I am asking about this topic not seeking arguments, but knowledge. Knowledge that I think I will regret knowing, but once I started reading I could not stop... I am, by no mean, as educated as any of you guys, that is why I am asking.
Anyways, without any farther delay, here is my question: How "Orthodox" is our Church/church? I have been reading lately about the "corrupt" popes of our church, (It is a light reading from unreliable sources, but I do not have any better) about Fr. Matta el mesken, about Max Misheal, about our "Deconate" rank, and many other seemingly imperfections. Maybe there is even more that I do not know of. I grew up with an apparently false knowledge that our church has been perfectly orthodox over the years under the protection of the Holy Spirit, but how? How are we under the protection of the Holy spirit and we have "corrupt popes" and all of those seemingly imperfections?
Again, I am as worthless as a rat compared to you guys. I am not asking for argument, but of knowledge. Thank You.
Comments
Pope is a member of the Church.
People are members of the Church.
People can mistakes.
Popes can make mistakes.
Pope does not equal Church.
Pope is a member of the Church.
People are members of the Church.
People can mistakes.
Popes can make mistakes.
but the holy spirit does not and the pope should be filled with holy spirit and the church, also, should be protected by the Holy Spirit, right?
but the holy spirit does not and the pope should be filled with holy spirit and the church, also, should be protected by the Holy Spirit, right?
But he is still a man, a human; part of God's people who have freewill to do anything. The Holy Spirit protects the Church while keeping people right to freewill.
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=13087.msg153694#msg153694 date=1332800561]
but the holy spirit does not and the pope should be filled with holy spirit and the church, also, should be protected by the Holy Spirit, right?
But he is still a man, a human; part of God's people who have freewill to do anything. The Holy Spirit protects the Church while keeping people right to freewill.
I agree. So, I was wrong all along for not worrying about Pope Shenouda's successor and it is very possible that our next pope maybe a corrupt pope?
We don't believe in Papal infallibility, but it's not likely that our Pope will be "corrupt" because the Holy Synod doesn't just choose someone off the street to lead our church.
We all pray that God chooses for us a wise Shepherd, so although we have free will, fasting and prayer, plays a big role too.
The Pope doesn't have "more" Holy Spirit than an ordinary person who was baptized in the church, like you or me. The Holy Spirit doesn't come in portions and doesn't force Itself into peoples' lives. It's a Gift that we try to hold tightly with all our might.
Itself?
So why lay hands? Why ordination? Why all of this rituals and prayers?
[quote author=TITL link=topic=13087.msg153697#msg153697 date=1332801741]
We all pray that God chooses for us a wise Shepherd, so although we have free will, fasting and prayer, plays a big role too.
Well, how does fasting and prayers have a big role, if God's well is going to be fill fulled anyways?
[quote author=JG link=topic=13087.msg153698#msg153698 date=1332801971]
Himself*
The Liturgy books/screens sometimes refer to the Holy Spirit as "It".
Anyways, without any farther delay, here is my question: How "Orthodox" is our Church/church? I have been reading lately about the "corrupt" popes of our church, (It is a light reading from unreliable sources, but I do not have any better) about Fr. Matta el mesken, about Max Misheal, about our "Deconate" rank, and many other seemingly imperfections. Maybe there is even more that I do not know of.
I just want to say something. Much of the views that are expounded all over the place are biased. For example, you mentioned Abouna Matta El Meskeen in your list of "imperfections." While everyone is imperfect, the common view that Abouna Matta is some heretic or something of the sort is extremely biased and ultimately incorrect. There are a lot of things said about him that are either false, or are terrible extrapolations. He, however, often chose not to defend himself against the allegations made against him, making himself an easy target for criticism.
Our church is Oriental Orthodox. The Eastern Orthodox Church has split opinions on us; ranging from "heretics" to "brothers" and crossing "weird." Remember that an unbiased view is often the most correct. The things you hear from within our church are not the only view. In fact, you would be surprised to hear what the EO say about the conflict between Abouna Matta and Pope Shenouda (or you may not be surprised at all.) And the things they say are often incorrect. Its best to stop throwing names and titles around.
In the end, it is only when you begin to search for deeper (not necessarily a better thing) meaning that any of these questions come to play. For example, Abouna Youstos El-Antony lived a saintly life, and never once got involved in the conflict of Theosis, but he made it to heaven safely. Another saintly man, Abouna Matta, decided that he wanted to contemplate Theosis and it became a help to him. You do not need to worry about the differences as long as you choose a spirituality that is simple. The moment you decide to complicate things (again, just like going into deeper meaning is not better than being simple, so complicating things is not necessarily worse than simple-both are good as long as they are guided) then you must make a real decision as to what you believe.
