Hi everyone this is my first post.
I'm very interested in both Eastern and Oriental orthodoxy, but I am confused about your use of icons. I searched your forum to see if this has been asked before but I couldn't find what I was looking for? Excuse me if I have missed it.
My questions are:
How do you justify the use of icons. In other words what are they for?
Are icons not in breach of the Ten Commandments (specifically Exodus 20:4-5)?
Why do you venerate saints and images of saints and why have saints at all? Surely only God has the right to decide who a saint is, as all men are sinners.
Do you feel that Protestant churches are false churches because they have more or less rejected iconry? Surely they are simply doing what they think is right by eliminating idolatry.
Thanks in advance for your replies.
Comments
It is important to note that in no way do any orthodox worship an icon as a god. Any type of worship is nothing more than a worship of respect to a person/saint who is still alive. If anyone makes it to heaven, they are alive. They can pray for us. They can ask God to have mercy on us just as He had mercy on them. The icons in the church are not idols, but a presence of those alive in heaven protecting us and praying for us in order for us to truly be united to our God and Savior Jesus Christ.
So, icons in the church represent the life of a saint. You are correct, that none of us can truly judge whether a person is a saint or not. However, our church takes precautions as to not let affection to a person be a judgement as to whether He is a saint or not. In general, it takes a minimum of 50 years after the saints passing before they decide whether we canonize him a saint or not. In some scenario's you can be sure the saint is truly a saint. Especially if he continuously does miracles in people's lives after his/her death. Saint Mary is a perfect example. Appearing several times all over the world to the extent that even muslims now fast for her. Can someone who is dead truly do that? Offcourse not. She is alive. She is among us. She asks her Son to have mercy on us. She protects us. The icon represents her, and reminds us of her. Reminds us that she is around us, she is next to Christ and praying for us. If you enter our church you will notice that you are seated towards the prayer offered to Christ but you are completely surrounded by the icons. As a reminder that we are going in church to get to heaven. And the saints, those who died in flesh but are alive in Spirit, are with us, protecting us and guiding us towards heaven towards our God to whom we are oriented to pray to.
This is in fact a very simplistic explanation of icons, and much more can be explained, but I hope that addresses somehwat your question.
And as for Protestant churches, I will refrain from discussing much as I am no expert. However, Iconry is in no way related to our belief that Protestant church may be false. Iconry is a supplement and not the focus of our relationship with God. It is not necessary for salvation.
'Idolatry is a pejorative term for the worship of an idol or a physical object such as a cult image as a god.' - Wikipedia
It is important to note that in no way do any orthodox worship an idol as a god. Any type of worship is nothing more than a worship of respect to a person/saint who is still alive. If anyone makes it to heaven, they are alive. They can pray for us. They can ask God to have mercy on us just as He had mercy on them. The icons in the church are not idols, but a presence of those alive in heaven protecting us and praying for us in order for us to truly be united to our God and Savior Jesus Christ.
So, icons in the church represent the life of a saint. You are correct, that none of us can truly judge whether a person is a saint or not. However, our church takes precautions as to not let affection to a person be a judgement as to whether He is a saint or not. In general, it takes a minimum of 50 years after the saints passing before they decide whether we canonize him a saint or not. In some scenario's you can be sure the saint is truly a saint. Especially if he continuously does miracles in people's lives after his/her death. Saint Mary is a perfect example. Appearing several times all over the world to the extent that even muslims now fast for her. Can someone who is dead truly do that? Offcourse not. She is alive. She is among us. She asks her Son to have mercy on us. She protects us. The icon represents her, and reminds us of her. Reminds us that she is around us, she is next to Christ and praying for us. If you enter our church you will notice that you are seated towards the prayer offered to Christ but you are completely surrounded by the icons. As a reminder that we are going in church to get to heaven. And the saints, those who died in flesh but are alive in Spirit are with us, protecting us and guiding us towards heaven towards our God to whom we are oriented to pray to.
This is in fact a very simplistic explanation of icons, and much more can be explained, but I hope that addresses somehwat to your question.
And as for Protestant churches, I will refrain from discussing much as I am no expert. However, Iconry is in no way related to our belief that Protestant church may be false. Iconry is a supplement and not the focus of our relationship with God. It is not necessary for salvation.
Thanks.
Therefore saints are not in a position to intercede on anyone's behalf.
Do you not know that demons will often mimic those who are dead? How can you be so sure that intercession by saints is not a Satanic phenomenon?
