Orthodoxy does not teach idolatry but perhaps there are idolators in the church who worship and serve the creature rather than the creator. One must also speak to Christ and know that from Him alone can He receive anything good even though it is because of the saints desires which are like His own desires. Saints pray for us just like people on earth pray for others. As people's prayers are effective so are the saints but the saint even more as he knows your condition better and he need not be a stranger as humans are to others
James 1:17 New King James Version (NKJV) 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.
18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not[a] seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.
to form a saint into your own image is idolatry. If any of a saints teachings go against Christ then you are worshipping a saint
I can't find an example where a saint has said anything bad but if he teaches to show contempt towards some humans or to regard some people as lesser people and wanting to keep them as such that is not Christ and you are choosing a man whom you call a saint instead of God
Christ said whoever wants to be great let him be a servant and whoever exalts himself will be humbled
You say Christ chose apostles to teach us and to pray for us.... Yes but they were alive at the time............................................ I'm talking about talking to the dead - which is forbidden.
Why don't you answer my question?
Where in the Bible does it say that you can contact the dead?
Stop throwing random scripture at me as if I don't know it. Stop talking about intercession. I'm aware of this too. Intercession is getting others to pray on your behalf (living people).
Do not judge me. I do not want to hold on to my opinion otherwise I would not be here. I want you to convince me that you are right but you fail to answer my question. Why do you talk to the dead when it is forbidden? Why can't you give me scripture that says that it is ok for you to do this. If you do I will believe you, but you don't - you just point the finger! I would like to think that you are right but all you can do with your arrogance is point the finger at me and accuse me of having a hellish view of scripture.You know nothing of my other views of scripture, so how can you say that I have a Hellish view. What else have I told you that I believe in? Remove the plank from your own eye before you tell me what my views are!
Sounds to me like someone is messing about with semantics here. Dead means 'dead in the flesh'. Just because these people are technically alive in spirit does not mean that they are not dead in the flesh. God makes it clear that we are not to disturb the dead. Deut 8 (If they were dead in spirit we would not be able to contact them anyway, so making the excuse that they are not really dead is no excuse). So when God says do not disturb the dead then he means do not contact those who are dead in the flesh. He never meant, "Oh, you can't contact the dead, but you CAN contact them because they're not really dead anyway!" Your argument is illogical, yet you dare to call me thick as a brick!
I really wanted to join your church, but your arrogance is constantly putting me off. You accuse me of worshipping idols. Earlier on, I specifically told you that you ONLY pray to Jesus Christ, so how can I be worshipping idols? What a pathetically irrational statement for you to make. You claim that I lack logic....... :'(
I am no expert on biblical translations and interpretations, however from different sources (not sure of the reliability), I was told the King James version/New King James Version are the most likely one of the most accurate.
NKJV: 9 “When you come into the land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. 10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you. 13 You shall be blameless before the Lord your God. 14 For these nations which you will dispossess listened to soothsayers and diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not appointed such for you.
Here it says calls up the dead. In other words literally raising the dead? I can be completely wrong and hence why I am not emphasizing this point. I am saying that our inability to come to a common understanding may be due to a matter of translation because I definitely do not consider myself to ever talk to someone dead or waking someone up from the dead. To me, I am speaking to a live Spirit.
Let me bring this point up. Because clearly our understanding of this verse is different and to me it sounds your reasoning is inconsistent. Earlier you said we should not talk to a person who died in the flesh:
[quote author=Truthseeker link=topic=14587.msg165926#msg165926 date=1379083192] Sounds to me like someone is messing about with semantics here. Dead means 'dead in the flesh'. Just because these people are technically alive in spirit does not mean that they are not dead in the flesh. God makes it clear that we are not to disturb the dead. Deut 8 (If they were dead in spirit we would not be able to contact them anyway, so making the excuse that they are not really dead is no excuse). So when God says do not disturb the dead then he means do not contact those who are dead in the flesh. He never meant, "Oh, you can't contact the dead, but you CAN contact them because they're not really dead anyway!" Your argument is illogical, yet you dare to call me thick as a brick!
I really wanted to join your church, but your arrogance is constantly putting me off. You accuse me of worshipping idols. Earlier on, I specifically told you that you ONLY pray to Jesus Christ, so how can I be worshipping idols? What a pathetically irrational statement for you to make. You claim that I lack logic....... :'(
If this is your understanding, Christ died in the flesh? There would be a lack of consistency in scripture if truly this is what the verse meant. Cause in all evidence we, not only speak to Christ, we MUST speak to Him.
Theres a few point I want to re-iterate to simply be sure you understand our position.
- Saint are alive in Spirit and thus not dead.
- We do not worship idols. We worship/respect a spirit that is alive. (You can view Reminiki's post for that) we worship the Holy Spirit that filled their hearts and made them 'the light of world'.
- We worship and pray to and only to God. Only He can redeem us and gives us our promised salvation. We only ask those who are close to His heart (those alive in Spirit and gained the joy of Paradise) to ask on our behalf for our request. Exactly like Saint Mary did when she pleaded with Christ at the wedding of Cana. Those that are with the Lord can help us ask from the Lord for our Salvation :
3 And when they ran out of wine, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.”
4 Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come.”
5 His mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it.”
I am no longer accusing you of worshipping idols, that was cleared up in previous posts. My question is about contacting the dead. Anyway, you make a good point here:
Quote:If this is your understanding, Christ died in the flesh? There would be a lack of consistency in scripture if truly this is what the verse meant. Cause in all evidence we, not only speak to Christ, we MUST speak to Him.
Christ is God in the flesh. Do you not think that he is an exception? He is no ordinary man.He is the only one who died and was resurrected. Just because we speak to him, does not grant us the same license to speak to others who also died. I may be wrong here, but that is my understanding.
Now, I'm not accusing you of worshipping the dead. I am merely accusing you of contacting them. I agree in intercession. When we ask other living people to pray for us, that is intercession. When the Apostles spread their message, they were doing Christ's work, but they were alive in the flesh at the time. Their writings and teachings discontinued when they died. Paul wrote no letters after he had died. There is no evidence that he communicated with us after he died, so why, for example, should we try to communicate with him? I see nothing in the scriptures provided in this thread that gives us permission to speak to anyone who has passed over to the other side, no matter whether we are asking them to pray for us, to watch over us, or to make us a cup of tea. I only read that we are meant to pray to Jesus Christ. Communication with any others who have died is forbidden. If I missed the bit of scripture that says we can contact those who have passed to the other side then please tell me what it is.
Jesus speaking to Elijah, for example, does not count. Jesus has authority to do things which we cannot. If Jesus wished to contact the spirits of those who are dead, then that was his right to do so. I thought I would point this out before you throw more irrelevant examples at me.
So far you have accused me of blasphemy, yet I have said nothing blasphemous, you say that I have a memory of a goldfish, you have accused me of idolatry. You have come across as incredibly nasty and judgemental. You remind me of the pharisees who were so full of hatred. Why do you behave in such a way? If a question is asked, why not answer it? You have answered many questions but not the one that I have asked. I do read your posts but discard most of them because they have not answered my question. If you can't answer the question, then fine, don't answer it. At least admit that you can't. Quoting Isahiah 5:20 doesn't work either. I know that you are not supposed to call good evil or evil good. I am not calling good evil or evil good. I am merely asking you why you think it is okay to speak to the dead, when it is supposed to be forbidden. Hiding behind scripture does not defend your cause. I could equally throw Isaiah 5:20 at yourselves, if I so wished, but I choose not to idly throw scripture at you, especially when it is irrelevant to the conversation. In fact anybody can throw scripture at anyone. It makes them appear clever and knowledgeable. If you're going to quote scripture, please make sure that it is relevant. Please don't accuse me of coming with a prior attitude. I am an open book, but I can read and I can speak to the holy spirit the same as anyone else. You do not have a monopoly over God. I believe in testing the spirits and I believe in testing the churches too. It is only me speaking with all of you who post here. I am on my own, but you sure do like to gang up and spew your venom. Safety in numbers, is it? Are you incapable of defending your church without spewing venom. The best way to defend your church is with the truth and if you can't truthfully deal with one question...........................