Don't forget that we are human. Pope Shenouda had a good number of falling outs with Pope Cyril. Likewise, Abouna Matta had the same with both. It is natural to disagree. It is important to do so with respect-something we all must learn. A good example of this is Abouna Bishoy Kamel. As he was sick, Pope Shenouda went to visit him. In his room, he noticed many pictures of Pope Shenouda, Pope Cyril and Abouna Matta. He marveled at how he could love them all the same regardless of the disagreements they had between each other. That is the key. We do not need to subscribe to a "camp" and decide what is Orthodox and what isn't based on what we read. We should deal with topics as they come.
As you study Theosis, compare the EO, Abouna Matta, and Pope Shenouda, and then make a decision.
As you study the idea of church and state, compare the ideas of Abouna Matta, Pope Cyril, and Pope Shenouda
I guess what I am trying to say is that these labels of what is Orthodox and what is not often do more harm than good. Peoples names are tarnished (as has been done to both Pope Shenouda and Abouna Matta), and souls are confused ( I know I was.)
The Coptic Orthodox Church as it is today is undoubtedly moving away from Orthopraxis. I think if we open our eyes, we can see much evidence of this. There is a movement of protestant thought and over-sympathy in the church. This upsets me.
PeterA,
I think you are right, and as you said, it takes vigilant labor. I cannot sit by, watch weeds grow, not do much, and expect God to do everything. Nehemiah shows what we need to do to build the church. It is a tough job. In my opinion, it seems that much of the youth are working on this, but the authorities listen little to the pleas of the youth. Also, we cannot preach one thing and practice another.
We need to work on true Orthodoxy. This is not decided by a good pope like H.H. Pope Shenouda or one that brought on corruption (Pope Cyril 3). This is decided by how we employ the faith. Theologians exist, and I am very happy to see a huge movement of Oriental Orthodox youth looking into ecumenism with the EO. This is Orthodoxy. Not the stuff you read.
Am I going to get beat for this? ---> Probably
ReturnOrthodoxy
I just want to say something. Much of the views that are expounded all over the place are biased. For example, you mentioned Abouna Matta El Meskeen in your list of "imperfections." While everyone is imperfect, the common view that Abouna Matta is some heretic or something of the sort is extremely biased and ultimately incorrect. There are a lot of things said about him that are either false, or are terrible extrapolations. He, however, often chose not to defend himself against the allegations made against him, making himself an easy target for criticism.
I knew they were all biased, but as I said I did not have any better resources. Plus, I have not read about this period (Pope Shenouda's house arrest) so I can not decide. BTW is it true that Max Micheal was one of his disciples? and before you scream at me, yes I know him being his disciple does not mean that they agree. Also, does anybody know where does H.E Metropolitan Mikheil stand in all of this? and why did he resign his Abbot role right after Abouna Matta's departure?
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=13087.msg153713#msg153713 date=1332812419]
Remember that an unbiased view is often the most correct. The things you hear from within our church are not the only view. In fact, you would be surprised to hear what the EO say about the conflict between Abouna Matta and Pope Shenouda (or you may not be surprised at all.) And the things they say are often incorrect. Its best to stop throwing names and titles around.
Well, it is really hard to find an unbiased view these days. Everybody seem to put his/her own twist on stuff. I also apologize for throwing names around, but I was just overwhelmed with all the information I read about.
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=13087.msg153713#msg153713 date=1332812419]
In the end, it is only when you begin to search for deeper (not necessarily a better thing) meaning that any of these questions come to play. For example, Abouna Youstos El-Antony lived a saintly life, and never once got involved in the conflict of Theosis, but he made it to heaven safely. Another saintly man, Abouna Matta, decided that he wanted to contemplate Theosis and it became a help to him. You do not need to worry about the differences as long as you choose a spirituality that is simple. The moment you decide to complicate things (again, just like going into deeper meaning is not better than being simple, so complicating things is not necessarily worse than simple-both are good as long as they are guided) then you must make a real decision as to what you believe.
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=13087.msg153688#msg153688 date=1332799199]
Knowledge that I think I will regret knowing, but once I started reading I could not stop...
I knew that knowledge would make me suffer, but human curiosity overwhelmed me and I can not stop now once I started.
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=13087.msg153713#msg153713 date=1332812419]
As you study Theosis, compare the EO, Abouna Matta, and Pope Shenouda, and then make a decision.
