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Theosis
Hi,
Don't worry, I'm not interested in another debate on this.. its confusing already; I just need to know where I can get H.E. Anba Bishoy's statement on this?
Also, if you have the Pope's statement on this issue, that would be great also.
Also - if you happen to know how we differ with the Catholics and the EO's on this issue, that would be a HUGE help also.
Thanks
Don't worry, I'm not interested in another debate on this.. its confusing already; I just need to know where I can get H.E. Anba Bishoy's statement on this?
Also, if you have the Pope's statement on this issue, that would be great also.
Also - if you happen to know how we differ with the Catholics and the EO's on this issue, that would be a HUGE help also.
Thanks
Comments
The discussion of Theosis is meant to educate myself, or gain knowledge, on the COPTIC ORTHODOX perspective, and yet identify our differences with other churches.
The Comparative Theology book does not focus on this issue, but regardless, it needs to be made crystal clear.
"God become Man, so that man might become God" - this is from St Athanasious. I think people like Matta Al Maskine just came along and took this phrase to a completely new level. They began to believe that man could somehow unite with Divinity, or become Divine.
This is not so.
St. Peter, when he says "Partakers of the Divine Nature" , means more along the lines of partaking of the attributes of the Divine Nature, rather than "becoming" divine.
The word "partakers" is completely correct; its just, as far as I'm aware, people have misinterpreted this to "become Divine".
We partake of the divine nature, by being baptised and confirmed: we are now righteous, wearing Christ.
We partake of the divine nature by being Holy in our actions, as Christ is Holy.
But we do not BECOME divine.. we can only be partakers, sharers in the Divine Nature, not Divine in OUR nature.
Christ humbled Himself and became a man.
This does not mean we ought to interpret the Bible so that we exalt ourselves and become God.
In this respect, the arguments of the CoC have been continuing.
Why is this important now?????
It is important because the effect of such heresies are now widespread. Its not just a simple doctrine, or element in our faith that has no bearing on our daily lives.
People left, right and centre, are being slain the spirit (falling over, Abouna Daniel style) believing that they are now Divinized - that the Holy Spirit has "mildly" come upon them that the power is SO overwhelming, they fall on the floor.
Therefore, I really need to understand this topic better. I made the foolish mistake thinking that heresies were not my problem so long as I just remained ignorant and obedient to my Church. Now, it appears that we need to protect ourselves with knowledge in the True Faith to know how to avoid such pitfalls.
I believe that Theosis is not some magical formula whereby we become mini-gods!! It just means that we become what God is by His Nature - by His grace, in that we become fully united with him.
We must distinguish between essence and energy; and this is the problem with such issues.
It will be a huge problem for our Church unless we understand this correctly, and Im still trying to get my head around it.
responses from HG Bishop Youssef
http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php?topic=9234.0
http://erkohet.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=74:intrototheosis&Itemid=14
It is 'Introduction to the Early Fathers on the Doctrine of Theosis'
By Professor John Charmley
(of the British Orthodox Church under the Coptic Patriarchate)
Father Peter
I really appreciate that.
By the way, we all agree that we only work with the Divine Energies, not the Divine Essence. You agree??
These Divine Uncreated Energies IS the Grace of God that we receive through the Holy Sacraments.
So, catholics or protestants who are Charismatic and tell us that the Holy Spirit makes people fall over on the floor because it has "come upon them" - cannot be true. This is a heresy. Would you agree??
God's uncreated Energies is what we encounter, not His Divine Essence.
So, someone saying that the Holy Spirit comes and "touches them" must be heretic - would you agree, or am I missing something???
But there is no 'thing' that God uses to work in us and among us. Even if we want to speak of the energies of God these are all entirely and completely God.
When God works by the Holy Spirit it is indeed the Holy Spirit who works and acts directly. Anything else would be to say that God is different from and separate from his energies, which would then become some intermediary. There is no such intermediary.
We always encounter God. In the eucharist I handle God in the bread and wine.
The essence and energies distinction always rather smacks of Nestorianism to me. It has the appearance of an attempt to show that we do not really meet God, he does not really engage with us, and is entirely remote in himself. That is not what we believe.
Father Peter
Are you familiar with Anba Bishoy's letter refuting the idea of us mixing with the Divine Essence?
Are you aware of this? I just read the letter, but there were some parts missing (he quoted things in Greek, and it wasn't appearing).
So, you are of the opinion that there is no distinction.
So, the phrase: "partakers in the Divine Nature" , means for you, that we are uniting with the Divine Essence???
Hardly. The essence/energy distinction has nothing in reality to do with whether or not we become God by essence. Of course we don't. I know no-one who thinks we do. It is an ancient Origenistic idea that was refuted about 1500 years ago. The main use of the distinction is to insist that we do not ever actually connect with God Himself. I find that a defective idea.
The divine essence is unknowable. What God is is unknowable.
But that doesn't mean that God Himself does not deal with us as He himself knows. The energies of God are not something other than God, they are the experience of the essence of God.
You can only know me through my energies. You only know me by the activity of my being. When I speak to you, when I touch you, when you hear me and feel me near. If you were not able to experience my energies then you would have no knowledge of my essence. I would be invisible and unknown. But my energies and activities are not different to me. They are ME in action and in relation to you.