You are not to convert because of people but because of scripture and truth. Search any other place honestly and ask yourself do they really have more truth than orthodoxy? I am afraid all the churches are in error but perhaps orthodoxy is true for it also does not condemn protestants it seems to eternal hell unless they are lying to me now and even if they did perhaps they think orthodoxy has been preached to all and all are rejecting orthodoxy willfully when they know it is absolute truth
We do not contact the dead. We simply ask them to pray for us. We do not pray to them or ask them to do anything for us. God is the one who helps us and He sets His ministers (saints) and angels over us to guide us (see psalm 103:20-21)
About the angels "are they not ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation"
We also learn that Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus on the Holy Mount to strengthen Him to do His will. We are fellow citizens with the saint according to the below verse. That means we can talk to them. They pray for us according to God's will. And they rejoice in our turning to God. God lets the saints help us that we might also love the saints and try to be like them. God loves us Himself but He will glorify His saints that we may seek to be like them and that he who receives a righteous man receives a righteous mans reward. God told Jobs friends to ask Job to pray for them so that His wrath may not be on them. Because if one thought evil to a saint he must bow to him to deserve forgiveness and by loving him God will bless him and the relationship to the saint is significant because one learns why God loved the saint and only by growing closer to the saint can one know how short he is before God. So we read the stories of saints and we try to ask God to reveal to us more of their life and so we bless the saint. That is the meaning of the relationship to the saints not to pray to them as a replacement to God because God does not help us
Matthew 10:41-42 And he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward. 42 And whoever gives one of these little ones only a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple, assuredly, I say to you, he shall by no means lose his reward.”
When we pray to Him He sends us His saints. And so we might as well thank them. But we can pray to God Himself
So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God Ephesians 2:19
Why do we need saints if we have Christ? because it is easy to connect with someone who we once knew and we let them have a part in our salvation that both he who reaps and he who sows may rejoice together
Just as Jesus commanded us to remember Him so we should remember the saints who were before us
Hebrews 13:7 Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct.
we ask God to help us attain their virtues
So saint paul also said that things to come belong to us now
1 Corinthians 3:22-23
22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas, or the world or life or death, or things present or things to come—all are yours. 23 And you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.
I am going to go to reply to each of your points. I will put my points in italics
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=14587.msg165929#msg165929 date=1379090695] You are not to convert because of people but because of scripture and truth. Search any other place honestly and ask yourself do they really have more truth than orthodoxy? I am afraid all the churches are in error but perhaps orthodoxy is true for it also does not condemn protestants it seems to eternal hell unless they are lying to me now
Thank you for that. I condemn no one either, Protestant, Catholic or Orthodox. I don't think that many churches do have more truth than Orthodoxy, to be honest with you, which is why I have found myself attracted to Orthodoxy in the first place. I think that Orthodoxy is very close to spiritual truth. My only gripe with Orthodoxy is this subject that we are talking about now.
We do not contact the dead. We simply ask them to pray for us. We do not pray for them or ask them to do anything for us. God is the one who helps us and He sets His ministers (saints) and angels over us to guide us (see psalm 103:20-21)
Why is not contacting the same as asking to pray? If you are asking somebody something then you are contacting them. That's like saying, "I don't speak to people, I only talk to them." Maybe, I'm confused here as to what you mean by the word contact.
About the angels "are they not ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation"
We also learn that Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus on the Holy Mount to strengthen Him to do His will. We are fellow citizens with the saint according to the below verse. That means we can talk to them. They pray for us according to God's will. And they rejoice in our turning to God
So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God Ephesians 2:19
I can understand where you are coming from here, but being fellow citizens with the Saints, somehow does not imply that we can speak to them when they are dead. Besides, what does the word saint mean to you? What is a saint? Orthodoxy has defined a saint as being someone who has died and canonised as such, but I've never found anywhere in the Bible that suggests this. Of course, I could be wrong. My interpretation of the Bible defines a saint as a believer, any believer. I have to admit that I am unsure about this. I have meticulously read verses that refer to saints, and cannot work out where Orthodoxy believed that Saints had another definition. I would also point out that I believe that my late mother is also a citizen, but I have never believed that I have permission to communicate with her whilst I am still alive and she is on the other side.
Why do we need saints if we have Christ? because it is easy to connect with someone who we once knew and we let them have a part in our salvation that both he who reaps and he who sows may rejoice together
Again, I can find no scriptural evidence of this. We can learn from others wiser than ourselves and we can ask advice from others wiser than ourselves. We can remember those who have died and learn from their lives and what they may have told us when they were alive or what they wrote. We can honour their memory, but when they pass on they have other duties to fulfill in heaven. I was not aware that we are allowed to disturb them.
Just as Jesus commanded us to remember Him so we should remember the saints who were before us
As above
Hebrews 13:7 Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct.
we ask God to help us attain their virtues
Again as above
So saint paul also said that things to come belong to us now
1 Corinthians 3:22-23
22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas, or the world or life or death, or things present or things to come—all are yours. 23 And you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.
Simply confirming that we are all as one. That we are all saved. We all belong to Christ. I don't think it infers in any way that we contact our brothers and sisters who have passed on
I added more explanation I am not very deep in my faith myself but I use scripture myself and then find it agrees with what the church says I am too busy to reply to you now hopefully someone else will.
But what duties do you think they have in heaven? all their duty is towards us heaven is not eating and drinking but is the practicing of the fruit of the spirit which is love and service to all
Some quotes I used are my own interpretations that could be saying that but not all see how deep a scripture is that last verse I posted should not be used if I want to prove I would not use that for absolute proof but to make one look at other scripture to understand what he means exactly. I may doubt the scripture but that last verse may be pretty clear what it is saying but there may be other better ones. Scripture seems to have alot of meaning and is not always literal.
For example John says "and noone receives his testimony" but is that true? for some do. But the majority do not. Also the word all may not necessarily mean all so one can get different conclusions from all scripture but one who studies all of scripture will know the truth and the truth will set him free
St Paul said to Timothy
2 Timothy 2:15 New King James Version (NKJV) 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
So the best people to teach are those who give their lives to studying the bible and those who claim to descend from the apostles should be given serious attention but not all are trustworthy some are hirelings who do not care about the sheep when they are in trouble but care only to please the world they say apostolic succession is historical but I did not accept Jesus because of history I do not trust history books but because of the harmony of scripture and fulfilled prophesies that I came to understand
But noone can come to Jesus unless the Father who sent Him draws Him and orthodox would say that applies to joining the church also for Jesus did say that when He was making the sacrament of Holy Communion. But how relevant is that to today? would God turn away someone who wants to follow Him and is a christian? you would need to read the scripture for that for Jesus said He will turn away noone who comes to Him. He turns away those who do not desire the full truth I think and they know the truth but they hate it in the parable of the hired workers those in the eleventh hour were shown compassion whom noone evangelised to them and show them the truth which they would have obeyed if it was convincing. But they would have been more useful to the kingdom if they had come earlier perhaps assuming they could and it may refer to those who always sought the truth but noone would show them it. God will either accept them or He will send them someone to show them the truth for they seek to fully do the Fathers will and be spiritually alive. We believe the Holy Communion gives spiritual life but the orthodox say they do not condemn all protestants to hell if they did say that I would ask where is their evangelism? why did they let me leave orthodoxy? I would be as lost as protestants. Noone deserves to be judged but he who rejects what he knows is true. Maybe they are doing all they can and I do not see it
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=14587.msg165932#msg165932 date=1379093434] I added more explanation I am not very deep in my faith myself but I use scripture myself and then find it agrees with what the church says I am too busy to reply to you now hopefully someone else will.