The spirit does not die.
- And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
The spirit does not die.
I never said that the spirit died, but it sleeps in peace until the resurrection.
"And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him." Matthew 17:3
Specific instances of specific people do not suggest that all the other saints have been resurrected. According to the Bible it is forbidden to contact the dead!
For this particular instance however, how would you justify it biblically? And how would you justify your statement biblically?
I am providing you verses, and you are providing me personal interpretations. It would be helpful to see a verse in particular so we can discuss. No verse should contradict each other.
For this particular instance however, how would you justify it biblically? And how would you justify your statement biblically?
Deuteronomy 18
10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer,
11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.
Is communicating with the Saints not 'calling up the dead'?
Intercession is hardly "calling up the dead." LOL. Read in context. The verse is against spiritism. Calling the dead as in voodoo and the like. Black magic. But even this verse would seem to contradict your original point. If it forbids the calling up of the dead, it necessitates that the dead can in fact be called up. And if they can be called up, then they are alive outside this realm. I think if you read the verse in context, you would blush at being so bold as to bring it up.
To say, "My Grandfather is watching over me" is hardly necromancy. And if you wish to read the verse and interpret it so openly, then Christ is no savior. He is a sorcerer.
Ray
I was going to reply and say almost the same, but I'd like to add. Saints are not dead. They are alive!
You cannot play both sides of the field. You promote soul sleep as a general rule, and when it is shown through the Transfiguration account that this is not true, you say that it is an exception. Well yes, typically saints do not appear, but that fact that they have in one instance means that they at least exist. There is no other philosophically sound conclusion. An exception, while rare, exists.
Intercession is hardly "calling up the dead." LOL. Read in context. The verse is against spiritism. Calling the dead as in voodoo and the like. Black magic. But even this verse would seem to contradict your original point. If it forbids the calling up of the dead, it necessitates that the dead can in fact be called up. And if they can be called up, then they are alive outside this realm. I think if you read the verse in context, you would blush at being so bold as to bring it up.
To say, "My Grandfather is watching over me" is hardly necromancy. And if you wish to read the verse and interpret it so openly, then Christ is no savior. He is a sorcerer.
Ray
Firstly, liking the saints to Elijah is not the same thing. You are giving the 'manmade' saints the same status as Biblical prophets.
Secondly, an apparent intercession by a Saint does not prove that they exist. As I have stated already demons often impersonate the dead. The Lord forbids such practises because it gives Satan the chance to deceive.
1) Moses is dead.
2) Moses appeared beside Christ (not a demon.)
3) Therefore Moses is a saint (if we define saint as someone who is dead, but alive AND ACTIVE outside this realm.)
Now, lets take #3 and make it a premise for our next syllogism:
1) Moses is a saint.
2) If one saint exists in reality (transfiguration account), then the concept of a saint exists in reality.
3)Therefore the concept of a saint exists in reality.
Now, lets take #3 and make it a premise for the next syllogism:
1) The concept of a saint exists in reality.
2) If the concept of a saint exists in reality, then saints exist in reality.
3) Therefore saints exist in reality.
Essentially, as long as I prove the existence of one saint, then your position can only become that "Saints are rare." But you cannot say that they do not exist. Read through the above syllogistic reasoning, and point to what part you disagree with. The logic seems impeccable.
Ray
Thats it. You're on the Hot seet lol What on Gods green earth is a man-made saint. What is the difference between a Saint like Moses and a Saint like Athanasius. Just because one is older than another? Both were saintly men. Both led God's people. Both died. Both were called saints by other humans. Why is Moses any different? Because he was in the Bible? I regret to inform you that the Bible is the written accounts of men. Men wrote the Bible under God's inspiration (those same men who considered Moses a saint). The church considered St. Athanasius a saint under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. I will not let you get away with a shallow answer like that. Give me specifics. What is the difference between Moses and Athanasius? You aren't a philosophy major are you? Let me break this down for you.
1) Moses is dead.
2) Moses appeared beside Christ (not a demon.)
3) Therefore Moses is a saint (if we define saint as someone who is dead, but alive AND ACTIVE outside this realm.)
Now, lets take #3 and make it a premise for our next syllogism:
1) Moses is a saint.
2) If one saint exists in reality (transfiguration account), then the concept of a saint exists in reality.
3)Therefore the concept of a saint exists in reality.
