With all do respect father, I think you neglected a good portion of what I said. I tried to make it clear that allowing these different influences must be done with great wisdom and the guidance of the Spirit. If the idea is anti-orthodox and could weaken the church than surely we should reject it. I am not advocating dancing and singing "christian rock" during the Holy Liturgy, but singing "no eye has seen" in Sunday school is not unorthodox and it is silly to think it is. We have to be wise in knowing when one thing is appropriate and the other not. When we completely shun everything different for fear of change, albeit with good intentions to preserve the orthodox faith, we are hindering the Lord's ministry.
"... to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law,that I might win those who are under the law;to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God,but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law;to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you." -1 Cor. 9:20-23
Now, as St. Paul altered himself to win some people to the Kingdom of God, we must do the same. BUT, also as St. Paul alters himself, he makes a parenthetical remark that it was with limits. He never went against the truth, which is Christ, yet he remained under His law.
We too should not be afraid to change in order to win souls for the Kingdom of God, but at the same time we should follow the example of St. Paul and understand our boundaries and never go against our faith.
Again, a delicate balance that we pray the Spirit will guide us in understanding.
Is it that St. Paul changed, or that he was able to relate to each person at the level they were at, so as to bring them to where they should be? (i.e., to bring them to Christ)
I do not think Paul changed the faith one iota to win anyone. He would know that conversions made by such means are not lasting, having been a sincere convert himself.
A Jew speaking to a pagan cannot relate to him unless there was some change. Maybe in appearance, manner of speech, etc. But some change occurred. How else can you relate to someone if you have nothing in common? But this change should never go against one's true identity or faith.
I never said St. Paul changed anything regarding the faith. In fact, I went out of my way to say he did not. But some alteration occurred so that he could gain more people for Christ who might have otherwise perished. St. Paul was wise and the Holy Spirit guided him every step of the way. He was able to distinguish between things critical to the faith and those that are not. He acted accordingly and converted multitudes to the faith.
Our problem is we cannot make this distinction. So out of fear and a genuine love for our church we block any and all change. Some of it for good reason, others, for not so good reasons.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10823.msg131869#msg131869 date=1299095296] Of course it affects people's salvation. Orthodoxy is the truth, to deny this is not to be Orthodox at all.
In light of what you have said Fr Peter, I believe what H.G. Bishop Moussa (Bishop of Youth) has said is extremely irresponsible and certainly unorthodox.
There's no two ways about it. You cannot say that its "OK" to go to Protestant Churches, and the ONLY thing that distinguishes Orthodox Christians and Protestant Christians is the path to the same destination: one takes longer and one is shorter.
I feel that even if Protestants are saved, he is not doing justice to the Coptic Orthodox Church, NOR is he appreciating the zealous movement of Coptic Orthodox Christians INTO the Protestant Churches. I think he has NO IDEA of this.
Does H.G. realize that Protestants have no clergy? Does he understand that Protestants have NO priesthood, and ultimately NO Sacraments. Does he realize that if we all became protestant, that would render his position in the Church USELESS??? What would be the need of Bishops and priests in the COC if we could be saved WITHOUT Graces from the sacraments??
What's the point of that!!!
He ought to be an advocate for Orthodoxy, not an apologist for Protestantism.
This is still an interesting point, and I know MANY MANY MANY Coptic Servants in my CHurch who feel that this "zealousness" towards the Coptic Orthodox Church is totally unwarranted and fanatical, and that salvation can be achieved through other Churches / denominations.
They always tell me that we are just "ONE ROUTE" to the same destination.
How far is this true??
As I explained earlier, Orthodox Soteriology is based on Baptism (A priest baptises us in water). Protestant Soteriology is based SOLELY on faith - saved by Grace through faith, where baptism is only an expression of faith, but entirely unnecessary for salvation.
The Bible clearly tells us that UNLESS we partake of the Holy Communion, we have no life in us. If Protestants do not partake of this, what life would they have in them?
The question that we should be asking now is:
* Is there a false sense of security within the protestant faithful?? * Are Copts in jeapardy of their own salvation IF they attend BOTH Coptic and Protestant churches??
One thing is for sure: H.G Bishop Moussa is totally ignorant of the fact that protestantism is creeping into our Church and is replacing Orthodox Spirituality with Protestant Philosophy. He has no idea of this.
The blocking of a few protestant songs from our Church might help, but its not just the songs, we need to block their ideologies.
You cannot imagine how far this has gone. I have witnessed even Protestantised Coptic Orthodox Christians CORRECT and shout at our own Coptic Priests for a sermon they've given because it is against what they've learnt in the protestant churches.
I've listened to a couple of lectures and read a couple of articles by HG. Although he certainly does try to engage the youth, NEVER have I ever heard him say something that seemed to be that liberal. If anything I found him to be promoting conservative ideas in a happy-go lucky kinda way. So it seems highly implausible to have such a quote attributed to him. Maybe it's jsut a misquote or a misunderstanding.
It seems we have an infiltration here that has already affected the minds and hearts of Orthodox people. The grace of the Holy Spirit is with His church, those who choose to worship God in their own way do not have this grace. To adopt their heretical way of worship would be to compromise the church of Christ. Unworthy1 what you are advocating is heresy, and your misuse of scripture tells me that your mind has already been perverted by protestantism. Why am I seeking to protect the church, her Traditions, sacraments, doctrine, etc.? Because without those ALL are lost. I do not do this for my own satisfaction, I do it because it is right and needs to be done.
Have you forgotten the words of Christ in Mt 5:13: "“You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men." We are to be as salt and preserve, otherwise we will be overrun by heretics. Your words and behavior disgust me, if indeed you are Orthodox and not just pretending. Advocating heresy makes my stomach turn, and to do it with such ease disturbs me even more.