But what duties do you think they have in heaven? all their duty is towards us heaven is not eating and drinking but is the practicing of the fruit of the spirit which is love and service to all
Some quotes I used are my own interpretations that could be saying that but not all see how deep a scripture is that last verse I posted should not be used if I want to prove I would not use that for absolute proof but to make one look at other scripture to understand what he means exactly. I may doubt the scripture but that last verse may be pretty clear what it is saying but there may be other better ones. Scripture seems to have alot of meaning and is not always literal.
For example John says "and noone receives his testimony" but is that true? for some do. But the majority do not. Also the word all may not necessarily mean all so one can get different conclusions from all scripture but one who studies all of scripture will know the truth and the truth will set him free
St Paul said to Timothy
2 Timothy 2:15 New King James Version (NKJV) 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
So the best people to teach are those who give their lives to studying the bible and those who claim to descend from the apostles should be given serious attention but not all are trustworthy some are hirelings who do not care about the sheep when they are in trouble but care only to please the world they say apostolic succession is historical but I did not accept Jesus because of history I do not trust history books but because of the harmony of scripture and fulfilled prophesies that I came to understand
But noone can come to Jesus unless the Father who sent Him draws Him and orthodox would say that applies to joining the church also for Jesus did say that when He was making the sacrament of Holy Communion. But how relevant is that to today? would God turn away someone who wants to follow Him and is a christian? you would need to read the scripture for that for Jesus said He will turn away noone who comes to Him. He turns away those who do not desire the full truth I think and they know the truth but they hate it
[quote author=Truthseeker link=topic=14587.msg165928#msg165928 date=1379088401] I am no longer accusing you of worshipping idols, that was cleared up in previous posts. My question is about contacting the dead.
Understood.
Anyway, you make a good point here:
Quote:If this is your understanding, Christ died in the flesh? There would be a lack of consistency in scripture if truly this is what the verse meant. Cause in all evidence we, not only speak to Christ, we MUST speak to Him.
Christ is God in the flesh. Do you not think that he is an exception? He is no ordinary man.He is the only one who died and was resurrected. Just because we speak to him, does not grant us the same license to speak to others who also died. I may be wrong here, but that is my understanding.
Honestly, I will not elaborate too much on that point because my tendency would be to disagree that Christ is an exception. I need to study a few things before confirming this as true, but my understanding is that Christ came on earth to set an example. "Be holy for I am holy". In the end, we should do anything He was able to do. Because now I have the name of the Lord. Just like St. Paul told the beggar “Silver and gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk.” In any case, I wont elaborate too much on that. It could be another interesting discussion for our edification.
Now, I'm not accusing you of worshipping the dead. I am merely accusing you of contacting them. I agree in intercession. When we ask other living people to pray for us, that is intercession. When the Apostles spread their message, they were doing Christ's work, but they were alive in the flesh at the time. Their writings and teachings discontinued when they died. Paul wrote no letters after he had died. There is no evidence that he communicated with us after he died, so why, for example, should we try to communicate with him?
Understood. I am glad we are getting certain details cleared up. I will elaborate shortly.
I see nothing in the scriptures provided in this thread that gives us permission to speak to anyone who has passed over to the other side, no matter whether we are asking them to pray for us, to watch over us, or to make us a cup of tea. I only read that we are meant to pray to Jesus Christ. Communication with any others who have died is forbidden. If I missed the bit of scripture that says we can contact those who have passed to the other side then please tell me what it is.
Jesus speaking to Elijah, for example, does not count. Jesus has authority to do things which we cannot. If Jesus wished to contact the spirits of those who are dead, then that was his right to do so. I thought I would point this out before you throw more irrelevant examples at me.
Again similar point to earlier, can we really claim that Jesus in the flesh did things we could not in the flesh? As I said, I am actually unsure of my position, I am simply thinking out loud (or in writing hehe), but what would be the point of the incarnation - if we wasn't 100% human like we were? Anyways, this could actually make a whole new complicated discussion, and we should probably stay focused on the point itself so not to go on tagents. All this to say, potentially lets both of us not use that argument since we are not on a common ground with it.
So far you have accused me of blasphemy, yet I have said nothing blasphemous, you say that I have a memory of a goldfish, you have accused me of idolatry. You have come across as incredibly nasty and judgemental. You remind me of the pharisees who were so full of hatred. Why do you behave in such a way? If a question is asked, why not answer it? You have answered many questions but not the one that I have asked. I do read your posts but discard most of them because they have not answered my question. If you can't answer the question, then fine, don't answer it. At least admit that you can't. Quoting Isahiah 5:20 doesn't work either. I know that you are not supposed to call good evil or evil good. I am not calling good evil or evil good. I am merely asking you why you think it is okay to speak to the dead, when it is supposed to be forbidden. Hiding behind scripture does not defend your cause. I could equally throw Isaiah 5:20 at yourselves, if I so wished, but I choose not to idly throw scripture at you, especially when it is irrelevant to the conversation. In fact anybody can throw scripture at anyone. It makes them appear clever and knowledgeable. If you're going to quote scripture, please make sure that it is relevant. Please don't accuse me of coming with a prior attitude. I am an open book, but I can read and I can speak to the holy spirit the same as anyone else. You do not have a monopoly over God. I believe in testing the spirits and I believe in testing the churches too. It is only me speaking with all of you who post here. I am on my own, but you sure do like to gang up and spew your venom. Safety in numbers, is it? Are you incapable of defending your church without spewing venom. The best way to defend your church is with the truth and if you can't truthfully deal with one question...........................
I have done none of these. If I feel attacked or the discussion leading to both of us hard headed, I simply refrain from replying. You may be here to learn, to disturb or whatever you like. I am in no position to judge. I love my church and would love for anyone to come taste it. If you were here to learn, I would hope God would open our hearts so that we may all truly taste Him. Likewise, even if you were here to disturb, I would hope God would open our hearts so that we may all truly taste Him.
[quote author=Truthseeker link=topic=14587.msg165933#msg165933 date=1379095816] [quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=14587.msg165932#msg165932 date=1379093434] I added more explanation I am not very deep in my faith myself but I use scripture myself and then find it agrees with what the church says I am too busy to reply to you now hopefully someone else will.
But what duties do you think they have in heaven? all their duty is towards us heaven is not eating and drinking but is the practicing of the fruit of the spirit which is love and service to all
Some quotes I used are my own interpretations that could be saying that but not all see how deep a scripture is that last verse I posted should not be used if I want to prove I would not use that for absolute proof but to make one look at other scripture to understand what he means exactly. I may doubt the scripture but that last verse may be pretty clear what it is saying but there may be other better ones. Scripture seems to have alot of meaning and is not always literal.
