You talk about how much of a waste of time this site has become, and yet you waste other people's time by writing a long winded post flaming about the site. If you don't like it here, then simply leave. Nobody is forcing you to stay and nobody is forcing you to leave. You are the maker of your own decisions. People will continue to benefit from the site with or without you here and nothing will change. So do you what you want to do, but don't come here to flame, if you have a problem with a member then give a pm.
[quote author=geomike link=topic=13087.msg153945#msg153945 date=1333154022] You talk about how much of a waste of time this site has become, and yet you waste other people's time by writing a long winded post flaming about the site. If you don't like it here, then simply leave. Nobody is forcing you to stay and nobody is forcing you to leave. You are the maker of your own decisions. People will continue to benefit from the site with or without you here and nothing will change. So do you what you want to do, but don't come here to flame, if you have a problem with a member then give a pm.
Perhaps the reason why people are falling out of this site is because people aren't treating each other with the heavenly love that we should offer each other. Forgive me, but this is all I've seen. If God told each and every one of us "If you don't like me, leave" then we'd all be going straight to hell. Not that we don't love Him, but because He is the one to brings us back to Him even when we fall out.
If we are discussing something, it is for our own edification. It is not so that I should prove myself right or prove someone else wrong. The moment it becomes that, we have lost the point. It is so that I LEARN and better myself. It is notable to say that if I learn while I cause hurt or offense to someone else, it is better that I not learn.
[quote author=Christ4Life link=topic=13087.msg153951#msg153951 date=1333155091] [quote author=geomike link=topic=13087.msg153945#msg153945 date=1333154022] You talk about how much of a waste of time this site has become, and yet you waste other people's time by writing a long winded post flaming about the site. If you don't like it here, then simply leave. Nobody is forcing you to stay and nobody is forcing you to leave. You are the maker of your own decisions. People will continue to benefit from the site with or without you here and nothing will change. So do you what you want to do, but don't come here to flame, if you have a problem with a member then give a pm.
Perhaps the reason why people are falling out of this site is because people aren't treating each other with the heavenly love that we should offer each other. Forgive me, but this is all I've seen. If God told each and every one of us "If you don't like me, leave" then we'd all be going straight to hell. Not that we don't love Him, but because He is the one to brings us back to Him even when we fall out.
If we are discussing something, it is for our own edification. It is not so that I should prove myself right or prove someone else wrong. The moment it becomes that, we have lost the point. It is so that I LEARN and better myself. It is notable to say that if I learn while I cause hurt or offense to someone else, it is better that I not learn.
I apologize to you, ReturnOrthodoxy.
What you said is very true, but the reason all this is happening is because somebody got upset that his point is being taken out of context and in reaction instead of just saying that it was taken out of context he decided to be immature about it and start ranting and raging. I am personally sick of it. Every two or three months we have to deal with somebody threatening to leave the site. All i am saying is, that if you want to leave just leave, your threat isn't adding anything to your rant and isn't adding to your "persuasiveness". We don't need to sugar-coat anything, it's very simple, if you don't like it then leave. If your post was taken out of context then you can just simply state that it was taken out of context and elaborate on the statement that was confused and that's it.
@Father Peter: Please do what you will with this thread because as all these threads are they get out of control and are a pointless display of immature rhetoric.
It seems that my harsh words of rebuke were taken as a personal attack so I hear by apologize even though the words weren't meant to hurt but a long version of the phrase "Man up". Life is like that, people twist your words, sometimes intentionally and sometimes accidently, but either way a simple elaboration will do instead of empty threats. That's all i have to add this thread, and next time instead of trying to solve senseless problems here, i will let the moderators do their job because in the end you get burned for having good intentions.
I may be in love with you. You have the courage to say what I wish could be exclaimed from rooftops, and acknowledged by people. We should find a way to meet up. We think alike.
ReturnOrthodoxy
Thank you for your kind words. It would be a pleasure to meet with you in person and learn from you.
Pope is a title of respect not one of power. The patriarch of our church does have certain authority but without consent from the other bishops is essentially powerless. The Coptic Church is unique in that it has always had a patriarch, although it was later on that this term was actually used. Another wonderful thing about the Coptic Patriarch is that it has been fairly well documented. While the Coptic church was relatively small and much of it is not known prior to Clement we still have quite a bit of reliable sources that attest to the apostolic succession of the Coptic Patriarch.
If you have any specific questions on one of our earlier patriarchs (St. Theophilus, St Cyril, etc.) please feel free to ask. I know those two specifically seem to draw a lot of unwarranted criticisms.
Next is a list that I have compiled, with the appropriate sources, of our patriarchs from St. Mark to the late Pope Shenouda III. I hope this may help answer some questions as I have included the false patriarchs not accepted by our church.