Unworthy1 is from L.A., that makes a lot of sense, the Coptic churches out there are pretty much protestant.
[quote author=Stavro link=topic=10823.msg131868#msg131868 date=1299093705] If we stop short of issuing an anathema against Protestantism as a whole, declaring them to be outside the grace of God and with no access to salvation, all this discussion is useless.
Why do we care if Orthodox visit Protestant places, if it does not affect their salvation? We offer orthodoxy as the better alternative, and not the absolute truth, and therefore we are destined to lose the battle as we have been doing for the past 40 years.
Anba Moussa, the YOUTH bishop, has said long time ago that Protestants do not perish and they get saved. He said that Orthodoxy is the easier way for salvation or the straight way, but protestantism is a "zig-zag" way. Ultimately both lead to salvation. Why should anybody care then?
Well, my last post was in response to this comment.
But regardless - are protestants "saved"?
They keep on telling us that we are not saved, but are THEY saved??
if they were not baptised and refute baptism If they deny the importance of Holy Communion as a Sacrament and confession - are THEY saved??
Why, you know what?? If I, as a Coptic Orthodox Christian, committed a grave sin, and behaved like a Protestant, life would be bliss:
I would only have to repent for it in the privacy of my own heart and not even need to confess it.
That's easy.
So - are protestants saved if they are not engaged in the sacraments????
Zoxasi, there seems to be this "half-truth" theory amongst some of our clergy. Well they have the same Christology, which is certainly not always true and a reflection on their clear ignorance of protestantism, so they are technically the same. What!? That is probably the most insane statement I have ever heard, why would the rules be different for those who protest the church, the sacraments, etc. just because they "believe in Christ" and as I said they do not all have the same Christology as us, in fact most of them do not. This would be akin to considering Islam Christian, St John of Damascus refers to Islam as a cult, in the context of it having been from Christian roots. The major problem is the adoption of liberal ideology, or a liberal mentality. Some of our clergy find it necessary to do and say things to NOT upset people. If we do this, we are doomed. Nobody can turn a person from Orthodox or from Christ, it is an impossibility. John 6:64, Christ CLEARLY says that anyone who comes to him, it has been willed by God. How exactly can I or anyone interfere with the will of God?
It is one thing to worship heretically out of ignorance, but to knowingly bring this into the church is a blatant disregard for Christ. Our leaders need to do something before all of our churches resemble St Marks in LA and all of our priests act like Anthony Messah.
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=10823.msg131906#msg131906 date=1299159231] ... and all of our priests act like Anthony Messah.
Well if that is not a personal judgment of someone, then what is?
Before personally attacking priests, consider the opposing side. Why do you think all these priests are doing things like this? Have they been Satanically corrupted by the world and only a few have not been influenced by it? What are they acting out of? Is it Satanic influence or out of love?
Well it is easy for whole generations to become confused and the enemy of our souls is straining with all his energy to corrupt the Church. We have seen that a modern Westernised corrupt iconography has also become popular among Orthodox Christians, so it is not impossible to imagine that other modern liberal non-Orthodox Western influences should also have some impact.
I have to say that the Coptic Orthodox priests I know and respect most have not been affected by these influences.
It is NEVER a matter of saying 'well can so-and-so be wrong'. It it ALWAYS a matter of comparing our beliefs and behaviour with the Tradition of the Church. And it is that Tradition which condemns these influences as non-Orthodox, and even anti-Orthodox.
We are all of us liable to be deceived, even when we mean well. (I do not know any of these priests and would not want to criticise any in any case).
It is VERY CLEAR how we should live and what we should believe and teach. Introducing Protestant elements is just not acceptable.
[quote author=servant33 link=topic=10823.msg131919#msg131919 date=1299168233] [quote author=Ioannes link=topic=10823.msg131906#msg131906 date=1299159231] ... and all of our priests act like Anthony Messah.
Well if that is not a personal judgment of someone, then what is?
Before personally attacking priests, consider the opposing side. Why do you think all these priests are doing things like this? Have they been Satanically corrupted by the world and only a few have not been influenced by it? What are they acting out of? Is it Satanic influence or out of love?
I am not judging him as a person, I love him and pray for him, I am judging some of his actions and things he has said.
[quote author=Stavro link=topic=10823.msg131868#msg131868 date=1299093705] If we stop short of issuing an anathema against Protestantism as a whole, declaring them to be outside the grace of God and with no access to salvation, all this discussion is useless.
wow!! how tragic!! if the above quote, speak on behalf of true orthodoxy... everyone of us would be anathema, including the orthodox people, and particularly the one who produced such statement!! for who gave the orthodox people to mandate anathemize anyone on this planet???... Cursing people is pagan, islamic way of thinking! indeed, the word anathema is to be found in the bible, but never used to promote orhtodox, or any, sectarianism! the one who asks the question whether or not protestants are 'saved' or 'saveable' should rather wonder if anybody ,whether orthodox or protestant, who raises such questions havs experienced anything to do with salvation. St. Paul said: 'If anyone does not love the lord Jesus Christ let him be anathema'. (1Cor. 16:22) If St Paul had in mind orthodox sectarianism he would have made it clear. but he mentions nothing to support such thinking. this distortion comes out of a corrupt unredeemed and unregenerated heart. How could a protestant subscribe to such faith where people get anathemized if they are different??.. There is a big difference between 'if anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ' and 'if anyone does not love the orthodoxchurch'. and yet this is not obvious to some fanatic orthodox. and it cannot be as long as the spirit of sharia law is at work in the mind who reads 2 Cor. 16:22. May God have mercy on us all!
[quote author=servant33 link=topic=10823.msg131919#msg131919 date=1299168233] [quote author=Ioannes link=topic=10823.msg131906#msg131906 date=1299159231] ... and all of our priests act like Anthony Messah.
Well if that is not a personal judgment of someone, then what is?