Now, lets take #3 and make it a premise for the next syllogism:
1) The concept of a saint exists in reality.
2) If the concept of a saint exists in reality, then saints exist in reality.
3) Therefore saints exist in reality.
Essentially, as long as I prove the existence of one saint, then your position can only become that "Saints are rare." But you cannot say that they do not exist. Read through the above syllogistic reasoning, and point to what part you disagree with. The logic seems impeccable.
Ray
What is the difference Moses and Athanasius? I don't know, but then again what is the difference between Moses and my friend next door? You have no right to determine who a Saint is.
You also use the excuse that just because they are not in the Bible does not mean that they are not Saints? Really?
The Bible may have been written by men but it was inspired by God. Why is it not then an ongoing process? Does God no longer inspire us?
Perhaps you should carry on writing the Bible and add your own books, because this is what you are implying.
You also criticise my logic, but yours is deeply flawed. You accuse me of shallow answers. My answer is perfectly reasonable but when I provide Bibilical proof that you should NOT call up the dead, you accuse me of taking it out of context. It says what it says and means what it says. You do not call up the dead. Period!
What do you not understand about that? What makes you think that what you do makes you an exception to that rule?
Then there is the bit about Mary appearing to Muslims. So what? Muslims do not believe that Jesus is the Christ, and as salvation only comes from Christ then Mary can appear to Muslims as many times as she likes, it makes no difference. The Biblical Mary is not even the same person as the Qu'ranic Mary. In fact if Mary does appear to non-believers such as Muslims then I would be inclined to think that this really is a demonic apparition.
You pray to idols, but then you make excuses about intercession. Call it by whatever name you like. Idolatry is still idolatry.
You are meant to pray to Jesus and nobody else.
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=14587.msg165735#msg165735 date=1377277786]
You cannot play both sides of the field. You promote soul sleep as a general rule, and when it is shown through the Transfiguration account that this is not true, you say that it is an exception. Well yes, typically saints do not appear, but that fact that they have in one instance means that they at least exist. There is no other philosophically sound conclusion. An exception, while rare, exists.
Intercession is hardly "calling up the dead." LOL. Read in context. The verse is against spiritism. Calling the dead as in voodoo and the like. Black magic. But even this verse would seem to contradict your original point. If it forbids the calling up of the dead, it necessitates that the dead can in fact be called up. And if they can be called up, then they are alive outside this realm. I think if you read the verse in context, you would blush at being so bold as to bring it up.
To say, "My Grandfather is watching over me" is hardly necromancy. And if you wish to read the verse and interpret it so openly, then Christ is no savior. He is a sorcerer.
Ray
Firstly, liking the saints to Elijah is not the same thing. You are giving the 'manmade' saints the same status as Biblical prophets.
Secondly, an apparent intercession by a Saint does not prove that they exist. As I have stated already demons often impersonate the dead. The Lord forbids such practises because it gives Satan the chance to deceive.
Truthseeker,
I am confused now. Are we discussing iconry or the validity of Saints? Because many of our icons depict these same prophets that you refer to. Moses and Elijah are alive, and guiding us and protecting us.
It seems to me we are going in circles. Saints are not dead. We do not call upon the dead. Everytime you respond, I feel like everything I said earlier would be a sufficient response. I see no reason to respond over and over again the same thing.
Saints are not dead. We talked earlier about Moses and Aaron and somehow it is ok with you that they appeared in the transfiguration because they were referenced in the bible. Saint Mary was referenced in the bible. She gave birth to our Savior. God looked down from heaven and found no one like her - I mean, she did gave birth to the Son of God!! There is no need to try to convince anyone of anything. What we are explaining is our faith. We believe saints are alive. We believe they love us and want us to join them in heaven. We believe we are one Body in Christ with them. They are alive and I truly believe it. And I ask any help I can so that I be sure I am with my Father. I love Christ. But in my sinful nature I fail to show him. The saints have lived like us and understand us. I can relate to them. I can remember their story as an inspiration. I do not worship them. They are not gods. They simply are alive and I ask for their help. It is in the loving nature of any Christian in heaven. They want to help us and join them and not be a dead member of the body of Christ. We are one body.
In any case, we are clearly going in circles. I am unsure if it is a question of interest or a question to argue? Personally, I offer my little understanding. It seems to me you are trying to defy it, and not understand it. Because in the end my answer will simply be the same as my first three. It is not in my interest to cause divisions or heated discussions that could simply lead to offend one or the other. For such reasons, I will refrain from replying unless I see that I could add anything more.
