'European' and 'Arab' are not nationalities, are they? They are two of the big mankind groups that populate the Earth all of them being the descendants of the first man and woman Adam and Eve, who were created by God in His image. They do have very different cultures and languages but they are all human.
Isaiah 56 6 “Also the sons of the foreigner Who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him, And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants— Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And holds fast My covenant— 7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain, And make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices Will be accepted on My altar; For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”
[quote author=John_S2000 link=topic=9459.msg121880#msg121880 date=1289300223] 'European' and 'Arab' are not nationalities, are they? They are two of the big mankind groups that populate the Earth all of them being the descendants of the first man and woman Adam and Eve, who were created by God in His image. They do have very different cultures and languages but they are all human.
Isaiah 56 6 “Also the sons of the foreigner Who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him, And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants— Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And holds fast My covenant— 7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain, And make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices Will be accepted on My altar; For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”
What about Arab Christians?
GBU
John,
haha please don't tell me the term "European Arab" exists.
Well look, i feel the term "arab" is derogatory. Personally. I'm not an arab.
Are there any other Coptic Christians who feel that being called an Arab is derogatory for them and does not define who they are???
I think that we have to struggle against creating stereotypes and treating all people as if they were the same.
The English have a 1000 year antipathy towards the French who are our natural enemy. But in fact we know that people are not stereotypes, and we have warm and friendly relations with those French people we meet on holiday. Stereotypes have some value when describing how a group might act politically and as a state but they do not help us usually to understand individuals.
It seems to me that we cannot say that Coptic Christians are Arabs because firstly there are Coptic Christians who are not Middle Eastern at all. But also secondarily because no Christian should be defined by a political or geographical label.
I am a Christian from Europe but I am not a European Christian as if that modifies my Christian faith.
In terms of ethnic groups are we not agreed that the ethnic stock of the Coptic community in Egypt is not Arab. The Copts can trace their heritage back to the native Christian population of Egypt.
But the history of the Arabs, or some of them at least, is also Christian. When St Jacob Baradeus was consecrated, an Arab bishop was also consecrated, George. The Arabs were Christian and in our communion. The Palestinians were Christian. The Syrians were Christian. There is a heritage to value and honour in all these places.
What I am trying to say is that we should not denigrate any ethnic groups because almost all, certainly in the Middle East, have a Christian heritage.
We need to be careful that when we condem the French we mean the actions of socialist and marxist unionists, or the political class. We do not mean that we condemn all French people.
Likewise with the Arabs. Which Arabs do we condemn? Not all by any means. Many are our brethren.
Well, I'm not saying that Arabs are bad or good.. and there are in fact Christian Arabs.. as much as there are Israeli Arabs. But I was just curious who is bothered by this? Who is bothered to be identified as an "arab" here in this forum?
It bothers me deeply. Why?? I don't know.. i think I'm just racist. lol
I don't know - but even H.G Bishop Thomas said "Coptic Christians are NOT arabs".
[quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=9459.msg121884#msg121884 date=1289306875] Why do you think it is derogatory, rather than just mistaken, to call you an Arab Christian?
Well, that's an interesting question. I feel it is derogatory, and that's why I was asking here: "does anyone here feel this is derogatory" for them to be called "Arabs"?
What did H.G mean when he said "Coptic Orthodox Christians are not arabs?" (did u see the videos I posted of him talking)?
Maybe its because, as a Christian, we feel that our Coptic culture was displaced and eradicated by the arab culture... and we identify ourselves as Coptic Christians not "Arab" Christians.
Is it not the case that ethnically speaking you are not an Arab, and culturally speaking you are not entirely/completely/partially Arab either.
Is it not the case that you are only an Arab in potentio because Egypt is called 'the Arab Republic of Egypt', and there is a sense that everyone in the Middle East, dominated by Islam, must be an Arab?
Are you a little like a Welshman living in a border town in England who is told he is English because he lives in England and watches English TV, but he insists, properly, that he is not English but Welsh because his ancestors were all Welsh and he is only living in England because the English conquered his Welsh homeland a millenia ago?
No. Arabic doesn't define me personally. Although I was born in Egypt, the term Arab, as far as I'm concerned is what a Yemeni, a Qatari, a Saudi, and a palestinian would identify themselves as. These are arabs.
Now, let's ask ourselves if we have ANYTHING in common with them:
* They are muslim * They speak Arabic * They use water pipes
I am not muslim, and my arabic is very weak.
Maybe - just MAYBE, in my heart, there is a lack of respect towards these cultures for their lack of culture that I refuse to be part of. I find them extremely hostile towards foreigners and people who are not muslim. I don't really use the Shisha (water pipe).
I dont therefore even want to identify myself as an Arab because of this. if Egypt went and changed its name to the Islamic Republic of Egypt - does that encompass me?
When you have an islamic republic (either pakistan, iran etc..) - what are the religious minorities in that country? You've just gone off and islamized them.
The same with Egypt. We have been "arabized" against our will. We have our own language: Coptic, and our own traditions. As Coptic Christians, we even have our own Calendar.