Before personally attacking priests, consider the opposing side. Why do you think all these priests are doing things like this? Have they been Satanically corrupted by the world and only a few have not been influenced by it? What are they acting out of? Is it Satanic influence or out of love?
I disagree. Ioannes is not saying that this person is bad or that person is good. We don't care who is bad or good.
What he is saying is that he hopes that no priests ACT like Fr. Anthony Messiha. What's so bad about that?
I love Bishop Boulis. I just hope that no other bishop behaves like him with respect to his charismatic/pro-protestant mannerisms.
What's so bad about that?
I really don't like guitars and rock bands in our church, and it worries me hearing Church servants promote this and say "We ought to encourage clapping and singing in our prayer meetings so that the youth can come to the Orthodox Church".
I think the best option for us is really to try and pray in our services without Coptic FOR A SHORT WHILE, especially in congregations where the youth are going elsewhere. If they are complaining that they cannot pray in a COC because of tradition, then just cut the Arabic and Coptic and stick to English.
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=10823.msg131922#msg131922 date=1299169331] [quote author=servant33 link=topic=10823.msg131919#msg131919 date=1299168233] [quote author=Ioannes link=topic=10823.msg131906#msg131906 date=1299159231] ... and all of our priests act like Anthony Messah.
Well if that is not a personal judgment of someone, then what is?
Before personally attacking priests, consider the opposing side. Why do you think all these priests are doing things like this? Have they been Satanically corrupted by the world and only a few have not been influenced by it? What are they acting out of? Is it Satanic influence or out of love?
I am not judging him as a person, I love him and pray for him, I am judging some of his actions and things he has said.
This thread has gone downhill. I really get upset when I see people do their best to demonize others by twisting others words. Lightning if you do not have a proper argument in which to defend protestantism, then perhaps it is time to question it as opposed to twisting peoples words around to try and make Orthodoxy as a whole look bad. It deeply troubles me that anyone would defend this kind of belief. Lightning you have taken one verse and built a whole, false, argument from it. What of 2 Tim 4:3 in which St. Paul clearly states that in that time, the endtimes, many will not follow sound doctrine. What is this doctrine? This is the Orthodox doctrine that we have followed for over 2,000 years. I would appreciate it if you would stop this madness and try to understand the difference between the belief and the person, and please stop purposely misinterpreting what people are saying in an attempt to demonize them and or Orthodoxy, its silly and shows a complete lack of respect. I am sure you will understand.
If you are protestant and are here, not for inquiry, but for debate then leave.
i even included the quote i referred to, so you cannot say i am misinterpreting/twisting words. meanwhile you have not connected with my point, in fact you naturally avoided it. i am not demonizing anyone, i am just bringing under the spot light the sectarianism promoted here by some fanatic orthodox. if this is your core value, i am not surprised you don't like my posts. and since you asked me to leave, i wouldn't be surprised if you begun to threaten me. this is the fundamentalists' pattern. muslims do the same and the world is getting used to it. on the other hand, you didn't have to turn this argument into a war zone. you could just use reasoning to prove that orthodoxy as promoted here is not about sectarianism. instead you chose to 'kick me out of here' cos i dare to challenge some of your thoughts ... your response simply shows that your religion is ultimately about anatemizing people who are different (please refer to the quote you did not bother to read before starting to reply) , lack of dialog and aggression if not approval is not on offer.
I posted a reply to the non-sense of lightening, but it does not appear in the thread. If a moderator has deleted it, I would appreciate a notification with a clarification.
[quote author=lightening link=topic=10823.msg131930#msg131930 date=1299180509] i even included the quote i referred to, so you cannot say i am misinterpreting/twisting words. meanwhile you have not connected with my point, in fact you naturally avoided it. i am not demonizing anyone, i am just bringing under the spot light the sectarianism promoted here by some fanatic orthodox. if this is your core value, i am not surprised you don't like my posts. and since you asked me to leave, i wouldn't be surprised if you begun to threaten me. this is the fundamentalists' pattern. muslims do the same and the world is getting used to it. on the other hand, you didn't have to turn this argument into a war zone. you could just use reasoning to prove that orthodoxy as promoted here is not about sectarianism. instead you chose to 'kick me out of here' cos i dare to challenge some of your thoughts ... your response simply shows that your religion is ultimately about anatemizing people who are different (please refer to the quote you did not bother to read before starting to reply) , lack of dialog and aggression if not approval is not on offer.
What are you even talking about? I said if you are protestant, referring to everyone in general since I used no names, and are here for debate and not inquiry than leave. What in the name of God are you even talking about? Your slinging insults around and YES you misinterpreted what was said. OMG This is why protestantism should not be allowed within 50 miles of our churches, notice I referred to the belief not the person. All your arguments are worded as such that I would have to automatically acknowledge that I or others here defending the faith are sectarian or fundamentalist. So far I have been accused of being like the pharisees and muslims. Thanks for the ad hominim attacks and insults. YOU are personally proving why protestantism is from the devil.
i wonder how protestantism can 'travel' by it self and come as close as '50 miles' to an orthodox church without a person being involved, so that you can keep at bay the 'ism and not the person. but anyway, i can see the levels of ability of making an argument that is on offer in this 'debate' so i think it is wise to consider this case closed.
please accept my sincere apologies for any offence you (whoever may be concerned) may have taken. thank you. :)
[quote author=lightening link=topic=10823.msg131930#msg131930 date=1299180509] i even included the quote i referred to, so you cannot say i am misinterpreting/twisting words. meanwhile you have not connected with my point, in fact you naturally avoided it. i am not demonizing anyone, i am just bringing under the spot light the sectarianism promoted here by some fanatic orthodox. if this is your core value, i am not surprised you don't like my posts. and since you asked me to leave, i wouldn't be surprised if you begun to threaten me. this is the fundamentalists' pattern. muslims do the same and the world is getting used to it. on the other hand, you didn't have to turn this argument into a war zone. you could just use reasoning to prove that orthodoxy as promoted here is not about sectarianism. instead you chose to 'kick me out of here' cos i dare to challenge some of your thoughts ... your response simply shows that your religion is ultimately about anatemizing people who are different (please refer to the quote you did not bother to read before starting to reply) , lack of dialog and aggression if not approval is not on offer.