God bless you and reward you in your quest for truth.
Pray for me
I worship Christ, and I honor the saints for no reason except that Christ shines through them. I believe that those who are united with Christ cannot die. You seem to believe that they can die.
Ray
I worship Christ, and I honor the saints for no reason except that Christ shines through them. I believe that those who are united with Christ cannot die. You seem to believe that they can die.
Ray
Firstly, I never said that you didn't worship God. Whether you are right or I am right, I do not believe this to be a salvation issue.
The Bible is meant to be taken literally. How else do we interpret it?
Yes, Jesus broke the Sabbath, but he explained how and why. I don't recall him saying that it was now ok to call up the dead. Does that mean that we just automatically disregard all of the OT then?
What do you mean when you ask me how I decide how to interpret scripture. What, do you mean, just me or me and millions of other non-Orthodox Christians who think the same?
Also you claim that I should listen to the voice of the Universal Church that has spoken for two Millennia. Now which Church would that be? The Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church or the Assyrian Church of the East? Maybe you mean some other Nestorian Church. No, sorry, you actually said a Universal one. Well let me think..... there isn't a universal Church although some do have the pride to claim that there's has to be the one. First we had the Chalcedonian split and then the great Schism, so now we have three Universal churches, four if you include the surviving non-Roman/Greek ones. That's almost laughable! It's exactly this sort of squabbling and bickering that led
to Christians studying the Bible for themselves, turning away from pride and false teachings and setting up their own churches. Unfortunately some got it completely wrong, but others got it right.
Why do I need proof that you pray to idols? You've already told me that you do. You've admitted it but you're calling it something else.
I don't deny that there are Saints. But what right do you have to determine who is one? How do you know that people you call Saints are actually saints?
Then you ask me if I'm sure that I worship Christ (oh, nice little attack there). Yes, I do worship Christ as a matter of fact, I just don't worship saints, nor do I pray to them. There's actually a difference, in case you didn't realise!
I wont respond because your responses already throw away your position. BTW, you say this is not a salvation issue, yet you say I worship idols. Idol worshiping is a salvation issue my blaspheming friend :D
Are you kidding me? Speaking to protestants makes me thank God I'm Orthodox lol.
I wont respond because your responses already throw away your position. BTW, you say this is not a salvation issue, yet you say I worship idols. Idol worshiping is a salvation issue my blaspheming friend :D
Ok, you said it. Worshiping idols is a blaspheming issue. That's why I don't do it.
BTW, I'm not a protestant. I'm non-denominational. I haven't found the right church yet. That's why I inquired about yours. You haven't convinced me. What makes you think I'm a protestant? Or is everyone who doesn't follow your church a Protestant in your eyes?
Why are the responses I provided not sufficient to you tho? If you could please re-read them, maybe I'd be able to add more?
Okay. let's start again. I sometimes use sarcasm as a tool for debate. I apologize if it comes across as harsh.
I'm here to find answers. If I criticize it is because you haven't convinced me. I sincerely believe that we should not pray to anyone other than Christ. If I'm wrong about that then I'm wrong. I'm here to find out the truth.
I'll pose these questions carefully:
Are children supposed to give a "worship of respect" to their parents? Are citizens supposed to give a "worship of respect" to political leaders? The point is, is there any grounds in Scripture for giving a "worship of respect" to any man?
By what Scripture is it proclaimed that we who go to Heaven are praying for those still on Earth? By what Scripture is it proclaimed that people in Heaven can even hear us?
Is it actually proclaimed that people in Heaven are protecting us? By what Scripture is it proclaimed that we look to any man or woman for intercession rather than directly to Jesus?
Those are my first concerns.
Secondly, I am aware that demons can pose as the dead (by dead, I mean dead in the flesh. I'm not going to get into another debate about whether they sleep or not or are 'alive' in paradise). This concerns me too. I don't want to think that praying to saints is harmful, but I suspect that it might be. I'm am a bit worried about this. It sounds a little bit demonic to me. Once again, I'm not saying that it is.... but you can probably see why I might think this.
I have no problem with anything else that your church does. It seems scripturally sound, but this 'apparent' idolatry is a major barrier.
Finally, why is this intercession thing so important anyway? Why not just pray directly to Christ through the holy spirit? Why the need for all this 'saint' business? Are you saying that we are not good enough to pray to Christ ourselves? It seems a bit messy and distracting, and dare I say it..... almost polytheistic.