Maybe I have a racism problem I need to deal with.. im not sure. But, now I live in Europe, in a Christian country, its life fish to water. Everything that my country stands for is really fine with my religion.
Let's look at a few things in the Egyptian/Arab Culture :
When you get married, you give the woman a shabka. This is like a dowry. I find this dumb. I find this backward. I find this like buying a cow. Is this at ALL Christian?? No! Yet Coptic Christians do this. This is an Arab-ic tradition that they do.
Women say "Well.. if he loves me and values me, he should buy me a shabka that's worthy of me".
But - this is typical muslim thinking. The man is buying you already with his life through the sacrament of Marriage. Do you need money for it?? I'm all for engagement rings, wedding rings etc.. this is fine.. but REASON for getting it is something I disagree with. Buying a girl an engagement ring should be a sign of love. But the shabka - in the arabic term/sense, is NOT a sign of love at all... its a sign of commerce. In fact, you get it back if the relationship fails. Its totally commercial.
So, even cultural things that are Arabic, i not only disagree with, but I can't say I have even much respect for. So, why should I be identified as an "arab"??? What for?
I am sure you're not a racist but your opinion may seem a bit colonial. Most oriental cultures have this 'dowry' (whatever it's called) as some kind of commitment gift to the bride and this helps to prove the seriousness of the marriage proposal, along with many more characteristic customs in different geographical areas, especially when the two families are involved. It is not unique to the Arabic or Islamic cultures. Only in recent times and in liberal countries that these customs became simpler and less classic.
Many of these customs also have their charm and are considered practical expressions of respect and official vows of love. It is when materialistic attitudes are prevalent versus frugal and realistic ones that it turns into a real commercial situation. BTW Muslims can legally marry with an symbolic extreme minimum of commitment money.
I'd like to add that it is no more practically wise to think there are still '100% pure races' due to centuries of mingling, wars, conversions, travels, emigrations, etc. for instance allow me to say you cannot be 100% sure you do not have few genes of Arabic origin, neither do I. Remember humans are one blood after all.
Also if a culture does not suit a groom then it is better and safer for him to chose a bride that has his same culture to avoid possible future culture conflicts between them.
Just a note that the dowry was paid in England until the end of the 19th century, and it was designed to provide a financial foundation for a married couple, and to provide some provision for the wife if the marriage broke down. I believe the idea goes back at least to the Greeks and Romans.
[quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=9459.msg121906#msg121906 date=1289339518] Thanks for the interesting posts Zoxasi and John.
Just a note that the dowry was paid in England until the end of the 19th century, and it was designed to provide a financial foundation for a married couple, and to provide some provision for the wife if the marriage broke down. I believe the idea goes back at least to the Greeks and Romans.
Father Peter
Hi Fr Peter,
This dowry or Shabka is nothing as honourable as what you have in the UK.. its used for purposes of showing and pride. If the girl gets a cheap dowry, she will feel insulted. We are talking about 3 or 4 months salary here to buy her this shabka.. and when your salary in Egypt is already small, you think this is wise??
Is this Coptic Culture? We are complaining about Christians eating hallal meat, but in Egypt and elsewhere they are engaging in islamic / arab culture when getting married. This is wrong - in my opinion.
You're not buying a cow!!!
Women tell men: "Buy me a shabka according to how much you think I'm worth". This is what her parents will tell the man. But what I don't understand is : HOW MUCH is the MAN WORTH!?? Why doesnt she get him a shabka also. So she's worth something that he's not? Her life is negotiated through commerce, and his isn't???
u know i think ethnicity and culture are not so important. my husband's wedding ring cost more than mine did (well, he has a bigger finger!), so does that make me less arabic? i hope not ;)
[quote author=mabsoota link=topic=9459.msg121908#msg121908 date=1289342403] u know i think ethnicity and culture are not so important. my husband's wedding ring cost more than mine did (well, he has a bigger finger!), so does that make me less arabic? i hope not ;)
I think they are very important.. but what is more important is that you, as a couple, share the same faith and values.
Anyway, i didnt want to make this into a discussion about marriage. I was just using the shabka as an example of the Egyptian/Arab culture that I do not uderstand, and that is foreign to me.
As for the word shabka we do not see it from the same cultural perspective you and I or as the Coptic in Egypt do. If it is a foreign idea to you then I'd like to explain the Coptic do not blindly follow anybody. The COC has a rite of prayers called engagement prayers (officially gaebe neyuot) during which Abouna also prays to bless the shabka as well as the engagement rings, so it is very different in essence and practice, only the term remains. Hey! Don't you wish you could buy a diamond ring when you want to express your love to the lady? Wouldn't she appreciate it?
This is like this total confusion many have about us saying the term allah for God (we use only in Arabic btw) that is derived from Eli same as saying God in English.
I read you're European and I respect you very much. After the decadence of the Roman empire, history records tell us Arabs later invaded a good part of Europe and stayed there for many years. These were followed later by many crusades and people went back and forth from overseas. The Turks invaded portions of Europe later on, etc. The French, Italian and English stayed in Africa, India, Asian countries etc. and the Spanish and Portuguese in the American continents. I forgot the Mongol and the Persian invasions and more others, also the wide traffic of slaves. Too many wars and movement of people. There had been surely some mixing of different people and cultures everywhere.
