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Coptic Evangelisation - Good news of Ophadece
Hi Ophadece,
I just remembered something that would bring a tear to your eye.
I was listening to a few hymns on YouTube.. someone kindly uploaded the tasbeha in English and put nice background images on it. It was very nice indeed.
Before changing the hymn, I had a brief look at the comments. This particular hymn (i think it was Arepsalin - O Sing Unto Him Who Was Cruficied For Us..) was quite nice.
MANY people were asking for the lyrics and they wanted to know where/how they could get the words to it.
It had something like 10,000 + views.
That's great. If we can evangelise by using our Coptic Melodies, then fine.. but people need to understand what is being said.
I just remembered something that would bring a tear to your eye.
I was listening to a few hymns on YouTube.. someone kindly uploaded the tasbeha in English and put nice background images on it. It was very nice indeed.
Before changing the hymn, I had a brief look at the comments. This particular hymn (i think it was Arepsalin - O Sing Unto Him Who Was Cruficied For Us..) was quite nice.
MANY people were asking for the lyrics and they wanted to know where/how they could get the words to it.
It had something like 10,000 + views.
That's great. If we can evangelise by using our Coptic Melodies, then fine.. but people need to understand what is being said.
Comments
God bless all your efforts Zoxsasi and the efforts of people preaching Christ to the nations by every means. Pray for us a lot please
Thanks Ophadece,
Please check it out the video. Im at work now so I dont have access to YouTube, but type in Coptic Hymns, find the hymn "O Sing Unto Him.. " (Arepsalin in English) and check out the number of hits... all these english people are asking for the lyrics and they think the hymn is pretty cool.
What worries is me is that they'll end up using it in their churches and forget about our Church. lol
Yalla...rabena ma3ana.
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
Is Cantor Sarkis an Armenian? It is an Armenian name?
no. he's eyptian....Actually He's Fr. Sarkis....some information i got:
this is from a book that we will soon publish (about the roumi explanation in kiahk vespers praises):
"Written by Father Sarkis who was known as Cantor Sarkis. He was from Old Cairo, Egypt. His father was Fr. Armia, the priest of Sts. Apakir and John Church in Old Cairo then He served in the church of the Resurrection in Jerusalem. Fr. Sarkis lived in the 15th century and was ordained a priest on the church of the Resurrection in Jerusalem with his father. There, he met many Greeks and learned from them the Greek language. He constructed some hymns in Greek and Coptic like “`Ari'alin” the Psali Watos for the three saintly children and the nine Greek parts that are chanted on the Saturday theotokia in the Kiahk vespers praise. The Greek parts are constructed to have his name spelled out on each first latter of the parts, “CARKIC AKI.” Fr. Sarkis departed around 1492 A.D.. May the blessing of his prayers be with us all, Amen.
Fr Peter, i got that comment before from ilovesaintmark here: http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php?topic=9254.0
In fact that makes me happy. That is an indirect message for them of the beauty of the Coptic hymns (even when translated), as you can see. Let them use it in their churches, but what will their bishops say? Hehe... in any case as I remember minagir said this hymn may have been written in the 14th or 15th century by cantor Sarkis - so I doubt it is a pharaonic tune anyway... yet it is Coptic.
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
Well, I know for one that Anba Angaelos is not a happy camper about them using our hymns. His explanation was more along the lines of them mimicking us, acting like us, but they are not us. We talked about this ages ago, so I only remember roughly what he said.
We talked about this after I told him I went to a Roman Catholic Church and heard them singing the EXACT same Coptic Orthodox hymns we have!!
Personally, if its the RC, I don't mind.. I recognize their priesthood, and I think their Church is a valid one.. but others using our hymns etc would annoy me a bit.
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
I think it would annoy you rightly so, as well as Bshp Angelos if they adopt it as theirs. I was thinking that they should pray using our hymns, but acknowledge that they are ours. Just my personal opinion.
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
Actually, now you reminded me.. that was what his problem was: that they took it as if its theirs, they took our spirituality as if its theirs, and that's not right because they are not part of our Church.