Lightening, if I can make one small request: Feel free to disagree with Ioannes or anyone else here all you want, but can you PLEASE stop insinuating that the people who disagree with you are in some way behaving like Muslims or "Islamically"? This is offensive, and beyond what is necessary to make your point. "Muslim" is not shorthand for "anyone who behaves or argues in a manner you don't like". Muslims have very specific, blasphemous religious views that no Orthodox person (and hopefully no Protestant) would find in the least bit agreeable, so being compared to one (even if for the purpose of highlighting what you see as common "fundamentalist" tendencies) is a huge slap in the face.
As to the accusation that has led you to insult Ioannes, and through him all Christians who might disagree with you, I can only remind you the problems of one day are sufficient for it. No one has threatened you, and unless anyone actually does, you are worrying about a hypothetical situation and using it as a pretext to insult and confront people. Please don't do that. I know it's hard not to do and that we all do it sometimes, but this is not the first time that I've seen this sort of posting from you, and frankly it is worrying and drags down any conversation you are a part of.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10823.msg131932#msg131932 date=1299181856] [Moderator: I deleted it because it was unnecessarily and personally offensive]
Thanks for taking the time to clarify.
I do not think it was offensive. The truth simply hurts. The person of lightening does not concern me, but his/her ideas do. They are non-sense and a product of ignorance and pride.
Everytime we discuss anything with Protestants, they take us on a guilt trip of "lack of ove" and "being fanatic" and we let ourselves be sidetracked by self questioning. It is better to eliminate non-sense of lightening and [Moderated] from such topics in order to facilitate a more fruitful discussion. What will a Protestant contribute to a topic like the one at hand?
My participation in this topic was aimed to show that the problem is within the Church. Moderating my post is an example of those self destructive actions that are aimed at appeasing the enemy on the expense of the truth.
If you think that I am soft on error then you have never done the basics of reading my posts or finding out my views on anything. That I disagreed with your post means only that I felt you were personally offensive.
I am moderating your post again as you continue to exceed the bounds of acceptable language.
Please do not insult me just because I moderated you.
It is clear that we are just fighting now, and it is not beneficial to our fasting. We are usually not dealing with heretics on this forum! We are dealing often times with people who are confused over the subject or who are still youth and there is no reason to use harsh words with them.
I was not planning to share this, but I have decided to. I came on this site about 1 to 2 years ago under my dad's account and posted on something about Protestantism. Needless to say I was wrong about what I wrote. The response I got was very sharp saying it was people like me who ruined the church etc. If someone had kindly explained it to me there would not have been an issue. I was not a heretic going around the church, I was confused and didn't have a full Orthodox understanding of what I was talking about.
It is important to remember that the Church Fathers were dealing with full heretics. They were not dealing with an average person who did not fully understand something. Surely you don't believe that St. Athanasius would have taken this tone against someone who was confused about the topic!
Please pray for me and that we may all have a blessed fast.
There are people here that are confused, and I accept that, and there are people here for the sole purpose of fighting with others in an attempt to justify their beliefs. Arius was clearly a heretic and many people tried to correct him, but he was a priest and was confused about the nature of Christ, he just did not listen. St John Chrysostom was very sharp tongued against the jews. St Polycarp referred to Marcion of Sinope as "the first born of satan" and Polycarp was a disciple of St John the Apostles. I dont feel anyone here has used that sharp of language, besides those arguing in favor of protestantism. This is why I stated that if your here for a fight, leave. I had tried repeatedly, as did Fr. Peter, to explain our position and was completely ignored. I cannot explain how disgusted I am at the behavior of some of these people, it is usually me that I am mostly disgusted with, but this time it is a few others. If you can top me, thats sad.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10823.msg131942#msg131942 date=1299185925] Stavro,
If you think that I am soft on error then you have never done the basics of reading my posts or finding out my views on anything. That I disagreed with your post means only that I felt you were personally offensive.
I am moderating your post again as you continue to exceed the bounds of acceptable language.
Please do not insult me just because I moderated you.
Stating my disagreement with your moderating actions should not be translated into an attack on your ideas or character. I respect you and respect your Orthodoxy, but we can disagree. If in previous posts I have exceeded my limits with me, forgive me and do not let it carry over here.
The bounds of acceptable language is different from one person to another. Describing a Protestant as a pagan is not an insult, but rather a description of his/her spiritual state from my point of view.
I personally think that Protestants should be eliminated from orthodox forums unless they are around to inquire and learn. There are plenty of heretical forums that they can join and celebrate their heresies together. We have only a handful of orthodox forums and sites and we should try to keep them pure.
The thing is we must speak in kindness with our brothers and that is often the best way to explain things. I think we can all agree that lightening is not Arius nor Marcion. Even they had things explained to them kindly many times, and when they did not accept that they were proved wrong, and then they deserved whatever came to them. I agree that the language was not very sharp, but it would still make someone get defensive. We don't need to be telling people to leave the forum, but rather explain to them in all kindness several times, and if after that they still decide to proclaim their beliefs, then they should be asked to stop posting.
Even St. Cyril wrote to Nestorius: "To the Most Pious and Devout fellow minister Nestorius " He explained all to him in Love, however he was also the number one opposition to him and he was very very firm with him. However, this in now way contradicts what was done by St. Polycarp or St. John Chrysostom, as St. Cyril also spoke out against Nestorius' beliefs very harshly.
