[quote author=jfarag92 link=topic=10823.msg131689#msg131689 date=1298786209] Oh Ionnes, you will love these
That really hurts, I cant stand hearing people insult the church of God because of their ignorance of scripture and history and their love for "there own way" claiming it to be the way Christ intended. Theres a shocking similarity between protestantism and as I would call it, the protestants of the old testament, that is people like Korah Dathan and Abiram, who decided to offer incense to God, saying to Moses and Aaron "Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the Lord is among them". Then they offered incense and God destroyed them.
[quote author=jfarag92 link=topic=10823.msg131689#msg131689 date=1298786209] Oh Ionnes, you will love these
See how angry and frustrated it makes you when you see videos like this! And we are doing the same thing to them. And when all we do is fight and attack each other, the only person who wins is the devil, because we are letting him stir up strife and enmity.
The reason Protestantism is so popular and people are flocking to it is, no not the Protestant's faults, it is ours. We as Orthodox are not teaching others about the beauty of our church. Most people think the only two Christian branches are Protestantism or Catholicism, and many Christians have never even heard of Orthodoxy. Now whose fault is that? Are we to criticize the Protestants for "corrupting" people? Surely it is our fault for not teaching others about the original Christianity or spreading it to others around the world. From the Protestant to Orthodox converts I have met, many express how they were struggling to find the original true Christianity and were so lucky to have found the Orthodox church. Why is this the case? Why do people have to struggle to find us.
As for the youth leaving, we are not doing enough to show the youth how wonderful and rich the Orthodox church is, nor properly catering to their needs - which can be done in a way that does not compromise the Orthodox teaching or tradition. We need to educate the youth and show them why the Orthodox faith is so beautiful -- and how it is not just some thing they do on Sundays because their parents are Egyptian. As for catering to their needs, youth need social interaction and they need easier outlets of worship, before they can mature to accept the fullness of the church. In terms of the church, this means more social activities for the youth (even non-religious activities like playing sports) that create fun and social fellowship with the other Orthodox Christians. As for worship, there are good number of more modern Orthodox songs that can be sung at meetings to supplement the Orthodox tradition. Songs like "Shepherd of my Soul" "To whom shall I go" are easier ways for the youth to worship and grow along side the Orthodox services until God opens their eyes and shows them how much He has blessed us with the church tradition.
I think that if we work on these, as opposed to just pointing fingers at other denominations, we can fully preserve the Orthodox tradition, cater to the youth needs, and spread Orthodoxy to the many who are thirsty for it.
[quote author=servant33 link=topic=10823.msg131716#msg131716 date=1298849154] See how angry and frustrated it makes you when you see videos like this! And we are doing the same thing to them. And when all we do is fight and attack each other, the only person who wins is the devil, because we are letting him stir up strife and enmity.
I disagree that the same blame is to be shared by those who are defending their faith. The Coptic Church did nothing to this man or his church to provoke the insults he presented to the world and was rightly rebuked for.
The reason Protestantism is so popular and people are flocking to it is, no not the Protestant's faults, it is ours. We as Orthodox are not teaching others about the beauty of our church. Most people think the only two Christian branches are Protestantism or Catholicism, and many Christians have never even heard of Orthodoxy. Now whose fault is that? Are we to criticize the Protestants for "corrupting" people?
As I have been in this situation myself, I cannot honestly and sincerely blame Protestants who are born Protestants for believing as they do if they do not know any better (if they do not know the Orthodox Church, and you are right, many don't). I don't think Orthodox who have decided to join the Protestants can be viewed in the same light, though. Surely Orthodoxy is a choice we must make ever single day, right? In the same way that we can choose to do good or do evil because God did not make us to be robots, we can also choose to be Orthodox or not Orthodox.
Surely it is our fault for not teaching others about the original Christianity or spreading it to others around the world. From the Protestant to Orthodox converts I have met, many express how they were struggling to find the original true Christianity and were so lucky to have found the Orthodox church. Why is this the case? Why do people have to struggle to find us.
You have a great point here, I think. So when can I expect you at my doorstep? I want to know when I should put on the tea so that it is hot when you get here.
Seriously, I mean this with no disrespect to you: Everyone recognizes that this is an issue, and posts here on Tasbeha and other places, and some go to Africa or other places to teach people Orthodoxy. That's great. What about you in your own community? Father Peter has things planned for his community. I'd be overjoyed if something similar were to be established in my community, and I bet people in your community would also like it for themselves, if you show them why they should. ;)
As for the youth leaving, we are not doing enough to show the youth how wonderful and rich the Orthodox church is, nor properly catering to their needs - which can be done in a way that does not compromise the Orthodox teaching or tradition. We need to educate the youth and show them why the Orthodox faith is so beautiful -- and how it is not just some thing they do on Sundays because their parents are Egyptian.
I'm sorry but I do not buy this "we haven't taught them enough" business. Certainly everyone could be taught better, so please don't think I am for even a second that I am dismissing that or lessening it. But at the same time, "we didn't teach them well enough" is not going to cut it. Did they fall off the face of the planet? Are they somewhere off on Mars where we cannot reach them and tell them what they need to know? Also, not to make things all about me, but I must point out that no one in the Catholic Church ever taught me about Orthodoxy. Nobody in the Presbyterian Church ever taught me about Orthodoxy. I didn't teach myself about Orthodoxy. I still managed to show up here somehow, and it's not because I'm so great or anything about me. In truth, I only began to learn about Orthodoxy as the true way by trying to learn andpractice it, as best as I can in my isolation. I can't imagine that it is any different for Coptic people. You have to practice Orthodoxy, not run to something else that is easier or more self-centered. If Orthodox youth don't want to learn, they won't and no amount of offering to teach them will help. So I don't think it is all about teaching. It is teaching and learning willingly and practicing willingly.
Servant33, jafarag, Pharoh123, what is most maddening about all of you is your inability to understand. Your willful ignorance of what we are saying. This man, like most other protestants, does not distinguish between the belief and the individual. This man is clearly ignorant of history, scripture, doctrine, etc and yet feels as if he can speak against something. When we speak, against the BELIEF, we back it up with sound history and valid sources, not anger and hate. If this guy or any other protestant wants to speak out like this, let them. They are only making themselves look like absolute fools because they are clearly wrong, historically and scripturally. If you really liken us to that man, you are insane.
