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Are Coptic Christians Arabs?
Hi,
I have heard from bishops that Coptic Christians are not Arabs. That this is a culture/language imposed on them. But given the fact that those who are Coptic Orthodox in Egypt - speak, read and write in Arabic, and have adapted to the Arabic culture - then why would they not see themselves still as arabs?
Are there any Coptic Orthodox Christians here that DO consider themselves as Arab?
I know many many muslims who consider themselves as Coptic Muslims. If these were the indigenous Copts who became muslim, and they are now arab, then how does that affect those who are Coptic Christians?
Here is the Dictionary Definition of the word "Arab":
1. a member of a Semitic people inhabiting Arabia and other countries of the Middle East.
2. a member of any Arabic-speaking people.
3. Arabian horse.
4. Now Offensive . a street peddler.
5. street Arab.
I'm just curious...
Thanks
I have heard from bishops that Coptic Christians are not Arabs. That this is a culture/language imposed on them. But given the fact that those who are Coptic Orthodox in Egypt - speak, read and write in Arabic, and have adapted to the Arabic culture - then why would they not see themselves still as arabs?
Are there any Coptic Orthodox Christians here that DO consider themselves as Arab?
I know many many muslims who consider themselves as Coptic Muslims. If these were the indigenous Copts who became muslim, and they are now arab, then how does that affect those who are Coptic Christians?
Here is the Dictionary Definition of the word "Arab":
1. a member of a Semitic people inhabiting Arabia and other countries of the Middle East.
2. a member of any Arabic-speaking people.
3. Arabian horse.
4. Now Offensive . a street peddler.
5. street Arab.
I'm just curious...
Thanks
Comments
If I speak Italian or eat Italian food it does not make me Italians.
We are not from the Semitic branch but rather from the Hamitic branch. The Book of Genesis identifies us being from Misriam the Son of Ham.
The Arab label mostly came from the English relative to the folly of the League of Nations, and the British conceptualization of how the world should be structured.
Moreover, Gamal Abdel Nasser, the pseudo-first President of the Republic of Egypt used that label and proclamation to try to build a confederacy among the Arab Nations, and to build a Union similar to the current European Union. It never worked, because not all Arabs are the same, and generally the can't stand each other.
in my view, we are Arabic... we speak the language, we occupy the land...
if you don't like Arabic because it being a pagan language... so was many if not all languages, except Hebrew!
EVEN COPTIC WAS A PAGAN LANGUAGE!!!
but here is the problem, when Islam took over the Arabic language, they became the Arabs, so now Arabs describe Islam!
with all honesty, I could careless what I'm called... what this reminds me of, is a person going on vacation to America, and ends up living there for an extra year... so he learns the language (enough to get through) he learns the culture (and makes it his own) he makes their way of living his, and ends up calling himself a American, and forgets his "mother" land!
what is your mother land? America? England? Egypt? Africa? Heaven?!
Neshkor Allah, Akhadna el baraka!
I am sorry if this topic has offended anyone. It wasn't my intention. There's a video of Bishop Thomas discussing this issue on youtube if you want to see it.
He categorically refutes us as being "Arabs".
I just wanted to know what the big deal was as being "arab" does not necessarily mean you are muslim.
So, let's see - would a Coptic Catholic be considered an "Arab"?
If an Egyptian muslim converts to Christianity, would he be considered still an Arab in your eyes??
i tell people (eg from english-speaking countries) that i study arabic at church in order to challenge people's stereotypes and to promote the idea of arab Christianity.
i also try hard to sing the coptic hymns to remember our heroes of the faith whose language was torn from their mouths.
Coptics are Hamites.
Arabs are Semites.
It is not the same issue with religion. "Coptic" is an appended word to the Orthodox Tradition that is associated with the Church of Alexandria.
The British Orthodox jurisdiction is "Coptic" in its Orthodox Tradition expression, and British in nationality.
There are converts in Mexico to the Coptic Orthodox Church but they are "Mexicans".
Because of the percentage factor of Coptic Orthodox Christianity in Egypt, the term for Coptic is congruent within the scope of nationality, religion, and Orthodoxy.
There is really no intermingling within Christianity and Islam, i.e., easy intermarriage. In essence, our lineage is pure from the Arab specter.
it's always good to have another language to praise God in.
E xplanation
O h
Mike
I agree.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
Perhaps we should concern ourselves less with wordly race or nationality we are, and strive to become citizens in the Eternal Kingdom.
Pray for me,
childoforthodoxy
I do not think the issue was relative to religion, since there are Arabs who are Chritian.
The issue is relative to ethnicity, nationality, and proper history.
Someone like Nasser tried, through his arrogance to assimilate the language as proof of nationality and culture in order
to justify a Pan-Arab Confederacy. He had the audacity to try to change 7000 years of history.
I am particular to introduce myself as a Coptic, and not simply as an Egyptian. I want to introduce and educate the Americans around me without having to be caustic on the issue.
There are shopkeepers in Los Angeles, CA and Bayonne, NJ that were shot because of such mis-identification. Not only that but we have an obligations to our forefathers, who not only preserved our faith but also to give us identity and history preservation.