For example John says "and noone receives his testimony" but is that true? for some do. But the majority do not. Also the word all may not necessarily mean all so one can get different conclusions from all scripture but one who studies all of scripture will know the truth and the truth will set him free
St Paul said to Timothy
2 Timothy 2:15 New King James Version (NKJV) 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
So the best people to teach are those who give their lives to studying the bible and those who claim to descend from the apostles should be given serious attention but not all are trustworthy some are hirelings who do not care about the sheep when they are in trouble but care only to please the world they say apostolic succession is historical but I did not accept Jesus because of history I do not trust history books but because of the harmony of scripture and fulfilled prophesies that I came to understand
But noone can come to Jesus unless the Father who sent Him draws Him and orthodox would say that applies to joining the church also for Jesus did say that when He was making the sacrament of Holy Communion. But how relevant is that to today? would God turn away someone who wants to follow Him and is a christian? you would need to read the scripture for that for Jesus said He will turn away noone who comes to Him. He turns away those who do not desire the full truth I think and they know the truth but they hate it
Well said
once again I added more to my last post
I say this as a person who orthodox consider lost and even other christians for I will not pick a side woe to you when all men speak well of you for so did their fathers to the false prophets
Another point - if only God is omnipotent, what happens if you try to contact a saint and thousands of others are at the same time? He can only listen to one at a time?
it is more to do with seeking God not the saint and the saint asking God to draw us closer to Him by his life can anyone else say something?
faith does not come with wisdom of words but letting God reveal Himself to you and seeking Him still if anyone here really had faith they should be able to defend it but it will not help you if you yourself are not honest in seeking but I would like answers myself or for others but they have forsaken me too perhaps maybe because I say things which they think is too much or stumbles people
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=14587.msg165937#msg165937 date=1379097393] it is more to do with seeking God not the saint and the saint asking God to draw us closer to Him by his life can anyone else say something?
faith does not come with wisdom of words but letting God reveal Himself to you and seeking Him still if anyone here really had faith they should be able to defend it but it will not help you if you yourself are not honest in seeking but I would like answers myself or for others but they have forsaken me too perhaps because I am wild on this site and maybe a trouble maker
[quote author=Truthseeker link=topic=14587.msg165928#msg165928 date=1379088401] I am no longer accusing you of worshipping idols, that was cleared up in previous posts. My question is about contacting the dead.
Understood.
Anyway, you make a good point here:
Quote:If this is your understanding, Christ died in the flesh? There would be a lack of consistency in scripture if truly this is what the verse meant. Cause in all evidence we, not only speak to Christ, we MUST speak to Him.
Christ is God in the flesh. Do you not think that he is an exception? He is no ordinary man.He is the only one who died and was resurrected. Just because we speak to him, does not grant us the same license to speak to others who also died. I may be wrong here, but that is my understanding.
Honestly, I will not elaborate too much on that point because my tendency would be to disagree that Christ is an exception. I need to study a few things before confirming this as true, but my understanding is that Christ came on earth to set an example. "Be holy for I am holy". In the end, we should do anything He was able to do. Because now I have the name of the Lord. Just like St. Paul told the beggar “Silver and gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk.” In any case, I wont elaborate too much on that. It could be another interesting discussion for our edification.
Now, I'm not accusing you of worshipping the dead. I am merely accusing you of contacting them. I agree in intercession. When we ask other living people to pray for us, that is intercession. When the Apostles spread their message, they were doing Christ's work, but they were alive in the flesh at the time. Their writings and teachings discontinued when they died. Paul wrote no letters after he had died. There is no evidence that he communicated with us after he died, so why, for example, should we try to communicate with him?
Understood. I am glad we are getting certain details cleared up. I will elaborate shortly.
I see nothing in the scriptures provided in this thread that gives us permission to speak to anyone who has passed over to the other side, no matter whether we are asking them to pray for us, to watch over us, or to make us a cup of tea. I only read that we are meant to pray to Jesus Christ. Communication with any others who have died is forbidden. If I missed the bit of scripture that says we can contact those who have passed to the other side then please tell me what it is.
Jesus speaking to Elijah, for example, does not count. Jesus has authority to do things which we cannot. If Jesus wished to contact the spirits of those who are dead, then that was his right to do so. I thought I would point this out before you throw more irrelevant examples at me.
Again similar point to earlier, can we really claim that Jesus in the flesh did things we could not in the flesh? As I said, I am actually unsure of my position, I am simply thinking out loud (or in writing hehe), but what would be the point of the incarnation - if we wasn't 100% human like we were? Anyways, this could actually make a whole new complicated discussion, and we should probably stay focused on the point itself so not to go on tagents. All this to say, potentially lets both of us not use that argument since we are not on a common ground with it.
So far you have accused me of blasphemy, yet I have said nothing blasphemous, you say that I have a memory of a goldfish, you have accused me of idolatry. You have come across as incredibly nasty and judgemental. You remind me of the pharisees who were so full of hatred. Why do you behave in such a way? If a question is asked, why not answer it? You have answered many questions but not the one that I have asked. I do read your posts but discard most of them because they have not answered my question. If you can't answer the question, then fine, don't answer it. At least admit that you can't. Quoting Isahiah 5:20 doesn't work either. I know that you are not supposed to call good evil or evil good. I am not calling good evil or evil good. I am merely asking you why you think it is okay to speak to the dead, when it is supposed to be forbidden. Hiding behind scripture does not defend your cause. I could equally throw Isaiah 5:20 at yourselves, if I so wished, but I choose not to idly throw scripture at you, especially when it is irrelevant to the conversation. In fact anybody can throw scripture at anyone. It makes them appear clever and knowledgeable. If you're going to quote scripture, please make sure that it is relevant. Please don't accuse me of coming with a prior attitude. I am an open book, but I can read and I can speak to the holy spirit the same as anyone else. You do not have a monopoly over God. I believe in testing the spirits and I believe in testing the churches too. It is only me speaking with all of you who post here. I am on my own, but you sure do like to gang up and spew your venom. Safety in numbers, is it? Are you incapable of defending your church without spewing venom. The best way to defend your church is with the truth and if you can't truthfully deal with one question...........................
I have done none of these. If I feel attacked or the discussion leading to both of us hard headed, I simply refrain from replying. You may be here to learn, to disturb or whatever you like. I am in no position to judge. I love my church and would love for anyone to come taste it. If you were here to learn, I would hope God would open our hearts so that we may all truly taste Him. Likewise, even if you were here to disturb, I would hope God would open our hearts so that we may all truly taste Him.
In case you hadn't seen it.
[quote author=Truthseeker link=topic=14587.msg165936#msg165936 date=1379096924] Another point - if only God is omnipotent, what happens if you try to contact a saint and thousands of others are at the same time? He can only listen to one at a time?
Good question. I cannot comment on these logistics. One that would be interesting to study. Ill try to think about it, unless someone else can provide an answer.
Now for the talking to the dead. Let's discuss together.
If they were dead in spirit we would not be able to contact them anyway, so making the excuse that they are not really dead is no excuse). So when God says do not disturb the dead then he means do not contact those who are dead in the flesh.
"Sin brings forth death". That is eternal death. That is seperation from God.
Death, at least according to my possible quite poor understanding, is not death in the flesh. It is death to the Spirit. Life, being alive, is one who is "filled with the Spirit". So, you may claim that this refers to people dead in the flesh. But the bible itself in James ("sin brings forth death") and in Romans ("For the wages of sin is death") refer to spiritual death when talking about death. Because surely we all sin but we don't physically die instantly? So again, the bible must be consistent.
So in the end we both disagree with the word "dead". Because a person dead in the flesh and not filled with the Spirit still goes to hell where there "There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out."