As you study the idea of church and state, compare the ideas of Abouna Matta, Pope Cyril, and Pope Shenouda
I am definitely not prepared to compare "theories" about theosis and make a decision on my own. I will definitely need a lot of help. I will try avoiding this topic as much as I can, but I know I will came back for it later...
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=13087.msg153713#msg153713 date=1332812419]
and souls are confused ( I know I was.)
Not more than me!
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=13087.msg153713#msg153713 date=1332812419]
The Coptic Orthodox Church as it is today is undoubtedly moving away from Orthopraxis. I think if we open our eyes, we can see much evidence of this. There is a movement of protestant thought and over-sympathy in the church. This upsets me.
THANK YOU!
Human curiosity gets the best of us. If you ask anyone who knows me, I have sadly become engulfed in it, and it has taken it's toll considerably.
I have personal thoughts on the problem within the church, but I fear that I will be expelled. Thank god that people are starting to realize that we have a problem. Sadly, a few guys "up there" don't want to change their opinions no-matter how much they are told they are wrong. The church is suffering severely because of it. I have suffered severely. My friends have tried to convince me not to give up hope in the Coptic Church to return to Orthodoxy.
Sadly, I think I have...
ReturnOrthodoxy
Amen, return to Orthodoxy! If you do not mind, I would like to know your person thoughts about the church's problems. You can PM if you want.
I would advise against this.
What RO has wisely decided not to post is likely a lot of unedifying (Egyptian) gossip.
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=13087.msg153746#msg153746 date=1332867658]
Amen, return to Orthodoxy! If you do not mind, I would like to know your person thoughts about the church's problems. You can PM if you want.
I would advise against this.
What RO has wisely decided not to post is likely a lot of unedifying (Egyptian) gossip.
Thank you for your advice, but please do not judge the book by its cover. RO is not some random guy that post gossip. Just like most of the guys on here, he proved to be a very trustable source... and I am not an idoit that believes everything that is said to me. Again, thanks for your advice.
baba shenouda wrote some beautiful things that have helped me get closer to God.
they are both now interceding for us before the throne of God; probably hand in hand.
may God reward these dear fathers and give them eternal rest.
let us protect our eyes and ears from foolish gossip (especially that promoted by people who are no longer part of our church) and work harder at getting closer to God.
:)
abouna matta el meskin (matthew the poor) wrote some beautiful things that have helped me get closer to God.
baba shenouda wrote some beautiful things that have helped me get closer to God.
they are both now interceding for us before the throne of God; probably hand in hand.
may God reward these dear fathers and give them eternal rest.
let us protect our eyes and ears from foolish gossip (especially that promoted by people who are no longer part of our church) and work harder at getting closer to God.
:)
Exactly. We must have respect for all our fathers regardless of the gossip. Both intercede for us now.
ReturnOrthodoxy
Fasting and prayer means we're submitting our will to God's will, making them both one.
[quote author=JG link=topic=13087.msg153698#msg153698 date=1332801971]
Himself*
The Liturgy books/screens sometimes refer to the Holy Spirit as "It".
The Holy Spirit is a PERSON of the Trinity. He is not an "It." This is a false teaching. St. Basil dedicated his time to write a whole book on this topic.
Thank you Copticandproud for your support. Qawe, Egyptian gossip is when someone makes assumptions without base and expounds them publicly. It seems that you made an assumption about me(an assumption which I cannot see how you arrived at seeing as I rarely speak without sources), and then expounded them publicly. I have great respect for your posts, but it seems that on this specific occasion, you have erred on my part.
Pray for me.
ReturnOrthodoxy
The disagreements were not only the fruit of personal conflict, it had its roots in differing theological convictions that found no middle ground. One group, which prevailed, teaches Christianity as a moral code and ignores the unity between man and God as necessary for salvation. It is found on all levels, starting from Sunday School, and is the most dominant teaching in our Church. Proponents of this teachings, servants, priests and bishops, are not bound by Orthodox teachings, as their moral code can be found in all denominations. This is why you find the books of all Protestant teachers in our churches.
The other group stresses the sacramental theology and the role of deification in salvation, and can only understand the ascension of man to God and the change in his outer behaviour as result of his unity with God and the change of nature of man. Struggle of man on a moral level is only paves the way for the grace of the Spirit, but cannot lead in itself to salvation. They usually refer to the Fathers of the Church.
