Kol sana we 2ento tayben and may the blessings of the Advent fast be with us all.
My question is when are we starting 7&4 tasbeha this year? I know that for some reason we have to have 4 weeks of 7&4, but this year the last Saturday of Kiahk is going to be the Paramoun of the Nativity. So, will we have 7&4 on the Paramoun day or will we have it on the last week of Hatour? Or do we only have 3 weeks of 7&4 this year? (O God, No!)
Comments
Kol sana we 2ento tayben and may the blessings of the Advent fast be with us all.
My question is when are we starting 7&4 tasbeha this year? I know that for some reason we have to have 4 weeks of 7&4, but this year the last Saturday of Kiahk is going to be the Paramoun of the Nativity. So, will we have 7&4 on the Paramoun day or will we have it on the last week of Hatour? Or do we only have 3 weeks of 7&4 this year? (O God, No!)
Hatoor this yr will ave 5 sundays. the last sunday of that will become the first sunday of Kiahk.
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=13932.msg161458#msg161458 date=1353891264]
Kol sana we 2ento tayben and may the blessings of the Advent fast be with us all.
My question is when are we starting 7&4 tasbeha this year? I know that for some reason we have to have 4 weeks of 7&4, but this year the last Saturday of Kiahk is going to be the Paramoun of the Nativity. So, will we have 7&4 on the Paramoun day or will we have it on the last week of Hatour? Or do we only have 3 weeks of 7&4 this year? (O God, No!)
Hatoor this yr will ave 5 sundays. the last sunday of that will become the first sunday of Kiahk.
So 7&4 is going to be from Dec. 8th to 29th this year, right?
Oh and btw why do we have to have 4 7&4? (Not that I do not like it)
the readings of kiahk are VERY important. each sunday is about an event (our Lord's annunciation or St. John the baptist birth. so all those readings need to be read....the only way is to have 4 sundays of kiahk.
i am not sure of the dates. but today was the 3rd sunday of hatoor, next will be the fourth, and the one after will be kiahk.
the readings of kiahk are VERY important. each sunday is about an event (our Lord's annunciation or St. John the baptist birth. so all those readings need to be read....the only way is to have 4 sundays of kiahk.
Sorry to bother you, but another question: Why is that the rites of the church change during every fast except for the Nativity fast? (the two weeks of Hatour really, since the rites are changed for kiahk during the rest of the fast)
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=13932.msg161462#msg161462 date=1353892592]
i am not sure of the dates. but today was the 3rd sunday of hatoor, next will be the fourth, and the one after will be kiahk.
the readings of kiahk are VERY important. each sunday is about an event (our Lord's annunciation or St. John the baptist birth. so all those readings need to be read....the only way is to have 4 sundays of kiahk.
Sorry to bother you, but another question: Why is that the rites of the church change during every fast except for the Nativity fast? (the two weeks of Hatour really, since the rites are changed for kiahk during the rest of the fast)
I really don't know. I have been hoping to get an answer from someone here.....but havn't seen one yet.
Now all I have to do is find Ibn Kabar to validate my theory. Maybe someone else who has better Arabic comprehension can look it up for us.
I have to check into it and do some research. But I think the reason the hymns and rites don't change from the beginning of the fast is because nearly all fasts are 40 days or more, not 29 days (with the exception of St Mary's fast and Apostles fast). 40 days has importance because our Savior fasted 40 days, as did Moses and Elijah and others. To the best of my knowledge, no one has fasted 29 or 30 days in the Bible. I think the fast came first and it was 40 days (with 3 days added for Mokattam later) and the Church created the readings and themes to focus on St Mary for the entire month of Kiahk (technically 29 days but you get the idea). I guess they could have made the entire 40 days focused on St Mary but since the Nativity fell on the 29th and the calendar is 30 days, they simply made 30 days for the rite.
Now all I have to do is find Ibn Kabar to validate my theory. Maybe someone else who has better Arabic comprehension can look it up for us.
Even if that is true, I would think that the church that created all the complex readings/hymns/rites would create another rite for that period of the fast.
This is as good of a response as I got though.
For example, we do celebrate the feast of the cross during Lent. However, we do change the melody connected to the feast but still observe Lent. The same is true for Lazarus and the feast of Shaaneen.
Hope this helps.
The melody used in kiahk commence only in kiahk and is connected to kiahk and not the fast. They revolve around the 4 gospels of kiahk. This is true with all the hymns of the Coptic Church.
For example, we do celebrate the feast of the cross during Lent. However, we do change the melody connected to the feast but still observe Lent. The same is true for Lazarus and the feast of Shaaneen.
Hope this helps.
Well, let me rephrase my question. If the melody and hymns are for kiahk and not the fast, then why is it that the nativity fast is the only fast in our church that does not have a change in rites?