Listen, if you guys want to run off and join some superficial belief that masks itself as Christian, go ahead! We are not stopping you. If you really want to believe in universal salvation, go ahead nobody is stopping you. But just remember, it does not make it right. I am sorry that reality hurts you that bad that you must constantly defend heresy and try to make it seem as if we are "attacking" people, when we are not. Dont shove your garbage down my throat, your wrong and ignorant, worst of all you are willingly ignorant and there are not many things I despise more than willful ignorance......well maybe protestantism (the belief NOT the person, try and get that through your thick skull)
Look how we spend time in a Coptic Orthodox Church: Here are a few sayings that you may here or see DURING a 2-3 hour mass.
"The priest, with the incensor, goes around the alter and the deacon follows him from the other side, praying whilst moving around the alter. This happens 3 times".
"The priest, during the mass, will pray inaudbily during the mass...."
"The deacon, if a bishop is present, will pray.. if there is no bishop present, he will continue with..."
"In the presence of a Bishop, the following hymn may be sung"
"The deacon will say .... when the priest prays ...."
I even remember the Pope said: The Small deacon (child) will say "Abe-eprosefkes-stasithe" - and he has NO idea what it means.. but the job requires it.
THAT's RIGHT: THE POPE HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD: THE JOB REQUIRES IT.
Add onto this praying in Coptic and more prayers in Coptic that the "job requires".
Add on top of this the fact that the deacons sing, but in our Church, the people do not sing with them. Do the congregation KNOW Coptic like the deacons?? I HAVE NEVER STOOD in the Church (in the pews) and heard ANYONE (ANYONE!) in the congregation actually singing WITH the deacons.
There's something wrong here and we are NOT addressing it.
FINALLY -
Concerning the videos of the protestant attacking our faith - why doesn't a Coptic Priest do a video response and add it? WHY NOT??? Why are we so passive?? Why do we wait to let someone attack our Church and not even respond??????
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10823.msg131735#msg131735 date=1298883010] But we are responding.
Have you joined the Orthodox Purity facebook group?
Fr. Peter,
I think a video response, by a priest, is the best answer.
Orthodox Purity Group is JUST a facebook group of people who have something in common.
Its best to video yourself, take a question posed by the Protestants, and answer it.
I was going to do this with Anba Angaelos, and he STILL is upset with me for not doing it with him. I really love his creativity and zeal in all this. He is far from passive.
I aprpeciate him very much, although I may not agree with everything he may choose to do, he has seen that a video response IS important.
I don't think, to be honest with you, what Anba Angaelos had in mind was to respond to a particular video - that would be like "attacking" - MAYBE - but what he did want to do, with me videoing him was to discuss an issue that protestants accused us of and respond to it.
* Holy Communion - its importance - why we do it * We do not worship icons nor statues - so why do we have them? * The early Apostolic Church and its existence today - where is IT? * Baptism - what happens in the Orthodox/Catholic Baptismal font. - Why do we baptise? - Why is it important?
...
There are loads of questions that His Grace wanted to answer for me by video yet because i am always travelling, this hasn't been done yet.
I would do this tomorrow with him if I had a chance, but alas, I cannot, and H.G needs HANDS to help him. He is already busy, so I cannot expect him to do this by himself. Yet, HE DOES SEE THE NEED!!!
There is nothing wrong with taking a topic such as baptism, recording yourself, as a priest, and discussing Its importance - and its efficacy. Is there? What is the difference between this and a sermon.. ARE U NOT PREACHING?????? IS THIS NOT LIKE A SERMON??
People require this explanation.
The good thing is this - and this is why there is an urgency to produce these informative Q&A videos:
Protestants, amongst themselves, are beginning to divide over this issue like crazy. There are protestants who now argue that salvation is through FAITH and BAPTISM... but they are stuck.. who should baptise them??
It seems to me, that from the discussions that I have, the intellectual climate is ripe for them to be corrected and enlightened.
It will not take you long, Fr. Peter, if you have a webcam! Its EXTREMELY easy to do.
If I can send you the questions, and you can tape the answer, send me the video file and I will edit it for you and upload it.
The problem is that HG does not have the time, and he is already working full time.
I am not supported to work full time on this so I don't have the time.
Pray for me that God will provide the support I need to be able to do this full time and I will be able to. Otherwise when I am supposed to have the time to do it? You have admitted that HG needs help to be able to do it. So how can I?
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10823.msg131738#msg131738 date=1298885018] The problem is that HG does not have the time, and he is already working full time.
Exactly.
I am not supported to work full time on this so I don't have the time.
That's true.
Pray for me that God will provide the support I need to be able to do this full time and I will be able to. Otherwise when I am supposed to have the time to do it? You have admitted that HG needs help to be able to do it. So how can I?
Fair enough.. so where does this put us?
That's it??
Wait.. I know HG does not have the time but he could do it if someone worked with him.
OK.. is there anyone else available? I think this is more important than tasbeha.org.
We can have a member of our clergy with his own YouTube channel explaining our faith clearly.
Yourself and Anba Angaelos would be ideal - your English is brilliant (naturally), and you're both brilliant in Theology.
Abouna Shenouda is not bad, i'm quite impressed with his level knowledge also - especially in terms of rituals. He wouldn't be a bad alternative either ; but I think he could be camera shy.
Its up to you.. if I had the knowledge, I'd do it, but its still better if it comes from someone with an official standing from the Church - that way, its spoken as fact, rather than opinion.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10823.msg131741#msg131741 date=1298886955] It's not up to me. It's up to God to find the support I need to be able to do these things.
If God does not provide the support then it is impossible to fit everything in to the time available. That is just a fact.
OK Fr. Peter, I understand.
However, just so we are all clear - we're talking about a 2-5 minute video answering ONE question. You don't need to answer ALL the questions at once.
Also, you could (or we could) put a tag/link in the Video to Tasbeha.org or to your own website where people can go for more information.
You could also say or invite the viewers to email you a question that you can answer in a video also.
Bishop Kallistos Ware's books are good, but on video, he's too complicated.
If you can find the time to do ONE question a week, you just need to send me the clip and i'll add a nice logo/intro for you with Fade in / Fade out + links.
I'm sure there are 1000's of people here on tasbeha.org that would be happy to help.
The video response is very simple. You question his churches legitimacy, as I did in my apology against the JW video. If he cannot trace his church back to Christ through the apostles then everything he said in that video lacks any kind of substance. Believe me I have done this quite a bit, problem is I am just a deacon, not a priest or anything.
I think it is important to be on the offense against these beliefs. If you show these people that they lack legitimacy as a church, what can they do? If you utterly crush their beliefs and expose their beliefs, where else do they have to turn? Being passive only says to them that we are fearful and that their accusations are correct. I would LOVE to see that guy try and prove, according to Mt. 16:18, that his church is the church of acts. I would be willing to bet everything I owned that he can't.