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=14587.msg165743#msg165743 date=1377284896]
Are you kidding me? Speaking to protestants makes me thank God I'm Orthodox lol.
I wont respond because your responses already throw away your position. BTW, you say this is not a salvation issue, yet you say I worship idols. Idol worshiping is a salvation issue my blaspheming friend :D
Ok, you said it. Worshiping idols is a blaspheming issue. That's why I don't do it.
BTW, I'm not a protestant. I'm non-denominational. I haven't found the right church yet. That's why I inquired about yours. You haven't convinced me. What makes you think I'm a protestant? Or is everyone who doesn't follow your church a Protestant in your eyes?
I don't do it either. Non-denominational means you are in protest to the true Christian faith. Therefore, a protestant. Orthodoxy is the right church. You have found it, but you are too juvenile to understand and accept the philosophical, biblical, and patristic arguments for it. Your blasphemous perception of scripture and philosophy identify you as such.
Anyone who does not follow the apostolic faith is protestant, yes. They are in protest to the truth.
[quote author=Truthseeker link=topic=14587.msg165744#msg165744 date=1377287679]
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=14587.msg165743#msg165743 date=1377284896]
Are you kidding me? Speaking to protestants makes me thank God I'm Orthodox lol.
I wont respond because your responses already throw away your position. BTW, you say this is not a salvation issue, yet you say I worship idols. Idol worshiping is a salvation issue my blaspheming friend :D
Ok, you said it. Worshiping idols is a blaspheming issue. That's why I don't do it.
BTW, I'm not a protestant. I'm non-denominational. I haven't found the right church yet. That's why I inquired about yours. You haven't convinced me. What makes you think I'm a protestant? Or is everyone who doesn't follow your church a Protestant in your eyes?
I don't do it either. Non-denominational means you are in protest to the true Christian faith. Therefore, a protestant. Orthodoxy is the right church. You have found it, but you are too juvenile to understand and accept the philosophical, biblical, and patristic arguments for it. Your blasphemous perception of scripture and philosophy identify you as such.
Anyone who does not follow the apostolic faith is protestant, yes. They are in protest to the truth.
I've said nothing blasphemous. Pointing out Deuteronomy 18 is not blasphemous. Stating that I do not agree with idol-worshiping is not blasphemous. Admittedly, I did say that this was not a salvation issue but then you did remind me that idol-worshipping was blasphemous, so I quite rightly corrected myself and agreed with you. Believing that you should only pray to Jesus is not blasphemous. 1st Timothy 2:5 makes it absolutely clear that there is one mediator between man and God and that is Jesus Christ. Do you understand the meaning of the word 'ONE' and the word 'MEDIATOR'?
You say that I am in protest to the truth but you can't even accept what scripture says. Are you disagreeing with scripture or are you going to come out with this 'out of context' thing and 'not understanding the culture' rubbish?
Yet according to you I am too juvenile to understand and I have a blasphemous perception. I was also accused of being cowardly early on in the thread.
Insults are the final words of somebody who has lost the argument, and you my friend have clearly lost the argument but you just can't accept it, but if you wish to carry on disagreeing with the Holy Bible then you are free to do so.
What is your definition of prayer? because prayer to me is when I entreat God and offer supplication to Him, it is a time where I ask for the forgiveness of my sins and ultimately my salvation, and it is a time that I also ask for help against temptations or other worldly matter.
Yet I have never "prayed" to a saint because ultimately they were flesh and blood. We believe that "Christ's Divinity never departed from His humanity not for a single second or a twinkle of an eye" So I cannot fathom why you would say we pray to saints when they are only flesh and blood.
We do however ask for the intercessions of these saints because these saints have found favor in the Lord's sight whether they have been martyred for his Sake, gave up this vain world to live with Him in seclusion (monks) or where Chosen by Him such as the Blessed Saint Mary who was chosen as the bearer of the Saviour of the World. It is because there great love for Christ that we ask them to entreat with us to God so that he may Have mercy on us and save us from this vain world. We do this because we believe that they are there with Christ and can plead with Him to have mercy on us for their sakes. This can be likened to when in the OT Abraham interceded with God to save Lot it was for Abraham's SAKE that God had spared his Nephew when he was going to destroy Sodom and Gomorah and EVERYONE IN IT. Similarly when Christ turned the water into Wine at the Wedding of Canaan it was because St. Mary interceded and he replied her saying " Woman, what does this have to do with me? My hour has not yet come" Yet because she asked him as his mother He performed this miracle.