I disagree with youwholely.
As an example, because of the Arabization, we have lost track of our own manuscripts that may enlighten us in our studies for our Christianity and theology. We have lost perspective on Biblical translations. We do not have a proper translation of our Bible, and have to rely on the Protestant versions. These are huge issues and cannot be placed to the side so simply.
If an Egyptian muslim converts to Christianity, would he be considered still an Arab in your eyes??
No , he became Coptic Christian again. ;D
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=9459.msg116602#msg116602 date=1279221894]
If an Egyptian muslim converts to Christianity, would he be considered still an Arab in your eyes??
No , he became Coptic Christian again. ;D
But let's say he traces his roots back to Turkey, or to Saudi Arabia (NOT Egypt) - how can become a Coptic Christian again??? His origins are not Coptic.
to read an account (jewish egyptian perspective), the classic book by bat ye'or is a start.
i have only read 25% of it, i understand it's in gruesome detail so it's not for sensitive people.
but to summarise, there was a lot of mixing of ethnic groups and a lot of slaughtering.
those who survived, even if they didn't convert, were of mixed ethnicity. eg a young woman who is violated but escapes goes on to have a half-arabic child, whether she likes it or not.
it's a bit like white british people (or european americans for that matter) trying to work out if they are english, welsh, scottish, irish or french.
i had a form from my new job on ethnicity that included all these categories.
it's crazy coz most of us have mixed ancestry. i ticked 4 boxes!
similarly south americans can often not prove how much african/indian/native american/european/other asian ancestry they have.
so, by all means preserve the beautiful coptic language and the information on the lives of the saints. but u may be wasting time if u try to prove yr 0% arabic
:)
Is this issue black and white to begin with?
We have adapted every aspect of their culture except for religion. There has been mixing. 90% of the Muslims in Egypt have Coptic roots. People have converted from Islam to Christianity and then back to Islam, and vice-versa. This issue has nothing to do with whether we want to be called Arabs, but I find it very difficult to justifiably deny that we are, at least, partially Arab.
There is no we and they, there is us... the Egyptian culture is unique as it is the mix of different cultures and it always was, Egypt has been like this long before Islam even existed, like in the Hellenistic era (Alexander the Great etc.) where Alexandria housed a mix of Greek, Asian, Hebrew and Egyptian culture...
so please think before you speak so ignorantly...
the 'pure pharaonice' race was long intermixed with other 'races' before Islam was even born..
even before the Hellenistic era, Egypt has always had white and darker kings.. different 'races' if you will
Ignorance is a very dangerous thing, very dangerous..
[coptic]Oujai q[/coptic][coptic]en P[/coptic][coptic][C[/coptic]
after all forgot to answer the thread question; basically my answer cannot be said any better than what ilovesaintmark, geomike, and pharoh123 already said. To summarise I am in Egyptian (Coptic) with Egyptian (pharaonic) roots who my ancestors converted to Christianity since the advent of the Greek into Egypt. Muslims who converted to Christianity on the other hand, are still counted as Arab but as ilovesaintmark excellently put it, they just belong nowadays to the Coptic Orthodox church, so they are mistakenly but fortunately for them called Copts.
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
'We' haven't just adapted 'their' culture!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There is no we and they, there is us... the Egyptian culture is unique as it is the mix of different cultures and it always was, Egypt has been like this long before Islam even existed, like in the Hellenistic era (Alexander the Great etc.) where Alexandria housed a mix of Greek, Asian, Hebrew and Egyptian culture...
so please think before you speak so ignorantly...
the 'pure pharaonice' race was long intermixed with other 'races' before Islam was even born..
even before the Hellenistic era, Egypt has always had white and darker kings.. different 'races' if you will
Ignorance is a very dangerous thing, very dangerous..
You're really splitting hairs here.
Egypt does not have the same racial mixture it did prior to the Muslim invasion. It is an Arab country. And with the exception of religion, Copts don't tend to stick out like a sore thumb in Egypt.
There was no "we" at the time. But there is now, and many like you refuse to accept it.
You're really splitting hairs here.
Egypt does not have the same racial mixture it did prior to the Muslim invasion. It is an Arab country. And with the exception of religion, Copts don't tend to stick out like a sore thumb in Egypt.
There was no "we" at the time. But there is now, and many like you refuse to accept it.
Oh, I think it is you who is not willing to accept, like many others, that you are not in any way superior or better because of where you were born... I don't think a small history lesson showing my point which is that Egypt has always housed people from different ethnicities is splitting hairs! You may have Greek, Macedonian, African (from other parts than Egypt), Persian, Roman or Arab blood flowing in your veins, and the fact that this thought could be problematic for some is frankly sickening!
I'm sure if all people in the world demanded to go back to how the world looked like 14 centuries ago, we'd have some problems!
There are some who want to create and foster disunity in a country like Egypt, trying to convince people who've lived together (yes, not always very well, I know about the tongues being cut out and the blue bruises from the crosses) for 14 centuries until they became one nation speaking the same languague, sharing the same culture, that they cannot coexist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..
that's alreayd very sad, but it's even sadder, when whey want to do so by spreading ignorant and wrong ideas...