Mark the Evangelist (43–68) Anianus (68–82) Avilius (83–95) Kedron (96–106) Primus (106–118) Justus (118–129) Eumenes (131–141) Markianos (142–152) Celadion (152–166) Agrippinus (167–178) Julian (178–189) Demetrius I (189–232) Heraclas (232–248) Dionysius (248–264) Maximus (265–282) Theonas (282–300) Peter I (300–311) Achillas (312–313) Alexander I (313–326) First ecumenical Council occurred vacant (326–328) Athanasius I (328–339) Served as a Deacon for the First Council; became Pope of Alexandria Gregory of Cappadocia (339–346), Arian Patriarch; not accepted by the adherents of the Nicene creed (and thus not counted by Coptic Orthodox, Byzantine Orthodox or Catholic lineages). Athanasius I (346–373) Peter II (373–380) Lucius of Alexandria (373–377), an Arian installed by the Emperor and not recognized by the adherents of the Nicene Creed Timothy I (380–385) Second Ecumenical Council occurred Theophilus I (385–412) Cyril I (412–444) Third Ecumenical Council occurred Dioscorus I (444–454) Fourth Ecumenical Council occurred/Schism between Oriental Orthodoxy and Eastern Orthodoxy vacant (454–457) Timothy II Aelurus (457–477) Peter III Mongus (477–490) Athanasius II (490–496) John I (496–505) John II (505–516) Dioscorus II (516–517) Timothy III (517–535) Theodosius I (535–567) Peter IV (567–569) Damian (569–605) Anastasius (605–616) Andronicus (616–622) Benjamin I (622–661) Islam entered Egypt Agatho (661–677) John III (677–688) Isaac (688–689) Simeon I (689–701) Alexander II (702–729) Cosmas I (729–730) Theodosius II (730–742) Michael I (743–767) Mina I (767–775) John IV (776–799) Mark II (799–819) Jacob (819–830) Simeon II (830) Joseph I (831–849) Michael II (849–851) Cosmas II (851–858) Shenouda I (859–880) Michael III (880–907) vacant (907–910) Gabriel I (910–921) Cosmas III (921–933) Macarius I (933–953) Theophilus II (953–956) Mina II (956–974) Abraham (975–978) Philotheos (979–1003) Zacharias (1004–1032) Shenouda II (1032–1046) Christodolos (1047–1077) Cyril II (1078–1092) Michael IV (1092–1102) Macarius II (1102–1131) Gabriel II (1131–1145) Michael V (1145–1146) John V (1147–1166) Mark III (1166–1189) John VI (1189–1216)vacant (1216–1235) Cyril III (1235–1243)vacant (1243–1250) Athanasius III (1250–1261) John VII (1262–1268) Gabriel III (1268–1270) John VII (restored) (1270–1293) Theodosius III (1293–1300) John VIII (1300–1320) John IX (1320–1327) Benjamin II (1327–1339) Peter V (1340–1348) Mark IV (1348–1363) John X (1363–1369) Gabriel IV (1370–1378) Matthew I (1378–1408) Gabriel V (1408–1427) John XI (1427–1452) Matthew II (1453–1466) Gabriel VI (1466–1475) Michael VI (1475–1477) John XII (1480–1483) John XIII (1483–1524)vacant (1524–1526) Gabriel VII (1526–1569)vacant (1569–1573) John XIV (1573–1589) Gabriel VIII (1587–1603)vacant (1603–1610) Mark V (1610–1621) John XV (1621–1631) Matthew III (1631–1645) Mark VI (1645–1660) Matthew IV (1660–1676) John XVI (1676–1718) Peter VI (1718–1726) John XVII (1727–1745) Mark VII (1745–1769) John XVIII (1769–1796) Mark VIII (1797–1810) Peter VII (1810–1852)vacant (1852–1854) Cyril IV (1854–1861) Demetrius II (1862–1870)vacant (1870–1874) Cyril V (1874–1927) John XIX (1928–1942)vacant (1942–1944) Macarius III (1944–1945)vacant (1945–1946) Joseph II (1946–1956)vacant (1956–1959) Cyril VI (1959–1971) Shenouda III (1971-2012)
References: The Early Coptic Papacy: The Egyptian Church and Its Leadership in Late Antiquity (Popes of Egypt) by Stephen J. Davis Two Thousand Years of Coptic Christianity by Otto Meinardus An Index to the History of the Patriarchs of the Coptic Church by Lola Atiya History of the Patriarchs of the Coptic Church of Alexandria (Patrologia orientalis) by Sāwīrus ibn al-Muqaffa <-- name may be spelled wrong The Coptic Papacy in Islamic Egypt: The Popes of Egypt: A History of the Coptic Church and Its Patriarchs Volume 2 by Mark Swanson
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=13087.msg154061#msg154061 date=1333382541] Pope is a title of respect not one of power. The patriarch of our church does have certain authority but without consent from the other bishops is essentially powerless. The Coptic Church is unique in that it has always had a patriarch, although it was later on that this term was actually used. Another wonderful thing about the Coptic Patriarch is that it has been fairly well documented. While the Coptic church was relatively small and much of it is not known prior to Clement we still have quite a bit of reliable sources that attest to the apostolic succession of the Coptic Patriarch.