Its a bit like marketing.. someone steels your products and puts their labels (or logos) on it to get more customers. In fact, your own customers leave you to go to their church because they (the competition) have the products now that you need.
That leaves the CoC empty handed, out of pocket, out of customers.
We are only Orthodox Christians, or we are nothing. If we are Orthodox Christians then everything Orthodox belongs to ALL Orthodox Christians of whatever local cultural backgrounds.
When we visit an Armenian or an Ethiopian or Syrian Orthodox Church or any of our communities it is exactly the same as attending a Coptic Church. Either we belong entirely and completely all together as Orthodox or we do not belong to Orthodoxy at all.
Of course we usually understand more when we are in a Church that uses our own language and hymnody. But when we meet an Indian Orthodox bishop, or an Armenian bishop or any bishop in any of the local Orthodox Churches it is exactly the same as meeting a bishop of our own Coptic Patriarchate, unless it is our own bishop, and in that case the difference is only that he has pastoral responsibility for us.
We all belong together and compose One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
I hope that more and more we will experience this. I know for myself that I am deeply and richly blessed by being often able to meet bishops and priests from all of our communities in the Orthodox Church here in the UK, and the Oriental Orthodox Festival at which we all join to worship together is a wonderful expression of this.
Father Peter
They surely consider themselves Coptic Christians in communion with the Pope of Rome, so they would say that they are as entitled to use the Coptic hymnody as anyone else?
Father Peter
There were deacons there (Dressed up like us), and they were singing Psalm 150 (like us, same tune more or less).. and then they went to "Layl ol 3assha2 al serrie.. " (its a hymn in arabic we too sing during the Holy Communion.
During the communion, they behaved like us - how the deacon moves with the priest etc.. I think even the priest wasn't using wafers.. but it didnt look like wafers.
Well, firstly, the catholics in Egypt, like anywhere, don't sing Psalm 150 like us during the Holy Communion. In the RC, once Holy Communion starts, everyone is silent.. that's it.. its solomn.. very cold, and then someone sings something. It could be anything.
We always sing Psalm 150.. and its with the cymbals and triangle. They too had the cymbals and triangle.
How do you patent orthodox spirituality?
I guess that several Churches use Sarkis as the form of Sergius. Yes?
Certainly the Armenians do, which is why I wondered if he was part of the Armenian connection in Egypt.
Father Peter
If you mean the Catholics in Egypt I guess I am not sure what hymns they would be expected to sing?
They surely consider themselves Coptic Christians in communion with the Pope of Rome, so they would say that they are as entitled to use the Coptic hymnody as anyone else?
Father Peter
Oh .. that's a good point.
Which reminds me:
I had this chat with a Catholic deacon who said that given that Saint mark was Saint peter's secretary (lol) - that makes us actually an apostolic Church, because whether we like it or not, we are part of Rome.
And actually some Syrians do say that the Coptic Church should be subject to the Syrian Church because St Mark was the disciple of St Peter, and Antioch is the see of St Peter.
Personally I find all talk of who is subject to who rather disturbing.
Indeed when the Coptic Church was loosely in communion with Rome it was not surprising that Rome and Alexandria had completely different ideas of what being in communion might be.
Rome always does see union as subjection unfortunately.
Father Peter
If you mean the Catholics in Egypt I guess I am not sure what hymns they would be expected to sing?
They surely consider themselves Coptic Christians in communion with the Pope of Rome, so they would say that they are as entitled to use the Coptic hymnody as anyone else?
Father Peter
the reason for that is there exists the "Catholic Coptic Church" that is the other papacy line since the time of the schism. they do EVERYTHING exactly like us except for the catholic stuff (like the creed, the name of the pope...etc)....but we need to know that we are not in union with them.
Thanks minagir,
I guess that several Churches use Sarkis as the form of Sergius. Yes?
Certainly the Armenians do, which is why I wondered if he was part of the Armenian connection in Egypt.
Father Peter
well i think at some point of time the coptic church was influenced by them....so i wouldn't be surprised with a simple name in both traditions.
But they are not 'our hymns' surely. There is no such thing as 'our' anything in the Church.
We are only Orthodox Christians, or we are nothing. If we are Orthodox Christians then everything Orthodox belongs to ALL Orthodox Christians of whatever local cultural backgrounds.