I think the fast came first and it was 40 days (with 3 days added for Mokattam later)
As a side note, Fr Shenouda Maher says that this theory that the 3 days were added for Mokattam is quite unlikely.
http://www.copticworld.org/articles/1456/
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13932.msg161524#msg161524 date=1354075123]
The melody used in kiahk commence only in kiahk and is connected to kiahk and not the fast. They revolve around the 4 gospels of kiahk. This is true with all the hymns of the Coptic Church.
For example, we do celebrate the feast of the cross during Lent. However, we do changes the melody connected to the feast but still observe Lent. The same is true for Lazarus and the feast of Shaaneen.
Hope this helps.
Well, let me rephrase my question. If the melody and hymns are for kiahk and not the fast, then why is it that the nativity fast is the only fast in our church that does not have a change in rites?
I am not sure what you mean. The only fast that has a change of rites is the Lent. The tune change in kiahk is because the annunciation of archabgel Ghabriel starts in kiahk; melody connected to the gospels.
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=13932.msg161526#msg161526 date=1354077504]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13932.msg161524#msg161524 date=1354075123]
The melody used in kiahk commence only in kiahk and is connected to kiahk and not the fast. They revolve around the 4 gospels of kiahk. This is true with all the hymns of the Coptic Church.
For example, we do celebrate the feast of the cross during Lent. However, we do changes the melody connected to the feast but still observe Lent. The same is true for Lazarus and the feast of Shaaneen.
Hope this helps.
Well, let me rephrase my question. If the melody and hymns are for kiahk and not the fast, then why is it that the nativity fast is the only fast in our church that does not have a change in rites?
I am not sure what you mean. The only fast that has a change of rites is the Lent. The tune change in kiahk is because the annunciation of archabgel Ghabriel starts in kiahk; melody connected to the gospels.
Sorry, let me clarify. I did not mean change in rites as in the rites, but as in the hymns in the liturgy: the Gospel response ...etc
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13932.msg161531#msg161531 date=1354087389]
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=13932.msg161526#msg161526 date=1354077504]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13932.msg161524#msg161524 date=1354075123]
The melody used in kiahk commence only in kiahk and is connected to kiahk and not the fast. They revolve around the 4 gospels of kiahk. This is true with all the hymns of the Coptic Church.
For example, we do celebrate the feast of the cross during Lent. However, we do changes the melody connected to the feast but still observe Lent. The same is true for Lazarus and the feast of Shaaneen.
Hope this helps.
Well, let me rephrase my question. If the melody and hymns are for kiahk and not the fast, then why is it that the nativity fast is the only fast in our church that does not have a change in rites?
I am not sure what you mean. The only fast that has a change of rites is the Lent. The tune change in kiahk is because the annunciation of archabgel Ghabriel starts in kiahk; melody connected to the gospels.
Sorry, let me clarify. I did not mean change in rites as in the rites, but as in the hymns in the liturgy: the Gospel response ...etc
The rule is that hymns follow the gospel. That is why we have a response for each Sunday gospel ( they are not in use today) and most of the weekdays gospels.
It happened that the responses for kiahk are still in use (thanks to Albeir he revived the four different responses for kiahk instead of the two that were in use).
Also, there are different conclusions for each Gospel and weekday and again they are not in use today. That is why you would find some inconsistencies among seasons because one season wis intact and another is not.
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=13932.msg161535#msg161535 date=1354112657]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13932.msg161531#msg161531 date=1354087389]
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=13932.msg161526#msg161526 date=1354077504]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13932.msg161524#msg161524 date=1354075123]
The melody used in kiahk commence only in kiahk and is connected to kiahk and not the fast. They revolve around the 4 gospels of kiahk. This is true with all the hymns of the Coptic Church.
For example, we do celebrate the feast of the cross during Lent. However, we do changes the melody connected to the feast but still observe Lent. The same is true for Lazarus and the feast of Shaaneen.
Hope this helps.
Well, let me rephrase my question. If the melody and hymns are for kiahk and not the fast, then why is it that the nativity fast is the only fast in our church that does not have a change in rites?
I am not sure what you mean. The only fast that has a change of rites is the Lent. The tune change in kiahk is because the annunciation of archabgel Ghabriel starts in kiahk; melody connected to the gospels.
Sorry, let me clarify. I did not mean change in rites as in the rites, but as in the hymns in the liturgy: the Gospel response ...etc
The rule is that hymns follow the gospel. That is why we have a response for each Sunday gospel ( they are not in use today) and most of the weekdays gospels.
It happened that the responses for kiahk are still in use (thanks to Albeir he revived the four different responses for kiahk instead of the two that were in use).
Also, there are different conclusions for each Gospel and weekday and again they are not in use today. That is why you would find some inconsistencies among seasons because one season wis intact and another is not.
Do you know where can I find the text for some of those gospel responses?