If the universe is held together by something other than God Himself being present in every place and in every atom then we are saying that God is somewhere else, and that there is some other being which is present in the universe, holding it in being. If it is God then God only exists in His essence. The energies of God are not something other than God, they are the activity of God, but they are the activity of the divine essence of God. There can be no division between what God is (which is unknowable) and his divine activity (which is also unknowable). We know God is there because we see Him at work - but it is the same essence of God which is known a little by his actions and unknown in His entirety.
Some Eastern Orthodox speak of the energies of God as being other than God. This is the heresy.
When Our Lord said 'Lazarus come out' by what power was the miracle achieved? If it is by the energies of God as if they were seperate from God then it was not God who raised Laazarus. If it was the power of God which raised Lazarus then that power is of the divine essence.
When Moses face glowed because he had beheld God in some small sense what had he seen? If we say that he did not behold God then firstly we make him a liar and secondly we say that God is in one place and his glory is in another, as if he were not himself his own glory.
What do you think the energies of God are? If they are not God what are they? And if they are God then how are they not of His essence? When I pray at the altar and ask that God will send His Holy Spirit upon the gifts on the altar does He send something else other than the Holy Spirit? Or is the Holy Spirit not of the essence of divinity? He sends the Holy Spirit (God) who works a miracle upon the gifts by His own power (of God).
You do not know who I am except by the means of our relation one to another through word and sight and touch. But you know something of me through those things. Who I am in my completeness is always unknown to you. But that which you do know of me is truly knowledge of some aspect of my essence.
It is the same with our knowledge of God. Who He is in Himself and known only to the consubstantial Trinity is unknown to us. But the knowledge we do have of Him through His activities and energies directed in relation to us is real even though very partial knowledge.
The energies of God are simply God at work, they are not separate from God. To see God at work is to see God truly but partially.
Father Peter
Hi Zoxasi. Good questions. But we must be careful not to simply absorb the teaching of late Eastern Orthodoxy if we do not find it in our own authentic Orthodox Fathers.
Hi Fr. Peter.
lol.. this is a real delicate topic.. isn't it!!? Hmm.. but its important to make use of your knowledge, and i prefer to just get this over and done with.
You are referring to Gregory Palmares?? I take it we do not subscribe to his views?
Anyway, what I suggest is a bit of reflection time, and less questions (from my part), and perhaps we can resume with this discussion/learning later on.
I think it would be easier if we just spoke face to face.
I don't wish to upset anyone in this forum, and I know the way I write can be very "direct" - and that's because I don't have time to go around in circles. Its obvious there is some confusion on this subject within our Church, and I know that unless this issue is ironed out, we will only end up preaching to our own Children, and to ourselves, false doctrine.
Take care,
I am a member of lots of forums where Copts post, and I have never heard a Copt say that.
If we want to find a neutral source of patristics then I have to say that Metropolitan Kallistos in his well known work, The Orthodox Way, is probably agreeable to all. He says...
To indicate the two "poles" of God's relationship to us - unknown yet well known, hidden yet revealed - the Orthodox tradition draws a distinction between the essence, nature or inner being of God, on the one hand, and his energies, operations and acts of power on the other...... By the essence of God is meant his otherness, by the energies, his nearness....
The Orthodox Tradition draws a distinction between the essence, the nature or inner being of God, and His energies, the operations or acts of power. By the ‘essence’ of God is meant His otherness, by the ‘energies’ His nearness. The ‘essence’ signifies the radical transcendence of God. The ‘energies’ signify His immanence and omnipresence. When Orthodox speak of the divine energies, they do not mean by this an emanation from God, an ‘intermediary’ between God and man, or a ‘thing’ or ‘gift’ that God bestows. On the contrary, the energies are God Himself in His activity and self-manifestation.
When a man knows or participates in the divine energies, he truly knows or participates in God Himself. The essence signifies the whole God as He is in Himself; the energies signify the whole God as He is in action. Our God is unknowable in His essence, yet known in His energies. He is beyond and above all that we can think and express, yet closer to us than our own heart.
By virtue of this distinction between the divine essence and the divine energies, we are able to affirm the possibility of a direct or mystical union between man and God - what the Greek fathers term the theosis of man or his deification - but at the same time we exclude any pantheistic identification between the two : for man participates in the energies of God, not in the essence. There is union but not fusion or confusion.
I agree with this use of the idea of energies and essence. He does not make the energies something other than God, they are simply God in action towards us. God making Himself known. And we are united with God as He chooses to make Himself known and as far as He chooses to make Himself known, and not with His inner being as He Himself knows Himself and we can never know Him.
But all is God. As Metropolitan Kallistos says - it would be wrong to think of the energies as a "thing", bestowed on us by God, so it would be equally misleading regard the energies as "part" of God. The Godhead is simple and indivisible and has no parts. The essence signifies the whole God as He is in Himself, the energies signify the whole God as He is in action. God in His entirety is completely present in each of his divine energies.
Father Peter
I think it would be easier if we just spoke face to face.
Well invite me to tea then.
Father Peter
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=9236.msg114473#msg114473 date=1274118534]
I think it would be easier if we just spoke face to face.
Well invite me to tea then.
Father Peter
lol thanks Father. Its extremely kind of you to suggest that. I feel its an abuse of your kindness to just meet up for this, but when are you next in Stevenage?
Whenever you happen to be in the area (to see Anba Angaelos, and you have some time to spare, please let me know). I will gladly invite you for tea, but I cannot ask you to come all this way just to see my miserable self in order to educate me over this topic
Its a topic I really want to get sorted out though.
Thanks Fr.
let me know if you need someone to serve the tea ;)