I agree with stavro, protestantism is pagan. The god they worship is a god of their own creation, one they are comfortable with, one that serves them, that is under their feet. Anba Bola, you are speaking of heretics that were within the church, Marcion was a bishop, as was Nestorious. Stating to our Orthodox brothers and sisters that protestantism is a heresy that is greatly influencing our church is not wrong. Stating it is a form of paganism is not wrong either, in fact there is plenty of evidence to support it. Protestantism was created by the devil in order to confuse and deceive, he has masked heresy as Christianity. Making it easier and much more appealing, while making subtle changes, unnoticeable to most people, in true doctrine making it heretical. Creating a liberal belief system in which the person is the center, the person is safe once they proclaim their faith, and the person can believe whatever they wish! There are protestant denominations with lesbians as their pastor, or that serve communion (albeit not the actual body of Christ, thank God) to dogs!
When I correct my son, many times I do speak in a peaceful quiet tone, but I cannot tell my son that he is correct when he is doing something incorrect, how well do you think that will work in his upbringing? Sometimes I must raise my voice and be stern. Otherwise if he thinks that I condone his actions, he will continue in his error. I speak to Orthodox much different than I speak to non-Orthodox, I am much more direct with my Orthodox brethren.
My post was a very neutral one. I did not advocate anything in specific, nor condemn any actions. Simply that the church must be willing to make changes - that are not against the faith - to win souls to Christ's Kingdom, is something I think we can all agree with. The disagreement comes with what those changes are and whether they are against the faith. It takes wisdom and the guidance of the Holy Spirit to determine that. I believe you are guided by neither, but out of a deep love for orthodoxy that causes you to fear all things foreign to it, although they might not be against the faith or intrinsically wrong.
To say what I said is heretical is to come at my post with an extreme amount of baggage, which you obviously come with. Your resentment towards protestantism is very clear from all your posts. And once being a protestant yourself you are obviously on a campaign to make sure it is seen as a completely non-Christian and heretical sect.
Second of all, the Orthodox church prides herself on cherishing the virtue of humility. You have raised yourself to the level of Church father and are haphazardly calling anything and anyone you want heretical. I reject the idea that you are the authority on what is orthodox. You believe you can call people who post on this forum heretical and even go so far to call members of the clergy heretical. It is unfortunate that Fr. Peter will censor comments by others that seem offensive. But apparently calling someone a heretic isn't so bad!
You make blanket statements about churches in Los Angeles - a place you probably have never visited - that is just childish and immature and shows your level of insecurity. Maybe some activities are becoming more protestant. But to outright call dozens of churches protestant is an arrogant statement to say the least. We have some of the most blessed clergy and people in Los Angeles.
May Christ soften our hearts and grant us the His wisdom and love.
Thank you unworthy1 for your comments. First of I will again make it clear that I refer to the belief system as heretical, not the people. I do believe certain things need to change, such as using english only during the liturgy, or any service for that matter. Your post was extremely vague in what you meant by change, I was led to believe that by change you meant in terms of protestantism, if that is not what you meant at all, then yes I am in the wrong. I also reject the idea that I am an authority on anything Orthodox, I am happy that you agree. I am sorry you feel that my statement about churches like St. Marks in LA are blanket statements, but these are based on facts. It is no secret to anyone that many of these churches on the west coast have adopted protestant ideas, and songs, to "attract youth".
I am not sure that I am on a campaign to make sure everyone views protestantism as non-Christian and heretical, that itself is an assumption based on what? Some posts on a thread about protestantism? I am sad that your reply was filled with animosity and based mostly on assumptions. I have provided tons of evidence, even enough for two books. I have posted plenty of evidence on the FB group Orthodox Purity, not to mention here. Yet that is never taken into account. You like many others accuse me of attacking people, I am attacking their beliefs and or their actions, not them personally. But believe as you wish.
Comments
"... to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law,that I might win those who are under the law;to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God,but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law;to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you." -1 Cor. 9:20-23
Now, as St. Paul altered himself to win some people to the Kingdom of God, we must do the same. BUT, also as St. Paul alters himself, he makes a parenthetical remark that it was with limits. He never went against the truth, which is Christ, yet he remained under His law.
We too should not be afraid to change in order to win souls for the Kingdom of God, but at the same time we should follow the example of St. Paul and understand our boundaries and never go against our faith.
Again, a delicate balance that we pray the Spirit will guide us in understanding.
I do not think Paul changed the faith one iota to win anyone. He would know that conversions made by such means are not lasting, having been a sincere convert himself.
I never said St. Paul changed anything regarding the faith. In fact, I went out of my way to say he did not. But some alteration occurred so that he could gain more people for Christ who might have otherwise perished. St. Paul was wise and the Holy Spirit guided him every step of the way. He was able to distinguish between things critical to the faith and those that are not. He acted accordingly and converted multitudes to the faith.
Our problem is we cannot make this distinction. So out of fear and a genuine love for our church we block any and all change. Some of it for good reason, others, for not so good reasons.
Of course it affects people's salvation. Orthodoxy is the truth, to deny this is not to be Orthodox at all.
In light of what you have said Fr Peter, I believe what H.G. Bishop Moussa (Bishop of Youth) has said is extremely irresponsible and certainly unorthodox.
There's no two ways about it. You cannot say that its "OK" to go to Protestant Churches, and the ONLY thing that distinguishes Orthodox Christians and Protestant Christians is the path to the same destination: one takes longer and one is shorter.
I feel that even if Protestants are saved, he is not doing justice to the Coptic Orthodox Church, NOR is he appreciating the zealous movement of Coptic Orthodox Christians INTO the Protestant Churches. I think he has NO IDEA of this.