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=14587.msg165937#msg165937 date=1379097393] it is more to do with seeking God not the saint and the saint asking God to draw us closer to Him by his life can anyone else say something?
faith does not come with wisdom of words but letting God reveal Himself to you and seeking Him still if anyone here really had faith they should be able to defend it but it will not help you if you yourself are not honest in seeking
Thanks any else want to explain more? or did Amoussa01 explain it already?
I can confirm he already has answered perfectly
2 Timothy 2 23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. 24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
It gladdens my heart to know, Truthseeker that you love the Lord Jesus. You have come to Tasbeha to inquire about Orthodoxy. Welcome. I see some issues that have not been addressed in full. There is the teaching about the Communion of Saints, the veneration of Saints, the authority of the Church, Holy Tradition and Sola Scriptura. If these issues are not addressed fully one by one this discussion will continue going around in circles frustrating everyone and not conversing in the love of God. The discussion to me seems to be too close to the trees without first viewing the forest.
[quote author=Boricua_Orthodox link=topic=14587.msg165973#msg165973 date=1379297111] It gladdens my heart to know, Truthseeker that you love the Lord Jesus. You have come to Tasbeha to inquire about Orthodoxy. Welcome. I see some issues that have not been addressed in full. There is the teaching about the Communion of Saints, the veneration of Saints, the authority of the Church, Holy Tradition and Sola Scriptura. If these issues are not addressed fully one by one this discussion will continue going around in circles frustrating everyone and not conversing in the love of God. The discussion to me seems to be too close to the trees without first viewing the forest.
These things can take time. I understand. I'm going to break off for a bit, have a think and then come back.
Comments
James 1:17
New King James Version (NKJV)
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.
18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not[a] seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.
to form a saint into your own image is idolatry. If any of a saints teachings go against Christ then you are worshipping a saint
I can't find an example where a saint has said anything bad but if he teaches to show contempt towards some humans or to regard some people as lesser people and wanting to keep them as such that is not Christ and you are choosing a man whom you call a saint instead of God
Christ said whoever wants to be great let him be a servant
and whoever exalts himself will be humbled
Yes but they were alive at the time............................................
I'm talking about talking to the dead - which is forbidden.
Why don't you answer my question?
Where in the Bible does it say that you can contact the dead?
Stop throwing random scripture at me as if I don't know it. Stop talking about intercession. I'm aware of this too. Intercession is getting others to pray on your behalf (living people).
I would like to think that you are right but all you can do with your arrogance is point the finger at me and accuse me of having a hellish view of scripture.You know nothing of my other views of scripture, so how can you say that I have a Hellish view. What else have I told you that I believe in?
Remove the plank from your own eye before you tell me what my views are!
I really wanted to join your church, but your arrogance is constantly putting me off. You accuse me of worshipping idols. Earlier on, I specifically told you that you ONLY pray to Jesus Christ, so how can I be worshipping idols? What a pathetically irrational statement for you to make. You claim that I lack logic....... :'(
I am no expert on biblical translations and interpretations, however from different sources (not sure of the reliability), I was told the King James version/New King James Version are the most likely one of the most accurate. Here it says calls up the dead. In other words literally raising the dead? I can be completely wrong and hence why I am not emphasizing this point. I am saying that our inability to come to a common understanding may be due to a matter of translation because I definitely do not consider myself to ever talk to someone dead or waking someone up from the dead. To me, I am speaking to a live Spirit.
Let me bring this point up. Because clearly our understanding of this verse is different and to me it sounds your reasoning is inconsistent. Earlier you said we should not talk to a person who died in the flesh:
[quote author=Truthseeker link=topic=14587.msg165926#msg165926 date=1379083192]
Sounds to me like someone is messing about with semantics here. Dead means 'dead in the flesh'. Just because these people are technically alive in spirit does not mean that they are not dead in the flesh. God makes it clear that we are not to disturb the dead. Deut 8 (If they were dead in spirit we would not be able to contact them anyway, so making the excuse that they are not really dead is no excuse). So when God says do not disturb the dead then he means do not contact those who are dead in the flesh. He never meant, "Oh, you can't contact the dead, but you CAN contact them because they're not really dead anyway!" Your argument is illogical, yet you dare to call me thick as a brick!
I really wanted to join your church, but your arrogance is constantly putting me off. You accuse me of worshipping idols. Earlier on, I specifically told you that you ONLY pray to Jesus Christ, so how can I be worshipping idols? What a pathetically irrational statement for you to make. You claim that I lack logic....... :'(
If this is your understanding, Christ died in the flesh? There would be a lack of consistency in scripture if truly this is what the verse meant. Cause in all evidence we, not only speak to Christ, we MUST speak to Him.
Theres a few point I want to re-iterate to simply be sure you understand our position.
- Saint are alive in Spirit and thus not dead.
- We do not worship idols. We worship/respect a spirit that is alive. (You can view Reminiki's post for that) we worship the Holy Spirit that filled their hearts and made them 'the light of world'.
- We worship and pray to and only to God. Only He can redeem us and gives us our promised salvation. We only ask those who are close to His heart (those alive in Spirit and gained the joy of Paradise) to ask on our behalf for our request. Exactly like Saint Mary did when she pleaded with Christ at the wedding of Cana. Those that are with the Lord can help us ask from the Lord for our Salvation :
Anyway, you make a good point here:
Quote:If this is your understanding, Christ died in the flesh? There would be a lack of consistency in scripture if truly this is what the verse meant. Cause in all evidence we, not only speak to Christ, we MUST speak to Him.
Christ is God in the flesh. Do you not think that he is an exception? He is no ordinary man.He is the only one who died and was resurrected. Just because we speak to him, does not grant us the same license to speak to others who also died. I may be wrong here, but that is my understanding.
Now, I'm not accusing you of worshipping the dead. I am merely accusing you of contacting them. I agree in intercession. When we ask other living people to pray for us, that is intercession. When the Apostles spread their message, they were doing Christ's work, but they were alive in the flesh at the time. Their writings and teachings discontinued when they died. Paul wrote no letters after he had died. There is no evidence that he communicated with us after he died, so why, for example, should we try to communicate with him?
I see nothing in the scriptures provided in this thread that gives us permission to speak to anyone who has passed over to the other side, no matter whether we are asking them to pray for us, to watch over us, or to make us a cup of tea. I only read that we are meant to pray to Jesus Christ. Communication with any others who have died is forbidden. If I missed the bit of scripture that says we can contact those who have passed to the other side then please tell me what it is.
Jesus speaking to Elijah, for example, does not count. Jesus has authority to do things which we cannot. If Jesus wished to contact the spirits of those who are dead, then that was his right to do so. I thought I would point this out before you throw more irrelevant examples at me.
So far you have accused me of blasphemy, yet I have said nothing blasphemous, you say that I have a memory of a goldfish, you have accused me of idolatry. You have come across as incredibly nasty and judgemental. You remind me of the pharisees who were so full of hatred. Why do you behave in such a way? If a question is asked, why not answer it? You have answered many questions but not the one that I have asked. I do read your posts but discard most of them because they have not answered my question. If you can't answer the question, then fine, don't answer it. At least admit that you can't.
Quoting Isahiah 5:20 doesn't work either. I know that you are not supposed to call good evil or evil good. I am not calling good evil or evil good. I am merely asking you why you think it is okay to speak to the dead, when it is supposed to be forbidden. Hiding behind scripture does not defend your cause. I could equally throw Isaiah 5:20 at yourselves, if I so wished, but I choose not to idly throw scripture at you, especially when it is irrelevant to the conversation. In fact anybody can throw scripture at anyone. It makes them appear clever and knowledgeable. If you're going to quote scripture, please make sure that it is relevant.
