Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Categories
- All Categories 13.8K
- General Category 10.9K
- General Announcements 184
- Faith Issues 3.4K
- Coptic Orthodox Church 2.5K
- Personal Issues 1.4K
- Prayer Requests 423
- Random Issues 1.8K
- Introductions 294
- Non-Orthodox Inquiries 232
- Youth Corner 606
- Hymns 2.5K
- Hymns Discussion 2.5K
- Technicial Difficulties 368
- Technical Topics 368
Jeremiah Lamentations
Jeremiah Lamentations by Fr Moussa Roushdy
http://www.4shared.com/file/97972597/fd590e82/___.html
btw I do not know him: friends told me they think his voice has a spiritual feel
GBU
http://www.4shared.com/file/97972597/fd590e82/___.html
btw I do not know him: friends told me they think his voice has a spiritual feel
GBU
Comments
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
jydeacon, do you know of a Lamentations done Abouna Mettias?
Besides, I'd wager there's already quite a bit of Arab (and therefore originally Islamic) music within many Arabic hymns we already sing during communion - like 'Ya Meem Reh Yeh Meem', whose tune sounds equally Islamic/Arabic to me. That's what happens when cultures mix, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
jydeacon, do you know of a Lamentations done Abouna Mettias?
Yeah, how Abouna Mettias does it, in my opinion is the most beautiful way I've heard it done. Specifically the one he did with HICS. I agree it sounds of somewhat arabic origins. However, it sounds like a more mournful rendition of Evol Khen in my opinion. I here some origins from that tune, but maybe thats just me. I have heard many tunes, by far Abouna Mettias Nasr's recording sounds the most "Coptic". I have nothing against the way this priest has chanted it. However, I feel it has more arabic influences. Ya meem is for sure heavily influenced by arabic music. I don't mind it so much, but I guess because I have already associated the way this priest does it, with the Quran it has more of a negative connotation as mina said. Here is a recording of another tune I have heard before as well:
http://www.coptichymns.net/modules.php?name=Coptic_Media&op=modload&file=index&p=Coptic Hymns/Holy Pascha and Bright Saturday/Good Friday/Dr Sameh Soliman
Another one:
http://www.coptichymns.net/modules.php?name=Coptic_Media&op=modload&file=index&p=Coptic Hymns/Holy Pascha and Bright Saturday/Good Friday/Fr Louka El Dawery
Its the first play link to this one.
These tunes I believe is beautiful as well(similar as well), Something I worry about..is that even though the original tune of this prophecy is still Evol Khen, that due to the widely accepted way that Abouna Mettias Nasr says it, these other ways may die out. I feel there should be more unity however, I believe that all these tunes(except maybe the one previously posted) have some origin through Evol Khen. What do you guys think of that?
It appears to me like you have never lived in Egypt. There is a difference between being influenced by culture, and consciously taking tunes from some culture to convey a meaning to them (for the NEWLY composed hymns). For the sake of argument, yes Egyptians took pagan tunes and fitted them to our Christian tunes, the whole purpose being so that people start associating new words with the tune they know, and therefore as a path into Christianity, and also simply because as you rightly pointed out there is no such a thing as "Christian" music anyway (although for some reason it is defined as a genre in its own right). Now that tune above is different. What is the purpose of fitting the tune on a purely islamic one? It doesn't even sound good enough - I respect your opinion, and I have to say that I for long believe that those muslim recitations borrowed their music from us and were modified in such a way that they got really boring (but probably powerful to them... not so sure). Please note if you had lived in Egypt you would have known that even when they sing those recitations no body understands what is being said, even though it is in Arabic!!! I think they are just too arrogant to take the idea of kholagies from us.
Secondly, both you and jydeacon: please shed some light on how "ya meem reh yeh meem" was influenced by Arabic music? My understanding is that the tunes developed late in Egypt after the Arab conquest, but that doesn't mean that they are influenced by such. In fact, what I came to learn is that that is the tune for Kiahkly taodokeya and then was applied to that melody. Please make a distinction between tunes that are composed after the Arabic conquest, and tunes that are borrowed from the Arabic culture. To me neither that, nor "ya kol el sefoof", nor "el 3adra meem reh yeh meem" have any bearing with the Arabic music. I will be interested to hear your opinion.