In Egypt, the current Egyptians (of all religions), though not all of them, were originally mostly Copts and much less were Romans. The proof: the number of Arabic troops that entered Egypt were about 20000 Muslims maximum. Many historians will agree that Egypt (Upper and Lower) was 16-20 million people at that time.
We Christians do not and cannot show disdain or hate towards anybody, it's not of our faith because we believe that "God is Love", we would become unloving in doing so, we can only defend our faith and God helps us. Sometimes Copts try to peacefully remind their Egyptian brothers of our original commonly rooted civilization, with the good intention of getting to live more naturally together in the same country after spending so many centuries together (with the good and the bad). Copts are not at all trying to invest in building up differences or destroy our intimate social duality that exists in the whole country, this would weaken us and cause harm to Egypt. They say: "Divide to conquer" we stand against that when we are aware of its threat. Unlike Sudan we are not divisible into two main northern and southern parts.
No worries, i never interpreted your tone as hostile whatsoever. This thread is totally subjective anyway: Im asking who "feels" that they are "Arab" ? Its a feeling.
Concerning the shabka.. this prayer is HARDLY done anymore. In fact, priests in the CoC do this less and less often. This is NOT a sacrament at all. Its a prayer to pray for the IDEA the intent of the two so that their direction towards marriage maybe blessed. IF there is (IF!!) a shabka has been offered, the priest just writes it down - and its cost. I've seen this many times.
A lot of Coptic Christians find this backwards and totally unspiritual. As Father Peter said, if it was money that was being put forward to invest in the wedding AND their married life then i would recommend this.. but you know VERY well this is not the case.
We are talking about men who have a salary of 2000 EGY pounds a month buying a diamond ring they can hardly afford ONLY so the girl has some sense of pride. Why on earth is the Coptic Orthodox Church blessing such foolish customs?? What for??
Concerning whether I am an Arab or European, I would say European because of the following:
a) If you asked me how I'm doing, I'd say I'm fine. If you asked 100 times afterwards in the SAME minute of conversation, I'll just get upset and irritated.
b) I hate bargaining. I'm happy to pay for something without bargaining. Arabs love to bargain.
c) I find some things in the arabic language dumb.
Look at this:
Complement: Enta menawar (you are bright) - Response: Min noorak (My light is coming from your light). This is total BS. And you HAVE to say it just to make people happy.
Complement (when someone sneezes): Allah ye barkak - Response: The response, as you know is SOOO long that people now just tell the person responding to SHUT UP because there's no time to listen to the response.
Complement: Nawart il balad (you've brightened the country) - Response: Dal balad minawar min noorak (No.. actually the country is bright, but the voltage of your light is what is causing it to be brighter) - again - total BS.
There are loads of these little complement/responses in the arabic language that are just fake complements. Pointless complements that are said ONLY for the response.
That's right people - if you don't respond correctly, you've offended the person. How dumb.
So let's say someone tells me :"Enta Minawar! Nawart Il balad, Nawart il internet, Nawart il DONIA!!" and if I respond with a simple: "Cheers, do you have the right time?"
I will be hated by that person...
You know.. as a kid, I used to find them really nice and fun and I found the arabs very warm with all these flowery words when I was young.. but that's just it: FLOWERY words, sweet hot air, which could end up an argument if you respond incorrectly.
d) I'm straight-forward
e) Im on time and being late is rude (as far as Im concerned).
f) I think men and women are equal - EVEN in marriage - the man shouldnt have to buy a woman a shabka because she's worth something. He is worth as much. He should buy the same for himself, or she should buy him a shabka also.
So explain that John2000 - if the shabka is spiritual , in your eyes, why doesnt the girl get the man a shabka also???? Are we sexist??
Thanks John200 for your response, nawart il internet ya basha. Take care and i'm not at all upset.
You talk as if everything Arab is bad, well, I beg to differ: what about Arabic music, calligraphy, poetry, philosophy etc. and I believe the Arabic language to be everything but dumb.. but I guess that's a matter of taste It is normal for cultures to intermix, ours was intermixed long before the Arab, Islamic conquest, don't forget: Hellenistic era: greek, persian, macedonian etc, Roman conquest and what about the many jews who used to live in Egypt.. etc. Please let us be reasonable..
[quote author=Truthsetsfree link=topic=9459.msg121940#msg121940 date=1289378720] You talk as if everything Arab is bad, well, I beg to differ: what about Arabic music, calligraphy, poetry, philosophy etc. and I believe the Arabic language to be everything but dumb.. but I guess that's a matter of taste It is normal for cultures to intermix, ours was intermixed long before the Arab, Islamic conquest, don't forget: Hellenistic era: greek, persian, macedonian etc, Roman conquest and what about the many jews who used to live in Egypt.. etc. Please let us be reasonable..