Now my friend I ask what gives any of us the right to ask God for anything we are sinners, unworthy of anything why should He listen to us. Do you think that you can just go and speak for example to the Queen of England now or whenever? Yet if you had a mediator or someone who is of Royal blood set up a meeting then you may have access to the Queen. So it make no sense why God should listen to us but He does because we are adopted in His family. Now if I have found no favor in Christ because I'm a sinner I look unto those who have found favor in his sight (such as St.Mary) and have experienced the sins of the world and have triumphed through Christ and are now LIVING with Him in paradise to intercede for me.
My friend whether you are happy with my thoughts and my logic concerns me not in the end of the day whether you believe someone is a saint or not has nothing to do with salvation. Worshiping and offering prayers to idols is blasphemous, asking, on the other hand for intercession of those who have found favor in the sight of God is not. We Pray, we serve and we Worship God and only HIM.
May God shed his light of truth upon you and open your mind, eye's and understanding to discover the Truth.
I admire you zeal to seek the truth and learn about Orthodoxy. By your questions you have shown you are a free thinker and indeed a truth seeker.
Allow me to offer my two cents. People often boil down the difference between any two ideologies into bumper-sticker slogans that can be understand by the simple in mind. But since I believe you are capable of deeper thinking let us do away with such simple ways.
What do I mean by watered-down bumper sticker slogans? Well let me give you some examples: when pointing out to the differences between Orthodoxy and Protestantism one can list the following points:
1. We don’t worship St. Mary and other saints but they do.
2. We don’t worship idols but they have icons
3. We don’t baptize infants but they do
4. We don’t have bishops and priests but they do
The list goes on.
Now all of the above points are good observations, although not always accurate. But like I said they are simplistic.
The next step of such simplistic view is going to Bible and trying to find verses that will support one’s point of view. Let me point out to you that the Bible was not Canonized until the fourth century. What did the Christians for the first three hundred years believed in?
Orthodoxy is a faith that tries to bring us back to the First Century Church. We have deep faith in the Bible and our Lord Jesus Christ.
It is my humble suggestion that you will benefit more if we discuss about the sources of teaching of the Orthodox Church and how She interprets the Bible instead of discussing about icons and Saints. After all the difference between Orthodoxy and Protestantism is not a difference on a few points but a difference in perspective.
Your brother in Christ
Theophilus
Dear Truthseeker,
I admire you zeal to seek the truth and learn about Orthodoxy. By your questions you have shown you are a free thinker and indeed a truth seeker.
Allow me to offer my two cents. People often boil down the difference between any two ideologies into bumper-sticker slogans that can be understand by the simple in mind. But since I believe you are capable of deeper thinking let us do away with such simple ways.
What do I mean by watered-down bumper sticker slogans? Well let me give you some examples: when pointing out to the differences between Orthodoxy and Protestantism one can list the following points:
1. We don’t worship St. Mary and other saints but they do.
2. We don’t worship idols but they have icons
3. We don’t baptize infants but they do
4. We don’t have bishops and priests but they do
The list goes on.
Now all of the above points are good observations, although not always accurate. But like I said they are simplistic.
The next step of such simplistic view is going to Bible and trying to find verses that will support one’s point of view. Let me point out to you that the Bible was not Canonized until the fourth century. What did the Christians for the first three hundred years believed in?
Orthodoxy is a faith that tries to bring us back to the First Century Church. We have deep faith in the Bible and our Lord Jesus Christ.
It is my humble suggestion that you will benefit more if we discuss about the sources of teaching of the Orthodox Church and how She interprets the Bible instead of discussing about icons and Saints. After all the difference between Orthodoxy and Protestantism is not a difference on a few points but a difference in perspective.
Your brother in Christ
Theophilus
Let me point out that despite my apparent rudeness:
(if I am attacked verbally, I will attack back, but I still have brotherly love for you all. I'm not offended at all by what anyone has said about me or called me (juvenile, cowardly, blasphemous). It's quite amusing actually, but I will give as good as I get. Maybe I enjoy a good argument. I hope feelings are not hurt despite the apparent viciousness - please enjoy the debate):
1/ I greatly admire Orthodox churches. I believe that anyone who believes that Jesus (Son of God and God in the flesh) died on the cross and was resurrected for our sins, and who truly tries to live in the Holy Spirit is saved, regardless of denomination or non-denomination.