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
Originally the Quoran was not sung. Many Muslim scholars consider Quoranic tunes as a Coptic influence. That is why now in Egypt some fanatics try to avoid any melody in the call to prayer. It is said that during the Muslim persecution of the Egyptians, as some church moallems converted to Islam they endowed Islam with its current musical heritage. What we currently call Arabic melodies are generally a genre that evolved out the fusion of Coptic, Hebrew, Persian and Greek. But since original Coptic tunes are generally older, they tend to be more austere and venerable. Thus more befitting to occasions such as the Paschal week.
Completely agree with that.
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
Secondly, both you and jydeacon: please shed some light on how "ya meem reh yeh meem" was influenced by Arabic music? My understanding is that the tunes developed late in Egypt after the Arab conquest, but that doesn't mean that they are influenced by such. In fact, what I came to learn is that that is the tune for Kiahkly taodokeya and then was applied to that melody. Please make a distinction between tunes that are composed after the Arabic conquest, and tunes that are borrowed from the Arabic culture. To me neither that, nor "ya kol el sefoof", nor "el 3adra meem reh yeh meem" have any bearing with the Arabic music. I will be interested to hear your opinion.
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
I do not have any information that says Ya meem, was directly influenced by Arabic music but in my opinion it does. Secondly, the Theotokia tune is not officially in that tune. M. Fahim is the only person who teaches to use that tune and no other cantors teach it. In fact M. Ibrahim teaches something totally different which relates to more of a tune based off of the mournful Epouro for the kiahk theotokia. I personally don't agree with either, so I think its best to just say the theotokia annually and the explanations in ya meems tune. One way I differentiate in general is if a tune has melisma then it is more likely to be "coptic' in origin. Ya kol el sefoof has melisma in it, its not totally recitation.
I still disagree. I am not a musicologist, probably some one with more knowledge of music, and the history of Arabic music in Egypt can explain this to us. But please note that "ya kol el sefoof", and "el 3adra meem reh yeh meem" developed recently (in the beginning of the twentieth century) as carols, or Christian songs, or melodies, or however you can define them. They weren't part of the Liturgy as such - as are other melodies "el soom el soom", and the "abana ellazy felsamawat". These were incorporated into the Liturgy due to the forgetfulness of people of their own language, and consequently hymns. I believe these arose in the era that Christians wanted to get rid of all the Coptic hymns altogether, and start singing songs they can understand, and that is when Dr. Ragheb Moftah put his foot down, and had a strong stance concerning them.
As for "ya meem reh yeh meem" I believe it is one of those unrecorded hymns by cantor Mikhail that used to spread somewhere in Egypt (probably Alexandria), that has reputation with the credibility of hymns they pass down. For me, pretty much like [coptic]tishory [/coptic] of Holy Friday of cantor Towfik. Having said that, I am aware of the other tunes used, and the latest by cantor Ibrahim, which I don't agree with one speck (sorry for the expression - maybe wrong). Please note also, such was fitted on a tune (that he argues is similar to) of [coptic]`pouro [/coptic] of Holy week, but that is not mournful; it is joyful in announcing the salvation occurring after every remembrance of Passion (literally every Pascha hour).
Having said all of that, it wasn't the practice in Egyptian churches (as far as I am aware) to follow but the annual tune for the Adam taodokeya at least (my church did the same with the watos contrary to what the HICS recorded).
So, another point to bring to your attention is that Coptic hymns don't necessarily have melismata, and Arabic not - [coptic]aikw] `ncwk> ari'alin> amyn allelouia [/coptic] (conclusion of services) ... etc. I hope I made my points clear...
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
That doesn't bother me, half the tunes we use in the church were used to praise pagan Egyptian gods - I find Quranic tunes musically beautiful in and of themselves, like all Middle Eastern music, regardless of how they're used. No music exists in a vacuum - you will very rarely find a tune which has ALWAYS been Christian. Ultimately, music is just music, and all music is a beautiful expression of human culture. How it is used is another matter entirely.