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=10823.msg131744#msg131744 date=1298894284] The video response is very simple. You question his churches legitimacy, as I did in my apology against the JW video. If he cannot trace his church back to Christ through the apostles then everything he said in that video lacks any kind of substance. Believe me I have done this quite a bit, problem is I am just a deacon, not a priest or anything.
I'm afraid I cannot support you on that Ioannes. We are asking a Bishop/Priest to do these videos. If you and I were to create video responses, then sure - we could challenge his Churche's legitmacy. However, a priest cannot do that.
That wouldn't be constructive.
The language used in a video response, the mannerism, the tone of voice are all important. Otherwise, I could have done the video! You need someone better than me, more articulate, less prone to anger or sarcasm, and someone who can speak with Authority and knowledge.
I cannot ask Fr. Peter or HG Angelos to "attack" another denomination. That's not what this idea is about. We can provide a separate channel with our own Questions & Answers section to all the claims that protestants are accusing us of.
We can then reply with these videos. This is the Coptic Orthodox Church responding and educating others.
I know Fr. Peter is immensely busy, but I feel his time would be better invested in doing a video than in Admin in Tasbeha.org.
I think it is important to be on the offense against these beliefs. If you show these people that they lack legitimacy as a church, what can they do? If you utterly crush their beliefs and expose their beliefs, where else do they have to turn? Being passive only says to them that we are fearful and that their accusations are correct. I would LOVE to see that guy try and prove, according to Mt. 16:18, that his church is the church of acts. I would be willing to bet everything I owned that he can't.
Well, the term "be on the offensive" seems like we're on the attack. I doubt this is the spirit nor view the Church has with respect to education and dialogue. Its neither one I hold myself.
We know there are certain MISCONCEPTIONS and MISINFORMATION that protestants have about our faith, and I think with wisdom, and humility we should answer them.
Like I said, to even AVOID such attacks, or a sense that we are attacking, we simply need to host our own YouTube Channel and submit Questions & Answers.
Why don't we all do it?
If you have an Iphone 4, go and ask your local priest to answer a question and post it.
I can take the video, and upload it - or I can give you the username/password TO the coptic Channel on YouTube.
I created it AGES ago, but had no time to do this.
Here's a typical video that I'd like:
[Opening Logo of the Church] - 1.5 seconds [Fade - in] 0.5 [white screen] [Title] - Father/Bishop's ...... Q&A series [Fade out] 1 sec [Title on white screen in CLEAR / LARGE LETTERS] QUESTION # : What is the importance of Baptism for salvation? Why do we need to baptise?
[Video of Priest/Bishop] - The priest can introduce himself and then just speak about baptism. Why we are baptised... why do we need to be immersed in water? Does water save? Is this an act??? Is it a works salvation??
[end] [links to Coptic Websites for more information]
THAT's IT!!
We should all do it.
I can provide you with a list of questions to ask your priests and interview them.
Are you in??
I really need your help with this. Even if EACH priest answered the same question, that's great.. and in EVERY language. So, I could get you the answers to these questions in French/English/Dutch/Arabic.
We really REALLY need this.
Before you do this, if you want to be involved, I suggest that you download the latest copy of COMPARATIVE THEOLOGY by His Holiness Pope Shenouda.
Then, depending on the question, just read the portion of comments made in the book. I..e let's say the question concerns baptism. Read YOURSELF the comments in that chapter.
Before you make the video with the priest - becaue he will not have time, you need to give him these comments also - make sure he has covered them - or even gone beyond what H.H Pope Shenouda as written.
I really could do with some help here. I'm SURE your priests would love to do a simple Q&A Section. I will send you the contentious issues between us and the protestants - and ask you to ask them the question.
You only need to film it, send us the video file (by email) and we'll upload them for you - or we could send you the introduction speel and the end credits/information so you can do it yourself.
We don't want to hear your voice/my voice in the video. The question appears on the screen and a priest/bishop answers it.
You just video it and upload it for others to benefit.
That's it.
If you have an iPhone 4, the quality is amazing for videos (especially in daylight). You can just do all the editing ON THE PHONE and upload it INSTANTLY.
I can show you how to add titles to a video, do the montage etc.
If we can all ask our priest a question, and video the answer, and upload it, then it would be great.
Please email me at [email protected] if you are interested in assisting with this - OR PM me here on tasbeha.org
Also, with the iPhone 4, you can edit videos... which is vital. Perhaps the priest may have lost his train of thought and wants to edit a PORTION of a clip and not the whole clip. All this can be done on an Iphone 4 - EASILY!
Zoxasi, the reason I say this is because I have experience in protestantism. I do not want to generalize ALL of them, but it seem as if they dont want to understand. Protestantism means to PROTEST, and in this case it means against the church, the sacraments, etc. Because protestantism affords the individual with the ability to believe as they wish, they do just that. Protestantism teaches that all these sacraments and Traditions are works of the devil, that we have been overcome by the devil, why would they want to listen to us? The only people I EVER listened to when protestant, were the Ethiopians I tried arguing with. They told me straight to my face and I was shocked. If it werent for that I would probably still be dead.
I know we cannot ask a priest or bishop to attack anyone, those days of great apologetics are long gone. We probably will not see any more St John Chrysostoms, Tertullians, St Justin Martyr, St Athanasius, St Cyril or any other great defender of the faith. We have adopted the liberal tree hugging attitude in that we care more about hurting peoples feelings than stating the truth. If I treated my child in that way, he would grow up to be a brat. Sometimes, not in every situation of course, you have to be firm, direct, and a bit harsh to get your point across. I have created a very simple and effective defense of the Orthodox church, one in which the very legitimacy of their church is questioned and no matter how they try and argue it, they soon find out just how foolish their church really is.
If you would like to see evidence of this argument, at its most simplistic form, go o Orthodox Purity (on facebook) and watch the video I made of a debate with a Jehovah's Witness.
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=10823.msg131748#msg131748 date=1298898762] Zoxasi, the reason I say this is because I have experience in protestantism. I do not want to generalize ALL of them, but it seem as if they dont want to understand.
I really get that impression also. Its dead annoying!!
I get approached by evangelical christians who ask me if "I'm saved" - I tell them that "yes, I guess so.. hopefully if I remain holy as far as possible, and do not lose faith nor fall into a sin I cannot get out of, then I guess I'm saved".
But then they tell me that this is a "works salvation".
