Not only because it is written in the 4 Gospels, but also because of many reasons:
There are many reasons, but one reason I particularly like is this:
To make bread: you need flour:
The congregation used to give flour (from their harvest) to be used for the Bread that will be Christ's body. The significance behind this is that everyone contributed some flour. The body of Christ is made up of us all, each one of us is a contribution in Christ's Body.
Yeast used to resemble sin in the old testament. Now we make the bread with yeast - for an important reason (in the Orthodox Churches): That we celebrate Christ's body as He carried the sins of the World. We use therefore leavened bread.
Again, the same with the Wine. Everyone would bring the natural resources (grapes) to be used in making Wine. They'd all participate, and hence the Wine would be made from contribution of the congregation: meaning that we are all members of the same body and blood.
So, why not fish? Why not a slice of meat? real meat?
All these items you'd have to cook it, there should be NO leftovers (this was in the OT) that God INSISTED that they consume the entire sacrifice and not leave anything left over. How could that work with fish? How could that work with meat?
Anyway, this is what I heard from Church. I'm sure there are even more wondrous explanations, but as I said, I particularly liked these ones.
thank you all who tried to answer my question. When i posted the question,I thought I was too ignorant not to know why we use bread and wine as the body and blood of our Lord.I asked many deacons in our church,but none knew exactly why the reason behind it.
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=9108.msg113358#msg113358 date=1271388751] If you look at the explanation in Hebrews chapter 5, it clearly makes a correlation between Christ and Melchizedek. As is known, in the Old Testament the higher(even now) gives the blessing to the lower. Melchizedek blessed Abraham right? So, Melchizedek was greater than Abraham. Having said that, Melchizedek was called King of Salem(meaning peace, aka King of Peace) sound familiar? "You are a priest FOREVER, according to the order of Melchizedek." Melchizedek being the High Priest and King He brought wine and bread as a sacrifice. Christ our King of Peace and King of kings offered himself, flesh and blood,(who was the true sacrifice) in the form of bread and wine.
On a side note, I cannot remember where, but I had read a contemplation saying that since Melchizedek had no genealogy and was the Word Himself blessing Abraham, and used bread and wine in the same manner He did in New Testament. Would it make sense to say that the order of Melchizedek is an everlasting priesthood if he was human? I'm not sure, my two cents. So that is the connection I was referring to by the story of in Genesis.
Okay, I had heard this story,but I still can not figure out in what terms Melchizedek could be equal or a type of Christ.It is true that the bread and wine Melchizedek gave to Abraham is similar to the bread and wine that our Lord instituted as a blessed sacrament.Although similar in shape,appearance and form, they are different in power and essence,though.So I fail to understand why this comparison of bread and wine with Melechezidek is important or even a way of explaining things.
[quote author=Ηεζεκιελ link=topic=9108.msg113485#msg113485 date=1271618138] To add a sentence to what others said, the Lord did not say I am the fish of life,but the bread of life ( today's Gospel reading), and He did not say I am the true water or milk,but the true Vine.To understand it fully, you have to refer to the Old testament to find prophecies that explain it including Melchezedak.
This is true. So why would the Lord say I am the bread of life and and the true wine? if you could point out more Old testament prophecises that explain this,that would be appreciated.
Not only because it is written in the 4 Gospels, but also because of many reasons:
There are many reasons, but one reason I particularly like is this:
To make bread: you need flour:
The congregation used to give flour (from their harvest) to be used for the Bread that will be Christ's body. The significance behind this is that everyone contributed some flour. The body of Christ is made up of us all, each one of us is a contribution in Christ's Body.
Yeast used to resemble sin in the old testament. Now we make the bread with yeast - for an important reason (in the Orthodox Churches): That we celebrate Christ's body as He carried the sins of the World. We use therefore leavened bread.
Again, the same with the Wine. Everyone would bring the natural resources (grapes) to be used in making Wine. They'd all participate, and hence the Wine would be made from contribution of the congregation: meaning that we are all members of the same body and blood.
So, why not fish? Why not a slice of meat? real meat?
All these items you'd have to cook it, there should be NO leftovers (this was in the OT) that God INSISTED that they consume the entire sacrifice and not leave anything left over. How could that work with fish? How could that work with meat?
Anyway, this is what I heard from Church. I'm sure there are even more wondrous explanations, but as I said, I particularly liked these ones.
This explanation is similar to the one given by Hos erf,only that Hos erf compacted it in a single sentence. If you can cook bread,why not fish or meat? Fish was the popular meal in ancient israel and probably not expensive.