Please don't accuse me of coming with a prior attitude. I am an open book, but I can read and I can speak to the holy spirit the same as anyone else. You do not have a monopoly over God.
I believe in testing the spirits and I believe in testing the churches too. It is only me speaking with all of you who post here. I am on my own, but you sure do like to gang up and spew your venom. Safety in numbers, is it? Are you incapable of defending your church without spewing venom. The best way to defend your church is with the truth and if you can't truthfully deal with one question...........................
We do not contact the dead. We simply ask them to pray for us. We do not pray to them or ask them to do anything for us. God is the one who helps us and He sets His ministers (saints) and angels over us to guide us (see psalm 103:20-21)
About the angels
"are they not ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation"
We also learn that Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus on the Holy Mount to strengthen Him to do His will. We are fellow citizens with the saint according to the below verse. That means we can talk to them. They pray for us according to God's will. And they rejoice in our turning to God. God lets the saints help us that we might also love the saints and try to be like them. God loves us Himself but He will glorify His saints that we may seek to be like them and that he who receives a righteous man receives a righteous mans reward. God told Jobs friends to ask Job to pray for them so that His wrath may not be on them. Because if one thought evil to a saint he must bow to him to deserve forgiveness and by loving him God will bless him and the relationship to the saint is significant because one learns why God loved the saint and only by growing closer to the saint can one know how short he is before God. So we read the stories of saints and we try to ask God to reveal to us more of their life and so we bless the saint. That is the meaning of the relationship to the saints not to pray to them as a replacement to God because God does not help us
Matthew 10:41-42
And he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward. 42 And whoever gives one of these little ones only a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple, assuredly, I say to you, he shall by no means lose his reward.”
When we pray to Him He sends us His saints. And so we might as well thank them. But we can pray to God Himself
So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God
Ephesians 2:19
Why do we need saints if we have Christ? because it is easy to connect with someone who we once knew and we let them have a part in our salvation that both he who reaps and he who sows may rejoice together
Just as Jesus commanded us to remember Him so we should remember the saints who were before us
Hebrews 13:7
Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct.
we ask God to help us attain their virtues
So saint paul also said that things to come belong to us now
1 Corinthians 3:22-23
22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas, or the world or life or death, or things present or things to come—all are yours. 23 And you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=14587.msg165929#msg165929 date=1379090695]
You are not to convert because of people but because of scripture and truth. Search any other place honestly and ask yourself do they really have more truth than orthodoxy? I am afraid all the churches are in error but perhaps orthodoxy is true for it also does not condemn protestants it seems to eternal hell unless they are lying to me now
Thank you for that. I condemn no one either, Protestant, Catholic or Orthodox. I don't think that many churches do have more truth than Orthodoxy, to be honest with you, which is why I have found myself attracted to Orthodoxy in the first place. I think that Orthodoxy is very close to spiritual truth.
My only gripe with Orthodoxy is this subject that we are talking about now.
We do not contact the dead. We simply ask them to pray for us. We do not pray for them or ask them to do anything for us. God is the one who helps us and He sets His ministers (saints) and angels over us to guide us (see psalm 103:20-21)
Why is not contacting the same as asking to pray? If you are asking somebody something then you are contacting them. That's like saying, "I don't speak to people, I only talk to them." Maybe, I'm confused here as to what you mean by the word contact.
About the angels
"are they not ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation"
We also learn that Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus on the Holy Mount to strengthen Him to do His will. We are fellow citizens with the saint according to the below verse. That means we can talk to them. They pray for us according to God's will. And they rejoice in our turning to God
So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God
Ephesians 2:19
I can understand where you are coming from here, but being fellow citizens with the Saints, somehow does not imply that we can speak to them when they are dead. Besides, what does the word saint mean to you? What is a saint? Orthodoxy has defined a saint as being someone who has died and canonised as such, but I've never found anywhere in the Bible that suggests this. Of course, I could be wrong. My interpretation of the Bible defines a saint as a believer, any believer. I have to admit that I am unsure about this. I have meticulously read verses that refer to saints, and cannot work out where Orthodoxy believed that Saints had another definition. I would also point out that I believe that my late mother is also a citizen, but I have never believed that I have permission to communicate with her whilst I am still alive and she is on the other side.
Why do we need saints if we have Christ? because it is easy to connect with someone who we once knew and we let them have a part in our salvation that both he who reaps and he who sows may rejoice together
Again, I can find no scriptural evidence of this. We can learn from others wiser than ourselves and we can ask advice from others wiser than ourselves. We can remember those who have died and learn from their lives and what they may have told us when they were alive or what they wrote. We can honour their memory, but when they pass on they have other duties to fulfill in heaven. I was not aware that we are allowed to disturb them.
Just as Jesus commanded us to remember Him so we should remember the saints who were before us
As above
Hebrews 13:7
Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct.
we ask God to help us attain their virtues
Again as above
So saint paul also said that things to come belong to us now
1 Corinthians 3:22-23
22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas, or the world or life or death, or things present or things to come—all are yours. 23 And you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.
Simply confirming that we are all as one. That we are all saved. We all belong to Christ. I don't think it infers in any way that we contact our brothers and sisters who have passed on
I am too busy to reply to you now hopefully someone else will.
But what duties do you think they have in heaven? all their duty is towards us
heaven is not eating and drinking but is the practicing of the fruit of the spirit which is love and service to all
Some quotes I used are my own interpretations that could be saying that but not all see how deep a scripture is that last verse I posted should not be used if I want to prove I would not use that for absolute proof but to make one look at other scripture to understand what he means exactly. I may doubt the scripture but that last verse may be pretty clear what it is saying but there may be other better ones. Scripture seems to have alot of meaning and is not always literal.
For example John says "and noone receives his testimony" but is that true? for some do. But the majority do not. Also the word all may not necessarily mean all
so one can get different conclusions from all scripture but one who studies all of scripture will know the truth and the truth will set him free
St Paul said to Timothy
2 Timothy 2:15
New King James Version (NKJV)
15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
So the best people to teach are those who give their lives to studying the bible and those who claim to descend from the apostles should be given serious attention but not all are trustworthy some are hirelings who do not care about the sheep when they are in trouble but care only to please the world
they say apostolic succession is historical but I did not accept Jesus because of history I do not trust history books but because of the harmony of scripture and fulfilled prophesies that I came to understand
But noone can come to Jesus unless the Father who sent Him draws Him and orthodox would say that applies to joining the church also for Jesus did say that when He was making the sacrament of Holy Communion. But how relevant is that to today? would God turn away someone who wants to follow Him and is a christian? you would need to read the scripture for that
for Jesus said He will turn away noone who comes to Him. He turns away those who do not desire the full truth I think and they know the truth but they hate it
in the parable of the hired workers those in the eleventh hour were shown compassion whom noone evangelised to them and show them the truth which they would have obeyed if it was convincing. But they would have been more useful to the kingdom if they had come earlier perhaps assuming they could and it may refer to those who always sought the truth but noone would show them it. God will either accept them or He will send them someone to show them the truth for they seek to fully do the Fathers will and be spiritually alive. We believe the Holy Communion gives spiritual life but the orthodox say they do not condemn all protestants to hell if they did say that I would ask where is their evangelism? why did they let me leave orthodoxy? I would be as lost as protestants. Noone deserves to be judged but he who rejects what he knows is true. Maybe they are doing all they can and I do not see it
I added more explanation I am not very deep in my faith myself but I use scripture myself and then find it agrees with what the church says
I am too busy to reply to you now hopefully someone else will.