I tell them "No.. I really believe its like running a race, u cannot give up at the last minute".
No matter WHAT i tell them, they don't want to listen.. they have it in their thick skulls that we are worshipping saint Mary, and adoring statues.
Protestantism means to PROTEST, and in this case it means against the church, the sacraments, etc. Because protestantism affords the individual with the ability to believe as they wish, they do just that. Protestantism teaches that all these sacraments and Traditions are works of the devil, that we have been overcome by the devil, why would they want to listen to us? The only people I EVER listened to when protestant, were the Ethiopians I tried arguing with. They told me straight to my face and I was shocked. If it werent for that I would probably still be dead.
What happened?
I know we cannot ask a priest or bishop to attack anyone, those days of great apologetics are long gone. We probably will not see any more St John Chrysostoms, Tertullians, St Justin Martyr, St Athanasius, St Cyril or any other great defender of the faith. We have adopted the liberal tree hugging attitude in that we care more about hurting peoples feelings than stating the truth. If I treated my child in that way, he would grow up to be a brat. Sometimes, not in every situation of course, you have to be firm, direct, and a bit harsh to get your point across.
I want a YoutTube Coptic Orthodox Channel to be like a Q&A section. If you want one where priests start attacking protestants, I guess you need to ask Fr. Peter...
I just think the channel would be useful for anyone.
I have created a very simple and effective defense of the Orthodox church, one in which the very legitimacy of their church is questioned and no matter how they try and argue it, they soon find out just how foolish their church really is.
If you would like to see evidence of this argument, at its most simplistic form, go o Orthodox Purity (on facebook) and watch the video I made of a debate with a Jehovah's Witness.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10823.msg131751#msg131751 date=1298901922] Why say that I attack Protestants? How is that fair, true or kind?
Fr. Peter, this isn't my desire at all that we do this video in terms of "attacking" anyone.
I hope you realize that.
However, the need to explain and educate is still there and this is the duty of the clergy.
Your presence on tasbeha.org is indispensable, but if you really could find the time to do a short 2 minute video, it would be great because it would encourage everyone else to go to their priests and video another Q&A response.
All this is going to go to an Orthodox Video Channel - not even Coptic.
I am not sure I agree that producing 2 minute videos will achieve a lot.
I am already engaged in educating and explaining our faith. Much of it cannot be reduced to a 2 minute answer. Those Protestants who are interested in understanding Orthodox will require much more than 2 minutes, and those who are not interested in understanding will not be daunted by a 2 minute video I am afraid.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10823.msg131755#msg131755 date=1298904622] I am not sure I agree that producing 2 minute videos will achieve a lot.
I am already engaged in educating and explaining our faith. Much of it cannot be reduced to a 2 minute answer. Those Protestants who are interested in understanding Orthodox will require much more than 2 minutes, and those who are not interested in understanding will not be daunted by a 2 minute video I am afraid.
Well, I'm assuming an answer to a question takes around 2 minutes.
But then, my idea isn't for protestants - its for everyone, even Orthodox, who wish to know more about their faith.
Yes, of course, I'd like the questions to be pertinent to what the Church is attacked by, but its still useful for everyone.
If you feel such things are futile, why did the Pope create the Book Comparative Theology?
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10823.msg131757#msg131757 date=1298905623] Sorry, where did I say that apologetics is futile? Please don't put words in my mouth.
If you read my post you will see that I said that what is required is substantial material not just a 2 minute sound bite.
Oh my apologies, that's the impression I got. I think when you said
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10823.msg131755#msg131755 date=1298904622] I am not sure I agree that producing 2 minute videos will achieve a lot.
Those Protestants who are interested in understanding Orthodox will require much more than 2 minutes, and those who are not interested in understanding will not be daunted by a 2 minute video I am afraid.
So, if protestants won't be interested in a simple 2 minute video, I doubt that they'd be interested in a book.
Its fine Father. You don't have to participate in this. I'm just in a place where there are no English/French speaking priests. But I will ask the priests I know who have already shown interest in doing this.
I don't like it when people complain that its dark. I prefer to be constructive and light a candle. This is my candle.
Good luck with your facebook page.
Oh. Please please ignore my posts, they are not worth you taking up time and answering them. Your time is so precious that its annoying to see you responding here, especially where you don't need to even answer.
Zoxasi, in my experience I find that it is necessary to engage protestants, and not in this tree hugger manner so many of our clergy embrace. Being honest and truthful is what we should be, we shouldnot refrain from speaking the truth to their faces, that is not an attack on anyone but a demonstration of how incorrect their beliefs are. What we are doing now is good, with Orthodox Purity, and making videos where someone beats around the bush in an attempt to explain ourselves without offending them is pointless, absolutely pointless. Orthodoxy is the truth and I think it is time we act as if we really believe it instead of being so weary and quick to accept others who claim to be Christian.
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=10823.msg131762#msg131762 date=1298912876] Zoxasi, in my experience I find that it is necessary to engage protestants, and not in this tree hugger manner so many of our clergy embrace. Being honest and truthful is what we should be, we shouldnot refrain from speaking the truth to their faces, that is not an attack on anyone but a demonstration of how incorrect their beliefs are. What we are doing now is good, with Orthodox Purity, and making videos where someone beats around the bush in an attempt to explain ourselves without offending them is pointless, absolutely pointless. Orthodoxy is the truth and I think it is time we act as if we really believe it instead of being so weary and quick to accept others who claim to be Christian.
I agree.. but the channel I had in mind was for everyone, including protestants.
Join Orthodox Purity, we need ya.
I cannot see how such a facebook group can help explain our faith to others. I thought the best way to explain your faith and why we do things is to just do that: i.e. EXPLAIN IT.
In plain English, on a video.
What is the difference between a sermon in Church and a youtube video?
Zoxasi, it took me years and years to "get" Orthodoxy. There is no video that can explain our faith. Orthodox Purity is great at explaining our faith because the group itself is about the true Orthodox faith in its purest form. Many in our own church do not even understand what they believe, so we need to start in our church.
Ionnes, "If you really liken us to that man, you are insane." I was in no way trying to relate anyone to this man, they were simply videos i found when searching something about Pope Shenouda. and proceeded to direct you towards them, using sarcasm to entice you to them in hopes you would 'enjoy' them.
