not how we worship here in America, but it is NOT wrong!! I met an Abouna who moved here from Kenya, and he has trouble holding himself as he prays the liturgy! Also, even some of the Arabic tarneem that everybody know and loves were written by PROTESTANT Egyptians!!! Why do we not criticize them? DO they not send the same message as American protestant songs? They DO! And it is not a Orthodox message, neither a protestant message, but a CHRISTIAN message! Why do we differentiate these songs from the American ones? Its culture. We can't tell the difference between these Egyptian protestant songs and Orthodox ones (not including alhan) because they sound the same! Its not a Christian style of music, its an Egyptian style. This is all culture. Heres one of my favorite, and apparently heretical "protestant" songs:
"Empty Me" by Jeremy Camp
Holy Fire burn away,
My desire for anything
That is not of you and is of me.
I want more of you and less of me.
Holy Fire burn away,
My desire for anything
That is not of you and is of me,
I want more of you and less of me, yeah.
Empty me,
Empty me, yeah,
Fill, won’t you fill me,
With you, with you, yeah.
Holy Fire, burn away,
My desire for anything
That is not of you and is of me
I want more of you and less of me, yeah.
Empty me,
Empty me, yeah,
Fill, won’t you fill me,
With you, with you, yeah.
Holy Fire, burn away,
My desire for anything
That is not of you and less of me, yeah.
Empty me,
Empty me, yeah.
Fill, won’t you fill me, with you, with you, empty me now.
How is this theologically incorrect? Can anyone here find one thing wrong with this song? No, nothing. Im sure if we took out the instruments, changed the artist's name to Sarkis, and held each vowel for a 2 minute 37 second minimum, then it would be a great, acceptabe church hymn! The piousness of the Coptic Christians. It amazes me.
As a convert from protestantism, I feel the need to address a growing phenomena taking place within our very church. The introduction of aspects of protestantism, namely protestant songs and worship style presented as being Christian. It bothers me deeply for I have fought long and hard to find Orthodoxy and I will not stand by idle while she becomes tainted with heresy. I have talked with several youth who have complained that their youth meetings are essentially protestant worship sessions, and how much they dislike it. What is more, they complain and nobody hears them and this too is unacceptable. As baptized Orthodox Christians it is all of our duty to preserve the church, not to introduce fallacies or stand by and let it happen. The argument for the introduction of protestantism is that it helps keep the youth and bring more people in, and that protestantism is Christian. Neither of these is sound Orthodox teaching in any way shape or form.
To further prove this point we must take a much deeper look into what makes protestantism a polar opposite to Orthodoxy. When protestantism was invented, thats right it was invented by a man or men and not Christ through His apostles, it was founded on two basic doctrines. I call these the two pillars of protestantism, scripture as the sole authority (sola scriptura) and justification by faith alone (sola fide). Every denomination that considers itself to be Christian that came about after the 16th century is based on these two doctrines, even Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons. Neither doctrine is even close to being Orthodox, in fact they are not only conflicting but directly against Orthodoxy. Sola scriptura states that scripture is the sole authority on earth, this not only denies the Church as an authority but the priesthood as a whole. This is not Orthodox therefore we do not accept it, so can this be considered Christian?
Sola fide states that we are saved through justification by faith alone, some have even taken it further and invented salvation in a moment. This involves praying a prayer not found in scripture, contradicting sola scriptura, and you are saved. Sola fide is nothing more than an invention created by Martin Luther, a man so terrified of his own salvation he created this doctrine to make him feel better about it. Justification by faith alone denies ALL of the sacraments, which again conflicts with sola scriptura because Christ tells us to receive communion (Matthew 26: 26-28). This doctrine also conflicts with the epistle of St. James and Luther, the creator of sola fide, knew it and tried removing it from the bible calling it “an epistle of straw”. Do we consider this Christian? So what is it exactly that is Christian about them? Because they believe in Christ, or so I am assuming? If this is what some of our clergy is basing this off of then their case is weak as St. James tells us: “You believe that there is one God, you do well. Even the demons believe-and tremble.” ( James 2:19) So the demons believing in God tremble, because they know God, they know Christ and who He is, so technically they would have the same Christological understanding that we do, of course they have no hope of salvation which is the main difference. So shall we also consider demons Christians? This logic used by some of our clergy is dangerous and is misleading many.