Hang on a second... i'm not talking as if its "bad".. im talking about how Coptic Christians feel about being called "arabs" ?
Personally, I find it insulting. But that's because I don't particularly appreciate that our culture and language was displaced in favour of the Arabic culture.
Listen, if you are proud to be an "arab" christian - great. Good for you.
However, I would agree with Bishop Thomas on this: MANY things in the Arabic culture CAME from Coptic Egypt and they adopted it as if it was their own.
This is a subjective issue. If you feel "proud" to be arab, then bully for you. I don't.
Matthew 5 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
1 Corinthians 10:22-24 22 Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He? 23 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful; all things are lawful for me, but not all things edify. 24 Let no one seek his own, but each one the other’s well-being.
No I am not upset if you'd describe me as an Arab, an European of any nationality, an Assyrian, an Asian, an African, an Aborigine, a Red Indian or an Indian and I am also a Coptic with components from the Mediterranean coasts. Spiritually I am a Christian following the Coptic Orthodox Church.
In summary, my Christian view to the world helps me to like, respect and value people everywhere, both ethnically and culturally. I refuse to generalize any negative judgment. I do not have to agree with or accept what is in direct conflict with my faith or to imitate what's wrong but I must first love my neighbor, it means I have also respect for him as another human being created in the image of God. There is goodness in man that deserves to be loved not just evil.
Proverbs 4:18 But the path of the just is like the shining sun, That shines ever brighter unto the perfect day.
[quote author=John_S2000 link=topic=9459.msg121993#msg121993 date=1289435517] Hi Zoxsasi,
I find great guidance from these verses:
Matthew 5 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
1 Corinthians 10:22-24 22 Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He? 23 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful; all things are lawful for me, but not all things edify. 24 Let no one seek his own, but each one the other’s well-being.
No I am not upset if you'd describe me as an Arab, an European of any nationality, an Assyrian, an Asian, an African, an Aborigine, a Red Indian or an Indian and I am also a Coptic with components from the Mediterranean coasts. Spiritually I am a Christian following the Coptic Orthodox Church.
In summary, my Christian view to the world helps me to like, respect and value people everywhere, both ethnically and culturally. I refuse to generalize any negative judgment. I do not have to agree with or accept what is in direct conflict with my faith or to imitate what's wrong but I must first love my neighbor, it means I have also respect for him as another human being created in the image of God. There is goodness in man that deserves to be loved not just evil.
Proverbs 4:18 But the path of the just is like the shining sun, That shines ever brighter unto the perfect day.
It's good to learn from this thread that if I convert to Coptic Orthodoxy I won't have to pretend to be Arab. ;D
This is one thing I have noticed over and over in discussions with my Christian friends from the Middle East (Lebanese, Syrian, Armenian, etc). Because the Christian communities existed all across the region before the Islamic-Arab invasion, the complete domination of Arabic via Islam creates a sort of "identity crisis" in the minority communities: Who are we? Where do we come from? How should we think of ourselves in relation to the majority? Because the native populations largely lost their pre-Islamic languages and cultures in the process of Arabization that came and still comes with adopting Islam (or even just being around a lot of Muslims, since their religion is modeled on the Arab conqueror Muhammad), it becomes that much easier for Arabs and other outsiders to discard or rewrite their histories. Not being from the Middle East myself, I can't say that I understand the pull of pan-Arabism, but I have known plenty of Christians who subscribe to it. And when I try to approach it rationally, it is not even so surprising: The average Lebanese Maronite is divorced from his Syriac heritage outside of an ever-shrinking percentage of the liturgy. Many of the Assyrian dialects are likely to disappear as the communities that speak them are experiencing a genocide of unthinkable magnitude in their Mesopotamian heartland. Coptic, as beautiful and ancient as it is, is not the native language of any given community. This is the linguistic reality of the region, and it's getting worse, not better, as the diversity of the countries concerned gives way to a stolid Arab-Islamic version of how the world should be.
Concerning the Arab Christians: Indeed they ought not be considered in the same manner as the Muslims. After all, they too existed in Middle East in the centuries before Islam was invented, yet they did not stifle let alone seek to eliminate the ethno-linguistic communities around them. Right now I am in the middle of a fascinating book on the history of Christianity in Iraq by Dr. Suha Rassam. She advances the idea that various Arab Christian tribes that had settled in what is now Iraq as early as the 4th century A.D. were actually 'Syrianized' (adopting Syriac language and culture) as a result of the thoroughly Assyrian/Syriac character of the country in which they found themselves. Others were not, and hence kept their Arabic language AND their Christianity, as they do to this day. It was only with the coming of the Arab-Muslims that being "Arab" was suddenly seen as something negative to the non-Arab Christians.
Are the Copts Arabs? I am only really comfortable or qualified to discuss such things from a linguistic perspective, but on that account: NO. Egyptian Arabic shows a large Coptic substratum, and it is a point of indisputable historical fact that the Coptic language is the native language of what is now called "Misr" by Arabs who can't wrap their tongues around the letter "p". I can respect the fact that many Muslim Egyptians apparently call themselves "Coptic Muslims" -- they are merely asserting a historically consistent identity for themselves, no different than Native Americans in the U.S.A. who maintain their tribal identities even if they don't speak their tribal languages, or for that matter Muslims in Maaloula, Syria, who maintain their Assyrian language and refuse to be Arabized just because they follow Islam. If only the rest of the so-called "Arab" world did not belong to a religion which spawns a culture that sees no value in such stances!