The historical roots of the problem starts with the formation of the Sunday School movement, which adopted a Protestant curriculum and created a rival system to the liturgical life in the Church, represented in Sunday School classes, which developed into a whole life in the church activities. The generation that shaped the recent past of the Church and will continue to shape its future is the Sunday School generation, from which almost all bishops were selected. Bishops are the highest teaching office in the Church and the true presentation of its character.
The other group is a small, politically insignificant group that is dying out as we speak. They have no presence in the Church on any influential level and cannot relate to the masses who have been fed with the teaching of the Sunday School movement.
This, in my opinion, is the root of the problems that existed between the individuals mentioned.
On a side note:
Max Michel should be excluded from the topic. Nothing good can be attributed to a person who ordains himself as a rival Pope, establishes a rival church and becomes a traitor and agent of an islamic government for his personal glory. He had nothing to do with Father Matta, and the fact that he was a disciple of Pope Shenouda in his youth and the Pope ordained him as a deacon does not relate him to the Pope either.
I may be in love with you. You have the courage to say what I wish could be exclaimed from rooftops, and acknowledged by people. We should find a way to meet up. We think alike.
ReturnOrthodoxy
The other group stresses the sacramental theology and the role of deification in salvation, and can only understand the ascension of man to God and the change in his outer behaviour as result of his unity with God and the change of nature of man. Struggle of man on a moral level is only paves the way for the grace of the Spirit, but cannot lead in itself to salvation. They usually refer to the Fathers of the Church.
I have a question. What is being meant by 'deification'? Many people are throwing the phrase around, and I have come to believe that sometimes they mean different things.
As in, do you mean that we partake in the divinity? Or partaking of the divinity? There is a big difference there. Do you mean partaking in the energies or in the essence of divinity? I think a concrete definition needs to be given to this word in order to avoid future confusion.
-Pray for me
ReturnOrthodoxy
I think HGBY gives great answers to this here.
ReturnOrthodoxy
I thought he was supposedly a member of the "Sunday School" side?
What a waste of time this site has become! Everything turns into a debate, and no real discussion can take place. I am disgusted at it. What kind of example are we setting? Should I not have an opinion because it differs from the norm? Why is everything I say somehow put into jeopardy because someone else wants to go ahead, and have people' names involved?
Come on...Can we just grow up.
My last post until Easter. Then I'll decide if I ever come back to this site again.
Orthodoxy OUT!
[quote author=Stavro link=topic=13087.msg153907#msg153907 date=1333075110]
One group, which prevailed, teaches Christianity as a moral code and ignores the unity between man and God as necessary for salvation.
The other group stresses the sacramental theology and the role of deification in salvation.
The other group is a small, politically insignificant group that is dying out as we speak.
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=13087.msg153908#msg153908 date=1333076684]
You have the courage to say what I wish could be exclaimed from rooftops, and acknowledged by people.
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=13087.msg153915#msg153915 date=1333085469]
I think HGBY gives great answers to this [deification] here.
ReturnOrthodoxy
Of course it is not appropriate to throw names around like that, however I was doing it to show my annoyance at Stavro's post which you seconded.
It was not the right way to discuss it, however, in the past I too have been demoralized by this site, and knew that I would get a similar response if I expressed my opinions in the way both you and I agree they should be expressed.
My qualm with this sort of post by Stavro, on a broad level, is that it is very unedifying.
It's basically saying most of the bishops these days are misguided and Protestant.
If you cannot see the problem with sharing this very cynical argument with the whole world, then...
In regard to you leaving this site, I'm sorry that I have made you feel this way.
I'm not speaking about sides. I'm not putting names of people nor do I dream of it. If you knew me in the slightest, you would know that of the people who love HGBY, I am a fanatic about him. My Facebook is full of pictures of him. I think it rather sad that you would make such a comment. Stop with this craziness. My opinions are free from who did what, and who says what. It is you who decided to classify him as "Sunday School movement."
What a waste of time this site has become! Everything turns into a debate, and no real discussion can take place. I am disgusted at it. What kind of example are we setting? Should I not have an opinion because it differs from the norm? Why is everything I say somehow put into jeopardy because someone else wants to go ahead, and have people' names involved?
Come on...Can we just grow up.
My last post until Easter. Then I'll decide if I ever come back to this site again.
Orthodoxy OUT!
If you look up the statistics on this site, I am the third or fourth poster on this site. I fell in and out with this site numerous times. First, it began to lose its meaning and people were asking really useless questions. Then, like you describe above, people argue instead of maturely debating an issue. Many times I simply read without getting involved. Relax, the issue is not as serious as you feel about it :D. Remember this is just a forum. I really hope you do come back though :)