[quote author=servant33 link=topic=13932.msg161639#msg161639 date=1354418992] Bump. So to check, next Sunday (12/9) ensha allah will be treated as if it is the first week of Kiahk (ie. we do the Kiahk reading, doxologies, and 7&4 on Saturday)? Is this correct?
Yup.
In another note, Remnkemi did you find anything else?
I followed qawe's link to Fr Shenouda's article and I think it is accurate. The fast started with one day (Paramoune) by Pope Benjamin and became 2 days by the 10th century (3 for leap year). (I have not found any reference to corroborate this from Bishop Severus al Muqaffa). Pope Christodolos officially started the rite and fasting as we know on Hatour 16 to Kiahk 29. This month and half fast was to commemorate/emulate the Virgin herself who fasted in the last month and half of her pregnancy. I have not been able to corroborate any local tradition that stated St Mary fasted during her pregnancy. It could well be a local tradition adopted by Pope Christodolos that lost popularity. It make sense that St Mary fasted the last 40 days of her pregnancy, given what we know of St Mary from the Gospels.
It follows that the Paramone was established first for 2 days prior to the 10th century then Pope Christodolos added a 40 day fast emulating and honoring the Virgin. This gives us 42 days normally for the feast (from Hatur 16 to Kiahk 29) and 43 days (if the Paramone falls on a Saturday or Sunday). This kind of corroborates my hypothesis that no one establishes or fasts for 30 days. 40 days is the "golden standard". I simply attributed the remaining 2 or 3 days to Mokattam (as did Bishop Basilios in the Coptic Encyclopedia and many other modern writers). But given the additional information Fr Shenouda presented from Ibn Saba, Ibn Kabar, Ibn al Assal, Pope Christodolos, it is more historically accurate to believe this theory for the 2-3 Paramone days, then the Mokattam miracle.
This doesn't answer your original question, per se. We still don't know when the Kiahk rite was initiated and why 30 days are used instead of 42/43. In all probability, a much later, local tradition of 30 days became more popular than Pope Christodolus' reasons for 42 days. As far as I can tell, we have no documentation when the 30 day feast came into use. I'll keep looking.
I followed qawe's link to Fr Shenouda's article and I think it is accurate. The fast started with one day (Paramoune) by Pope Benjamin and became 2 days by the 10th century (3 for leap year). (I have not found any reference to corroborate this from Bishop Severus al Muqaffa). Pope Christodolos officially started the rite and fasting as we know on Hatour 16 to Kiahk 29. This month and half fast was to commemorate/emulate the Virgin herself who fasted in the last month and half of her pregnancy. I have not been able to corroborate any local tradition that stated St Mary fasted during her pregnancy. It could well be a local tradition adopted by Pope Christodolos that lost popularity. It make sense that St Mary fasted the last 40 days of her pregnancy, given what we know of St Mary from the Gospels.
It follows that the Paramone was established first for 2 days prior to the 10th century then Pope Christodolos added a 40 day fast emulating and honoring the Virgin. This gives us 42 days normally for the feast (from Hatur 16 to Kiahk 29) and 43 days (if the Paramone falls on a Saturday or Sunday). This kind of corroborates my hypothesis that no one establishes or fasts for 30 days. 40 days is the "golden standard". I simply attributed the remaining 2 or 3 days to Mokattam (as did Bishop Basilios in the Coptic Encyclopedia and many other modern writers). But given the additional information Fr Shenouda presented from Ibn Saba, Ibn Kabar, Ibn al Assal, Pope Christodolos, it is more historically accurate to believe this theory for the 2-3 Paramone days, then the Mokattam miracle.
This doesn't answer your original question, per se. We still don't know when the Kiahk rite was initiated and why 30 days are used instead of 42/43. In all probability, a much later, local tradition of 30 days became more popular than Pope Christodolus' reasons for 42 days. As far as I can tell, we have no documentation when the 30 day feast came into use. I'll keep looking.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=13932.msg161553#msg161553 date=1354147017] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13932.msg161543#msg161543 date=1354140852] [quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=13932.msg161542#msg161542 date=1354140456] Do you know where can I get a copy?
Unfortunately, I have not found an electronic copy. I got my copy from Maktabat Maree Meena in Shubra, Egypt.
hey imikhail....can you give me more details about this book. It's possible that someone can get me a copy from egpyt......please reply asap.