"reality hurts you that bad that you must constantly defend heresy and try to make it seem as if we are "attacking" people, when we are not. Dont shove your garbage down my throat, your wrong and ignorant" And i never promoted protestantism. In fact from my first post - which although was admittingly forced, premature, and deficient - i acknowledged that protestantism was not true Christianity. I was simply trying to acknowledge that there are many, for the lack of better words, good protestants. i never promoted the dogma, rather i tried to acknowledge that it has 'good' people who follow it and that the have still provided a pathway for people completely bereft of Christ, to be introduced Christ, and possibly eventually Orthodoxy. I apologize for any misunderstanding that caused you to think i was promoting protestantism, and i was wrong in accusing anyone of attacking people as it seems that i have - as i said my initial post was premature and underdeveloped. so please get it through your head that i did not come here to promote the protestant dogma
Jfarag, then why is it that you have such a hard time understanding the difference between the people and the belief? I never said anything against the people and you cannot seem to understand that.
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=10823.msg131730#msg131730 date=1298863083] Servant33, jafarag, Pharoh123, what is most maddening about all of you is your inability to understand. Your willful ignorance of what we are saying. This man, like most other protestants, does not distinguish between the belief and the individual. This man is clearly ignorant of history, scripture, doctrine, etc and yet feels as if he can speak against something. When we speak, against the BELIEF, we back it up with sound history and valid sources, not anger and hate. If this guy or any other protestant wants to speak out like this, let them. They are only making themselves look like absolute fools because they are clearly wrong, historically and scripturally. If you really liken us to that man, you are insane.
Listen, if you guys want to run off and join some superficial belief that masks itself as Christian, go ahead! We are not stopping you. If you really want to believe in universal salvation, go ahead nobody is stopping you. But just remember, it does not make it right. I am sorry that reality hurts you that bad that you must constantly defend heresy and try to make it seem as if we are "attacking" people, when we are not. Dont shove your garbage down my throat, your wrong and ignorant, worst of all you are willingly ignorant and there are not many things I despise more than willful ignorance......well maybe protestantism (the belief NOT the person, try and get that through your thick skull)
I never advocated for this man nor Protestantism I said many of them as INDIVIDUALS have done a lot of good things for Christianity as a whole despite their lacking dogma. I meant that despite that they were still able to do right things and we should respect that. Also there are some who have also done many bad things like become the first churches to allow same sex marriage and female ministers. Many of them also have incorrect interpretations of scripture and history. My second point was that we must take more responsibility for conversions and create a better environment for the congregation instead of blaming Protestants for taking believers away because no matter what there will always be a more "cool, current" alternative that we will have to fight. There is also no point in doing a back and forth with them; many of them are too stubborn to accept some of their views as false and will think we are simply an evil trying to attack their faith and thus, that'd be a waste of time. It is better for us to improve our church community and our congregation to make it harder for Protestants or who ever it is to take away our followers. I also never said that Protestants are more accepting and don't kick people out of their churches and so on...that I don't know; I've been going to Coptic churches my whole life and I can only speak for the things I see.
Comments
Oh Ionnes, you will love these
That really hurts, I cant stand hearing people insult the church of God because of their ignorance of scripture and history and their love for "there own way" claiming it to be the way Christ intended. Theres a shocking similarity between protestantism and as I would call it, the protestants of the old testament, that is people like Korah Dathan and Abiram, who decided to offer incense to God, saying to Moses and Aaron "Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the Lord is among them". Then they offered incense and God destroyed them.
Oh Ionnes, you will love these
See how angry and frustrated it makes you when you see videos like this! And we are doing the same thing to them. And when all we do is fight and attack each other, the only person who wins is the devil, because we are letting him stir up strife and enmity.
The reason Protestantism is so popular and people are flocking to it is, no not the Protestant's faults, it is ours. We as Orthodox are not teaching others about the beauty of our church. Most people think the only two Christian branches are Protestantism or Catholicism, and many Christians have never even heard of Orthodoxy. Now whose fault is that? Are we to criticize the Protestants for "corrupting" people? Surely it is our fault for not teaching others about the original Christianity or spreading it to others around the world. From the Protestant to Orthodox converts I have met, many express how they were struggling to find the original true Christianity and were so lucky to have found the Orthodox church. Why is this the case? Why do people have to struggle to find us.
As for the youth leaving, we are not doing enough to show the youth how wonderful and rich the Orthodox church is, nor properly catering to their needs - which can be done in a way that does not compromise the Orthodox teaching or tradition. We need to educate the youth and show them why the Orthodox faith is so beautiful -- and how it is not just some thing they do on Sundays because their parents are Egyptian. As for catering to their needs, youth need social interaction and they need easier outlets of worship, before they can mature to accept the fullness of the church. In terms of the church, this means more social activities for the youth (even non-religious activities like playing sports) that create fun and social fellowship with the other Orthodox Christians. As for worship, there are good number of more modern Orthodox songs that can be sung at meetings to supplement the Orthodox tradition. Songs like "Shepherd of my Soul" "To whom shall I go" are easier ways for the youth to worship and grow along side the Orthodox services until God opens their eyes and shows them how much He has blessed us with the church tradition.
I think that if we work on these, as opposed to just pointing fingers at other denominations, we can fully preserve the Orthodox tradition, cater to the youth needs, and spread Orthodoxy to the many who are thirsty for it.
See how angry and frustrated it makes you when you see videos like this! And we are doing the same thing to them. And when all we do is fight and attack each other, the only person who wins is the devil, because we are letting him stir up strife and enmity.
I disagree that the same blame is to be shared by those who are defending their faith. The Coptic Church did nothing to this man or his church to provoke the insults he presented to the world and was rightly rebuked for. As I have been in this situation myself, I cannot honestly and sincerely blame Protestants who are born Protestants for believing as they do if they do not know any better (if they do not know the Orthodox Church, and you are right, many don't). I don't think Orthodox who have decided to join the Protestants can be viewed in the same light, though. Surely Orthodoxy is a choice we must make ever single day, right? In the same way that we can choose to do good or do evil because God did not make us to be robots, we can also choose to be Orthodox or not Orthodox. You have a great point here, I think. So when can I expect you at my doorstep? I want to know when I should put on the tea so that it is hot when you get here.