But what duties do you think they have in heaven? all their duty is towards us
heaven is not eating and drinking but is the practicing of the fruit of the spirit which is love and service to all
Some quotes I used are my own interpretations that could be saying that but not all see how deep a scripture is that last verse I posted should not be used if I want to prove I would not use that for absolute proof but to make one look at other scripture to understand what he means exactly. I may doubt the scripture but that last verse may be pretty clear what it is saying but there may be other better ones. Scripture seems to have alot of meaning and is not always literal.
For example John says "and noone receives his testimony" but is that true? for some do. But the majority do not. Also the word all may not necessarily mean all
so one can get different conclusions from all scripture but one who studies all of scripture will know the truth and the truth will set him free
St Paul said to Timothy
2 Timothy 2:15
New King James Version (NKJV)
15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
So the best people to teach are those who give their lives to studying the bible and those who claim to descend from the apostles should be given serious attention but not all are trustworthy some are hirelings who do not care about the sheep when they are in trouble but care only to please the world
they say apostolic succession is historical but I did not accept Jesus because of history I do not trust history books but because of the harmony of scripture and fulfilled prophesies that I came to understand
But noone can come to Jesus unless the Father who sent Him draws Him and orthodox would say that applies to joining the church also for Jesus did say that when He was making the sacrament of Holy Communion. But how relevant is that to today? would God turn away someone who wants to follow Him and is a christian? you would need to read the scripture for that
for Jesus said He will turn away noone who comes to Him. He turns away those who do not desire the full truth I think and they know the truth but they hate it
Well said
I am no longer accusing you of worshipping idols, that was cleared up in previous posts. My question is about contacting the dead.
Understood.
Anyway, you make a good point here:
Quote:If this is your understanding, Christ died in the flesh? There would be a lack of consistency in scripture if truly this is what the verse meant. Cause in all evidence we, not only speak to Christ, we MUST speak to Him.
Christ is God in the flesh. Do you not think that he is an exception? He is no ordinary man.He is the only one who died and was resurrected. Just because we speak to him, does not grant us the same license to speak to others who also died. I may be wrong here, but that is my understanding.
Honestly, I will not elaborate too much on that point because my tendency would be to disagree that Christ is an exception. I need to study a few things before confirming this as true, but my understanding is that Christ came on earth to set an example. "Be holy for I am holy". In the end, we should do anything He was able to do. Because now I have the name of the Lord. Just like St. Paul told the beggar “Silver and gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk.” In any case, I wont elaborate too much on that. It could be another interesting discussion for our edification.
Now, I'm not accusing you of worshipping the dead. I am merely accusing you of contacting them. I agree in intercession. When we ask other living people to pray for us, that is intercession. When the Apostles spread their message, they were doing Christ's work, but they were alive in the flesh at the time. Their writings and teachings discontinued when they died. Paul wrote no letters after he had died. There is no evidence that he communicated with us after he died, so why, for example, should we try to communicate with him?
Understood. I am glad we are getting certain details cleared up. I will elaborate shortly.
I see nothing in the scriptures provided in this thread that gives us permission to speak to anyone who has passed over to the other side, no matter whether we are asking them to pray for us, to watch over us, or to make us a cup of tea. I only read that we are meant to pray to Jesus Christ. Communication with any others who have died is forbidden. If I missed the bit of scripture that says we can contact those who have passed to the other side then please tell me what it is.
Jesus speaking to Elijah, for example, does not count. Jesus has authority to do things which we cannot. If Jesus wished to contact the spirits of those who are dead, then that was his right to do so. I thought I would point this out before you throw more irrelevant examples at me.
Again similar point to earlier, can we really claim that Jesus in the flesh did things we could not in the flesh? As I said, I am actually unsure of my position, I am simply thinking out loud (or in writing hehe), but what would be the point of the incarnation - if we wasn't 100% human like we were? Anyways, this could actually make a whole new complicated discussion, and we should probably stay focused on the point itself so not to go on tagents. All this to say, potentially lets both of us not use that argument since we are not on a common ground with it.
So far you have accused me of blasphemy, yet I have said nothing blasphemous, you say that I have a memory of a goldfish, you have accused me of idolatry. You have come across as incredibly nasty and judgemental. You remind me of the pharisees who were so full of hatred. Why do you behave in such a way? If a question is asked, why not answer it? You have answered many questions but not the one that I have asked. I do read your posts but discard most of them because they have not answered my question. If you can't answer the question, then fine, don't answer it. At least admit that you can't.
Quoting Isahiah 5:20 doesn't work either. I know that you are not supposed to call good evil or evil good. I am not calling good evil or evil good. I am merely asking you why you think it is okay to speak to the dead, when it is supposed to be forbidden. Hiding behind scripture does not defend your cause. I could equally throw Isaiah 5:20 at yourselves, if I so wished, but I choose not to idly throw scripture at you, especially when it is irrelevant to the conversation. In fact anybody can throw scripture at anyone. It makes them appear clever and knowledgeable. If you're going to quote scripture, please make sure that it is relevant.
Please don't accuse me of coming with a prior attitude. I am an open book, but I can read and I can speak to the holy spirit the same as anyone else. You do not have a monopoly over God.
I believe in testing the spirits and I believe in testing the churches too. It is only me speaking with all of you who post here. I am on my own, but you sure do like to gang up and spew your venom. Safety in numbers, is it? Are you incapable of defending your church without spewing venom. The best way to defend your church is with the truth and if you can't truthfully deal with one question...........................
I have done none of these. If I feel attacked or the discussion leading to both of us hard headed, I simply refrain from replying. You may be here to learn, to disturb or whatever you like. I am in no position to judge. I love my church and would love for anyone to come taste it. If you were here to learn, I would hope God would open our hearts so that we may all truly taste Him. Likewise, even if you were here to disturb, I would hope God would open our hearts so that we may all truly taste Him.
[quote author=mikeforjesus link=topic=14587.msg165932#msg165932 date=1379093434]
I added more explanation I am not very deep in my faith myself but I use scripture myself and then find it agrees with what the church says
I am too busy to reply to you now hopefully someone else will.
But what duties do you think they have in heaven? all their duty is towards us
heaven is not eating and drinking but is the practicing of the fruit of the spirit which is love and service to all
Some quotes I used are my own interpretations that could be saying that but not all see how deep a scripture is that last verse I posted should not be used if I want to prove I would not use that for absolute proof but to make one look at other scripture to understand what he means exactly. I may doubt the scripture but that last verse may be pretty clear what it is saying but there may be other better ones. Scripture seems to have alot of meaning and is not always literal.
For example John says "and noone receives his testimony" but is that true? for some do. But the majority do not. Also the word all may not necessarily mean all
so one can get different conclusions from all scripture but one who studies all of scripture will know the truth and the truth will set him free
St Paul said to Timothy
2 Timothy 2:15
New King James Version (NKJV)
15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
So the best people to teach are those who give their lives to studying the bible and those who claim to descend from the apostles should be given serious attention but not all are trustworthy some are hirelings who do not care about the sheep when they are in trouble but care only to please the world
they say apostolic succession is historical but I did not accept Jesus because of history I do not trust history books but because of the harmony of scripture and fulfilled prophesies that I came to understand
But noone can come to Jesus unless the Father who sent Him draws Him and orthodox would say that applies to joining the church also for Jesus did say that when He was making the sacrament of Holy Communion. But how relevant is that to today? would God turn away someone who wants to follow Him and is a christian? you would need to read the scripture for that
for Jesus said He will turn away noone who comes to Him. He turns away those who do not desire the full truth I think and they know the truth but they hate it
Well said
once again I added more to my last post
I say this as a person who orthodox consider lost and even other christians for I will not pick a side
woe to you when all men speak well of you for so did their fathers to the false prophets
can anyone else say something?
faith does not come with wisdom of words but letting God reveal Himself to you and seeking Him
still if anyone here really had faith they should be able to defend it but it will not help you if you yourself are not honest in seeking but I would like answers myself or for others but they have forsaken me too perhaps maybe because I say things which they think is too much or stumbles people
it is more to do with seeking God not the saint and the saint asking God to draw us closer to Him by his life
can anyone else say something?
faith does not come with wisdom of words but letting God reveal Himself to you and seeking Him
still if anyone here really had faith they should be able to defend it but it will not help you if you yourself are not honest in seeking but I would like answers myself or for others but they have forsaken me too perhaps because I am wild on this site and maybe a trouble maker
Don't worry, you've humbly tried your best.