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than a sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.”
First of all, Egyptian means Coptic... Arabic refers to something else, that is to say the Arab countries of the Gulf. This post is as I understand it talking about the roots, not the current status so to speak. Therefore, Egypt cannot be said to be an Arabic country. Yes it is now, and yes the influences we all know, and why it has become like this. People who were living in Egypt were pagans, but did accept the new religion introduced by the Greeks; does that make them Greek? No, still Copts (i.e. Egyptians) who became Christians. St. Mark came down to Egypt and established the Coptic Orthodox Church, and so Copts belonged mainly to this church. OK so fine so far.
Now the dilemma starts from the seventh century onwards (yes after the original people did get mixed with the Greeks, the Romans, and possibly the Phoenitians from Syria and Lebanon, but they were still called Copts, occupants of Egypt). The Arabs invaded Egypt and converted a great percentage people to Islam, and killed even a greater number - does that make them Copts? No... does that make the muslim converts Copts? Yes, essentially they are. However, it didn't stop at that... while not many of you would know the history of Egypt, I can tell you that waves of invasion came through to Egypt afterwards, including the Turks, the British and the French. Surely Egyptians mixed with all of such races, but does that make the Christians in Egypt Turks? French? British? No, why? Because the people came and invaded the land... it was not like the land was empty beforehand. A case rather dissimilar to what happened to America, Europe, and Australia!!! At least in those continents, the invasion was not that marked. Egypt can be called rather unique in that sense.
So deduction: the current Christians in Egypt have their roots from the pharaonic era they can be called Copts. Likewise the Catholics and the Protestants and even the muslim converts who all emanated from such an ethnic group.
Muslims can be traced back to either the Arabs, or the Turks, that is they are not Copts; how easy to do that is another matter for discussion.
Therefore we cannot compare this to the USA for example; but even if so, we will find that some people like calling themselves black Americans referring to Africa as their mother land, while they are still Americans. This may be similar to what the muslims in Egypt are trying to do, but at the end of the day they invaded our country Egypt, and so from a patriotic point of view, a proud one may be they should not be called "genuine" Copts, but invaders or intruders... hope that helps a bit
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Egypt's OFFICIAL name is called "THE ARAB REPUBLIC OF EGYPT". If you don't believe me, check any map or a new Egyptian passport.
So, my question, in all its simplicity, was : DO COPTIC CHRISTIANS recognise themselves as "ARABS"???
Is THIS your culture??
Yes or No??
Can everyone just respond with a simple "YES - WE ARE ARABS" - "NO - I DO NOT CONSIDER MYSELF AN ARAB".
Because EVERY muslim in Egypt accepts that they are Arabs. Is therefore the term "arab" insulting to Coptic Orthodox Christians??!!!
As for being "IGNORANT" - GodisLove - this entire question arose from H.G's Thomas who categorically rejects being called an "arab" . He says that Coptic Christians are NOT arabs. So, please don't attack me or anyone else for just giving their opinions? Im simply trying to know how Coptic Christians feel abuot this?
Personally speaking, I do not see myself as an Arab. The "Arab" Culture encompasses language, religion, national identity. I can barely put a sentence together in Arabic, I cannot stand the Shisha/water-pipe, and I'm not muslim.. so, I wouldnt consider this as my culture. I'm from Egypt, I love Egypt, its my country, but i do personally find it VERY hard to say that I am an Arab. In fact, the thought of just saying it makes me sick.
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
Oh, I think it is you who is not willing to accept, like many others, that you are not in any way superior or better because of where you were born... I don't think a small history lesson showing my point which is that Egypt has always housed people from different ethnicities is splitting hairs! You may have Greek, Macedonian, African (from other parts than Egypt), Persian, Roman or Arab blood flowing in your veins, and the fact that this thought could be problematic for some is frankly sickening!
I'm sure if all people in the world demanded to go back to how the world looked like 14 centuries ago, we'd have some problems!
There are some who want to create and foster disunity in a country like Egypt, trying to convince people who've lived together (yes, not always very well, I know about the tongues being cut out and the blue bruises from the crosses) for 14 centuries until they became one nation speaking the same languague, sharing the same culture, that they cannot coexist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..
that's alreayd very sad, but it's even sadder, when whey want to do so by spreading ignorant and wrong ideas...
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than a sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.”
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than a sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." Then stop answering before you actually look at what I said.
I'm not willing to accept that I'm not superior because of where I was born? Show me where I even began to imply that I thought I was. My blood from my ancestors of 1400 years ago doesn't mean a thing. So let's say I have a little Greek in me. Throw in some Macedonian while you're at it. Don't you think that if I were any different from the people living in Egypt right now, I'd be able to tell right off the bat that am? I look like them. I speak like them. I act like them. But to you, the fact that I may have outside blood in me is what changes the whole equation. Those days are long gone, and because of that 1400 year barrier, I probably have more Arab blood in me than anything else. If WE hadn't racially/ethnically/culturally mixed, the Copts might not have lasted all these years.
Do you both consider yourselves as ARAB?
Yes or No?
And do you find this title insulting for you??
Thanks