Besides, I'd wager there's already quite a bit of Arab (and therefore originally Islamic) music within many Arabic hymns we already sing during communion - like 'Ya Meem Reh Yeh Meem', whose tune sounds equally Islamic/Arabic to me. That's what happens when cultures mix, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
I agree! I'm not at all knowledgeble in this area but, just as a general principle, I don't think religion should be a parameter for beauty like that, it doesn't matter who made the music, muslims, atheists, christians, etc. when something is beautiful, it's beautiful and one should not hate it merely because of its origin, in my opinion.
I enjoyed this recording!
I'm not sure how recent either hymns were developed. I'm not so sure that these things were simply added because they wanted to take away the coptic or were not mindful about it. That may be the case but I think the growing population is a huge factor too. Last time I was in Egypt, the average communion time even with 3 or 4 priests giving out communion was around 45 min-an hour. There is no way they could simply do psalm 150 and the communion hymn after alone without there being silence. Madeeha's must have had to be added/created to make up for this at some point. As far as a hymn like Ya kol el sefoof, it may not have come as a replacement to a hymn(although it does replace kata nikhoros el higab these days) but simply as an addition. And since you mentioned it is a recent addition which occurred in the 20th century, I'm sure that at that point no one can compose a hymn in coptic.
I'm also aware that a hymn doesn't have to contain melisma to be considered coptic. I was merely pointing out something I consider, perhaps I should note that I consider many other things first.
I Believe and Godislove260,
I disagree with both of you. It may simply be my personal taste, but I do not find how this rendition was done very beautiful. Secondly, we should not be mixing what we do with what Islam does. Even if the tune somehow originated from us, it is now used for the Quran. Why do we need to use this when we have our own tunes to use? Godislove, I also never said I hated it, nor did anyone on here say that. I just feel it has more of a negative connotation and I'm not fond of it because of how it is used. Thats all.
Please try to understand where I am coming from. You are aware that I lived in Egypt for 28 years before coming to the UK (and I always say this because it is only observation and deduction exercises as I am getting to learn new stuff now). In the olden carol books in Egypt, you would actually find those songs "ya kol el sefoof", "el 3adra meem reh yeh meem", "el soom el soom", "abana ellazy", besides things like "qama 7aqqan" (that is nowadays being sung during Communion), "kaneesaty el qebteya" ... etc. What my point is is that it is strictly speaking improper (and it is IMPROPER by testimony of many priests and bishops in Egypt) to sing those kind of songs during Communion. Can't actually remember the rationale behind that exactly, but what I know is that it distracts from the importance of Communion, and of course the events of the day. In fact, I don't think the book containing the melodies of the church "madaye7" is as old as our kholagies, or psalmodies. If you want to fill up the time, I am not someone who would be convinced for a second that you run out of Coptic hymns during Communion. You have a plethora of hymns that can be said at any time: [coptic]`pouro> abinao sobi> tenouwst `m`Viwt[/coptic], and so on. That is after you run out of [coptic]abekran[/coptic], or the day's doxology. In joyous days, look at how many verses of [coptic]kata ni,oroc> gene;lion> ouran `nsousou[/coptic], and besides these there is still room for the feast's special hymns of course - how can we say [coptic],C anecty [/coptic] before the Gospel, and not during Communion for example, and then start singing in Arabic. I tell you why: because people don't care MUCH anymore. They do care, but not so much, and so it is easy for them to sing them in Arabic or whatever language, and then also English, Italian, French, German, or whatever... after all it is the COPTIC ORTHODOX church, but does any body care much?
Dear Godislove, and I Believe, I hope you got jydeacon's point. You have to consider this point very clearly: when they were NEWLY composed, the Coptic hymns borrowed the tunes from pagan practices to change the culture, and make it more palatable for the latter to join Christianity. This is not the case now; we cannot just for the sake of argument take dance-floor music, rock 'n' roll, islamic music and apply it to our own these days. If inadvertently they are being influenced by such, that is another case. But we cannot apply things consciously this way. Yes different churches have different practices: some use drums, some use organs, but we don't. It is pointless to start a revolution now, and lose our heritage for the sake of these (by heritage I mean the aroma of the hymns, not on the words or the tunes).