It seems that you have completely overlooked my post and page 2. Please read or re-read it!
I am no longer accusing you of worshipping idols, that was cleared up in previous posts. My question is about contacting the dead.
Understood.
Anyway, you make a good point here:
Quote:If this is your understanding, Christ died in the flesh? There would be a lack of consistency in scripture if truly this is what the verse meant. Cause in all evidence we, not only speak to Christ, we MUST speak to Him.
Christ is God in the flesh. Do you not think that he is an exception? He is no ordinary man.He is the only one who died and was resurrected. Just because we speak to him, does not grant us the same license to speak to others who also died. I may be wrong here, but that is my understanding.
Honestly, I will not elaborate too much on that point because my tendency would be to disagree that Christ is an exception. I need to study a few things before confirming this as true, but my understanding is that Christ came on earth to set an example. "Be holy for I am holy". In the end, we should do anything He was able to do. Because now I have the name of the Lord. Just like St. Paul told the beggar “Silver and gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk.” In any case, I wont elaborate too much on that. It could be another interesting discussion for our edification.
Now, I'm not accusing you of worshipping the dead. I am merely accusing you of contacting them. I agree in intercession. When we ask other living people to pray for us, that is intercession. When the Apostles spread their message, they were doing Christ's work, but they were alive in the flesh at the time. Their writings and teachings discontinued when they died. Paul wrote no letters after he had died. There is no evidence that he communicated with us after he died, so why, for example, should we try to communicate with him?
Understood. I am glad we are getting certain details cleared up. I will elaborate shortly.
I see nothing in the scriptures provided in this thread that gives us permission to speak to anyone who has passed over to the other side, no matter whether we are asking them to pray for us, to watch over us, or to make us a cup of tea. I only read that we are meant to pray to Jesus Christ. Communication with any others who have died is forbidden. If I missed the bit of scripture that says we can contact those who have passed to the other side then please tell me what it is.
Jesus speaking to Elijah, for example, does not count. Jesus has authority to do things which we cannot. If Jesus wished to contact the spirits of those who are dead, then that was his right to do so. I thought I would point this out before you throw more irrelevant examples at me.
Again similar point to earlier, can we really claim that Jesus in the flesh did things we could not in the flesh? As I said, I am actually unsure of my position, I am simply thinking out loud (or in writing hehe), but what would be the point of the incarnation - if we wasn't 100% human like we were? Anyways, this could actually make a whole new complicated discussion, and we should probably stay focused on the point itself so not to go on tagents. All this to say, potentially lets both of us not use that argument since we are not on a common ground with it.
So far you have accused me of blasphemy, yet I have said nothing blasphemous, you say that I have a memory of a goldfish, you have accused me of idolatry. You have come across as incredibly nasty and judgemental. You remind me of the pharisees who were so full of hatred. Why do you behave in such a way? If a question is asked, why not answer it? You have answered many questions but not the one that I have asked. I do read your posts but discard most of them because they have not answered my question. If you can't answer the question, then fine, don't answer it. At least admit that you can't.
Quoting Isahiah 5:20 doesn't work either. I know that you are not supposed to call good evil or evil good. I am not calling good evil or evil good. I am merely asking you why you think it is okay to speak to the dead, when it is supposed to be forbidden. Hiding behind scripture does not defend your cause. I could equally throw Isaiah 5:20 at yourselves, if I so wished, but I choose not to idly throw scripture at you, especially when it is irrelevant to the conversation. In fact anybody can throw scripture at anyone. It makes them appear clever and knowledgeable. If you're going to quote scripture, please make sure that it is relevant.
Please don't accuse me of coming with a prior attitude. I am an open book, but I can read and I can speak to the holy spirit the same as anyone else. You do not have a monopoly over God.
I believe in testing the spirits and I believe in testing the churches too. It is only me speaking with all of you who post here. I am on my own, but you sure do like to gang up and spew your venom. Safety in numbers, is it? Are you incapable of defending your church without spewing venom. The best way to defend your church is with the truth and if you can't truthfully deal with one question...........................
I have done none of these. If I feel attacked or the discussion leading to both of us hard headed, I simply refrain from replying. You may be here to learn, to disturb or whatever you like. I am in no position to judge. I love my church and would love for anyone to come taste it. If you were here to learn, I would hope God would open our hearts so that we may all truly taste Him. Likewise, even if you were here to disturb, I would hope God would open our hearts so that we may all truly taste Him.
In case you hadn't seen it.
[quote author=Truthseeker link=topic=14587.msg165936#msg165936 date=1379096924]
Another point - if only God is omnipotent, what happens if you try to contact a saint and thousands of others are at the same time? He can only listen to one at a time?
Good question. I cannot comment on these logistics. One that would be interesting to study. Ill try to think about it, unless someone else can provide an answer.
Now for the talking to the dead. Let's discuss together. "Sin brings forth death". That is eternal death. That is seperation from God.
Death, at least according to my possible quite poor understanding, is not death in the flesh. It is death to the Spirit. Life, being alive, is one who is "filled with the Spirit". So, you may claim that this refers to people dead in the flesh. But the bible itself in James ("sin brings forth death") and in Romans ("For the wages of sin is death") refer to spiritual death when talking about death. Because surely we all sin but we don't physically die instantly? So again, the bible must be consistent.
So in the end we both disagree with the word "dead". Because a person dead in the flesh and not filled with the Spirit still goes to hell where there "There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out."
TruthSeeker,
It seems that you have completely overlooked my post and page 2. Please read or re-read it!
I'll go back at some point and re-read this.
it is more to do with seeking God not the saint and the saint asking God to draw us closer to Him by his life
can anyone else say something?
faith does not come with wisdom of words but letting God reveal Himself to you and seeking Him
still if anyone here really had faith they should be able to defend it but it will not help you if you yourself are not honest in seeking
very good explanation, mikeforJesus.
I can confirm he already has answered perfectly
2 Timothy 2
23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. 24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
I see some issues that have not been addressed in full. There is the teaching about the Communion of Saints, the veneration of Saints, the authority of the Church, Holy Tradition and Sola Scriptura. If these issues are not addressed fully one by one this discussion will continue going around in circles frustrating everyone and not conversing in the love of God. The discussion to me seems to be too close to the trees without first viewing the forest.
It gladdens my heart to know, Truthseeker that you love the Lord Jesus. You have come to Tasbeha to inquire about Orthodoxy. Welcome.
I see some issues that have not been addressed in full. There is the teaching about the Communion of Saints, the veneration of Saints, the authority of the Church, Holy Tradition and Sola Scriptura. If these issues are not addressed fully one by one this discussion will continue going around in circles frustrating everyone and not conversing in the love of God. The discussion to me seems to be too close to the trees without first viewing the forest.
These things can take time. I understand. I'm going to break off for a bit, have a think and then come back.