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13932.msg161538#msg161538 date=1354133727]
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=13932.msg161535#msg161535 date=1354112657]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13932.msg161531#msg161531 date=1354087389]
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=13932.msg161526#msg161526 date=1354077504]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13932.msg161524#msg161524 date=1354075123]
The melody used in kiahk commence only in kiahk and is connected to kiahk and not the fast. They revolve around the 4 gospels of kiahk. This is true with all the hymns of the Coptic Church.
For example, we do celebrate the feast of the cross during Lent. However, we do changes the melody connected to the feast but still observe Lent. The same is true for Lazarus and the feast of Shaaneen.
Hope this helps.
Well, let me rephrase my question. If the melody and hymns are for kiahk and not the fast, then why is it that the nativity fast is the only fast in our church that does not have a change in rites?
I am not sure what you mean. The only fast that has a change of rites is the Lent. The tune change in kiahk is because the annunciation of archabgel Ghabriel starts in kiahk; melody connected to the gospels.
Sorry, let me clarify. I did not mean change in rites as in the rites, but as in the hymns in the liturgy: the Gospel response ...etc
The rule is that hymns follow the gospel. That is why we have a response for each Sunday gospel ( they are not in use today) and most of the weekdays gospels.
It happened that the responses for kiahk are still in use (thanks to Albeir he revived the four different responses for kiahk instead of the two that were in use).
Also, there are different conclusions for each Gospel and weekday and again they are not in use today. That is why you would find some inconsistencies among seasons because one season wis intact and another is not.
Do you know where can I find the text for some of those gospel responses?
Tarteeb al Bay3aa by Pope Ghabrial ibn Trek
Do you know where can I get a copy?
Unfortunately, I have not found an electronic copy. I got my copy from Maktabat Maree Meena in Shubra, Egypt.
Why do we call it 7&4?
Because we sing the 7 Theotokies (and their maday7 and psalis) and 4 Hoss (with their madaye7).
I have to check into it and do some research. But I think the reason the hymns and rites don't change from the beginning of the fast is because nearly all fasts are 40 days or more, not 29 days (with the exception of St Mary's fast and Apostles fast). 40 days has importance because our Savior fasted 40 days, as did Moses and Elijah and others. To the best of my knowledge, no one has fasted 29 or 30 days in the Bible. I think the fast came first and it was 40 days (with 3 days added for Mokattam later) and the Church created the readings and themes to focus on St Mary for the entire month of Kiahk (technically 29 days but you get the idea). I guess they could have made the entire 40 days focused on St Mary but since the Nativity fell on the 29th and the calendar is 30 days, they simply made 30 days for the rite.
Now all I have to do is find Ibn Kabar to validate my theory. Maybe someone else who has better Arabic comprehension can look it up for us.
Are you sure that the fast came first?
Here some of my observation:
We say Ten nav and Nim ghar up until the end of Hatour. It seems weird to me that we praise the Resurrection during the fast in which we are preparing for the birth of Christ. Same thing with aktonk.
From what I wrote above, it seems to me that fast was established sometime after these rites were established, or it was shorter (i.e it started sometime in the month of Kiahk) and was extended later. Just my 2 cents.
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=13932.msg161542#msg161542 date=1354140456]
Do you know where can I get a copy?
Unfortunately, I have not found an electronic copy. I got my copy from Maktabat Maree Meena in Shubra, Egypt.
hey imikhail....can you give me more details about this book. It's possible that someone can get me a copy from egpyt......please reply asap.
I ALSO, wanted someone to work on a project where we can revive all those responses.....type them up and translate them. I think many of them reflect the on the gospel reading of the day.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13932.msg161543#msg161543 date=1354140852]
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=13932.msg161542#msg161542 date=1354140456]
Do you know where can I get a copy?
Unfortunately, I have not found an electronic copy. I got my copy from Maktabat Maree Meena in Shubra, Egypt.
hey imikhail....can you give me more details about this book. It's possible that someone can get me a copy from egpyt......please reply asap.
I ALSO, wanted someone to work on a project where we can revive all those responses.....type them up and translate them. I think many of them reflect the on the gospel reading of the day.
I was thinking of talking to my priest about reviving them in Coptic or Arabic. If you are going to translate them, I would like to help in anyway I can.
AS SOON AS I GET THE BOOK!!!!
I have a friend in Egypt right now. I will see if he can get the book for me. If he was able to bring it, I will scan the gospel responses pages and send them to you.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=13932.msg161557#msg161557 date=1354148726]
AS SOON AS I GET THE BOOK!!!!
I have a friend in Egypt right now. I will see if he can get the book for me. If he was able to bring it, I will scan the gospel responses pages and send them to you.
i am thinking of the same thing, i have some in egypt now. just waiting for details from imikhail
http://books.google.com/books?id=YDwItwAACAAJ&dq=inauthor:"صموئيل،+(%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A3%D9%86%D8%A8%D8%A7.)%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=X9e3UKaiO43c8ATw6IDgCg&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA
There are few places you can find the book (3 parts), one of them is in shubra and the old batrakhana bookstore.