If you have any specific questions on one of our earlier patriarchs (St. Theophilus, St Cyril, etc.) please feel free to ask. I know those two specifically seem to draw a lot of unwarranted criticisms.
Next is a list that I have compiled, with the appropriate sources, of our patriarchs from St. Mark to the late Pope Shenouda III. I hope this may help answer some questions as I have included the false patriarchs not accepted by our church.
Mark the Evangelist (43–68) Anianus (68–82) Avilius (83–95) Kedron (96–106) Primus (106–118) Justus (118–129) Eumenes (131–141) Markianos (142–152) Celadion (152–166) Agrippinus (167–178) Julian (178–189) Demetrius I (189–232) Heraclas (232–248) Dionysius (248–264) Maximus (265–282) Theonas (282–300) Peter I (300–311) Achillas (312–313) Alexander I (313–326) First ecumenical Council occurred vacant (326–328) Athanasius I (328–339) Served as a Deacon for the First Council; became Pope of Alexandria Gregory of Cappadocia (339–346), Arian Patriarch; not accepted by the adherents of the Nicene creed (and thus not counted by Coptic Orthodox, Byzantine Orthodox or Catholic lineages). Athanasius I (346–373) Peter II (373–380) Lucius of Alexandria (373–377), an Arian installed by the Emperor and not recognized by the adherents of the Nicene Creed Timothy I (380–385) Second Ecumenical Council occurred Theophilus I (385–412) Cyril I (412–444) Third Ecumenical Council occurred Dioscorus I (444–454) Fourth Ecumenical Council occurred/Schism between Oriental Orthodoxy and Eastern Orthodoxy vacant (454–457) Timothy II Aelurus (457–477) Peter III Mongus (477–490) Athanasius II (490–496) John I (496–505) John II (505–516) Dioscorus II (516–517) Timothy III (517–535) Theodosius I (535–567) Peter IV (567–569) Damian (569–605) Anastasius (605–616) Andronicus (616–622) Benjamin I (622–661) Islam entered Egypt Agatho (661–677) John III (677–688) Isaac (688–689) Simeon I (689–701) Alexander II (702–729) Cosmas I (729–730) Theodosius II (730–742) Michael I (743–767) Mina I (767–775) John IV (776–799) Mark II (799–819) Jacob (819–830) Simeon II (830) Joseph I (831–849) Michael II (849–851) Cosmas II (851–858) Shenouda I (859–880) Michael III (880–907) vacant (907–910) Gabriel I (910–921) Cosmas III (921–933) Macarius I (933–953) Theophilus II (953–956) Mina II (956–974) Abraham (975–978) Philotheos (979–1003) Zacharias (1004–1032) Shenouda II (1032–1046) Christodolos (1047–1077) Cyril II (1078–1092) Michael IV (1092–1102) Macarius II (1102–1131) Gabriel II (1131–1145) Michael V (1145–1146) John V (1147–1166) Mark III (1166–1189) John VI (1189–1216)vacant (1216–1235) Cyril III (1235–1243)vacant (1243–1250) Athanasius III (1250–1261) John VII (1262–1268) Gabriel III (1268–1270) John VII (restored) (1270–1293) Theodosius III (1293–1300) John VIII (1300–1320) John IX (1320–1327) Benjamin II (1327–1339) Peter V (1340–1348) Mark IV (1348–1363) John X (1363–1369) Gabriel IV (1370–1378) Matthew I (1378–1408) Gabriel V (1408–1427) John XI (1427–1452) Matthew II (1453–1466) Gabriel VI (1466–1475) Michael VI (1475–1477) John XII (1480–1483) John XIII (1483–1524)vacant (1524–1526) Gabriel VII (1526–1569)vacant (1569–1573) John XIV (1573–1589) Gabriel VIII (1587–1603)vacant (1603–1610) Mark V (1610–1621) John XV (1621–1631) Matthew III (1631–1645) Mark VI (1645–1660) Matthew IV (1660–1676) John XVI (1676–1718) Peter VI (1718–1726) John XVII (1727–1745) Mark VII (1745–1769) John XVIII (1769–1796) Mark VIII (1797–1810) Peter VII (1810–1852)vacant (1852–1854) Cyril IV (1854–1861) Demetrius II (1862–1870)vacant (1870–1874) Cyril V (1874–1927) John XIX (1928–1942)vacant (1942–1944) Macarius III (1944–1945)vacant (1945–1946) Joseph II (1946–1956)vacant (1956–1959) Cyril VI (1959–1971) Shenouda III (1971-2012)
References: The Early Coptic Papacy: The Egyptian Church and Its Leadership in Late Antiquity (Popes of Egypt) by Stephen J. Davis Two Thousand Years of Coptic Christianity by Otto Meinardus An Index to the History of the Patriarchs of the Coptic Church by Lola Atiya History of the Patriarchs of the Coptic Church of Alexandria (Patrologia orientalis) by Sāwīrus ibn al-Muqaffa <-- name may be spelled wrong The Coptic Papacy in Islamic Egypt: The Popes of Egypt: A History of the Coptic Church and Its Patriarchs Volume 2 by Mark Swanson
Thanks for the list. I do not have any specific questions, but if there is a source that has a little something about each one of them I would like to read it.