2/ I am not trying to persuade any Orthodox member or non-Orthodox member to abandon their church and convert to anything else, nor to strike doubt in their heads, nor to bring discord on this forum. Nor am I trying to mock your liturgy or principles but I want to criticise them in order to find out the truth from you.
3/ Your 'apparent' worship of Saints or praying to them, I believe contravenes a couple of points in scripture that I have mentioned earlier, but I don't believe that it is a salvation issue (if it is genuine idolatry then yes it is) and from what you have said, it does not sound like idolatry but a misunderstanding of scripture.
4/ I have come here to discover what you believe in from the 'horse's mouth', so to speak, and not from second or third hand sources.
5/ The 4 points that you listed above are what some protestants believe but not all. I don't have a problem with icons but the praying to saints thing sounds very heretic to me. I can understand why you may do it. There are some points in the Bible that may lead you to claim that it is okay to do so (and you may be right and I wrong), but it really does concern me.
6/ I am aware of the books of the Bible and that they were not compiled as we know them today (as you have already said) until centuries after the resurrection of Christ. I understand that this issue has been a head-scratcher for both Christians and historians for many years.
7/ By the way, I am not a protestant but I don't mind if you call me that, if that's how you see me.
Remember, that a protestant needs something to protest against in the first place. I can't protest against Orthodoxy if it has never affected my life in any way. 'Criticism of' is not the same as 'protesting against'.
You have suggested that I learn more about Orthodoxy from first principles and I agree that I should. I will save the 'praying to saints' bit quandary for another day, but until I understand it better, it will always be an obstacle to me in my full appreciation of your Church.
-=Peace of Christ=-
Truthseeker - Listen friend. In the old testament it was forbidden to talk with the dead because they were truly dead, they were in Shoel (Hades) they were disconnected from life (which is God), thus they cannot hear you. However, in the New Testament Christ went to Hades through the Cross and rescued Adam and the just and took them to paradise, along with the thief on the cross. This is why the Church calls them Saints. The Saints are in the presence of God and are the cloud of witnesses spoken by John in revelations. When we ask of their intercessions we are standing with them in front of Gods throne. They along with us make up the Church (the Body of Christ) they are the heavenly Church while we are the Earthly suffering Church.
Regarding Icons, they are a window to Heaven, all the Saints lead to Christ. All the Saints point to Christ. In the Copitc Church we write Icons and any saint is depicted large in comparison to their surrounding. This emphasizes that they have defeated the world just like Christ did.
The protestants are not wrong because they don't use Icons they are wrong because they interpret the Bible without the Church fathers. The Bible is not to be interpreted literally but through the Church fathers and the Apostles. That is what being Orthodox is all about. It is about having the Correct Faith handed down to us through the fathers by the Church. We do not make up our faith based on what is popular or what the bible says in our understanding.
Glory be to God forever, Amen.
Hi everyone this is my first post.
I'm very interested in both Eastern and Oriental orthodoxy, but I am confused about your use of icons. I searched your forum to see if this has been asked before but I couldn't find what I was looking for? Excuse me if I have missed it.
My questions are:
How do you justify the use of icons. In other words what are they for?
Are icons not in breach of the Ten Commandments (specifically Exodus 20:4-5)?
Why do you venerate saints and images of saints and why have saints at all? Surely only God has the right to decide who a saint is, as all men are sinners.
Do you feel that Protestant churches are false churches because they have more or less rejected iconry? Surely they are simply doing what they think is right by eliminating idolatry.
Thanks in advance for your replies.
Hello Truthseeker,
allow me to take a stab at answering your questions.
1. To answer your first question, I would like to use the analogy of a house carrying pictures of its family members (wife, husband, children, etc). The same idea can be applied to our church. Since we consider the saints as part of a family (considering that we are one body in Christ) and the fact that we often call the church the "house of angels and saints," we like to keep a memory of those who have sacrificed so much for Christ and use them as an example for us. Saints like Moses the strong (not the old testament one) went from being a criminal to living a life completely dedicated to God (through the grace of God)--this is something that can encourage others!
on another note, I would like to point out that icons are not just pictures of saints, but also include the "writings" of Christ's life on earth. I say "writing" because icons are not referred to as something that is drawn but written (this is mainly because people centuries ago were illiterate and the church would explain the stories of Christ through the use of icons instead of books--in this sense they were "written.") There is a lot of theology behind icons and I encourage you to look up books on the beauty and theology of Coptic icons and if you want I can refer some to you.