For instance, can any of you imagine any of these "Coptic Muslims" giving their "salat" in Coptic instead of Arabic? :o
Comments
Isaiah 56
6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”
What about Arab Christians?
GBU
'European' and 'Arab' are not nationalities, are they? They are two of the big mankind groups that populate the Earth all of them being the descendants of the first man and woman Adam and Eve, who were created by God in His image. They do have very different cultures and languages but they are all human.
Isaiah 56
6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”
What about Arab Christians?
GBU
John,
haha
please don't tell me the term "European Arab" exists.
Well look, i feel the term "arab" is derogatory. Personally. I'm not an arab.
Are there any other Coptic Christians who feel that being called an Arab is derogatory for them and does not define who they are???
Thanks
The English have a 1000 year antipathy towards the French who are our natural enemy. But in fact we know that people are not stereotypes, and we have warm and friendly relations with those French people we meet on holiday. Stereotypes have some value when describing how a group might act politically and as a state but they do not help us usually to understand individuals.
It seems to me that we cannot say that Coptic Christians are Arabs because firstly there are Coptic Christians who are not Middle Eastern at all. But also secondarily because no Christian should be defined by a political or geographical label.
I am a Christian from Europe but I am not a European Christian as if that modifies my Christian faith.
In terms of ethnic groups are we not agreed that the ethnic stock of the Coptic community in Egypt is not Arab. The Copts can trace their heritage back to the native Christian population of Egypt.
But the history of the Arabs, or some of them at least, is also Christian. When St Jacob Baradeus was consecrated, an Arab bishop was also consecrated, George. The Arabs were Christian and in our communion. The Palestinians were Christian. The Syrians were Christian. There is a heritage to value and honour in all these places.
What I am trying to say is that we should not denigrate any ethnic groups because almost all, certainly in the Middle East, have a Christian heritage.
We need to be careful that when we condem the French we mean the actions of socialist and marxist unionists, or the political class. We do not mean that we condemn all French people.
Likewise with the Arabs. Which Arabs do we condemn? Not all by any means. Many are our brethren.
Father Peter
It bothers me deeply. Why?? I don't know.. i think I'm just racist. lol
I don't know - but even H.G Bishop Thomas said "Coptic Christians are NOT arabs".
I am not a European. I am not British. I am English.
This matters from a political and cultural point of view, but in my congregation I welcome anyone from anywhere as members of the Kingdom of Heaven.
Why do you think it is derogatory, rather than just mistaken, to call you an Arab Christian?
Father Peter
Why do you think it is derogatory, rather than just mistaken, to call you an Arab Christian?
Well, that's an interesting question. I feel it is derogatory, and that's why I was asking here: "does anyone here feel this is derogatory" for them to be called "Arabs"?
What did H.G mean when he said "Coptic Orthodox Christians are not arabs?" (did u see the videos I posted of him talking)?
Maybe its because, as a Christian, we feel that our Coptic culture was displaced and eradicated by the arab culture... and we identify ourselves as Coptic Christians not "Arab" Christians.
Is it not the case that ethnically speaking you are not an Arab, and culturally speaking you are not entirely/completely/partially Arab either.
Is it not the case that you are only an Arab in potentio because Egypt is called 'the Arab Republic of Egypt', and there is a sense that everyone in the Middle East, dominated by Islam, must be an Arab?
Are you a little like a Welshman living in a border town in England who is told he is English because he lives in England and watches English TV, but he insists, properly, that he is not English but Welsh because his ancestors were all Welsh and he is only living in England because the English conquered his Welsh homeland a millenia ago?
Yes? No?
Father Peter
No. Arabic doesn't define me personally. Although I was born in Egypt, the term Arab, as far as I'm concerned is what a Yemeni, a Qatari, a Saudi, and a palestinian would identify themselves as. These are arabs.
Now, let's ask ourselves if we have ANYTHING in common with them:
* They are muslim
* They speak Arabic
* They use water pipes
I am not muslim, and my arabic is very weak.
Maybe - just MAYBE, in my heart, there is a lack of respect towards these cultures for their lack of culture that I refuse to be part of. I find them extremely hostile towards foreigners and people who are not muslim. I don't really use the Shisha (water pipe).
I dont therefore even want to identify myself as an Arab because of this. if Egypt went and changed its name to the Islamic Republic of Egypt - does that encompass me?
When you have an islamic republic (either pakistan, iran etc..) - what are the religious minorities in that country? You've just gone off and islamized them.
The same with Egypt. We have been "arabized" against our will. We have our own language: Coptic, and our own traditions. As Coptic Christians, we even have our own Calendar.