Why is it that some feel it is necessary to introduce protestant hymns and worship into our beloved church? I have been told personally that it is to bring more people to the church and to modernize the church. Nothing could be more dangerous than this liberal mindset. Coptic Orthodoxy has the most rich and beautiful hymns ever written by the hand of man. Not only is it pleasing to God and to the ear of man, but the whole of our theology is contained within our Psalmody and hymns in some way. So there is no need to “modernize” our church because it is ahead of its time, introducing these superficial songs would only slow our progress. Another danger in introducing protestant songs and worship, especially to our youth, is that it is telling them that they are the same as us, that we accept protestantism as being equal to Orthodoxy. If this is true then what is the logical outcome? Take the path of least resistance which just happens to be protestantism. They do not fast 210 days out of the year as we do. They do not worship God because they love Him but because protestantism is about self interest in investing their future for when they die. Who would want to remain Orthodox, especially our youth, if you can get the same result doing less in protestantism? By believing protestantism to be Christian, we are making Orthodoxy relative and obsolete in the minds of the people and this also is unacceptable.
Shall we introduce Nestorian or Arian hymns, so long as they do not contradict with sound Orthodox teaching? Absolutely not! We do not all worship the same God but according to some of our clergy they would have us believe that we all worship Christ whom we share no common opinion. Protestantism has approximately 40,000 distinctly different denominations, would our clergy have us believe that God is telling them all different things? This would be blaspheming the work of the Holy Spirit! There is “One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism” (Ephesians 4:5) not many! Christ Himself says: “Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out many devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me you who work iniquity.”
Notice here Christ uses the word “iniquity” which means “lawlessness”. Is it Orthodox who practice lawlessly? Apostolic succession proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that we are the church Christ founded in Mt. 16:18, His church wont be conquered and thus should still be here, we can connect ourselves to that foundation. Protestantism is invented purely by the mind of men, not God. If Christ’s church will not be overcome, then it is in no need of “reformation” or any kind of “protest”. We have not strayed from Orthodox teaching, at least until now.
Protestantism rejects all of the sacraments, some still use a unrecognizable version of the liturgy, and some still have a few of the other sacraments, mostly the early protestant. Anglicans ordain homosexuals and women, and in one case a woman priestess served communion to a dog! The sacraments are not sacred to the lawless. And certainly does not make them Christian since they are not part of the church or have left the grace of the Holy Spirit by rejecting the church and its sacraments.
“For there will come a time when they will not endure sound doctrine, but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears. And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned aside unto fables.” (2 Timothy 4:3-4) Martin Luther was terrified of his salvation, worrying that he would be condemned to hell. This same ideology exists within many protestant churches, as to them it is about getting to heaven, not loving Christ. Luther created justification by faith alone (sola fide) to quell this fear inside him, now he did not have to worry because he simply needed to believe. This is dangerous and lulls people into a lax spiritual lifestyle, putting their salvation into jeopardy even more than before.
“For that day will not come unless the falling away comes first and the man of sin revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.” (2 Thess. 2:3-4) The falling away, or apostasy, is a slow falling away from the faith and could be traced back even to 1054 or the 4th council, if one wanted to get technical. Either way it picked up a lot of momentum in the 16th century when protestantism was created and now we see multitudes of denominations calling themselves Christian, yet not even closely resembling Orthodoxy. How is it that we should accept protestantism as Christian? There is no reason to, in fact I would argue that doing so is siding with heresy and undoing what our church fathers have done in defending the faith against these types of heresies.
We must not be deceived by the wolf at the door just because he dresses as a lamb. Satan has been attacking our church from the beginning and our present time mirrors that of the early church, persecution and heresies. Why would anything change? Our adversary has been perfecting his tactics longer than any of us have been alive and the necessity to know our history and the writings of the early church fathers is great. Our early church fathers would NOT stand for this and we must regard them as an authority, we must study their example for Orthodoxy is here as a result of their zeal. “How can he have God as a father without having the church as his mother.” The words of St. Cyprian of Carthage who echoes the words of the early church fathers in saying that the church is essential in our salvation, how can we know God and actively reject His church?
In closing I would like to urge our brothers and sisters to know and understand our church, to follow the examples set forth not only by Christ in scripture but of our early church fathers and their abundance of wisdom. How can we let this happen?
The weakest servant of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ,
John
[quote author=christ_rose link=topic=10538.msg128149#msg128149 date=1295995077]
My brother Dzheremi
PRotestants are christians are they not?? or would you judge them and condemn them to hell??