When we visit an Armenian or an Ethiopian or Syrian Orthodox Church or any of our communities it is exactly the same as attending a Coptic Church. Either we belong entirely and completely all together as Orthodox or we do not belong to Orthodoxy at all.
Of course we usually understand more when we are in a Church that uses our own language and hymnody. But when we meet an Indian Orthodox bishop, or an Armenian bishop or any bishop in any of the local Orthodox Churches it is exactly the same as meeting a bishop of our own Coptic Patriarchate, unless it is our own bishop, and in that case the difference is only that he has pastoral responsibility for us.
We all belong together and compose One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
I hope that more and more we will experience this. I know for myself that I am deeply and richly blessed by being often able to meet bishops and priests from all of our communities in the Orthodox Church here in the UK, and the Oriental Orthodox Festival at which we all join to worship together is a wonderful expression of this.
Father Peter
DEar father Peter,
I completely disagree. Please note that those hymns were written specifically for the Coptic church. YEs there are other hymns which were borrowed from other churches especially the Greek Orthodox but that's not the case with all of them. You may be aware already that there is a move to curb the amount of hymns being borrowed willy nilly. YOu obviously know better than all of us that there is that need for demarcation lest people feel alienated. I find it hard to fathom that the British Orthodox church would borrow this very hymn for example or do without the liturgy of St James for St. BAsil for example. Yes we are all one, we are all Orthodox but we have different practices
I am not entirely sure what you mean. About borrowing from other traditions I mean.
Much of what we do in the Coptic Orthodox Church IS indeed borrrowed from other local Orthodox Churches, not least because in the past, before the Islamic invasions of so many Christian countries, there was a regular and constant inter-relation between the Churches. Indeed in the writings of the Fathers I cannot easily recall any passages where local Church culture was stressed. I mean that Orthodox Christians all related to each other as members of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, and none said, 'I am a Syrian Orthodox', 'I am a Coptic Orthodox', 'I am an Armenian Orthodox'. This way of thinking was alien to the Fathers.
We know for instance that the Fast of Nineveh was a Syrian fast which was introduced into Egypt in the past. Likewise we know that the Feast of the Nativity was a Roman feast and was only introduced into Egypt after some time. We can trace many of our liturgical elements from the Jerusalem and Palestinian Church. But we also know that in the other direction of travel, the other local Churches looked to Alexandria to provide an authoritative date for keeping Pascha each year. And we know that the Monastic tradition was exported from Palestine and Egypt to the West. There was a constant flow of spiritual and theological tradition from community to community, because all were members of ONE Church not many.
If we do not preserve our own traditions carefully then we have nothing to share with others. But we have always shared our Orthodox culture with others and received other's Orthodox culture as our own. The Armenians, for instance, had a period when they made great efforts in translating the tradition of the Syrian Orthodox and drawing on it in their own Church culture. The Georgian Church relied very much on Syrian Orthodox missionary monks to help establish their own local Church culture. Neither the Armenians nor the Georgians became Syrians. Likewise the Church in Ethiopia and Eritrea is markedly differerent from that of the Coptic Church. Yet the Ethiopian Church has always been most closely connected to the Coptic Church. In each case the local culture and the spiritual culture of the supporting Church have merged, and have drawn on even other Church cultures so that what results is both entirely Orthodox and entirely local to the particular people who have become Orthodox.
What will we do here in the UK where we have been placed with brothers and sisters who worship according to Armenian, Ethiopian, Eritrean, Indian, Syrian and British traditions? The Orthodox Church has never been impervious in the past. The history of vestments in all the Orthodox Churches for instance, shows a continuous influence of cultures and traditions. St Mark did NOT dress like His Holiness Pope Shenouda. More and more we must and will worship together here in the UK. What happens when we learn an ancient Armenian hymn which we find expresses some aspect of our faith? On what basis would it be wrong for Coptic Orthodox living in the UK to sing it in English, or even Armenian? What matters surely is that the hymn is Orthodox? At the last Pan-Orthodox liturgy a choir of Indian Orthodox taught us an Indian Orthodox hymn. It seems to me that this is what always has happened. When St Athanasius was in exile in Rome he must have worshipped with Roman Christians. When he was supported by the Western bishops at the Council of Sardica there were British bishops there voting in his favour, Britain was an Orthodox country of course. The Church was and has always been inter-connected both in terms of ecclesiastical politics but also in terms of spirituality and culture.