Maybe I have a racism problem I need to deal with.. im not sure. But, now I live in Europe, in a Christian country, its life fish to water. Everything that my country stands for is really fine with my religion.
Let's look at a few things in the Egyptian/Arab Culture :
When you get married, you give the woman a shabka. This is like a dowry.
I find this dumb. I find this backward. I find this like buying a cow.
Is this at ALL Christian?? No! Yet Coptic Christians do this. This is an Arab-ic tradition that they do.
Women say "Well.. if he loves me and values me, he should buy me a shabka that's worthy of me".
But - this is typical muslim thinking. The man is buying you already with his life through the sacrament of Marriage. Do you need money for it?? I'm all for engagement rings, wedding rings etc.. this is fine.. but REASON for getting it is something I disagree with. Buying a girl an engagement ring should be a sign of love. But the shabka - in the arabic term/sense, is NOT a sign of love at all... its a sign of commerce. In fact, you get it back if the relationship fails. Its totally commercial.
So, even cultural things that are Arabic, i not only disagree with, but I can't say I have even much respect for. So, why should I be identified as an "arab"??? What for?
I am sure you're not a racist but your opinion may seem a bit colonial. Most oriental cultures have this 'dowry' (whatever it's called) as some kind of commitment gift to the bride and this helps to prove the seriousness of the marriage proposal, along with many more characteristic customs in different geographical areas, especially when the two families are involved. It is not unique to the Arabic or Islamic cultures. Only in recent times and in liberal countries that these customs became simpler and less classic.
Many of these customs also have their charm and are considered practical expressions of respect and official vows of love. It is when materialistic attitudes are prevalent versus frugal and realistic ones that it turns into a real commercial situation. BTW Muslims can legally marry with an symbolic extreme minimum of commitment money.
I'd like to add that it is no more practically wise to think there are still '100% pure races' due to centuries of mingling, wars, conversions, travels, emigrations, etc. for instance allow me to say you cannot be 100% sure you do not have few genes of Arabic origin, neither do I. Remember humans are one blood after all.
Also if a culture does not suit a groom then it is better and safer for him to chose a bride that has his same culture to avoid possible future culture conflicts between them.
GBU
Just a note that the dowry was paid in England until the end of the 19th century, and it was designed to provide a financial foundation for a married couple, and to provide some provision for the wife if the marriage broke down. I believe the idea goes back at least to the Greeks and Romans.
Father Peter
Thanks for the interesting posts Zoxasi and John.
Just a note that the dowry was paid in England until the end of the 19th century, and it was designed to provide a financial foundation for a married couple, and to provide some provision for the wife if the marriage broke down. I believe the idea goes back at least to the Greeks and Romans.
Father Peter
Hi Fr Peter,
This dowry or Shabka is nothing as honourable as what you have in the UK.. its used for purposes of showing and pride. If the girl gets a cheap dowry, she will feel insulted. We are talking about 3 or 4 months salary here to buy her this shabka.. and when your salary in Egypt is already small, you think this is wise??
Is this Coptic Culture? We are complaining about Christians eating hallal meat, but in Egypt and elsewhere they are engaging in islamic / arab culture when getting married. This is wrong - in my opinion.
You're not buying a cow!!!
Women tell men: "Buy me a shabka according to how much you think I'm worth". This is what her parents will tell the man. But what I don't understand is : HOW MUCH is the MAN WORTH!?? Why doesnt she get him a shabka also. So she's worth something that he's not? Her life is negotiated through commerce, and his isn't???
This is so messed up.
Anyway, John: Im not an arab. I'm European.
my husband's wedding ring cost more than mine did (well, he has a bigger finger!), so does that make me less arabic?
i hope not ;)
u know i think ethnicity and culture are not so important.
my husband's wedding ring cost more than mine did (well, he has a bigger finger!), so does that make me less arabic?
i hope not ;)
I think they are very important.. but what is more important is that you, as a couple, share the same faith and values.
Anyway, i didnt want to make this into a discussion about marriage. I was just using the shabka as an example of the Egyptian/Arab culture that I do not uderstand, and that is foreign to me.
I am not attacking you it's just a discussion OK?
As for the word shabka we do not see it from the same cultural perspective you and I or as the Coptic in Egypt do. If it is a foreign idea to you then I'd like to explain the Coptic do not blindly follow anybody. The COC has a rite of prayers called engagement prayers (officially gaebe neyuot) during which Abouna also prays to bless the shabka as well as the engagement rings, so it is very different in essence and practice, only the term remains. Hey! Don't you wish you could buy a diamond ring when you want to express your love to the lady? Wouldn't she appreciate it?
This is like this total confusion many have about us saying the term allah for God (we use only in Arabic btw) that is derived from Eli same as saying God in English.
I read you're European and I respect you very much. After the decadence of the Roman empire, history records tell us Arabs later invaded a good part of Europe and stayed there for many years. These were followed later by many crusades and people went back and forth from overseas. The Turks invaded portions of Europe later on, etc. The French, Italian and English stayed in Africa, India, Asian countries etc. and the Spanish and Portuguese in the American continents. I forgot the Mongol and the Persian invasions and more others, also the wide traffic of slaves. Too many wars and movement of people. There had been surely some mixing of different people and cultures everywhere.