Seriously, I mean this with no disrespect to you: Everyone recognizes that this is an issue, and posts here on Tasbeha and other places, and some go to Africa or other places to teach people Orthodoxy. That's great. What about you in your own community? Father Peter has things planned for his community. I'd be overjoyed if something similar were to be established in my community, and I bet people in your community would also like it for themselves, if you show them why they should. ;) I'm sorry but I do not buy this "we haven't taught them enough" business. Certainly everyone could be taught better, so please don't think I am for even a second that I am dismissing that or lessening it. But at the same time, "we didn't teach them well enough" is not going to cut it. Did they fall off the face of the planet? Are they somewhere off on Mars where we cannot reach them and tell them what they need to know? Also, not to make things all about me, but I must point out that no one in the Catholic Church ever taught me about Orthodoxy. Nobody in the Presbyterian Church ever taught me about Orthodoxy. I didn't teach myself about Orthodoxy. I still managed to show up here somehow, and it's not because I'm so great or anything about me. In truth, I only began to learn about Orthodoxy as the true way by trying to learn and practice it, as best as I can in my isolation. I can't imagine that it is any different for Coptic people. You have to practice Orthodoxy, not run to something else that is easier or more self-centered. If Orthodox youth don't want to learn, they won't and no amount of offering to teach them will help. So I don't think it is all about teaching. It is teaching and learning willingly and practicing willingly.
Listen, if you guys want to run off and join some superficial belief that masks itself as Christian, go ahead! We are not stopping you. If you really want to believe in universal salvation, go ahead nobody is stopping you. But just remember, it does not make it right. I am sorry that reality hurts you that bad that you must constantly defend heresy and try to make it seem as if we are "attacking" people, when we are not. Dont shove your garbage down my throat, your wrong and ignorant, worst of all you are willingly ignorant and there are not many things I despise more than willful ignorance......well maybe protestantism (the belief NOT the person, try and get that through your thick skull)
Look how we spend time in a Coptic Orthodox Church: Here are a few sayings that you may here or see DURING a 2-3 hour mass.
"The priest, with the incensor, goes around the alter and the deacon follows him from the other side, praying whilst moving around the alter. This happens 3 times".
"The priest, during the mass, will pray inaudbily during the mass...."
"The deacon, if a bishop is present, will pray.. if there is no bishop present, he will continue with..."
"In the presence of a Bishop, the following hymn may be sung"
"The deacon will say .... when the priest prays ...."
I even remember the Pope said: The Small deacon (child) will say "Abe-eprosefkes-stasithe" - and he has NO idea what it means.. but the job requires it.
THAT's RIGHT: THE POPE HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD: THE JOB REQUIRES IT.
Add onto this praying in Coptic and more prayers in Coptic that the "job requires".
Add on top of this the fact that the deacons sing, but in our Church, the people do not sing with them. Do the congregation KNOW Coptic like the deacons?? I HAVE NEVER STOOD in the Church (in the pews) and heard ANYONE (ANYONE!) in the congregation actually singing WITH the deacons.
There's something wrong here and we are NOT addressing it.
FINALLY -
Concerning the videos of the protestant attacking our faith - why doesn't a Coptic Priest do a video response and add it? WHY NOT??? Why are we so passive?? Why do we wait to let someone attack our Church and not even respond??????
Have you joined the Orthodox Purity facebook group?
But we are responding.
Have you joined the Orthodox Purity facebook group?
Fr. Peter,
I think a video response, by a priest, is the best answer.
Orthodox Purity Group is JUST a facebook group of people who have something in common.
Its best to video yourself, take a question posed by the Protestants, and answer it.
I was going to do this with Anba Angaelos, and he STILL is upset with me for not doing it with him. I really love his creativity and zeal in all this. He is far from passive.
I aprpeciate him very much, although I may not agree with everything he may choose to do, he has seen that a video response IS important.
I don't think, to be honest with you, what Anba Angaelos had in mind was to respond to a particular video - that would be like "attacking" - MAYBE - but what he did want to do, with me videoing him was to discuss an issue that protestants accused us of and respond to it.
* Holy Communion - its importance - why we do it
* We do not worship icons nor statues - so why do we have them?
* The early Apostolic Church and its existence today - where is IT?
* Baptism - what happens in the Orthodox/Catholic Baptismal font.
- Why do we baptise?
- Why is it important?
...
There are loads of questions that His Grace wanted to answer for me by video yet because i am always travelling, this hasn't been done yet.
I would do this tomorrow with him if I had a chance, but alas, I cannot, and H.G needs HANDS to help him. He is already busy, so I cannot expect him to do this by himself. Yet, HE DOES SEE THE NEED!!!
There is nothing wrong with taking a topic such as baptism, recording yourself, as a priest, and discussing Its importance - and its efficacy. Is there? What is the difference between this and a sermon.. ARE U NOT PREACHING?????? IS THIS NOT LIKE A SERMON??
People require this explanation.
The good thing is this - and this is why there is an urgency to produce these informative Q&A videos:
Protestants, amongst themselves, are beginning to divide over this issue like crazy. There are protestants who now argue that salvation is through FAITH and BAPTISM... but they are stuck.. who should baptise them??
It seems to me, that from the discussions that I have, the intellectual climate is ripe for them to be corrected and enlightened.
It will not take you long, Fr. Peter, if you have a webcam! Its EXTREMELY easy to do.
If I can send you the questions, and you can tape the answer, send me the video file and I will edit it for you and upload it.
As you want.. im pretty good with video files.
Whatever .. but we need content.
I am not supported to work full time on this so I don't have the time.
Pray for me that God will provide the support I need to be able to do this full time and I will be able to. Otherwise when I am supposed to have the time to do it? You have admitted that HG needs help to be able to do it. So how can I?
The problem is that HG does not have the time, and he is already working full time.
Exactly. That's true. Fair enough.. so where does this put us?
That's it??
Wait.. I know HG does not have the time but he could do it if someone worked with him.
OK.. is there anyone else available? I think this is more important than tasbeha.org.
We can have a member of our clergy with his own YouTube channel explaining our faith clearly.
Yourself and Anba Angaelos would be ideal - your English is brilliant (naturally), and you're both brilliant in Theology.
Abouna Shenouda is not bad, i'm quite impressed with his level knowledge also - especially in terms of rituals. He wouldn't be a bad alternative either ; but I think he could be camera shy.
Its up to you.. if I had the knowledge, I'd do it, but its still better if it comes from someone with an official standing from the Church - that way, its spoken as fact, rather than opinion.
The only other alternative is Iqbal.
If God does not provide the support then it is impossible to fit everything in to the time available. That is just a fact.
It's not up to me. It's up to God to find the support I need to be able to do these things.
If God does not provide the support then it is impossible to fit everything in to the time available. That is just a fact.
OK Fr. Peter, I understand.
However, just so we are all clear - we're talking about a 2-5 minute video answering ONE question. You don't need to answer ALL the questions at once.
Also, you could (or we could) put a tag/link in the Video to Tasbeha.org or to your own website where people can go for more information.