Catholics are christians are they not?? or will you say that just because they are an apostolic church that maybe theyll get to heaven??
ORthodox are christians are they not or will the greek orthodox not get to heaven ???
Or just us and the five oriental churches??
THE END OF EACH OF THESE RELIGIONS SAYS CHRISTIAN YES OR NO?????????????????????????? im not telling you go be a muslim or a hindu
but ur not obeying gods commandemts! love others!! do we love protestants or no?? are we condemning them?? you know something we talk about them in a horrible way and yet they treat us with much respect!! im not going to dance in church ever. and thats not my culture! but i will clap to praise the name of my LORD AND SAVIOR WHEN HIS HOLY SPIIRT FILLS ME SOO MUCH THAT THE ONLY OUTPOUR I CAN HAVE IS CLAPPING WHEN I WISH I COULD FLYY???? the liturgy should only bewith the cymbals and the tirianto! i agree with that because that is how we have learned to worship but outside the liturgy we must have full out praise!!! Why is it that we are creating separation???
we have orthodox and catholic and protestant and lutheran and this and that!! lets talk about practicing christians TRUE CHRISTIANS not the ones by name!! who are you to tell anyone else how to praise god???? be open minded and have a loving heart and be humble and look at your CHRISTIAN BRETHREN WITH LOVE!!!!!!! accept them as christ would!!! or will you shun them liek the muslims shun their brothers!!
we are CHRISTIAN !!! GOD IS LOVE!!! why do we show hard headedness and islam in our CHRISTIAN FAITH!!! when christ was a simple loving humble being!! FOLLOW IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF GOD!!!!!!!! dont dare compare yourself to a church father or another human being!!! Be perfect just as your FATHER in heaven is perfect Matthew 5 42. do u want to be like god ?? or like another person?? OUR ONLY MEDIATOR IS CHRIST!!! BE OF CHRIST!!!!!!!
:-* I LOVE YOU :-*
Amen!
Coptic Orthodoxy Christianity - What? You changed the original Greek liturgy into Coptic so the Egyptians would understand??? What? you took the pagan songs that were originally used to praise the Pharaoh and used them to praise Christ the King [look into the history of Epouro]? You took the temples that were dedicated to idols and converted them churches? WHY THAT'S HERESY! How could you use anything modern to worship Christ?!! Why, you should have used the original Greek - who cares if no one understood. You should have stuck to ONLY GREEK SONGS! How could you use a popular cultural song to praise GOD?! HERETICS!
I'm sorry, but all this antagonism towards Protestantism is frustrating me! ISN'T THIS PRECISELY WHAT CHRIST CRITICIZED THE PHARISEES FOR!!!! They thought they were perfect - they had their rules - they had their ancient tradition -- but the publican, the adulterous, the Samaritan --- they were the ones who had the true hearts and were of so much more worth in Christ's eyes. Orthodoxy is beautiful -- but not when it causes us to judge and belittle others -- not when we don't have our hearts with it and are only worshiping with our bodies while judging others who don't worship the same way.
When I went to college, I looked down on Protestants after reading all the antagonism on this forum. When I eventually joined a Campus Ministry, I was HUMBLED, at how dedicated and spiritual many Protestants were. They knew the Bible backwards and forwards and could pull verses up so easily - I was left in the dust! Many were so dedicated in applying Christianity to their modern lives --- so much more than many Orthodox I met. OF COURSE, you will find some that only are Christians in name and not in heart. OF COURSE, you will find some that believe they are saved but don't show Christ really working in their lives. OF COURSE, you will find some that go to Bible Study only to leave and go to a party -- BUT let's open our eyes -- ISN'T this happening with many of us in the Orthodox church.
OF COURSE there are branches of protestantism that are not inspired by the Holy Spirit - that are started by the pride or selfish desire of the founder. BUT in the end GOD WILL LOOK AT THE HEART!!! Heretics will be condemned by their arrogance. The Protestants who loved GOD with all their mind, body, and spirit --that dedicated everything to spread GOD's word and to serve him with all they had and rid themselves of their own desires -- what of they?? What would you do if YOU had to make the decision? "I'm sorry, you are going to hell. You loved Christ and you served Him all your life, but I'm sorry - your songs of worship had guitars in them and you believed that Jesus had brothers and sisters - that is instant condemnation. I'm sorry, better luck next time"
LET US OPEN OUR MINDS AND OUR EYES. Let us look to what CHRIST YELLED at the Pharisees for! It's the HEART that counts!!! THE HEART!!!