When St Augustine was sent by St Gregory the Great to evangelise the pagan peoples of England in the late 6th century he sent back some letters to the Pope of Rome asking questions. One of them was asking about the differences he found in the practices of the people's he travelled among to reach England, and then in England itself, where of course Christianity had existed since the beginning. I will quote the question and the answer..
Augustine’s Second Question—Whereas the faith is one and the same, why are there different customs in different Churches? and why is one custom of Liturgy observed in the holy Roman Church, and another in the Church of Gaul?
Pope Gregory answers.—You know, my brother, the custom of the Roman Church in which you remember that you were brought up. But my opinion is, that if you have found anything, either in the Roman, or the Gallican, or any other Church, which may be more acceptable to Almighty God, you should carefully make choice of the same, and sedulously teach the Church of the English, which as yet is new in the faith, whatsoever you can gather from the several Churches. For things are not to be loved for the sake of places, but places for the sake of good things. Choose, therefore, from every Church those things that are pious, religious, and right, and when you have, as it were, made them up into one bundle, let the minds of the English be accustomed thereto.
Now this says nothing about the Roman Christians stopping using the traditions they were used to, nor the Gallic Christians having to use those of Rome. But it does show us that even though we often imagine the Roman Church, which was Orthodox at this period of course, to be domineering, we can see that when it came to the evangelisation of the English people the Pope of Rome was insistent that St Augustine should use whatever Orthodox practices (not only those of Rome) which he found useful.
What am I saying?
i. That it is entirely and absolutely necessary that the Coptic Church cultural heritage be preserved.
ii. That we are entirely and absolutely of one Church with all other Orthodox in the UK. The Church is not divided into languages, but is only the community of Orthodox faithful in a place, and the community of Orthodox faithful in the whole world.
iii. That our mission to English speaking British people demands that we present the Gospel in English, drawing on whatever Orthodox practices are apporpriate.
iv. That our ministry as immigrants, if that is what we are, requires that each cultural community within the Orthodox Church in the UK, tries to fulfill the multiple requirements of preserving the cultural heritage it has received, offering pastoral care in a variety of languages to those who are new to this country, offering a means of welcome and participation in the Gospel in English to the vast majority of people that we have been made responsible for by God.
v. I do not believe that these items are all easy, or do not produce tensions. But it seems to me that God requires all of them from us.
vi. Absolutely I believe that we 6,000 or 12,000 Orthodox, together with not many more committed EO, are responsible for the 60,000,000 British people who speak English here in the UK. We are responsible for every soul that is unable to hear the Orthodox Gospel. I can find no example from Orthodox history where any non-Orthodox community has been required to learn another language to become Orthodox. Indeed in many cases the Orthodox incomers ever developed an alphabet and written language for the first time so that people could not only worship in their own language but also read the Bible in their own language. This seems to me to be a constant throughout the history of the Church.
I know that we seem to disagree, but I am not at all against the preservation of the Coptic language and culture, especially in Egypt. I believe that it is an important priority and that the Church should fund scholarships to encourage the highest level of knowledge. It is here in the UK where we have a command to evangelise, that I am personally committed to seeing all of the Orthodox communities using English as appropriate for mission to a great extent, by that I mean all Orthodox who are here, not just Copts by any means. But this also does not mean that Coptic and Arabic and Armenian and Ge'ez should not be used in those contexts in which it is also appropriate.
But I always have in mind the words of Pope Gregory.... things are not to be loved for the sake of places, but places for the sake of good things.
And the words of St Paul .... For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
Father Peter
Having read your post, I can say this is exactly what I meant. I may have misunderstood the first post, to which I disagreed, but I do agree completely with what you said in that last one. I think I am convinced with all of those arguments, not forgetting the cultural heritage of the Coptic church as well...
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]