You could also say or invite the viewers to email you a question that you can answer in a video also.
Bishop Kallistos Ware's books are good, but on video, he's too complicated.
If you can find the time to do ONE question a week, you just need to send me the clip and i'll add a nice logo/intro for you with Fade in / Fade out + links.
I'm sure there are 1000's of people here on tasbeha.org that would be happy to help.
Thanks
I think it is important to be on the offense against these beliefs. If you show these people that they lack legitimacy as a church, what can they do? If you utterly crush their beliefs and expose their beliefs, where else do they have to turn? Being passive only says to them that we are fearful and that their accusations are correct. I would LOVE to see that guy try and prove, according to Mt. 16:18, that his church is the church of acts. I would be willing to bet everything I owned that he can't.
The video response is very simple. You question his churches legitimacy, as I did in my apology against the JW video. If he cannot trace his church back to Christ through the apostles then everything he said in that video lacks any kind of substance. Believe me I have done this quite a bit, problem is I am just a deacon, not a priest or anything.
I'm afraid I cannot support you on that Ioannes. We are asking a Bishop/Priest to do these videos. If you and I were to create video responses, then sure - we could challenge his Churche's legitmacy. However, a priest cannot do that.
That wouldn't be constructive.
The language used in a video response, the mannerism, the tone of voice are all important. Otherwise, I could have done the video! You need someone better than me, more articulate, less prone to anger or sarcasm, and someone who can speak with Authority and knowledge.
I cannot ask Fr. Peter or HG Angelos to "attack" another denomination. That's not what this idea is about. We can provide a separate channel with our own Questions & Answers section to all the claims that protestants are accusing us of.
We can then reply with these videos. This is the Coptic Orthodox Church responding and educating others.
I know Fr. Peter is immensely busy, but I feel his time would be better invested in doing a video than in Admin in Tasbeha.org. Well, the term "be on the offensive" seems like we're on the attack. I doubt this is the spirit nor view the Church has with respect to education and dialogue. Its neither one I hold myself.
We know there are certain MISCONCEPTIONS and MISINFORMATION that protestants have about our faith, and I think with wisdom, and humility we should answer them.
Like I said, to even AVOID such attacks, or a sense that we are attacking, we simply need to host our own YouTube Channel and submit Questions & Answers.
Why don't we all do it?
If you have an Iphone 4, go and ask your local priest to answer a question and post it.
I can take the video, and upload it - or I can give you the username/password TO the coptic Channel on YouTube.
I created it AGES ago, but had no time to do this.
Here's a typical video that I'd like:
[Opening Logo of the Church] - 1.5 seconds
[Fade - in] 0.5
[white screen]
[Title] - Father/Bishop's ...... Q&A series
[Fade out] 1 sec
[Title on white screen in CLEAR / LARGE LETTERS] QUESTION # : What is the importance of Baptism for salvation? Why do we need to baptise?
[Video of Priest/Bishop] - The priest can introduce himself and then just speak about baptism. Why we are baptised... why do we need to be immersed in water? Does water save? Is this an act??? Is it a works salvation??
[end]
[links to Coptic Websites for more information]
THAT's IT!!
We should all do it.
I can provide you with a list of questions to ask your priests and interview them.
Are you in??
I really need your help with this. Even if EACH priest answered the same question, that's great.. and in EVERY language. So, I could get you the answers to these questions in French/English/Dutch/Arabic.
We really REALLY need this.
Before you do this, if you want to be involved, I suggest that you download the latest copy of COMPARATIVE THEOLOGY by His Holiness Pope Shenouda.
Then, depending on the question, just read the portion of comments made in the book. I..e let's say the question concerns baptism. Read YOURSELF the comments in that chapter.
Before you make the video with the priest - becaue he will not have time, you need to give him these comments also - make sure he has covered them - or even gone beyond what H.H Pope Shenouda as written.
I really could do with some help here. I'm SURE your priests would love to do a simple Q&A Section. I will send you the contentious issues between us and the protestants - and ask you to ask them the question.
You only need to film it, send us the video file (by email) and we'll upload them for you - or we could send you the introduction speel and the end credits/information so you can do it yourself.
How does that sound?
We don't want to hear your voice/my voice in the video. The question appears on the screen and a priest/bishop answers it.
You just video it and upload it for others to benefit.
That's it.
If you have an iPhone 4, the quality is amazing for videos (especially in daylight). You can just do all the editing ON THE PHONE and upload it INSTANTLY.
I can show you how to add titles to a video, do the montage etc.
If we can all ask our priest a question, and video the answer, and upload it, then it would be great.
Please email me at [email protected] if you are interested in assisting with this - OR PM me here on tasbeha.org
Also, with the iPhone 4, you can edit videos... which is vital. Perhaps the priest may have lost his train of thought and wants to edit a PORTION of a clip and not the whole clip. All this can be done on an Iphone 4 - EASILY!
Thanks
I know we cannot ask a priest or bishop to attack anyone, those days of great apologetics are long gone. We probably will not see any more St John Chrysostoms, Tertullians, St Justin Martyr, St Athanasius, St Cyril or any other great defender of the faith. We have adopted the liberal tree hugging attitude in that we care more about hurting peoples feelings than stating the truth. If I treated my child in that way, he would grow up to be a brat. Sometimes, not in every situation of course, you have to be firm, direct, and a bit harsh to get your point across.
I have created a very simple and effective defense of the Orthodox church, one in which the very legitimacy of their church is questioned and no matter how they try and argue it, they soon find out just how foolish their church really is.
If you would like to see evidence of this argument, at its most simplistic form, go o Orthodox Purity (on facebook) and watch the video I made of a debate with a Jehovah's Witness.
Zoxasi, the reason I say this is because I have experience in protestantism. I do not want to generalize ALL of them, but it seem as if they dont want to understand.
I really get that impression also. Its dead annoying!!
I get approached by evangelical christians who ask me if "I'm saved" - I tell them that "yes, I guess so.. hopefully if I remain holy as far as possible, and do not lose faith nor fall into a sin I cannot get out of, then I guess I'm saved".
But then they tell me that this is a "works salvation".
I tell them "No.. I really believe its like running a race, u cannot give up at the last minute".
No matter WHAT i tell them, they don't want to listen.. they have it in their thick skulls that we are worshipping saint Mary, and adoring statues. What happened? I want a YoutTube Coptic Orthodox Channel to be like a Q&A section. If you want one where priests start attacking protestants, I guess you need to ask Fr. Peter...
