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Feminism and christianity?
I hav noticed a lot of people hav been posting a lot of feminist remarks that i find very (if i may say so) disturbing for example one posted zat women shud wear whatever zey like they culd even run naked on z road nd such nd the justification was men put jel on their hair nd wear thight shirts which is ridiculus one even stated that it is not against marian behavior 2 dres provocatively lets get z records straight persöally i dunt belive feminism nd orthodoxy blend well for men nd women cant certainly be held 2 z same standard even though we r all equal certain behavior is expected of a woman if we look at timothy and corintias (excuse my spelling i dunt use english bibles) it states a womans role nd behavior zat is expected yet feminists wud deem it degrading 2 women anyway plz discuss!
Comments
Feminism does not equal women's rights and respect. It is a selfish act and conduct.
This. Feminism is merely legalized sexism.
Ifor example one posted zat women shud wear whatever zey like they culd even run naked on z road nd such nd the justification was men put jel on their hair nd wear thight shirts which is ridiculus
It's ridiculous, but what do you expect considering it's coming from a feminist?
Feminism is incompatible with Orthodox Christianity. Orthodox Christianity espouses respect for women. The ultimate example being the very Mother of God. I would hope that young Coptic girls, young ladies, and women would see Her as the ultimate example and not the nut cases that call themselves feminists.
It's true that feminism has become a sort of self-centred power struggle based on materialism and ambition, but it has served a very important social role. Can you imagine living in a world where women could not run for political office or even vote in elections? They were treated as second class citizens, something which any Christian should be outraged at. It was the feminist movement that ended most of that inequality and the world is better because of it. The selfish and materialistic, man hating feminism of Ayn Rand or Germaine Greer (i.e. the nutcases you were referring to :))however is unfortunately very shallow and based on a very bleak, very lonely view of the world where no-one can be trusted but one's self. THAT kind of feminism is incompatible with Christian teaching, but in its earlier forms, I think it was commendably noble IMHO.
This is a serious question as a follow-up to the previous comments.
[quote author=sodr2 link=topic=9730.msg119255#msg119255 date=1284321849]
This. Feminism is merely legalized sexism.
Sexism usually refers to the oppression of women by men. Feminism cannot be called sexism. Feminism promotes misandry, not sexism.
<_< So women oppressing men isn't sexist? And misandry is sexism.
Ifor example one posted zat women shud wear whatever zey like they culd even run naked on z road nd such nd the justification was men put jel on their hair nd wear thight shirts
I think I remember that particular post; however, I think she was being sarcastic and trying to make a point, although it was a little unclear.
But, I think that the "extreme" forms of feminism (excuse my lack of appropriate terms) may be incompatible with Christianity because it pulls away from the messages of the Bible. Often, younger ladies start to get distracted and they start to complicate certain messages. The classic example is the mention of obedience to one's husband, but obedience to one another (love and sacrifice) is the main message. The Bible doesn't condone male dominance in the negative sense (which is what sometimes happens). I think girls are bombarded with the idea that they have to be strong females, and to absolutely not be OBEDIENT.."ickkk neverrrrr" says the world! Meanwhile, they are also told to be sexualized, used, and abused by the same people... So the attention is taken off what should really be avoided (sexualization, promiscuity, no self respect) and ideas of obedience and submission are given negative connotations.
I just turned this into a social science lesson lol.
Oh, I would also like to point out that women saying they should be allowed to run around naked and such isn't necessarily a feminist perspective..I think the term "feminist" is used too loosely and some feminist theories are valid and merely criticisms of dominant ideologies... Any feminists in the house? haha..
-mary
In one of the first small groups we broke into there were several woman who wanted to provide some feminist insights on an issue we were discussing. This immediately raised my hackles (and I have done presentations on feminism at Bible College so I know that there are things to be very concerned about). But when the conversation developed I understood and agreed with some of what they were saying and asking.
They were essentially asking....
What does the Bible say to poor, brutalised women in sub-Saharan Africa?
They were not asking for a different Gospel, so much as asking what it said to women in that situation. (And in South Africa young girls are more likely to be raped than receive a secondary education).
I realised that I was not ever doing pure theology, but I was also asking a relative question.
What does the Bible say to a middle class, educated man in England?
It seems entirely reasonable to me that people in different situations and circumstances should ask different questions of the Bible, and the Church, without taking away the central message. The person who is convicted of sin read the Bible in one way. The person who is poor reads it one way. The person in prison for their faith reads it one way. Different aspects of the message of salvation have a more intense meaning in these different circumstances.
I think it is unreasonable for anyone to suggest that any questions a woman might have are to be labelled as 'feminism' in a bad way. Even though it is necessary for a woman to be careful that she is not addressing her questions from a basis of secular and humanist thinking, it is still entirely reasonable to be asking questions of the Bible and the Church from the position of being female, a wife, a mother etc. Just as a man may reasonably ask of the Bible and the Church what the Gospel means for them as males, and as husbands and fathers.