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
I completely understand where you are coming from. I however don't see how these madaya7 take away from the importance or something like that from communion. As far as running out of hymns, if you take lets say 10-15 min for psalm 150, and the rest for the communion hymn you will for sure run out of time. Take onishty(even if you say the entire hymn is only 20 min or so), that still leaves time left if the average is about an hour. Ok you can add epouro, thats 5 min. However, Tenousht, Apinav shopi, and those hymns do not fit in communion. Khristos anesti is the same case. Why would it make sense to say it in a procession and also during communion?
Regardless of right or wrong, is singing in coptic at this point in time for the ENTIRE liturgy really practically anymore? Don't get me wrong, I love coptic and I would love it to be the only language, but we are in the diaspora now. Even in Egypt, does it really make sense to push it that far anymore? Sadly the fact of the matter is that people don't speak it anymore. We will inevitably have to have some sort of balance with coptic and other languages. Of course we must preserve and say what we can but i feel certain things will have to be said in English or Arabic or w/e language. Do you see what I'm saying?
Thanks for your response. I cannot comment on the bishops' views as I said I don't know exactly the rationale behind that principle, but please note that this is strictly speaking what the church teaches. If you finish [coptic]ounis] [/coptic]you will still find many Lent doxologies in the Psalmody that are as good of use as[coptic] `fem`psa gar [/coptic]of Kiahk that is written in the Psalmody. You still have many other Coptic hymns, and I am sure you know that [coptic]Gene;lion [/coptic]is to be sung in the Communion as well as before the Gospel. I guess that may apply to other hymns in that position. It to me makes perfect sense to sing[coptic] `<C anecty [/coptic]during Communion; the whole point being that you are singing to the resurrected Christ (pardon the indirect statement), when we are eating and drinking His Body and Blood, won't it?
Secondly, I think we have to agree to disagree on your other point: for the sake of practicality I guess you are right in making that point, and I myself am faced with that week in week out, but you know what? It is just because I cannot be bothered. We need someone like Anba Athanasius who came and faced the whole world when a letter has been added to a word to change its meaning. We need someone like Dr. Moftah and standing up against the majority in his age to preserve this treasure. And I am not only talking about treasure; I am talking about praying. Just on a very small note: how many people in Egypt when you went to visit can you say know [coptic]`pouro [/coptic]- I am talking about the congregation not the class 1 deacons. How many know [coptic]ounis][/coptic]? how many know [coptic]`fem`psa gar[/coptic]? How many actually know the liturgy replies in Coptic? Yes, the question that follows: do they really have to know?
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
Edited: Coptic misspellings
I can definitely see where you are coming from with the communion hymns and saying khristos anesti and such. I also completely understand how we need to take a stand. But how can we? The majority of people are completely ignorant. What is worse is that this majority is in Egypt. In the diaspora I feel there is more of a renewal of pushing towards having to say these hymns but in Egypt You will never see for the most part lay people who are even aware of these hymns. But are they really to blame, or is the system they are brought up in to blame? If nobody took the time to teach then its not their fault. I don't know what to do about Egypt but at least here there is a chance to do this since we are starting with fresh generations and people dedicated here.
To answer your question, do they have to know? Essentially, no. Coptic is a dead language. Will God in the end be upset we prayed in Arabic or English or Coptic? No, God wants the heart. Is it our heritage to preserve the language of St. Athanasius? Of course! I don't think the majority of copts would like to see this language totally die out but are too ignorant/lazy to learn it. My two cents.
God bless you all and pray for us a lot
yes jydeacon I totally respect your opinion and I think overall it is a very logical argument. What I am really uneasy about is that I sense a slight negativity in your tone about hymns and Coptic language in general but I guess I agree about the system. Just a side note language is defined as dead when no one is able to speak it, understand it, or read and write it and that's definitely not the case with Coptic. Even as an everyday language it is used for communication in very few places in Egypt.
God bless you all and pray for us a lot
Ophadece,
No not at all, if I came off like that I didn't mean to so I apologize. I love the coptic language but I was only speaking in a practical sense. I actually did not know that for it to be classified as dead it cannot be used at all.
God bless and Pray for me and my weakness
Oujai khen ebshois