I just think the channel would be useful for anyone. I'll check it out.
Thanks
Why say that I attack Protestants? How is that fair, true or kind?
Fr. Peter, this isn't my desire at all that we do this video in terms of "attacking" anyone.
I hope you realize that.
However, the need to explain and educate is still there and this is the duty of the clergy.
Your presence on tasbeha.org is indispensable, but if you really could find the time to do a short 2 minute video, it would be great because it would encourage everyone else to go to their priests and video another Q&A response.
All this is going to go to an Orthodox Video Channel - not even Coptic.
I am already engaged in educating and explaining our faith. Much of it cannot be reduced to a 2 minute answer. Those Protestants who are interested in understanding Orthodox will require much more than 2 minutes, and those who are not interested in understanding will not be daunted by a 2 minute video I am afraid.
I am not sure I agree that producing 2 minute videos will achieve a lot.
I am already engaged in educating and explaining our faith. Much of it cannot be reduced to a 2 minute answer. Those Protestants who are interested in understanding Orthodox will require much more than 2 minutes, and those who are not interested in understanding will not be daunted by a 2 minute video I am afraid.
Well, I'm assuming an answer to a question takes around 2 minutes.
But then, my idea isn't for protestants - its for everyone, even Orthodox, who wish to know more about their faith.
Yes, of course, I'd like the questions to be pertinent to what the Church is attacked by, but its still useful for everyone.
If you feel such things are futile, why did the Pope create the Book Comparative Theology?
If you read my post you will see that I said that what is required is substantial material not just a 2 minute sound bite.
Sorry, where did I say that apologetics is futile? Please don't put words in my mouth.
If you read my post you will see that I said that what is required is substantial material not just a 2 minute sound bite.
Oh my apologies, that's the impression I got. I think when you said
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10823.msg131755#msg131755 date=1298904622]
I am not sure I agree that producing 2 minute videos will achieve a lot.
Those Protestants who are interested in understanding Orthodox will require much more than 2 minutes, and those who are not interested in understanding will not be daunted by a 2 minute video I am afraid.
So, if protestants won't be interested in a simple 2 minute video, I doubt that they'd be interested in a book.
Its fine Father. You don't have to participate in this. I'm just in a place where there are no English/French speaking priests. But I will ask the priests I know who have already shown interest in doing this.
I don't like it when people complain that its dark. I prefer to be constructive and light a candle. This is my candle.
Good luck with your facebook page.
Oh. Please please ignore my posts, they are not worth you taking up time and answering them. Your time is so precious that its annoying to see you responding here, especially where you don't need to even answer.
Join Orthodox Purity, we need ya.
Zoxasi, in my experience I find that it is necessary to engage protestants, and not in this tree hugger manner so many of our clergy embrace. Being honest and truthful is what we should be, we shouldnot refrain from speaking the truth to their faces, that is not an attack on anyone but a demonstration of how incorrect their beliefs are. What we are doing now is good, with Orthodox Purity, and making videos where someone beats around the bush in an attempt to explain ourselves without offending them is pointless, absolutely pointless. Orthodoxy is the truth and I think it is time we act as if we really believe it instead of being so weary and quick to accept others who claim to be Christian.
I agree.. but the channel I had in mind was for everyone, including protestants. I cannot see how such a facebook group can help explain our faith to others. I thought the best way to explain your faith and why we do things is to just do that: i.e. EXPLAIN IT.
In plain English, on a video.
What is the difference between a sermon in Church and a youtube video?
"If you really liken us to that man, you are insane."
I was in no way trying to relate anyone to this man, they were simply videos i found when searching something about Pope Shenouda. and proceeded to direct you towards them, using sarcasm to entice you to them in hopes you would 'enjoy' them.
"reality hurts you that bad that you must constantly defend heresy and try to make it seem as if we are "attacking" people, when we are not. Dont shove your garbage down my throat, your wrong and ignorant"
And i never promoted protestantism. In fact from my first post - which although was admittingly forced, premature, and deficient - i acknowledged that protestantism was not true Christianity. I was simply trying to acknowledge that there are many, for the lack of better words, good protestants.
i never promoted the dogma, rather i tried to acknowledge that it has 'good' people who follow it and that the have still provided a pathway for people completely bereft of Christ, to be introduced Christ, and possibly eventually Orthodoxy.
I apologize for any misunderstanding that caused you to think i was promoting protestantism, and i was wrong in accusing anyone of attacking people as it seems that i have - as i said my initial post was premature and underdeveloped. so please get it through your head that i did not come here to promote the protestant dogma
Servant33, jafarag, Pharoh123, what is most maddening about all of you is your inability to understand. Your willful ignorance of what we are saying. This man, like most other protestants, does not distinguish between the belief and the individual. This man is clearly ignorant of history, scripture, doctrine, etc and yet feels as if he can speak against something. When we speak, against the BELIEF, we back it up with sound history and valid sources, not anger and hate. If this guy or any other protestant wants to speak out like this, let them. They are only making themselves look like absolute fools because they are clearly wrong, historically and scripturally. If you really liken us to that man, you are insane.
Listen, if you guys want to run off and join some superficial belief that masks itself as Christian, go ahead! We are not stopping you. If you really want to believe in universal salvation, go ahead nobody is stopping you. But just remember, it does not make it right. I am sorry that reality hurts you that bad that you must constantly defend heresy and try to make it seem as if we are "attacking" people, when we are not. Dont shove your garbage down my throat, your wrong and ignorant, worst of all you are willingly ignorant and there are not many things I despise more than willful ignorance......well maybe protestantism (the belief NOT the person, try and get that through your thick skull)
I never advocated for this man nor Protestantism I said many of them as INDIVIDUALS have done a lot of good things for Christianity as a whole despite their lacking dogma. I meant that despite that they were still able to do right things and we should respect that. Also there are some who have also done many bad things like become the first churches to allow same sex marriage and female ministers. Many of them also have incorrect interpretations of scripture and history.
My second point was that we must take more responsibility for conversions and create a better environment for the congregation instead of blaming Protestants for taking believers away because no matter what there will always be a more "cool, current" alternative that we will have to fight. There is also no point in doing a back and forth with them; many of them are too stubborn to accept some of their views as false and will think we are simply an evil trying to attack their faith and thus, that'd be a waste of time. It is better for us to improve our church community and our congregation to make it harder for Protestants or who ever it is to take away our followers.
I also never said that Protestants are more accepting and don't kick people out of their churches and so on...that I don't know; I've been going to Coptic churches my whole life and I can only speak for the things I see.