We can see that our Lord used a variety of approaches with different people, and that different people approached him with different needs and questions being uppermost in their minds. To ignore this is to diminish the universality of the Gospel. It is to speak past people as if they were only allowed to ask the questions which we have, and struggle with the issues we struggle with.
All -isms tend to become problematic in a Christian perspective because they become an ideology in themselves which must compete with and distort the Christian message. So there are issues with feminism in that sense. But there is nothing wrong with the questions which many women should rightly ask of the Bible and the Church. If this is a Gospel for women then that is not a bad thing, there must be a 'Gospel for women'. Just as there is a 'Gospel for men', a 'Gospel for the poor', and a 'Gospel for the rich'. These are not unrelated, indeed they have the same substance. But our Gospel message begins where people are, not where we are. So the presentation is different. The questions are different. The emphases may be different.
Father Peter
I hav noticed a lot of people hav been posting a lot of feminist remarks that i find very (if i may say so) disturbing for example one posted zat women shud wear whatever zey like they culd even run naked on z road nd such nd the justification was men put jel on their hair nd wear thight shirts which is ridiculus one even stated that it is not against marian behavior 2 dres provocatively lets get z records straight persöally i dunt belive feminism nd orthodoxy blend well for men nd women cant certainly be held 2 z same standard even though we r all equal certain behavior is expected of a woman if we look at timothy and corintias (excuse my spelling i dunt use english bibles) it states a womans role nd behavior zat is expected yet feminists wud deem it degrading 2 women anyway plz discuss!
Easy there Kalsam,
Christianity is for everyone. Unfortunately, men, from perhaps middle eastern cultures, judge a woman more on her appearance than any other man. We all judge women on their appearances, but middle eastern men tend to have some sort of issue with dress code and are highly sensitive towards this.
I went to vespers once in Paris, in the middle of summer, in the blazing heat. I had a light jumper i was wearing, so , I just tied it around my jeans.
An egyptian priest told me to take it off, that it was not appropriate to wear this in Church. This particular priest cannot speak a word of French, nor English, nor any other language other than Arabic.
Those reading this message who are not born in Egypt will understand me. Those reading this who are from Egypt and have lived there, will understand the priest.
Here's another example.
A girl walked into Church wearing REALLY high boots and a long skirt. So, only a small part of her knees were showing.
If she leaned forward a TINY bit, then actually, the skirt was so long it would have covered her entire knees.
Now, if you are from France, this is not a way to dress. If you are from Egypt, Im sure you have no problems with this sort of outfit.
As a french person, she should have worn a skirt a BIT SHORTER. Im not saying mini-jupe, or skirt, but a bit shorter would have been MORE RESPECTABLE.
You see?? French people equate the way you dress with respectfulness. Egyptians equate respectability by how much skin you reveal. For me, she looked vulgar. Really. She should have got shorter boots with that skirt, or a longer skirt and shorter boots.
As a French Christian, I am telling you: she would look stupid wearing this outside Church. The dress was too long and its something you do not do. It looks silly. She obviously wanted to wear a longer skirt for the CHurch, but even me, I think it looked so tacky, that a shorter dress would have been WAY more elegant.
Now, let's say she wore a shorter skirt to Church? In France, with a French Coptic Congregation, NO ONE would have said a thing or even looked at her. We do not equate vulgarity by small things like this.
I went to the UK and noticed that girls, on a Friday night - dress like prostitutes. That's right. All of them. (well, all the ones I saw, and that's quite a lot!). The English girls have a REAL problem dressing sensually. They end up unwittingly (or wittingly!) as dressing in a very vulgar manner.
Now, they were NOT going to Church. They were going out clubbing, on a Friday night with their friends.
Its easy for a girl nowadays to wear something provacative and exclaim that it is only fashion. Whether in Church, or out of the Church. Isn't it?? I don't know how long this excuse will last for???
But, the good thing about fashion is that it is varied. You're not obliged to wear mini skirts. If you wear a longer, more conservative skirt, you are still in fashion.
Let's just have a bit of a think here:
An Egyptian man was trying to explain to a friend of ours how conservative Egypt and Egyptians are with respect to what they can do in public. He grabbed my hand, and put my little finger around his little finger and exclaimed: "THIS IS LITERALLY A SEXUAL ACT IN EGYPT!!"
lol
so, how egyptians judge a woman is not like non egyptians.
So what is the answer?
Let everyone judge themselves. We do not know what is in a person's heart. Are you dressing to provoke a man, or are you dressing badly because you have no sense of fashion?? We don't know. All I know is that each person must judge himself/herself when coming into the Church.
I think it is abundantly clear that as a woman, you cannot go to a Church wearing a clothes like those of girls going out clubbing on a friday night?? Can you?
There's wrong with what this girl was wearing - except the dress was really baggy. loll..
Anyway - the main point I wanted to make was this:
The i think depending on your upbringing- you will judge a person differently.