I ALSO, wanted someone to work on a project where we can revive all those responses.....type them up and translate them. I think many of them reflect the on the gospel reading of the day.
Our church has actually translated these responses and have almost every Sunday in Coptic, English, and Arabic. We use it every Sunday and haven't said Oniatoo in forever!
[quote author=aiernovi link=topic=13932.msg161700#msg161700 date=1354668588] [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=13932.msg161553#msg161553 date=1354147017] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13932.msg161543#msg161543 date=1354140852] [quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=13932.msg161542#msg161542 date=1354140456] Do you know where can I get a copy?
Unfortunately, I have not found an electronic copy. I got my copy from Maktabat Maree Meena in Shubra, Egypt.
hey imikhail....can you give me more details about this book. It's possible that someone can get me a copy from egpyt......please reply asap.
I ALSO, wanted someone to work on a project where we can revive all those responses.....type them up and translate them. I think many of them reflect the on the gospel reading of the day.
Our church has actually translated these responses and have almost every Sunday in Coptic, English, and Arabic. We use it every Sunday and haven't said Oniatoo in forever!
I would love to have these online for everyone......can you get me in contact to whoever is in charge of this?
[quote author=aiernovi link=topic=13932.msg161700#msg161700 date=1354668588] [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=13932.msg161553#msg161553 date=1354147017] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13932.msg161543#msg161543 date=1354140852] [quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=13932.msg161542#msg161542 date=1354140456] Do you know where can I get a copy?
Unfortunately, I have not found an electronic copy. I got my copy from Maktabat Maree Meena in Shubra, Egypt.
hey imikhail....can you give me more details about this book. It's possible that someone can get me a copy from egpyt......please reply asap.
I ALSO, wanted someone to work on a project where we can revive all those responses.....type them up and translate them. I think many of them reflect the on the gospel reading of the day.
Our church has actually translated these responses and have almost every Sunday in Coptic, English, and Arabic. We use it every Sunday and haven't said Oniatoo in forever!
I was just going through old posts, and I found this. I'm not sure if everyone else agrees, but I sorta want those responses. @aiernovi , hopefully you see this. For those of you who don't feel like reading the whole thing, @aiernovi says he has individual gospel responses for each Sunday. This doesn't have too much to do with the initial topic of the post, btw.
Comments
Bump. So to check, next Sunday (12/9) ensha allah will be treated as if it is the first week of Kiahk (ie. we do the Kiahk reading, doxologies, and 7&4 on Saturday)? Is this correct?
Yup.
In another note, Remnkemi did you find anything else?
I followed qawe's link to Fr Shenouda's article and I think it is accurate. The fast started with one day (Paramoune) by Pope Benjamin and became 2 days by the 10th century (3 for leap year). (I have not found any reference to corroborate this from Bishop Severus al Muqaffa). Pope Christodolos officially started the rite and fasting as we know on Hatour 16 to Kiahk 29. This month and half fast was to commemorate/emulate the Virgin herself who fasted in the last month and half of her pregnancy. I have not been able to corroborate any local tradition that stated St Mary fasted during her pregnancy. It could well be a local tradition adopted by Pope Christodolos that lost popularity. It make sense that St Mary fasted the last 40 days of her pregnancy, given what we know of St Mary from the Gospels.
It follows that the Paramone was established first for 2 days prior to the 10th century then Pope Christodolos added a 40 day fast emulating and honoring the Virgin. This gives us 42 days normally for the feast (from Hatur 16 to Kiahk 29) and 43 days (if the Paramone falls on a Saturday or Sunday). This kind of corroborates my hypothesis that no one establishes or fasts for 30 days. 40 days is the "golden standard". I simply attributed the remaining 2 or 3 days to Mokattam (as did Bishop Basilios in the Coptic Encyclopedia and many other modern writers). But given the additional information Fr Shenouda presented from Ibn Saba, Ibn Kabar, Ibn al Assal, Pope Christodolos, it is more historically accurate to believe this theory for the 2-3 Paramone days, then the Mokattam miracle.
This doesn't answer your original question, per se. We still don't know when the Kiahk rite was initiated and why 30 days are used instead of 42/43. In all probability, a much later, local tradition of 30 days became more popular than Pope Christodolus' reasons for 42 days. As far as I can tell, we have no documentation when the 30 day feast came into use. I'll keep looking.