That may be difficult to get something on each individual patriarch. I think the most information we may have on them is in the Synaxarium, and not all of them are even in it. It would be nice to know about each of our patriarchs but I am not sure that is a possibility.
the best source i have seen is 'the story of the copts' by iris habib al masri, published by the middle east council of churches in 1978. u may find one in yr church library or the library of an old person in yr church (if it is out of print). i don't know of any online versions. i just finished reading it (over 500 pages) and it is a brilliant summary of nearly 2000 years of our church's history.
[quote author=mabsoota link=topic=13087.msg154085#msg154085 date=1333402828] the best source i have seen is 'the story of the copts' by iris habib al masri, published by the middle east council of churches in 1978. u may find one in yr church library or the library of an old person in yr church (if it is out of print). i don't know of any online versions. i just finished reading it (over 500 pages) and it is a brilliant summary of nearly 2000 years of our church's history.
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=13087.msg154081#msg154081 date=1333401393] That may be difficult to get something on each individual patriarch. I think the most information we may have on them is in the Synaxarium, and not all of them are even in it. It would be nice to know about each of our patriarchs but I am not sure that is a possibility.
Father Menasah Youhana (reposed at age 29 in the late 1920's), has written in my opinion the best documentation of the history of the Coptic Orthodox Church, century by century, Patriarch by Patriarch, in his book "The history of the Coptic Church". For the history prior to the 11 century, he relied on Bishop Severus Ibn El-Mukafa3 book "History of the Patriarchs". After the 11th century, Father Menasah collected the history of the Church and the Patriarchs from manuscripts in the monasteries, coptic museum, coptic libraries in old churches.
It is written in a neutral tone, although the author himself was a true lover of the Coptic Orthodox Church, yet as a historian he did not allow himself to make any sentimental judgements regarding controversies.
And in case anybody is interested, it is not in English as far as I know.
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=13087.msg153713#msg153713 date=1332812419] We need to work on true Orthodoxy. This is not decided by a good pope like H.H. Pope Shenouda or one that brought on corruption (Pope Cyril 3)....
Am I going to get beat for this? ---> Probably
ReturnOrthodoxy
Since you expected a beating, I feel obliged to give you one. ;) Just kidding.
I agree with you that we should not place labels. But I find it strange that you ended your nice message placing a label on Pope Cyril III. I know Pope Cyril III has come down in history tarnished by corruption. It's ironic. Along with Pope Gabriel VIII IBn Turiyak, Pope Cyril III Ibn Laqlaq wrote lots of canons condemning corrupt behavior.
I know I said that I wouldn't respond, but because I feel a deep sense of respect to Remnkemi, I will say something.
You are more than correct, Rem. I was wrong in speaking against Pope Cyril. I should have followed my own advice and not place labels. I guess what I meant to say was that during Pope Cyril III's time, there was corruption, and true Orthodoxy is not dependant on these corruptions. I wanted to say that true Orthodoxy stands alone and strong whether supported or opposed. I was, of course, wrong for speaking about a Father like that.
On a side note, do you mind explaining what the common view is, and how it is incorrect with regards to Popes Cyril III and Gabrial VIII?
First of all, I hope you never stop posting because you are very articulate. You ask thought-provoking questions. I personally learned a lot of things researching answers for you and others on this site.
Secondly, I didn't mean to say Pope Cyril III was innocent of corruption. I was merely mentioning that he and Pope Gabriel wrote lots of canons against corruption. They showed great zeal for the Church. I don't know enough about them to address specific corruption.
Nonetheless, returning to the question at hand, defining how "un-Orthodox" a person or a patriarch or even a canon or the entire Coptic Church is not something we are authorized or competent to answer without falling into sin. Suffice it to say, we need only to look at Christ as He is revealed in the Gospel through the Orthodox Church.
I know this is a very general response. When I have some time, I will post follow up questions to specific points.
[quote author=Stavro link=topic=13087.msg154092#msg154092 date=1333405601] [quote author=Ioannes link=topic=13087.msg154081#msg154081 date=1333401393] That may be difficult to get something on each individual patriarch. I think the most information we may have on them is in the Synaxarium, and not all of them are even in it. It would be nice to know about each of our patriarchs but I am not sure that is a possibility.