Does H.G. realize that Protestants have no clergy? Does he understand that Protestants have NO priesthood, and ultimately NO Sacraments. Does he realize that if we all became protestant, that would render his position in the Church USELESS??? What would be the need of Bishops and priests in the COC if we could be saved WITHOUT Graces from the sacraments??
What's the point of that!!!
He ought to be an advocate for Orthodoxy, not an apologist for Protestantism.
This is still an interesting point, and I know MANY MANY MANY Coptic Servants in my CHurch who feel that this "zealousness" towards the Coptic Orthodox Church is totally unwarranted and fanatical, and that salvation can be achieved through other Churches / denominations.
They always tell me that we are just "ONE ROUTE" to the same destination.
How far is this true??
As I explained earlier, Orthodox Soteriology is based on Baptism (A priest baptises us in water).
Protestant Soteriology is based SOLELY on faith - saved by Grace through faith, where baptism is only an expression of faith, but entirely unnecessary for salvation.
The Bible clearly tells us that UNLESS we partake of the Holy Communion, we have no life in us. If Protestants do not partake of this, what life would they have in them?
The question that we should be asking now is:
* Is there a false sense of security within the protestant faithful??
* Are Copts in jeapardy of their own salvation IF they attend BOTH Coptic and Protestant churches??
One thing is for sure: H.G Bishop Moussa is totally ignorant of the fact that protestantism is creeping into our Church and is replacing Orthodox Spirituality with Protestant Philosophy. He has no idea of this.
The blocking of a few protestant songs from our Church might help, but its not just the songs, we need to block their ideologies.
You cannot imagine how far this has gone. I have witnessed even Protestantised Coptic Orthodox Christians CORRECT and shout at our own Coptic Priests for a sermon they've given because it is against what they've learnt in the protestant churches.
WHAT IS THIS!!!!!!!!!!!?????????
IM FURIOUS!!
Have you forgotten the words of Christ in Mt 5:13: "“You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men." We are to be as salt and preserve, otherwise we will be overrun by heretics. Your words and behavior disgust me, if indeed you are Orthodox and not just pretending. Advocating heresy makes my stomach turn, and to do it with such ease disturbs me even more.
Unworthy1 is from L.A., that makes a lot of sense, the Coptic churches out there are pretty much protestant.
If we stop short of issuing an anathema against Protestantism as a whole, declaring them to be outside the grace of God and with no access to salvation, all this discussion is useless.
Why do we care if Orthodox visit Protestant places, if it does not affect their salvation? We offer orthodoxy as the better alternative, and not the absolute truth, and therefore we are destined to lose the battle as we have been doing for the past 40 years.
Anba Moussa, the YOUTH bishop, has said long time ago that Protestants do not perish and they get saved. He said that Orthodoxy is the easier way for salvation or the straight way, but protestantism is a "zig-zag" way. Ultimately both lead to salvation. Why should anybody care then?
Well, my last post was in response to this comment.
But regardless - are protestants "saved"?
They keep on telling us that we are not saved, but are THEY saved??
if they were not baptised and refute baptism
If they deny the importance of Holy Communion as a Sacrament and confession - are THEY saved??
Why, you know what?? If I, as a Coptic Orthodox Christian, committed a grave sin, and behaved like a Protestant, life would be bliss:
I would only have to repent for it in the privacy of my own heart and not even need to confess it.
That's easy.
So - are protestants saved if they are not engaged in the sacraments????
YES OR NO??
It is one thing to worship heretically out of ignorance, but to knowingly bring this into the church is a blatant disregard for Christ. Our leaders need to do something before all of our churches resemble St Marks in LA and all of our priests act like Anthony Messah.
... and all of our priests act like Anthony Messah.
Well if that is not a personal judgment of someone, then what is?
Before personally attacking priests, consider the opposing side. Why do you think all these priests are doing things like this? Have they been Satanically corrupted by the world and only a few have not been influenced by it? What are they acting out of? Is it Satanic influence or out of love?
I have to say that the Coptic Orthodox priests I know and respect most have not been affected by these influences.
It is NEVER a matter of saying 'well can so-and-so be wrong'. It it ALWAYS a matter of comparing our beliefs and behaviour with the Tradition of the Church. And it is that Tradition which condemns these influences as non-Orthodox, and even anti-Orthodox.
We are all of us liable to be deceived, even when we mean well. (I do not know any of these priests and would not want to criticise any in any case).
It is VERY CLEAR how we should live and what we should believe and teach. Introducing Protestant elements is just not acceptable.
Father Peter
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=10823.msg131906#msg131906 date=1299159231]
... and all of our priests act like Anthony Messah.
Well if that is not a personal judgment of someone, then what is?
Before personally attacking priests, consider the opposing side. Why do you think all these priests are doing things like this? Have they been Satanically corrupted by the world and only a few have not been influenced by it? What are they acting out of? Is it Satanic influence or out of love?
I am not judging him as a person, I love him and pray for him, I am judging some of his actions and things he has said.
If we stop short of issuing an anathema against Protestantism as a whole, declaring them to be outside the grace of God and with no access to salvation, all this discussion is useless.
wow!! how tragic!! if the above quote, speak on behalf of true orthodoxy... everyone of us would be anathema, including the orthodox people, and particularly the one who produced such statement!! for who gave the orthodox people to mandate anathemize anyone on this planet???... Cursing people is pagan, islamic way of thinking!
indeed, the word anathema is to be found in the bible, but never used to promote orhtodox, or any, sectarianism!
the one who asks the question whether or not protestants are 'saved' or 'saveable' should rather wonder if anybody ,whether orthodox or protestant, who raises such questions havs experienced anything to do with salvation.
St. Paul said: 'If anyone does not love the lord Jesus Christ let him be anathema'. (1Cor. 16:22) If St Paul had in mind orthodox sectarianism he would have made it clear. but he mentions nothing to support such thinking. this distortion comes out of a corrupt unredeemed and unregenerated heart. How could a protestant subscribe to such faith where people get anathemized if they are different??..