---
Ok rant over ---
Please GOD guide us!!! KEEP US STRONG IN THE RIGHT TEACHING, BUT TEACH US YOUR LOVE!!! TO LOVE AS YOU LOVED AND TO SEE AS YOU SAW!!!!
The issue is not DIFFERENCE, but allowing that which is not Orthodox into the Church.
Are you suggesting that because Rap music is used in the world around us it should be used in the Church? There are many sound and Orthodox forms of worship in English which could be used - I have addressed this in my posts. What is being introduced is not ancient Orthodox hymns in English, it is not the Psalms sung in English, it is an entirely different form of worship with an entirely different objective to Orthodox worship.
I found myself in an evangelical place of worship yesterday where there was much of such music, with an electronic band. Had I not been there as a representative of the Church I think I would have walked out. It reminded me as an ex-protestant, and therefore with more experience than almost any others here, why I left protestantism and became Orthodox. It was not the worship of God, it was the creation of a mood, and a mood that made me feel deeply uncomfortable.
Had I been in a traditional protestant Church I would not have felt so ill at ease. There might have been other concerns, but the worship would not have bothered me. But modern evangelical pentecostal worship is deeply disturbing to me. I had to pray the Jesus Prayer throughout it.
Father Peter
You're right about judging Protestants. We should never judge a Protestant person. However Protestants aren't Protestantism. I should never judge a protestant because many are more righteous than me, and we are commanded not to judge anyone. However Protestantism is to be judged, just like heresies are to be judged. This must be done out of love, though. Just as the ideology of heresies are judged, not out of hate but out of love. I also should be humbled that we have the Orthodox Faith and yet there are Protestants who are closer to Christ than I am. Many of them aren't aware though, of the problems of Protestantism and it is our job to be vessels of Christ and to bring them to Orthodox Christianity. You're right, we can't think of ourselves as perfect, and we have to take the example of the Pharisees personally. However, when a bad ideology was condemned, we don't say that the council was being like the Pharisees. Again we can't condemn them as people. That's wrong especially when we're so sinful. I'm sure that there are Protestants who eclipse me in their Spirituality and their closeness to Christ. That of course shouldn't mean we take Protestant beliefs or non-Orthodox songs in our church.
Again, we shouldn't look down on Protestants. However it is our job to take them to the fullness of Christianity. The one true Church which is the Orthodox Church. If we actually love them we wouldn't be afraid to say this and this belief is wrong, and to show them the fullness of the spirituality of Orthodoxy. We can't benefit much from borrowing Protestant songs, especially when we have Orthodox songs and Orthodox hymns.
Please pray for me
We do not judge protestants. We do not even say that protestantism is not Christian, it is clearly derived through an historical process from Christianity. BUT IN ALL IT'S DISTINCTIVES IT IS ERROR, IT IS HERESY.
WE should be reaching out to protestants with the truth for THEIR salvation, not introducing their error into the Holy Church for our condemnation.
If someone is a drug addict we condemn their addiction and we absolutely do not embrace it ourselves, but we love the one who is addicted. To condemn their addiction is not to condemn them. To condemn a heresy is not to judge those persons who embrace it. Protestantism is absolutely a Christian heresy, or rather a collection of Christian heresies.
Father Peter
For the sake of safeguarding our people against apostasy we need to make clear distinctions, not in a hostile way, but in a truthful loving way. If we accept the multitude of protestant denominations as Christian, what is to stop us from accepting other heresies? I have a difficult time explaining this to people and it may just be the fact that I am not well educated or that I cannot convey myself well to others, but I feel strongly that we need to make this known to our brothers and sisters. There is no need nor purpose to integrate protestant songs or worship into the church, that is my personal opinion.
[quote author=AikotiEnsok link=topic=10538.msg128609#msg128609 date=1296169762]
[quote author=christ_rose link=topic=10538.msg128149#msg128149 date=1295995077]
My brother Dzheremi
PRotestants are christians are they not?? or would you judge them and condemn them to hell??
Catholics are christians are they not?? or will you say that just because they are an apostolic church that maybe theyll get to heaven??
ORthodox are christians are they not or will the greek orthodox not get to heaven ???
Or just us and the five oriental churches??