Father Menasah Youhana (reposed at age 29 in the late 1920's), has written in my opinion the best documentation of the history of the Coptic Orthodox Church, century by century, Patriarch by Patriarch, in his book "The history of the Coptic Church". For the history prior to the 11 century, he relied on Bishop Severus Ibn El-Mukafa3 book "History of the Patriarchs". After the 11th century, Father Menasah collected the history of the Church and the Patriarchs from manuscripts in the monasteries, coptic museum, coptic libraries in old churches.
It is written in a neutral tone, although the author himself was a true lover of the Coptic Orthodox Church, yet as a historian he did not allow himself to make any sentimental judgements regarding controversies.
And in case anybody is interested, it is not in English as far as I know.
I can read Arabic. Is there an online link anywhere?
Comments
You talk about how much of a waste of time this site has become, and yet you waste other people's time by writing a long winded post flaming about the site. If you don't like it here, then simply leave. Nobody is forcing you to stay and nobody is forcing you to leave. You are the maker of your own decisions. People will continue to benefit from the site with or without you here and nothing will change. So do you what you want to do, but don't come here to flame, if you have a problem with a member then give a pm.
Perhaps the reason why people are falling out of this site is because people aren't treating each other with the heavenly love that we should offer each other. Forgive me, but this is all I've seen. If God told each and every one of us "If you don't like me, leave" then we'd all be going straight to hell. Not that we don't love Him, but because He is the one to brings us back to Him even when we fall out.
If we are discussing something, it is for our own edification. It is not so that I should prove myself right or prove someone else wrong. The moment it becomes that, we have lost the point. It is so that I LEARN and better myself. It is notable to say that if I learn while I cause hurt or offense to someone else, it is better that I not learn.
I apologize to you, ReturnOrthodoxy.
[quote author=geomike link=topic=13087.msg153945#msg153945 date=1333154022]
You talk about how much of a waste of time this site has become, and yet you waste other people's time by writing a long winded post flaming about the site. If you don't like it here, then simply leave. Nobody is forcing you to stay and nobody is forcing you to leave. You are the maker of your own decisions. People will continue to benefit from the site with or without you here and nothing will change. So do you what you want to do, but don't come here to flame, if you have a problem with a member then give a pm.
Perhaps the reason why people are falling out of this site is because people aren't treating each other with the heavenly love that we should offer each other. Forgive me, but this is all I've seen. If God told each and every one of us "If you don't like me, leave" then we'd all be going straight to hell. Not that we don't love Him, but because He is the one to brings us back to Him even when we fall out.
If we are discussing something, it is for our own edification. It is not so that I should prove myself right or prove someone else wrong. The moment it becomes that, we have lost the point. It is so that I LEARN and better myself. It is notable to say that if I learn while I cause hurt or offense to someone else, it is better that I not learn.
I apologize to you, ReturnOrthodoxy.
What you said is very true, but the reason all this is happening is because somebody got upset that his point is being taken out of context and in reaction instead of just saying that it was taken out of context he decided to be immature about it and start ranting and raging. I am personally sick of it. Every two or three months we have to deal with somebody threatening to leave the site. All i am saying is, that if you want to leave just leave, your threat isn't adding anything to your rant and isn't adding to your "persuasiveness". We don't need to sugar-coat anything, it's very simple, if you don't like it then leave. If your post was taken out of context then you can just simply state that it was taken out of context and elaborate on the statement that was confused and that's it.
@Father Peter: Please do what you will with this thread because as all these threads are they get out of control and are a pointless display of immature rhetoric.
If you have any specific questions on one of our earlier patriarchs (St. Theophilus, St Cyril, etc.) please feel free to ask. I know those two specifically seem to draw a lot of unwarranted criticisms.
Next is a list that I have compiled, with the appropriate sources, of our patriarchs from St. Mark to the late Pope Shenouda III. I hope this may help answer some questions as I have included the false patriarchs not accepted by our church.
Mark the Evangelist (43–68)
Anianus (68–82)
Avilius (83–95)
Kedron (96–106)
Primus (106–118)
Justus (118–129)
Eumenes (131–141)
Markianos (142–152)
Celadion (152–166)
Agrippinus (167–178)
Julian (178–189)
Demetrius I (189–232)
Heraclas (232–248)
Dionysius (248–264)
Maximus (265–282)
Theonas (282–300)
Peter I (300–311)
Achillas (312–313)
Alexander I (313–326) First ecumenical Council occurred vacant (326–328)
Athanasius I (328–339) Served as a Deacon for the First Council; became Pope of Alexandria Gregory of Cappadocia (339–346), Arian Patriarch; not accepted by the adherents of the Nicene creed (and thus not counted by Coptic Orthodox, Byzantine Orthodox or Catholic lineages).