Copticandproud,
I followed qawe's link to Fr Shenouda's article and I think it is accurate. The fast started with one day (Paramoune) by Pope Benjamin and became 2 days by the 10th century (3 for leap year). (I have not found any reference to corroborate this from Bishop Severus al Muqaffa). Pope Christodolos officially started the rite and fasting as we know on Hatour 16 to Kiahk 29. This month and half fast was to commemorate/emulate the Virgin herself who fasted in the last month and half of her pregnancy. I have not been able to corroborate any local tradition that stated St Mary fasted during her pregnancy. It could well be a local tradition adopted by Pope Christodolos that lost popularity. It make sense that St Mary fasted the last 40 days of her pregnancy, given what we know of St Mary from the Gospels.
It follows that the Paramone was established first for 2 days prior to the 10th century then Pope Christodolos added a 40 day fast emulating and honoring the Virgin. This gives us 42 days normally for the feast (from Hatur 16 to Kiahk 29) and 43 days (if the Paramone falls on a Saturday or Sunday). This kind of corroborates my hypothesis that no one establishes or fasts for 30 days. 40 days is the "golden standard". I simply attributed the remaining 2 or 3 days to Mokattam (as did Bishop Basilios in the Coptic Encyclopedia and many other modern writers). But given the additional information Fr Shenouda presented from Ibn Saba, Ibn Kabar, Ibn al Assal, Pope Christodolos, it is more historically accurate to believe this theory for the 2-3 Paramone days, then the Mokattam miracle.
This doesn't answer your original question, per se. We still don't know when the Kiahk rite was initiated and why 30 days are used instead of 42/43. In all probability, a much later, local tradition of 30 days became more popular than Pope Christodolus' reasons for 42 days. As far as I can tell, we have no documentation when the 30 day feast came into use. I'll keep looking.
Thank you so much for your efforts.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13932.msg161543#msg161543 date=1354140852]
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=13932.msg161542#msg161542 date=1354140456]
Do you know where can I get a copy?
Unfortunately, I have not found an electronic copy. I got my copy from Maktabat Maree Meena in Shubra, Egypt.
hey imikhail....can you give me more details about this book. It's possible that someone can get me a copy from egpyt......please reply asap.
I ALSO, wanted someone to work on a project where we can revive all those responses.....type them up and translate them. I think many of them reflect the on the gospel reading of the day.
Our church has actually translated these responses and have almost every Sunday in Coptic, English, and Arabic. We use it every Sunday and haven't said Oniatoo in forever!
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=13932.msg161553#msg161553 date=1354147017]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13932.msg161543#msg161543 date=1354140852]
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=13932.msg161542#msg161542 date=1354140456]
Do you know where can I get a copy?
Unfortunately, I have not found an electronic copy. I got my copy from Maktabat Maree Meena in Shubra, Egypt.
hey imikhail....can you give me more details about this book. It's possible that someone can get me a copy from egpyt......please reply asap.
I ALSO, wanted someone to work on a project where we can revive all those responses.....type them up and translate them. I think many of them reflect the on the gospel reading of the day.
Our church has actually translated these responses and have almost every Sunday in Coptic, English, and Arabic. We use it every Sunday and haven't said Oniatoo in forever!
I would love to have these online for everyone......can you get me in contact to whoever is in charge of this?
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=13932.msg161553#msg161553 date=1354147017]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13932.msg161543#msg161543 date=1354140852]
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=13932.msg161542#msg161542 date=1354140456]
Do you know where can I get a copy?
Unfortunately, I have not found an electronic copy. I got my copy from Maktabat Maree Meena in Shubra, Egypt.
hey imikhail....can you give me more details about this book. It's possible that someone can get me a copy from egpyt......please reply asap.
I ALSO, wanted someone to work on a project where we can revive all those responses.....type them up and translate them. I think many of them reflect the on the gospel reading of the day.
Our church has actually translated these responses and have almost every Sunday in Coptic, English, and Arabic. We use it every Sunday and haven't said Oniatoo in forever!
Where is your church?
Yes we do have those responses and complied them into a book.
Here's the link to the website if you or anyone you know is interested in ordering Ifahmy:
http://wiscopts.net/store