There is a big difference between 'if anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ' and 'if anyone does not love the orthodox church'. and yet this is not obvious to some fanatic orthodox. and it cannot be as long as the spirit of sharia law is at work in the mind who reads 2 Cor. 16:22.
May God have mercy on us all!
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=10823.msg131906#msg131906 date=1299159231]
... and all of our priests act like Anthony Messah.
Well if that is not a personal judgment of someone, then what is?
Before personally attacking priests, consider the opposing side. Why do you think all these priests are doing things like this? Have they been Satanically corrupted by the world and only a few have not been influenced by it? What are they acting out of? Is it Satanic influence or out of love?
I disagree. Ioannes is not saying that this person is bad or that person is good. We don't care who is bad or good.
What he is saying is that he hopes that no priests ACT like Fr. Anthony Messiha. What's so bad about that?
I love Bishop Boulis. I just hope that no other bishop behaves like him with respect to his charismatic/pro-protestant mannerisms.
What's so bad about that?
I really don't like guitars and rock bands in our church, and it worries me hearing Church servants promote this and say "We ought to encourage clapping and singing in our prayer meetings so that the youth can come to the Orthodox Church".
I think the best option for us is really to try and pray in our services without Coptic FOR A SHORT WHILE, especially in congregations where the youth are going elsewhere. If they are complaining that they cannot pray in a COC because of tradition, then just cut the Arabic and Coptic and stick to English.
What's so bad about that???
[quote author=servant33 link=topic=10823.msg131919#msg131919 date=1299168233]
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=10823.msg131906#msg131906 date=1299159231]
... and all of our priests act like Anthony Messah.
Well if that is not a personal judgment of someone, then what is?
Before personally attacking priests, consider the opposing side. Why do you think all these priests are doing things like this? Have they been Satanically corrupted by the world and only a few have not been influenced by it? What are they acting out of? Is it Satanic influence or out of love?
I am not judging him as a person, I love him and pray for him, I am judging some of his actions and things he has said.
What did he say/do the most that has upset you??
If you are protestant and are here, not for inquiry, but for debate then leave.
meanwhile you have not connected with my point, in fact you naturally avoided it.
i am not demonizing anyone, i am just bringing under the spot light the sectarianism promoted here by some fanatic orthodox. if this is your core value, i am not surprised you don't like my posts. and since you asked me to leave, i wouldn't be surprised if you begun to threaten me. this is the fundamentalists' pattern. muslims do the same and the world is getting used to it.
on the other hand, you didn't have to turn this argument into a war zone. you could just use reasoning to prove that orthodoxy as promoted here is not about sectarianism. instead you chose to 'kick me out of here' cos i dare to challenge some of your thoughts ...
your response simply shows that your religion is ultimately about anatemizing people who are different (please refer to the quote you did not bother to read before starting to reply) , lack of dialog and aggression if not approval is not on offer.
i even included the quote i referred to, so you cannot say i am misinterpreting/twisting words.
meanwhile you have not connected with my point, in fact you naturally avoided it.
i am not demonizing anyone, i am just bringing under the spot light the sectarianism promoted here by some fanatic orthodox. if this is your core value, i am not surprised you don't like my posts. and since you asked me to leave, i wouldn't be surprised if you begun to threaten me. this is the fundamentalists' pattern. muslims do the same and the world is getting used to it.
on the other hand, you didn't have to turn this argument into a war zone. you could just use reasoning to prove that orthodoxy as promoted here is not about sectarianism. instead you chose to 'kick me out of here' cos i dare to challenge some of your thoughts ...
your response simply shows that your religion is ultimately about anatemizing people who are different (please refer to the quote you did not bother to read before starting to reply) , lack of dialog and aggression if not approval is not on offer.
What are you even talking about? I said if you are protestant, referring to everyone in general since I used no names, and are here for debate and not inquiry than leave. What in the name of God are you even talking about? Your slinging insults around and YES you misinterpreted what was said. OMG This is why protestantism should not be allowed within 50 miles of our churches, notice I referred to the belief not the person. All your arguments are worded as such that I would have to automatically acknowledge that I or others here defending the faith are sectarian or fundamentalist. So far I have been accused of being like the pharisees and muslims. Thanks for the ad hominim attacks and insults. YOU are personally proving why protestantism is from the devil.
but anyway, i can see the levels of ability of making an argument that is on offer in this 'debate' so i think it is wise to consider this case closed.
please accept my sincere apologies for any offence you (whoever may be concerned) may have taken.
thank you. :)
i even included the quote i referred to, so you cannot say i am misinterpreting/twisting words.
meanwhile you have not connected with my point, in fact you naturally avoided it.
i am not demonizing anyone, i am just bringing under the spot light the sectarianism promoted here by some fanatic orthodox. if this is your core value, i am not surprised you don't like my posts. and since you asked me to leave, i wouldn't be surprised if you begun to threaten me. this is the fundamentalists' pattern. muslims do the same and the world is getting used to it.
on the other hand, you didn't have to turn this argument into a war zone. you could just use reasoning to prove that orthodoxy as promoted here is not about sectarianism. instead you chose to 'kick me out of here' cos i dare to challenge some of your thoughts ...
your response simply shows that your religion is ultimately about anatemizing people who are different (please refer to the quote you did not bother to read before starting to reply) , lack of dialog and aggression if not approval is not on offer.
Lightening, if I can make one small request: Feel free to disagree with Ioannes or anyone else here all you want, but can you PLEASE stop insinuating that the people who disagree with you are in some way behaving like Muslims or "Islamically"? This is offensive, and beyond what is necessary to make your point. "Muslim" is not shorthand for "anyone who behaves or argues in a manner you don't like". Muslims have very specific, blasphemous religious views that no Orthodox person (and hopefully no Protestant) would find in the least bit agreeable, so being compared to one (even if for the purpose of highlighting what you see as common "fundamentalist" tendencies) is a huge slap in the face.