In Egypt, the current Egyptians (of all religions), though not all of them, were originally mostly Copts and much less were Romans. The proof: the number of Arabic troops that entered Egypt were about 20000 Muslims maximum. Many historians will agree that Egypt (Upper and Lower) was 16-20 million people at that time.
We Christians do not and cannot show disdain or hate towards anybody, it's not of our faith because we believe that "God is Love", we would become unloving in doing so, we can only defend our faith and God helps us. Sometimes Copts try to peacefully remind their Egyptian brothers of our original commonly rooted civilization, with the good intention of getting to live more naturally together in the same country after spending so many centuries together (with the good and the bad). Copts are not at all trying to invest in building up differences or destroy our intimate social duality that exists in the whole country, this would weaken us and cause harm to Egypt. They say: "Divide to conquer" we stand against that when we are aware of its threat. Unlike Sudan we are not divisible into two main northern and southern parts.
GBU
No worries, i never interpreted your tone as hostile whatsoever. This thread is totally subjective anyway: Im asking who "feels" that they are "Arab" ? Its a feeling.
Concerning the shabka.. this prayer is HARDLY done anymore. In fact, priests in the CoC do this less and less often. This is NOT a sacrament at all. Its a prayer to pray for the IDEA the intent of the two so that their direction towards marriage maybe blessed. IF there is (IF!!) a shabka has been offered, the priest just writes it down - and its cost. I've seen this many times.
A lot of Coptic Christians find this backwards and totally unspiritual. As Father Peter said, if it was money that was being put forward to invest in the wedding AND their married life then i would recommend this.. but you know VERY well this is not the case.
We are talking about men who have a salary of 2000 EGY pounds a month buying a diamond ring they can hardly afford ONLY so the girl has some sense of pride. Why on earth is the Coptic Orthodox Church blessing such foolish customs?? What for??
Concerning whether I am an Arab or European, I would say European because of the following:
a) If you asked me how I'm doing, I'd say I'm fine. If you asked 100 times afterwards in the SAME minute of conversation, I'll just get upset and irritated.
b) I hate bargaining. I'm happy to pay for something without bargaining. Arabs love to bargain.
c) I find some things in the arabic language dumb.
Look at this:
Complement: Enta menawar (you are bright) - Response: Min noorak (My light is coming from your light). This is total BS. And you HAVE to say it just to make people happy.
Complement (when someone sneezes): Allah ye barkak - Response: The response, as you know is SOOO long that people now just tell the person responding to SHUT UP because there's no time to listen to the response.
Complement: Nawart il balad (you've brightened the country) - Response: Dal balad minawar min noorak (No.. actually the country is bright, but the voltage of your light is what is causing it to be brighter) - again - total BS.
There are loads of these little complement/responses in the arabic language that are just fake complements. Pointless complements that are said ONLY for the response.
That's right people - if you don't respond correctly, you've offended the person. How dumb.
So let's say someone tells me :"Enta Minawar! Nawart Il balad, Nawart il internet, Nawart il DONIA!!" and if I respond with a simple: "Cheers, do you have the right time?"
I will be hated by that person...
You know.. as a kid, I used to find them really nice and fun and I found the arabs very warm with all these flowery words when I was young.. but that's just it: FLOWERY words, sweet hot air, which could end up an argument if you respond incorrectly.
d) I'm straight-forward
e) Im on time and being late is rude (as far as Im concerned).
f) I think men and women are equal - EVEN in marriage - the man shouldnt have to buy a woman a shabka because she's worth something. He is worth as much. He should buy the same for himself, or she should buy him a shabka also.
So explain that John2000 - if the shabka is spiritual , in your eyes, why doesnt the girl get the man a shabka also???? Are we sexist??
Thanks John200 for your response, nawart il internet ya basha. Take care and i'm not at all upset.
It is normal for cultures to intermix, ours was intermixed long before the Arab, Islamic conquest, don't forget: Hellenistic era: greek, persian, macedonian etc, Roman conquest and what about the many jews who used to live in Egypt.. etc.
Please let us be reasonable..
You talk as if everything Arab is bad, well, I beg to differ: what about Arabic music, calligraphy, poetry, philosophy etc. and I believe the Arabic language to be everything but dumb.. but I guess that's a matter of taste
It is normal for cultures to intermix, ours was intermixed long before the Arab, Islamic conquest, don't forget: Hellenistic era: greek, persian, macedonian etc, Roman conquest and what about the many jews who used to live in Egypt.. etc.
Please let us be reasonable..
Hang on a second... i'm not talking as if its "bad".. im talking about how Coptic Christians feel about being called "arabs" ?
Personally, I find it insulting. But that's because I don't particularly appreciate that our culture and language was displaced in favour of the Arabic culture.
Listen, if you are proud to be an "arab" christian - great. Good for you.
However, I would agree with Bishop Thomas on this: MANY things in the Arabic culture CAME from Coptic Egypt and they adopted it as if it was their own.