Athanasius I (346–373)
Peter II (373–380) Lucius of Alexandria (373–377), an Arian installed by the Emperor and not recognized by the adherents of the Nicene Creed
Timothy I (380–385) Second Ecumenical Council occurred
Theophilus I (385–412)
Cyril I (412–444) Third Ecumenical Council occurred
Dioscorus I (444–454) Fourth Ecumenical Council occurred/Schism between Oriental Orthodoxy and Eastern Orthodoxy vacant (454–457)
Timothy II Aelurus (457–477)
Peter III Mongus (477–490)
Athanasius II (490–496)
John I (496–505)
John II (505–516)
Dioscorus II (516–517)
Timothy III (517–535)
Theodosius I (535–567)
Peter IV (567–569)
Damian (569–605)
Anastasius (605–616)
Andronicus (616–622)
Benjamin I (622–661) Islam entered Egypt
Agatho (661–677)
John III (677–688)
Isaac (688–689)
Simeon I (689–701)
Alexander II (702–729)
Cosmas I (729–730)
Theodosius II (730–742)
Michael I (743–767)
Mina I (767–775)
John IV (776–799)
Mark II (799–819)
Jacob (819–830)
Simeon II (830)
Joseph I (831–849)
Michael II (849–851)
Cosmas II (851–858)
Shenouda I (859–880)
Michael III (880–907) vacant (907–910)
Gabriel I (910–921)
Cosmas III (921–933)
Macarius I (933–953)
Theophilus II (953–956)
Mina II (956–974)
Abraham (975–978)
Philotheos (979–1003)
Zacharias (1004–1032)
Shenouda II (1032–1046)
Christodolos (1047–1077)
Cyril II (1078–1092)
Michael IV (1092–1102)
Macarius II (1102–1131)
Gabriel II (1131–1145)
Michael V (1145–1146)
John V (1147–1166)
Mark III (1166–1189)
John VI (1189–1216)vacant (1216–1235)
Cyril III (1235–1243)vacant (1243–1250)
Athanasius III (1250–1261)
John VII (1262–1268)
Gabriel III (1268–1270) John VII (restored) (1270–1293)
Theodosius III (1293–1300)
John VIII (1300–1320)
John IX (1320–1327)
Benjamin II (1327–1339)
Peter V (1340–1348)
Mark IV (1348–1363)
John X (1363–1369)
Gabriel IV (1370–1378)
Matthew I (1378–1408)
Gabriel V (1408–1427)
John XI (1427–1452)
Matthew II (1453–1466)
Gabriel VI (1466–1475)
Michael VI (1475–1477)
John XII (1480–1483)
John XIII (1483–1524)vacant (1524–1526)
Gabriel VII (1526–1569)vacant (1569–1573)
John XIV (1573–1589)
Gabriel VIII (1587–1603)vacant (1603–1610)
Mark V (1610–1621)
John XV (1621–1631)
Matthew III (1631–1645)
Mark VI (1645–1660)
Matthew IV (1660–1676)
John XVI (1676–1718)
Peter VI (1718–1726)
John XVII (1727–1745)
Mark VII (1745–1769)
John XVIII (1769–1796)
Mark VIII (1797–1810)
Peter VII (1810–1852)vacant (1852–1854)
Cyril IV (1854–1861)
Demetrius II (1862–1870)vacant (1870–1874)
Cyril V (1874–1927)
John XIX (1928–1942)vacant (1942–1944)
Macarius III (1944–1945)vacant (1945–1946)
Joseph II (1946–1956)vacant (1956–1959)
Cyril VI (1959–1971)
Shenouda III (1971-2012)
References: The Early Coptic Papacy: The Egyptian Church and Its Leadership in Late Antiquity (Popes of Egypt) by Stephen J. Davis Two Thousand Years of Coptic Christianity by Otto Meinardus An Index to the History of the Patriarchs of the Coptic Church by Lola Atiya History of the Patriarchs of the Coptic Church of Alexandria (Patrologia orientalis) by Sāwīrus ibn al-Muqaffa <-- name may be spelled wrong The Coptic Papacy in Islamic Egypt: The Popes of Egypt: A History of the Coptic Church and Its Patriarchs Volume 2 by Mark Swanson
Pope is a title of respect not one of power. The patriarch of our church does have certain authority but without consent from the other bishops is essentially powerless. The Coptic Church is unique in that it has always had a patriarch, although it was later on that this term was actually used. Another wonderful thing about the Coptic Patriarch is that it has been fairly well documented. While the Coptic church was relatively small and much of it is not known prior to Clement we still have quite a bit of reliable sources that attest to the apostolic succession of the Coptic Patriarch.
If you have any specific questions on one of our earlier patriarchs (St. Theophilus, St Cyril, etc.) please feel free to ask. I know those two specifically seem to draw a lot of unwarranted criticisms.