As to the accusation that has led you to insult Ioannes, and through him all Christians who might disagree with you, I can only remind you the problems of one day are sufficient for it. No one has threatened you, and unless anyone actually does, you are worrying about a hypothetical situation and using it as a pretext to insult and confront people. Please don't do that. I know it's hard not to do and that we all do it sometimes, but this is not the first time that I've seen this sort of posting from you, and frankly it is worrying and drags down any conversation you are a part of.
[Moderator: I deleted it because it was unnecessarily and personally offensive]
Thanks for taking the time to clarify.
I do not think it was offensive. The truth simply hurts. The person of lightening does not concern me, but his/her ideas do. They are non-sense and a product of ignorance and pride.
Everytime we discuss anything with Protestants, they take us on a guilt trip of "lack of ove" and "being fanatic" and we let ourselves be sidetracked by self questioning. It is better to eliminate non-sense of lightening and [Moderated] from such topics in order to facilitate a more fruitful discussion. What will a Protestant contribute to a topic like the one at hand?
My participation in this topic was aimed to show that the problem is within the Church. Moderating my post is an example of those self destructive actions that are aimed at appeasing the enemy on the expense of the truth.
If you think that I am soft on error then you have never done the basics of reading my posts or finding out my views on anything. That I disagreed with your post means only that I felt you were personally offensive.
I am moderating your post again as you continue to exceed the bounds of acceptable language.
Please do not insult me just because I moderated you.
I was not planning to share this, but I have decided to. I came on this site about 1 to 2 years ago under my dad's account and posted on something about Protestantism. Needless to say I was wrong about what I wrote. The response I got was very sharp saying it was people like me who ruined the church etc. If someone had kindly explained it to me there would not have been an issue. I was not a heretic going around the church, I was confused and didn't have a full Orthodox understanding of what I was talking about.
It is important to remember that the Church Fathers were dealing with full heretics. They were not dealing with an average person who did not fully understand something. Surely you don't believe that St. Athanasius would have taken this tone against someone who was confused about the topic!
Please pray for me and that we may all have a blessed fast.
Stavro,
If you think that I am soft on error then you have never done the basics of reading my posts or finding out my views on anything. That I disagreed with your post means only that I felt you were personally offensive.
I am moderating your post again as you continue to exceed the bounds of acceptable language.
Please do not insult me just because I moderated you.
Stating my disagreement with your moderating actions should not be translated into an attack on your ideas or character. I respect you and respect your Orthodoxy, but we can disagree. If in previous posts I have exceeded my limits with me, forgive me and do not let it carry over here.
The bounds of acceptable language is different from one person to another. Describing a Protestant as a pagan is not an insult, but rather a description of his/her spiritual state from my point of view.
I personally think that Protestants should be eliminated from orthodox forums unless they are around to inquire and learn. There are plenty of heretical forums that they can join and celebrate their heresies together. We have only a handful of orthodox forums and sites and we should try to keep them pure.
In any case, no big deal.
Even St. Cyril wrote to Nestorius: "To the Most Pious and Devout fellow minister Nestorius "
He explained all to him in Love, however he was also the number one opposition to him and he was very very firm with him. However, this in now way contradicts what was done by St. Polycarp or St. John Chrysostom, as St. Cyril also spoke out against Nestorius' beliefs very harshly.
When I correct my son, many times I do speak in a peaceful quiet tone, but I cannot tell my son that he is correct when he is doing something incorrect, how well do you think that will work in his upbringing? Sometimes I must raise my voice and be stern. Otherwise if he thinks that I condone his actions, he will continue in his error. I speak to Orthodox much different than I speak to non-Orthodox, I am much more direct with my Orthodox brethren.
My post was a very neutral one. I did not advocate anything in specific, nor condemn any actions. Simply that the church must be willing to make changes - that are not against the faith - to win souls to Christ's Kingdom, is something I think we can all agree with. The disagreement comes with what those changes are and whether they are against the faith. It takes wisdom and the guidance of the Holy Spirit to determine that. I believe you are guided by neither, but out of a deep love for orthodoxy that causes you to fear all things foreign to it, although they might not be against the faith or intrinsically wrong.
To say what I said is heretical is to come at my post with an extreme amount of baggage, which you obviously come with. Your resentment towards protestantism is very clear from all your posts. And once being a protestant yourself you are obviously on a campaign to make sure it is seen as a completely non-Christian and heretical sect.
Second of all, the Orthodox church prides herself on cherishing the virtue of humility. You have raised yourself to the level of Church father and are haphazardly calling anything and anyone you want heretical. I reject the idea that you are the authority on what is orthodox. You believe you can call people who post on this forum heretical and even go so far to call members of the clergy heretical. It is unfortunate that Fr. Peter will censor comments by others that seem offensive. But apparently calling someone a heretic isn't so bad!
You make blanket statements about churches in Los Angeles - a place you probably have never visited - that is just childish and immature and shows your level of insecurity. Maybe some activities are becoming more protestant. But to outright call dozens of churches protestant is an arrogant statement to say the least. We have some of the most blessed clergy and people in Los Angeles.
May Christ soften our hearts and grant us the His wisdom and love.
I am not sure that I am on a campaign to make sure everyone views protestantism as non-Christian and heretical, that itself is an assumption based on what? Some posts on a thread about protestantism? I am sad that your reply was filled with animosity and based mostly on assumptions. I have provided tons of evidence, even enough for two books. I have posted plenty of evidence on the FB group Orthodox Purity, not to mention here. Yet that is never taken into account. You like many others accuse me of attacking people, I am attacking their beliefs and or their actions, not them personally. But believe as you wish.