This is a subjective issue. If you feel "proud" to be arab, then bully for you. I don't.
I find great guidance from these verses:
Matthew 5
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so?
48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
1 Corinthians 10:22-24
22 Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He?
23 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful; all things are lawful for me, but not all things edify. 24 Let no one seek his own, but each one the other’s well-being.
No I am not upset if you'd describe me as an Arab, an European of any nationality, an Assyrian, an Asian, an African, an Aborigine, a Red Indian or an Indian and I am also a Coptic with components from the Mediterranean coasts. Spiritually I am a Christian following the Coptic Orthodox Church.
In summary, my Christian view to the world helps me to like, respect and value people everywhere, both ethnically and culturally. I refuse to generalize any negative judgment. I do not have to agree with or accept what is in direct conflict with my faith or to imitate what's wrong but I must first love my neighbor, it means I have also respect for him as another human being created in the image of God. There is goodness in man that deserves to be loved not just evil.
Proverbs 4:18
But the path of the just is like the shining sun,
That shines ever brighter unto the perfect day.
GBU
Hi Zoxsasi,
I find great guidance from these verses:
Matthew 5
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so?
48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
1 Corinthians 10:22-24
22 Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He?
23 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful; all things are lawful for me, but not all things edify. 24 Let no one seek his own, but each one the other’s well-being.
No I am not upset if you'd describe me as an Arab, an European of any nationality, an Assyrian, an Asian, an African, an Aborigine, a Red Indian or an Indian and I am also a Coptic with components from the Mediterranean coasts. Spiritually I am a Christian following the Coptic Orthodox Church.
In summary, my Christian view to the world helps me to like, respect and value people everywhere, both ethnically and culturally. I refuse to generalize any negative judgment. I do not have to agree with or accept what is in direct conflict with my faith or to imitate what's wrong but I must first love my neighbor, it means I have also respect for him as another human being created in the image of God. There is goodness in man that deserves to be loved not just evil.
Proverbs 4:18
But the path of the just is like the shining sun,
That shines ever brighter unto the perfect day.
GBU
wonderful post John! You said it very well!
This is one thing I have noticed over and over in discussions with my Christian friends from the Middle East (Lebanese, Syrian, Armenian, etc). Because the Christian communities existed all across the region before the Islamic-Arab invasion, the complete domination of Arabic via Islam creates a sort of "identity crisis" in the minority communities: Who are we? Where do we come from? How should we think of ourselves in relation to the majority? Because the native populations largely lost their pre-Islamic languages and cultures in the process of Arabization that came and still comes with adopting Islam (or even just being around a lot of Muslims, since their religion is modeled on the Arab conqueror Muhammad), it becomes that much easier for Arabs and other outsiders to discard or rewrite their histories. Not being from the Middle East myself, I can't say that I understand the pull of pan-Arabism, but I have known plenty of Christians who subscribe to it. And when I try to approach it rationally, it is not even so surprising: The average Lebanese Maronite is divorced from his Syriac heritage outside of an ever-shrinking percentage of the liturgy. Many of the Assyrian dialects are likely to disappear as the communities that speak them are experiencing a genocide of unthinkable magnitude in their Mesopotamian heartland. Coptic, as beautiful and ancient as it is, is not the native language of any given community. This is the linguistic reality of the region, and it's getting worse, not better, as the diversity of the countries concerned gives way to a stolid Arab-Islamic version of how the world should be.
Concerning the Arab Christians: Indeed they ought not be considered in the same manner as the Muslims. After all, they too existed in Middle East in the centuries before Islam was invented, yet they did not stifle let alone seek to eliminate the ethno-linguistic communities around them. Right now I am in the middle of a fascinating book on the history of Christianity in Iraq by Dr. Suha Rassam. She advances the idea that various Arab Christian tribes that had settled in what is now Iraq as early as the 4th century A.D. were actually 'Syrianized' (adopting Syriac language and culture) as a result of the thoroughly Assyrian/Syriac character of the country in which they found themselves. Others were not, and hence kept their Arabic language AND their Christianity, as they do to this day. It was only with the coming of the Arab-Muslims that being "Arab" was suddenly seen as something negative to the non-Arab Christians.
Are the Copts Arabs? I am only really comfortable or qualified to discuss such things from a linguistic perspective, but on that account: NO. Egyptian Arabic shows a large Coptic substratum, and it is a point of indisputable historical fact that the Coptic language is the native language of what is now called "Misr" by Arabs who can't wrap their tongues around the letter "p". I can respect the fact that many Muslim Egyptians apparently call themselves "Coptic Muslims" -- they are merely asserting a historically consistent identity for themselves, no different than Native Americans in the U.S.A. who maintain their tribal identities even if they don't speak their tribal languages, or for that matter Muslims in Maaloula, Syria, who maintain their Assyrian language and refuse to be Arabized just because they follow Islam. If only the rest of the so-called "Arab" world did not belong to a religion which spawns a culture that sees no value in such stances!
For instance, can any of you imagine any of these "Coptic Muslims" giving their "salat" in Coptic instead of Arabic? :o