2. Concerning your second question: it needs to be taken in context. God is asking his faithful not to bow down nor worship any other foreign gods. We, as orthodox Christians, do not worship saints nor do we bow down to them. Second of all, icons are not carved images but are "written" stories.
3. We venerate saints because it is what Christ intended for us to do. This can be referenced in Matthew 26:13 which states: 13 Assuredly, I say to you, wherever this gospel is preached in the whole world, what this woman has done will also be told as a memorial to her.” Clearly, we can see that Christ intended for us to remember those who have pleased Him. Another important note is that by praising the saints, we are also glorifying God Himself (let me explain). Imagine if I told your mother that she raised such a great son, how do you think she would feel? Is this not a compliment and praise to her? Thus we are fulfilling Psalm 150 which states to "praise God in all his saints." Also, the idea of intercession is not something foreign in the bible, consider the following verses:
1 Timothy 2:1
"First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,.."
Ephesians 6:18
"Praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints,..."
Revelation 8:3
"And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne,..."
And there are many many more...
4. We do not think that Protestant churches are "less churches" because of the lack of iconry. Instead, it is because they disregard the sacraments of the church such as the Eucharist, Repentance/confession, priesthood, and several others.
On a side note:
Our church believes that the saints are now in paradise (not to be confused with heaven) which is considered to be the waiting place for those who will be with the Lord. Since we believe in the God of the living and the dead, we still consider these saints to be interceding for us and praying on our behalf, thus uniting the struggling church with the victorious church.
I hope this helped!
[quote author=Truthseeker link=topic=14587.msg165746#msg165746 date=1377289254]
Are children supposed to give a "worship of respect" to their parents?
Yes. Exodus 20:12. What you call "worship of respect", we call honor. It's not a pejorative practice but a truly holy practice because it mirrors the interrelationship of the Trinity. We don't worship our parents as gods who can bring salvation but we honor them as an image of the Trinity. Yes. 1 Peter 2:13-17. Look at verse 17: "Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king." Of course, you can replace the work "king" with "political leaders". Verse 17 again. "Honor all people." Revelation 5:8. Luke 16:19-31. Are you saying that when one goes to heaven, one ignores those who struggle on earth, gloating that he made it to heaven and caring not about his brothers alive on earth? Such an attitude is the antithesis of God's salvation. Revelation 5:8. The entire conversation with the rich man, Lazarus and Abraham occurred when they were all dead. But they are not dead. More to come. They are not necessarily protecting us. They are interceeding to God on our behalf. This doesn't mean we automatically have a miraculous happy ending. We will continue to suffer on earth but those who have kept the faith and died for the truth, are precious in the sight of God (Psalm 116:15) and they care for us and persuade God to show his mercy. John 2:2. Job 42:10. James 5:14. Genesis 18:23-33. I can keep going. It's not that we can't pray to Jesus directly, nor we are praying to saints instead of Jesus. It is using a saint to pray with us and for us to Jesus. From the verses referenced here, one can see that God does have special relationships with some saints. God actually instructed people to go to the saints for help in Job. You want to get into a debate about intercessions yet you don't allow any discussion about the posthumous status of saints (alive vs. dead). Our faith in intercessions is explicitly intertwined with our understanding of the Resurrection of the dead. They are not separate. It is precisely our faith in the Resurrection that intercessions of the saints makes sense and is valid. It is only demonic if you're talking to the dead like a seance. But we are not praying or talking to the dead. We are talking to those alive in the Resurrection. Isaiah 5:20. Woe to those who call evil acts like calling on demons good or Orthodox and good acts like intercessions evil or idolatry. I understand you are inquiring about Orthodoxy. But it is offensive to call Orthodox practice as idolatry (even apparent idolatry) on an Orthodox site. Intercessions is completely Orthodox and completely scriptural. Please refrain from offensive terms even if you are provoked. Coming with such a priori attitude is the problem to begin with. This "saint business" is vitally important because that is how Christ wanted it. Did not Christ choose disciples and apostles to preach and teach us how to pray? If one can simply pray to Christ alone without the Church and Orthodoxy, then the entire Gospel is a lie.
I do enjoy a debate. All that is required is to keep intellectual honesty and complete Christian respect. I will be awaiting your responses.