Next is a list that I have compiled, with the appropriate sources, of our patriarchs from St. Mark to the late Pope Shenouda III. I hope this may help answer some questions as I have included the false patriarchs not accepted by our church.
Mark the Evangelist (43–68)
Anianus (68–82)
Avilius (83–95)
Kedron (96–106)
Primus (106–118)
Justus (118–129)
Eumenes (131–141)
Markianos (142–152)
Celadion (152–166)
Agrippinus (167–178)
Julian (178–189)
Demetrius I (189–232)
Heraclas (232–248)
Dionysius (248–264)
Maximus (265–282)
Theonas (282–300)
Peter I (300–311)
Achillas (312–313)
Alexander I (313–326) First ecumenical Council occurred vacant (326–328)
Athanasius I (328–339) Served as a Deacon for the First Council; became Pope of Alexandria Gregory of Cappadocia (339–346), Arian Patriarch; not accepted by the adherents of the Nicene creed (and thus not counted by Coptic Orthodox, Byzantine Orthodox or Catholic lineages).
Athanasius I (346–373)
Peter II (373–380) Lucius of Alexandria (373–377), an Arian installed by the Emperor and not recognized by the adherents of the Nicene Creed
Timothy I (380–385) Second Ecumenical Council occurred
Theophilus I (385–412)
Cyril I (412–444) Third Ecumenical Council occurred
Dioscorus I (444–454) Fourth Ecumenical Council occurred/Schism between Oriental Orthodoxy and Eastern Orthodoxy vacant (454–457)
Timothy II Aelurus (457–477)
Peter III Mongus (477–490)
Athanasius II (490–496)
John I (496–505)
John II (505–516)
Dioscorus II (516–517)
Timothy III (517–535)
Theodosius I (535–567)
Peter IV (567–569)
Damian (569–605)
Anastasius (605–616)
Andronicus (616–622)
Benjamin I (622–661) Islam entered Egypt
Agatho (661–677)
John III (677–688)
Isaac (688–689)
Simeon I (689–701)
Alexander II (702–729)
Cosmas I (729–730)
Theodosius II (730–742)
Michael I (743–767)
Mina I (767–775)
John IV (776–799)
Mark II (799–819)
Jacob (819–830)
Simeon II (830)
Joseph I (831–849)
Michael II (849–851)
Cosmas II (851–858)
Shenouda I (859–880)
Michael III (880–907) vacant (907–910)
Gabriel I (910–921)
Cosmas III (921–933)
Macarius I (933–953)
Theophilus II (953–956)
Mina II (956–974)
Abraham (975–978)
Philotheos (979–1003)
Zacharias (1004–1032)
Shenouda II (1032–1046)
Christodolos (1047–1077)
Cyril II (1078–1092)
Michael IV (1092–1102)
Macarius II (1102–1131)
Gabriel II (1131–1145)
Michael V (1145–1146)
John V (1147–1166)
Mark III (1166–1189)
John VI (1189–1216)vacant (1216–1235)
Cyril III (1235–1243)vacant (1243–1250)
Athanasius III (1250–1261)
John VII (1262–1268)
Gabriel III (1268–1270) John VII (restored) (1270–1293)
Theodosius III (1293–1300)
John VIII (1300–1320)
John IX (1320–1327)
Benjamin II (1327–1339)
Peter V (1340–1348)
Mark IV (1348–1363)
John X (1363–1369)
Gabriel IV (1370–1378)
Matthew I (1378–1408)
Gabriel V (1408–1427)
John XI (1427–1452)
Matthew II (1453–1466)
Gabriel VI (1466–1475)
Michael VI (1475–1477)
John XII (1480–1483)
John XIII (1483–1524)vacant (1524–1526)
Gabriel VII (1526–1569)vacant (1569–1573)
John XIV (1573–1589)
Gabriel VIII (1587–1603)vacant (1603–1610)
Mark V (1610–1621)
John XV (1621–1631)
Matthew III (1631–1645)
Mark VI (1645–1660)
Matthew IV (1660–1676)
John XVI (1676–1718)
Peter VI (1718–1726)
John XVII (1727–1745)
Mark VII (1745–1769)
John XVIII (1769–1796)
Mark VIII (1797–1810)
Peter VII (1810–1852)vacant (1852–1854)
Cyril IV (1854–1861)
Demetrius II (1862–1870)vacant (1870–1874)
Cyril V (1874–1927)
John XIX (1928–1942)vacant (1942–1944)
Macarius III (1944–1945)vacant (1945–1946)
Joseph II (1946–1956)vacant (1956–1959)
Cyril VI (1959–1971)
Shenouda III (1971-2012)
References: The Early Coptic Papacy: The Egyptian Church and Its Leadership in Late Antiquity (Popes of Egypt) by Stephen J. Davis Two Thousand Years of Coptic Christianity by Otto Meinardus An Index to the History of the Patriarchs of the Coptic Church by Lola Atiya History of the Patriarchs of the Coptic Church of Alexandria (Patrologia orientalis) by Sāwīrus ibn al-Muqaffa <-- name may be spelled wrong The Coptic Papacy in Islamic Egypt: The Popes of Egypt: A History of the Coptic Church and Its Patriarchs Volume 2 by Mark Swanson
Thanks for the list. I do not have any specific questions, but if there is a source that has a little something about each one of them I would like to read it.