You see my point is I do not get it,neither do many.
i found this in the 'wisdom of sirach', also called 'sirach' or 'ecclesiasticus' in chapter 50, the writer (most likely the jewish scholar jesus ben sirach writing about 180bC, according to the orthodox study Bible) is discussing the work of the high priest and he writes: 13 All the sons of Aaron in their dignity clustered around him like poplars, With the offerings to the LORD in their hands, in the presence of the whole assembly of Israel. 14 Once he had completed the services at the altar with the arranging of the sacrifices for the Most High, 15 And had stretched forth his hand for the cup, to offer blood of the grape, And poured it out at the foot of the altar, a sweet-smelling odor to the Most High God, 16 The sons of Aaron would sound a blast, the priests, on their trumpets of beaten metal; A blast to resound mightily as a reminder before the Most High. 17 Then all the people with one accord would quickly fall prostrate to the ground In adoration before the Most High, before the Holy One of Israel.
so even before Jesus came in the flesh, the jews made the comparison between the blood in the sacrificed animal and the 'blood' (red juice) of the grape in the drink offering.
i think, like many things in the old testament, bread and wine were something the messiah would be identified with, and so any devout, Godly people who were looking for the messiah (people like simeon and anna who saw Jesus as a baby in the temple) would recognise Jesus as the messiah by the signs around Him. why bread and not fish? i think maybe God wanted something simple as a sign, something even the poorest people could identify with. people all over the world make some sort of bread with all sorts of grains, so it is a concept which all can understand. Jesus is the bread of life, not some exotic fitari food which we can't always afford, He is the essence of life, it's very foundation. in many cultures (eastern europe, asia, africa etc), people say 'a meal without bread is not a meal'. similarly, i think life without Jesus is not life.
sorry i couldn't quote any church fathers on that one, maybe someone else can help.
[quote author=mabsoota link=topic=9108.msg113741#msg113741 date=1272139068] why bread and not fish? i think maybe God wanted something simple as a sign, something even the poorest people could identify with. people all over the world make some sort of bread with all sorts of grains, so it is a concept which all can understand. Jesus is the bread of life, not some exotic fitari food which we can't always afford, He is the essence of life, it's very foundation. in many cultures (eastern europe, asia, africa etc), people say 'a meal without bread is not a meal'.
Dear mabsotta,
thank you so much for your efforts.You have summerised the 'bread' part logically and beautifully. I can say,I am beginning to undestand it now more than ever before.
I am confident we (including the deacons here and in my church) thought we knew the reasons for bread and wine as the body and blood of Christ. but it a'int so.we are all learning,so any takers for the 'wine' part? Pls excuse my persistance.
Hello Mozes, Jesus Christ knew all things because he is GOD and must of seemed like a prophet to many. The prophets knew more than all the people. He would speak of the prophets and say that this is me of whom they speak, sorry I'm not quoting from the Gospels. So look to prophets for understanding. The bread was chosen, because of Moses' discussion with Jethro in exodus Chapter 18 The Appointment of Judges. Moses tells Jethro GOD has delivered Israel us from of the hand of Eygpt and Jethro says "Now I know that the LORD is greater than all the gods: for in the very thing in which they behaved proudly, He was above them." Does that speak of Jesus Christ's crucifixion not only his body on the cross but also GOD in Heaven? Then Jethro offered a burnt offering and other sacrifices to offer to GOD. Does that speak of the old offering for the redemption of sins and thankgiving? But Aaron with all the elders of Israel bought bread and ate with Moses. Does this speak of a communion and does the bread represent the people? So the elders represent the people of Israel and Moses was going to judge the people of Israel. We eat the bread and Jesus Christ is our judge. The next day, Moses judged the people the whole day. Jethro was concerned that Moses was doing it all alone and thought it would be too much for him and asked why. Moses' reply to Jethro was, "Because the people come to me to inquire of GOD." (Thats what we do in church.) and makes known the statutes of GOD (which are his commandments, but we follow the new covenant of Jesus Christ.) Jethro says," The thing that you do is not good." Both you and these people who are with you will surely wear yourselves out. For this thing is too much for you: you are not able to perform it by yourself." Does this speak of the old covenant being inadequate? So our covenant is bound by Jesus Christ through his new commandments, and the old inadequate offering is replaced in the way that Aaron and the Elders (Israel) bought bread to Moses the judge. The bread is offered, I guess to sustain him and give him strength for the work he was about to do. The True and rightful judge Jesus Christ accepts his own by offering himself though the bread and we are sustained and given strength.
My prayer for all is the bread of life through Jesus Christ.
I think the bread part was explained well by others, I just want to add one thing: someone mentioned before that yeast is a symbol of sin which is true and also when we mix it with flour and water to make orban and bake it, the yeast dies symbolizing how Christ put sin to death.
Concerning the wine, in the old testament, it was a symbol of joy, which is why it was essential in weddings, like we see at Cana of Galilee, and also why David says, "wine that makes glad the heart of man" (Psalms 104:15)... the continuation of that verse is also very interesting, it says, "And bread which strengthens man's heart".