THE END OF EACH OF THESE RELIGIONS SAYS CHRISTIAN YES OR NO?????????????????????????? im not telling you go be a muslim or a hindu
but ur not obeying gods commandemts! love others!! do we love protestants or no?? are we condemning them?? you know something we talk about them in a horrible way and yet they treat us with much respect!! im not going to dance in church ever. and thats not my culture! but i will clap to praise the name of my LORD AND SAVIOR WHEN HIS HOLY SPIIRT FILLS ME SOO MUCH THAT THE ONLY OUTPOUR I CAN HAVE IS CLAPPING WHEN I WISH I COULD FLYY???? the liturgy should only bewith the cymbals and the tirianto! i agree with that because that is how we have learned to worship but outside the liturgy we must have full out praise!!! Why is it that we are creating separation???
we have orthodox and catholic and protestant and lutheran and this and that!! lets talk about practicing christians TRUE CHRISTIANS not the ones by name!! who are you to tell anyone else how to praise god???? be open minded and have a loving heart and be humble and look at your CHRISTIAN BRETHREN WITH LOVE!!!!!!! accept them as christ would!!! or will you shun them liek the muslims shun their brothers!!
we are CHRISTIAN !!! GOD IS LOVE!!! why do we show hard headedness and islam in our CHRISTIAN FAITH!!! when christ was a simple loving humble being!! FOLLOW IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF GOD!!!!!!!! dont dare compare yourself to a church father or another human being!!! Be perfect just as your FATHER in heaven is perfect Matthew 5 42. do u want to be like god ?? or like another person?? OUR ONLY MEDIATOR IS CHRIST!!! BE OF CHRIST!!!!!!!
:-* I LOVE YOU :-*
Amen!
Coptic Orthodoxy Christianity - What? You changed the original Greek liturgy into Coptic so the Egyptians would understand??? What? you took the pagan songs that were originally used to praise the Pharaoh and used them to praise Christ the King [look into the history of Epouro]? You took the temples that were dedicated to idols and converted them churches? WHY THAT'S HERESY! How could you use anything modern to worship Christ?!! Why, you should have used the original Greek - who cares if no one understood. You should have stuck to ONLY GREEK SONGS! How could you use a popular cultural song to praise GOD?! HERETICS!
I'm sorry, but all this antagonism towards Protestantism is frustrating me! ISN'T THIS PRECISELY WHAT CHRIST CRITICIZED THE PHARISEES FOR!!!! They thought they were perfect - they had their rules - they had their ancient tradition -- but the publican, the adulterous, the Samaritan --- they were the ones who had the true hearts and were of so much more worth in Christ's eyes. Orthodoxy is beautiful -- but not when it causes us to judge and belittle others -- not when we don't have our hearts with it and are only worshiping with our bodies while judging others who don't worship the same way.
When I went to college, I looked down on Protestants after reading all the antagonism on this forum. When I eventually joined a Campus Ministry, I was HUMBLED, at how dedicated and spiritual many Protestants were. They knew the Bible backwards and forwards and could pull verses up so easily - I was left in the dust! Many were so dedicated in applying Christianity to their modern lives --- so much more than many Orthodox I met. OF COURSE, you will find some that only are Christians in name and not in heart. OF COURSE, you will find some that believe they are saved but don't show Christ really working in their lives. OF COURSE, you will find some that go to Bible Study only to leave and go to a party -- BUT let's open our eyes -- ISN'T this happening with many of us in the Orthodox church.
OF COURSE there are branches of protestantism that are not inspired by the Holy Spirit - that are started by the pride or selfish desire of the founder. BUT in the end GOD WILL LOOK AT THE HEART!!! Heretics will be condemned by their arrogance. The Protestants who loved GOD with all their mind, body, and spirit --that dedicated everything to spread GOD's word and to serve him with all they had and rid themselves of their own desires -- what of they?? What would you do if YOU had to make the decision? "I'm sorry, you are going to hell. You loved Christ and you served Him all your life, but I'm sorry - your songs of worship had guitars in them and you believed that Jesus had brothers and sisters - that is instant condemnation. I'm sorry, better luck next time"
LET US OPEN OUR MINDS AND OUR EYES. Let us look to what CHRIST YELLED at the Pharisees for! It's the HEART that counts!!! THE HEART!!!
---
Ok rant over ---
Please GOD guide us!!! KEEP US STRONG IN THE RIGHT TEACHING, BUT TEACH US YOUR LOVE!!! TO LOVE AS YOU LOVED AND TO SEE AS YOU SAW!!!!
Amen!!
:-* I love you too! :-*