i just finished reading it (over 500 pages) and it is a brilliant summary of nearly 2000 years of our church's history.
the best source i have seen is 'the story of the copts' by iris habib al masri, published by the middle east council of churches in 1978. u may find one in yr church library or the library of an old person in yr church (if it is out of print). i don't know of any online versions.
i just finished reading it (over 500 pages) and it is a brilliant summary of nearly 2000 years of our church's history.
Thanks mabsoota :)
That may be difficult to get something on each individual patriarch. I think the most information we may have on them is in the Synaxarium, and not all of them are even in it. It would be nice to know about each of our patriarchs but I am not sure that is a possibility.
Father Menasah Youhana (reposed at age 29 in the late 1920's), has written in my opinion the best documentation of the history of the Coptic Orthodox Church, century by century, Patriarch by Patriarch, in his book "The history of the Coptic Church". For the history prior to the 11 century, he relied on Bishop Severus Ibn El-Mukafa3 book "History of the Patriarchs". After the 11th century, Father Menasah collected the history of the Church and the Patriarchs from manuscripts in the monasteries, coptic museum, coptic libraries in old churches.
It is written in a neutral tone, although the author himself was a true lover of the Coptic Orthodox Church, yet as a historian he did not allow himself to make any sentimental judgements regarding controversies.
And in case anybody is interested, it is not in English as far as I know.
We need to work on true Orthodoxy. This is not decided by a good pope like H.H. Pope Shenouda or one that brought on corruption (Pope Cyril 3)....
Am I going to get beat for this? ---> Probably
ReturnOrthodoxy
Since you expected a beating, I feel obliged to give you one. ;) Just kidding.
I agree with you that we should not place labels. But I find it strange that you ended your nice message placing a label on Pope Cyril III. I know Pope Cyril III has come down in history tarnished by corruption. It's ironic. Along with Pope Gabriel VIII IBn Turiyak, Pope Cyril III Ibn Laqlaq wrote lots of canons condemning corrupt behavior.
You are more than correct, Rem. I was wrong in speaking against Pope Cyril. I should have followed my own advice and not place labels. I guess what I meant to say was that during Pope Cyril III's time, there was corruption, and true Orthodoxy is not dependant on these corruptions. I wanted to say that true Orthodoxy stands alone and strong whether supported or opposed. I was, of course, wrong for speaking about a Father like that.
On a side note, do you mind explaining what the common view is, and how it is incorrect with regards to Popes Cyril III and Gabrial VIII?
Thanks Rem, and please pray for me.
ReturnOrthodoxy
First of all, I hope you never stop posting because you are very articulate. You ask thought-provoking questions. I personally learned a lot of things researching answers for you and others on this site.
Secondly, I didn't mean to say Pope Cyril III was innocent of corruption. I was merely mentioning that he and Pope Gabriel wrote lots of canons against corruption. They showed great zeal for the Church. I don't know enough about them to address specific corruption.
Nonetheless, returning to the question at hand, defining how "un-Orthodox" a person or a patriarch or even a canon or the entire Coptic Church is not something we are authorized or competent to answer without falling into sin. Suffice it to say, we need only to look at Christ as He is revealed in the Gospel through the Orthodox Church.
I know this is a very general response. When I have some time, I will post follow up questions to specific points.
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=13087.msg154081#msg154081 date=1333401393]
That may be difficult to get something on each individual patriarch. I think the most information we may have on them is in the Synaxarium, and not all of them are even in it. It would be nice to know about each of our patriarchs but I am not sure that is a possibility.
Father Menasah Youhana (reposed at age 29 in the late 1920's), has written in my opinion the best documentation of the history of the Coptic Orthodox Church, century by century, Patriarch by Patriarch, in his book "The history of the Coptic Church". For the history prior to the 11 century, he relied on Bishop Severus Ibn El-Mukafa3 book "History of the Patriarchs". After the 11th century, Father Menasah collected the history of the Church and the Patriarchs from manuscripts in the monasteries, coptic museum, coptic libraries in old churches.
It is written in a neutral tone, although the author himself was a true lover of the Coptic Orthodox Church, yet as a historian he did not allow himself to make any sentimental judgements regarding controversies.
And in case anybody is interested, it is not in English as far as I know.
I can read Arabic. Is there an online link anywhere?