Also, meat, fish, and milk wouldn't be good options because then what would we have done during the fast... lol
Comments
Why did Christ choose bread?
Not only because it is written in the 4 Gospels, but also because of many reasons:
There are many reasons, but one reason I particularly like is this:
To make bread: you need flour:
The congregation used to give flour (from their harvest) to be used for the Bread that will be Christ's body. The significance behind this is that everyone contributed some flour. The body of Christ is made up of us all, each one of us is a contribution in Christ's Body.
Yeast used to resemble sin in the old testament. Now we make the bread with yeast - for an important reason (in the Orthodox Churches): That we celebrate Christ's body as He carried the sins of the World. We use therefore leavened bread.
Again, the same with the Wine. Everyone would bring the natural resources (grapes) to be used in making Wine. They'd all participate, and hence the Wine would be made from contribution of the congregation: meaning that we are all members of the same body and blood.
So, why not fish? Why not a slice of meat? real meat?
All these items you'd have to cook it, there should be NO leftovers (this was in the OT) that God INSISTED that they consume the entire sacrifice and not leave anything left over. How could that work with fish? How could that work with meat?
Anyway, this is what I heard from Church. I'm sure there are even more wondrous explanations, but as I said, I particularly liked these ones.
thank you all who tried to answer my question. When i posted the question,I thought I was too ignorant not to know why we use bread and wine as the body and blood of our Lord.I asked many deacons in our church,but none knew exactly why the reason behind it.
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=9108.msg113358#msg113358 date=1271388751]
If you look at the explanation in Hebrews chapter 5, it clearly makes a correlation between Christ and Melchizedek. As is known, in the Old Testament the higher(even now) gives the blessing to the lower. Melchizedek blessed Abraham right? So, Melchizedek was greater than Abraham. Having said that, Melchizedek was called King of Salem(meaning peace, aka King of Peace) sound familiar? "You are a priest FOREVER, according to the order of Melchizedek." Melchizedek being the High Priest and King He brought wine and bread as a sacrifice. Christ our King of Peace and King of kings offered himself, flesh and blood,(who was the true sacrifice) in the form of bread and wine.
On a side note, I cannot remember where, but I had read a contemplation saying that since Melchizedek had no genealogy and was the Word Himself blessing Abraham, and used bread and wine in the same manner He did in New Testament. Would it make sense to say that the order of Melchizedek is an everlasting priesthood if he was human? I'm not sure, my two cents. So that is the connection I was referring to by the story of in Genesis.
Okay, I had heard this story,but I still can not figure out in what terms Melchizedek could be equal or a type of Christ.It is true that the bread and wine Melchizedek gave to Abraham is similar to the bread and wine that our Lord instituted as a blessed sacrament.Although similar in shape,appearance and form, they are different in power and essence,though.So I fail to understand why this comparison of bread and wine with Melechezidek is important or even a way of explaining things.
[quote author=Ηεζεκιελ link=topic=9108.msg113485#msg113485 date=1271618138]
To add a sentence to what others said, the Lord did not say I am the fish of life,but the bread of life ( today's Gospel reading), and He did not say I am the true water or milk,but the true Vine.To understand it fully, you have to refer to the Old testament to find prophecies that explain it including Melchezedak.
This is true. So why would the Lord say I am the bread of life and and the true wine? if you could point out more Old testament prophecises that explain this,that would be appreciated.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=9108.msg113577#msg113577 date=1271758799]
Why did Christ choose bread?
Not only because it is written in the 4 Gospels, but also because of many reasons:
There are many reasons, but one reason I particularly like is this:
To make bread: you need flour:
The congregation used to give flour (from their harvest) to be used for the Bread that will be Christ's body. The significance behind this is that everyone contributed some flour. The body of Christ is made up of us all, each one of us is a contribution in Christ's Body.
Yeast used to resemble sin in the old testament. Now we make the bread with yeast - for an important reason (in the Orthodox Churches): That we celebrate Christ's body as He carried the sins of the World. We use therefore leavened bread.
Again, the same with the Wine. Everyone would bring the natural resources (grapes) to be used in making Wine. They'd all participate, and hence the Wine would be made from contribution of the congregation: meaning that we are all members of the same body and blood.
So, why not fish? Why not a slice of meat? real meat?
All these items you'd have to cook it, there should be NO leftovers (this was in the OT) that God INSISTED that they consume the entire sacrifice and not leave anything left over. How could that work with fish? How could that work with meat?
Anyway, this is what I heard from Church. I'm sure there are even more wondrous explanations, but as I said, I particularly liked these ones.
This explanation is similar to the one given by Hos erf,only that Hos erf compacted it in a single sentence. If you can cook bread,why not fish or meat? Fish was the popular meal in ancient israel and probably not expensive.
