verses of cymbals in English

manal1437

Does anyone have this in english (audio) so we can teach the Sunday School kids....Thanks

minatasgeel

[quote author=manal1437 link=topic=9916.msg121400#msg121400 date=1288144249]
Does anyone have this in english (audio) so we can teach the Sunday School kids....Thanks

you simply don't say them in english. and you won't find a recording in english.

geomike

why not teach them in Coptic so that they can actually say it in the liturgy and not just force the deacons to say it in English just so they can participate. People on this site recently (i am not talking about the thread starter, just other people) are trying to make everything in the church English, and that's just not going to happen. There are just some things that cannot be said in English and this is one of the many things that apply.

ophadece

Dear Geomike,
It is happening already. I heard it being sung in English (and in its joyful tune as well). Seriously, in some time we will not be singing Coptic again in the Coptic church. Why should we?
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]

Cyril97

In my church we sing every single thing in english!!  :'(  >:(

geomike

that's unfortunate. I know people keep arguing in church about how they don't understand what the deacons are saying, but that's what the powerpoint is for. It's even written in coptic-english if they would want to sing along.

ophadece

Yes Geomike, I admire your zeal but no one would listen trust me. The youth are too stubborn to listen - if you give them an inch they will take a yard and that is it.
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]

geomike

This is just ridiculous, in my church the youth are the people encouraging the coptic to be said and we don't have a problem with it at my church. It's a beautiful language especially when you use it while saying hymns.

peterfarrington

All languages are beautiful.  :)

ophadece

I agree with Father Peter that all languages are beautiful, and maybe even (as I heard someone here before) Italian sounds better than Coptic in faster-tempo hymns like[coptic] ari'alin[/coptic] for example, but certainly none of those languages will convey the meaning as Coptic can. This is the only point I think Father Peter may have never experienced (or has he?)... I do understand when he talks about experience with other people who thought Coptic hymns didn't attract them to church, and were in need for other things, but do we just replace them? I still don't think so...
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]

Zoxsasi

Italian in the tasbeha sounds great. Its the only language that works other than Coptic.

Having said that, I don't know why you would want to do the verses of the cymbals in English - the words are very straight forward to understand.

I have heard it in English actually.. its not bad. But, the tune is not exactly the same as in Coptic, and you'd have to go at a MUCH slower pace to make it sound right.

Zoxsasi

The mp3 of this is available - I have it on my PC at home, I think it was done by a Church in the states.

I'll try and upload it.

peterfarrington

I have to smile when you say that only Coptic hymns can convey truth. I understand that you will say that, but it is not true.

All languages are able to communicate the deep truths of our faith. What truths do you think are limited to Coptic? And since I imagine that you have had to learn Coptic as an English or Arabic speaker you are actually having to translate the meaning yourself?

The Greeks are sure there is no language like Greek. The English know there is no language like English. It is to be expected that all think most highly of their own language. But all concepts and all worship is entirely available to all in all the languages of the world.

So let me say again, what is unknowable to someone who is not a native Coptic speaker, and what does this mean in light of the fact that the Apostles and Fathers did not worship in Coptic?

God bless you

Father Peter

ilovesaintmark

Why is it that the aliens only speak English in Science Fiction movies?

mmatt95

Good question ILSM!
I felt like sharing a small story; we had a servant from Egypt who thaught her sundayschool class full of 8 year olds, that we need to learn coptic cause the angels praise God in heaven in coptic, they say Agios!!! Yah, i know, it would be hilarious if it wasnt such a serious error.

Ophadece, what do you think the apostles felt like when they abandoned their jewish musical tradition in order to win millions of people for Christ? The solution is easy, very easy. Have special services all in english or whatever language for new comers and those who dont wish to learn coptic, have special services for those who want only coptic, and have regular services for the majority of people, who'd like a nice mix of everything.
In the long run, the special services can be a great tool for evangelisation, since a large portion (if not all) of the Orthodox faith is well preserved within the heart of the liturgy. Do you really wish to potentially loose souls, only for ur zeal for a language? That's a very dangerous area.

ilovesaintmark

Actually, I was not trying to be profound.  I'm staying out of this discussion. I was just being funny.

ophadece

DEar father Peter,
I never alluded to anything to mean that only Coptic conveys the truth. What I meant was an echo to my previous posts of conveying the meaning of the music and that's all.
DEar hos erof,
The apostle St. Mark let go of the Jewish music and Hebrew language to establish the Coptic church for me. Why do you want me now to lose that privilege? DO we not all have translated books and PowerPoint presentations with Coptic, English and Arabic in them?

mmatt95

St Mark preached to his people in their own culture/language: coptic.
Now it is ur turn to also preach further to those around you, whose language is not coptic.
It's that simple. One day God will ask each one of us: What do you do with the Truth that you possessed in your church?
And no, you shouldnt force converts to pray in coptic, even if they have a translation.
Coptic is a language, not a priveledge. Yah, I do love coptic and our hymnal tradition, but I understand very well that others don't. Should this matter?

peterfarrington

But St Mark did not worship in Coptic. The liturgy of St Mark is Greek. The fathers of the Church all wrote and worshipped in Greek. The fact that 'O Only Begotten' written by St Severus is still sung by Copts in Greek shows that even at the time of St Severus the Church worshipped in Greek.

Therefore the Church made the transition from the Greek to the Coptic language. In the West it will make the same transition for the sake of the same Gospel into a variety of languages.

For myself personally, as a serious Christian, following along other people's worship on a TV screen is not worship from my heart. I could probably worship in French since I understand French to a degree, but attending worship in any other language, even if a translation is available is just not worship in my experience. It is like watching a DVD where the audio is a second out of sync.

You may think I should be able to follow a Powerpoint presentation but I can't with real participation - and I am a really committed Orthodox Christian. For the vast majority of non-Orthodox the experience would be even less satisfactory. This is no-ones fault. It is just human.

This doesn't mean that having a mixed service is a problem. It is not at all. But I would say as an Englishman that the more non-English the harder it is, naturally, for people to participate rather than spectate.

I love Armenian chant but if the only exposure I had to Orthodoxy was in Classical Armenian then that would be problematic even if I had a translation to try and follow.

This is not a criticism of Coptic or Arabic, but it is just a reflection of our human condition.

ophadece

Ok points taken. Thanks for giving the time to reply to my post. God bless you and pray for us a lot