imikhail
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[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=13535.msg158796#msg158796 date=1344824604] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13535.msg158776#msg158776 date=1344793042] How did you reach the conclusion that he was in fact talking abut the Cherubic hymn and not the…
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In any case, my use of St. Athanasius was addressed primarily to IMikhail, who uses Isaiah 6 as a foundation to his argument that the Trisagion has ALWAYS been Christological. Dear Mina Soliman, Would St Athanasius disagree that the Person whom I…
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Dear Mina Soliman, First let me thank you for addressing me by "dear". It is refreshing after a heated discussion. I am guilty of not using it more often. Second, forgive me for addressing the points you raised in your last post in different post…
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RamzyM To summarize your points in post 88: We both agree that Ibn Sibaa cites tradition as the basis for the christological Trisagion. We both agree on Fr. Athanasius to him referring to Isaiah as the basis for the christological Trisagion. You…
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5- Finally, I am very glad imikhail finally brought up Fr. Shenouda Maher, waving him around as another big name that I am unfortunately going against. RamzM You never said why would you disagree with Fr. Shenouda. You say that you have his ar…
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3- Regarding Fr. Athanasius Almaqarry, here is what he wrote about this: "And it [the Trisagion] depends in its origin on the text of Isaiah the prophet 6:3". This is my translation of the Arabic text, "wa taatamed fi aslaha ala nass Asheya Alnabi 6…
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4- I did not notice that imikhail referred to Brownlie until he reminded me here, so I had to do some digging. Turns out, Brownlie seems to be significantly confused about the whole thing, even calling the Trisagion "The Cherubic Hymn". Given that t…
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1- Ibn Saba does not say anything about the Trisagion being based on Isaiah 6:3. What he does say is the tradition about the Trisagion based on the prayer of Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea at the burial of Christ, as well as some other numerolog…
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"This is what the Coptic Church says" without providing sufficient references, or official documents, or a majority agreement by bishops or the Synod, doesn't make you the authoritative ambassador speaking for the Coptic Church. It is always easy …
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[quote author=Severian link=topic=9585.msg158767#msg158767 date=1344654231] ^He explicitly defends the belief that we inherit Adam's fault, which is the same thing. I wonder what Fr. Peter has to say on the matter. And on the website linked to in m…
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[quote author=Severian link=topic=9585.msg158765#msg158765 date=1344653251] ^Here: http://www.metroplit-bishoy.org/files/papersarticles/Max Mishel.doc Toward the end of Kamal Zakher’s article, was the following passage in defense of Max Michel in Dr…
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[quote author=Severian link=topic=9585.msg158763#msg158763 date=1344652553] ^When we say "original sin" we are referring to the belief that we inherit Adam's actual guilt or sin. I would go as far as to say that it is okay to use the term "original …
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[quote author=Severian link=topic=9585.msg158754#msg158754 date=1344634919] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=9585.msg158752#msg158752 date=1344631275] Can we please refrain from talking about personal matters of the current clergy and instead focus…
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Can we please refrain from talking about personal matters of the current clergy and instead focus on the topic at hand? Just a suggestion.
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[quote author=The least of all link=topic=9585.msg158742#msg158742 date=1344625204] Severian is pointing out the fact that the teaching that we inherit the guilt and actual SIN of Adam and Eve is becoming far too rampant in the Church and is directl…
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"So when I said in Reply #65, "However, these are only a handful of references with one understading. We may find other fathers who understood Isaiah 6 as Trinitarian. More research is needed." I was correct. Reminkimi, I am afraid you were not …
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[quote author=Severian link=topic=9585.msg158727#msg158727 date=1344561167] As I said on OC.Net: [quote author=Severian on OC.Net] You see, the problem with this is that far too many OO Clergy and Theologians argue in favor of the wrong beliefs of …
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then Ibn Sibaa, Bar Salibi, Fr Abdel Messeh, Fr Athanasius, Fr Shenouda, or anybody else you want to mention whom you claim believe Isaiah 6 and the Liturgical Trisagion are identical texts I did not say that they believe they are identical texts…
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Let's make this simple. Does Isaiah 6 say "Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, (with additions), have mercy on us"? If yes, then Ibn Sibaa, Bar Salibi, Fr Abdel Messeh, Fr Athanasius, Fr Shenouda, or anybody else you want to mention whom you clai…
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but what is not fine dogmatically is to insert Christological phrases in an otherwise Trinitarian prayer (or the other way around if the Christological phrases were always there). I am still quite baffled by this opinion. So, I will give it anothe…
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while I am simply saying the Isaiah vision (or Revelation for that matter) is not the liturgical Trisagion at all, but the anaphoral sanctus. So you are saying that Ibn Sibaa is wrong and Bar Salibi is wrong, our Koulagion by Abouna Abd Al Messieh…
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However, the Trisagion we say in the Liturgy of the Word before the Gospel (in the Coptic rite) is not one Trisagion, but a triple Trisagion. In this case, it is very difficult to prove that the repetition of the Trisagion three times addresses the…
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It is also possible that the Chalcedonians had developed the Trisagion without Christological elements before the 5th century. That is not true. Jerusalem rite, the Latin rite and the Byzantine rite allowed the Christological understanding. If…
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[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=13535.msg158631#msg158631 date=1344392327] [quote author=RamezM link=topic=13535.msg158613#msg158613 date=1344372669] I have a couple questions however. You say that both Chalcedonians and non-Chalcedonians claim th…
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[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=13535.msg158626#msg158626 date=1344388844] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13535.msg158617#msg158617 date=1344375761] [center]Isaiah vision in Chapter 6 to be about the Son [/center] Scriptural Evidence St John …
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Please pm me if you wish to have the complete research about the Trisagion controversy.
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[center]Isaiah vision in Chapter 6 to be about the Son [/center] Scriptural Evidence St John the Evangelist comments saying: "These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him." John 12:41 Church Fathers: Origen: It is clear, t…
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[quote author=RamezM link=topic=13535.msg158613#msg158613 date=1344372669] Hi Remenkimi, Thanks for chiming in, sir! I am very glad someone else decided to join the conversation, as I feel that now we can have a productive discussion in which both …
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[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=13535.msg158597#msg158597 date=1344361205] Ramez is not saying the Chalcedonian Triasagion version is more authentic. He is merely stating the Non-Chalcedonian formula, as we have it today, seems to shift the subjec…
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it is perfectly understood by everyone that the version without the Christological additions, and which is used today by the Eastern Orthodox is the more original. It is important to know why the Chalcedonians are using the original formula. They …