You see my point is I do not get it,neither do many.
i found this in the 'wisdom of sirach', also called 'sirach' or 'ecclesiasticus'
in chapter 50, the writer (most likely the jewish scholar jesus ben sirach writing about 180bC, according to the orthodox study Bible) is discussing the work of the high priest and he writes:
13
All the sons of Aaron in their dignity clustered around him like poplars, With the offerings to the LORD in their hands, in the presence of the whole assembly of Israel.
14
Once he had completed the services at the altar with the arranging of the sacrifices for the Most High,
15
And had stretched forth his hand for the cup, to offer blood of the grape, And poured it out at the foot of the altar, a sweet-smelling odor to the Most High God,
16
The sons of Aaron would sound a blast, the priests, on their trumpets of beaten metal; A blast to resound mightily as a reminder before the Most High.
17
Then all the people with one accord would quickly fall prostrate to the ground In adoration before the Most High, before the Holy One of Israel.
so even before Jesus came in the flesh, the jews made the comparison between the blood in the sacrificed animal and the 'blood' (red juice) of the grape in the drink offering.
i think, like many things in the old testament, bread and wine were something the messiah would be identified with, and so any devout, Godly people who were looking for the messiah (people like simeon and anna who saw Jesus as a baby in the temple) would recognise Jesus as the messiah by the signs around Him.
why bread and not fish? i think maybe God wanted something simple as a sign, something even the poorest people could identify with. people all over the world make some sort of bread with all sorts of grains, so it is a concept which all can understand.
Jesus is the bread of life, not some exotic fitari food which we can't always afford, He is the essence of life, it's very foundation. in many cultures (eastern europe, asia, africa etc), people say 'a meal without bread is not a meal'.
similarly, i think life without Jesus is not life.
sorry i couldn't quote any church fathers on that one, maybe someone else can help.
why bread and not fish? i think maybe God wanted something simple as a sign, something even the poorest people could identify with. people all over the world make some sort of bread with all sorts of grains, so it is a concept which all can understand.
Jesus is the bread of life, not some exotic fitari food which we can't always afford, He is the essence of life, it's very foundation. in many cultures (eastern europe, asia, africa etc), people say 'a meal without bread is not a meal'.
Dear mabsotta,
thank you so much for your efforts.You have summerised the 'bread' part logically and beautifully. I can say,I am beginning to undestand it now more than ever before.
I am confident we (including the deacons here and in my church) thought we knew the reasons for bread and wine as the body and blood of Christ. but it a'int so.we are all learning,so any takers for the 'wine' part? Pls excuse my persistance.
Jesus Christ knew all things because he is GOD and must of seemed like a prophet to many. The prophets knew more than all the people. He would speak of the prophets and say that this is me of whom they speak, sorry I'm not quoting from the Gospels. So look to prophets for understanding.
The bread was chosen, because of Moses' discussion with Jethro in exodus Chapter 18 The Appointment of Judges. Moses tells Jethro GOD has delivered Israel us from of the hand of Eygpt and Jethro says "Now I know that the LORD is greater than all the gods: for in the very thing in which they behaved proudly, He was above them." Does that speak of Jesus Christ's crucifixion not only his body on the cross but also GOD in Heaven? Then Jethro offered a burnt offering and other sacrifices to offer to GOD. Does that speak of the old offering for the redemption of sins and thankgiving? But Aaron with all the elders of Israel bought bread and ate with Moses. Does this speak of a communion and does the bread represent the people? So the elders represent the people of Israel and Moses was going to judge the people of Israel. We eat the bread and Jesus Christ is our judge.
The next day, Moses judged the people the whole day. Jethro was concerned that Moses was doing it all alone and thought it would be too much for him and asked why. Moses' reply to Jethro was, "Because the people come to me to inquire of GOD." (Thats what we do in church.) and makes known the statutes of GOD (which are his commandments, but we follow the new covenant of Jesus Christ.)
Jethro says," The thing that you do is not good." Both you and these people who are with you will surely wear yourselves out. For this thing is too much for you: you are not able to perform it by yourself." Does this speak of the old covenant being inadequate? So our covenant is bound by Jesus Christ through his new commandments, and the old inadequate offering is replaced in the way that Aaron and the Elders (Israel) bought bread to Moses the judge. The bread is offered, I guess to sustain him and give him strength for the work he was about to do. The True and rightful judge Jesus Christ accepts his own by offering himself though the bread and we are sustained and given strength.
My prayer for all is the bread of life through Jesus Christ.
Concerning the wine, in the old testament, it was a symbol of joy, which is why it was essential in weddings, like we see at Cana of Galilee, and also why David says, "wine that makes glad the heart of man" (Psalms 104:15)... the continuation of that verse is also very interesting, it says, "And bread which strengthens man's heart".
Also, meat, fish, and milk wouldn't be good options because then what would we have done during the fast... lol