St John Chrysostoms Boldness

Ioannes

As most people here, I as well am passionate about our church. I also believe most, if not all, here would do anything to protect her. Many know that I have been very direct and some have been offended by how I speak. Now I am not comparing myself to this great saint, I am merely bringing him forward as a witness to my stance. These words you are going to read are not mine but his.

[Moderator: Please do not post against other Christian groups during Lent. I have asked you several times. Now is a time to be concentrating on our own weaknesses.]

sodr2

I read somewhere he was responsible for the destruction of one of the great wonders of the world... pretty bold.

Ioannes

I wish you could have read what this great saint had said, but Fr. Peter decided that it was no appropriate for this lenten season. I am not sure when the writings of the early church fathers became a subject not to discuss but I feel that merely pointing out the dangers of mixing with other religions no matter how much they may seem similar is a service to our church, and bringing fourth a witness, I thought, would solidify my argument, as well as the countless passages I had used before from scripture.

I am not sure when an appropriate time to post this would be, apparently never! lol All my topics seem to be either removed or locked. So I am confused as to when truth is allowed to be spoken here, maybe Fr. Peter can elaborate on this.

peterfarrington

Ioannes, you seem to be making a difficulty where there is none.

I have asked you not to post messages condemning members of other Christian groups based on the same passage from the same Father that you keep posting. At this very moment His Eminence Metropolitan Bishoy has been present at the World Council of Churches meeting and offered a blessing upon the installation of the new WCC General Secretary Rev. Olav Fykse Tveit. And at this very moment His All Holiness The Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew has issued a warning against those who reject dialogue with non-Orthodox. He says..

Whoever believes that Orthodoxy has the truth does not fear dialogue, because truth has never been endangered by dialogue.

This is the view of our Coptic Orthodox Church.

I have no hesitation in rejecting many of the elements of Protestantism which seem to be intruding on our Orthodox Church, but the season of Lent is not a time to attack and judge others who are outside of our communion. There are enough issues for us to deal with humbly and with repentance within our own communities and within our own lives.

I will always be hesitant about allowing open criticism of His Holiness Pope Shenouda and Metropolitan Bishoy on any public forum for which I have any responsibility. Your idea of truth is not the same as that of our holy hierarchs. This does not mean that we cannot return to the subject of which you are so concerned. But during this season I will not allow it. There is time enough later on.

Let us concentrate on our own faults and not seek to highlight those of others.

You have a very broad area indeed in which you could make positive contributions to the life and spirituality of others, I am not sure why you think you are unable to post, when in fact it is only on this particular topic - the criticism of those outside our Orthodox communion, and the criticism of our priests, bishops and Patriarch - that I have asked you exercise restraint during this season.

Father Peter

Ioannes

Fr. Peter, in no way did I condemn any Bishop let alone Pope Shenouda, especially in this post. I have the utmost respect for you but I feel this was a very unfair statement to make. I dont recall discussing ecumenism or the WCC, if so I apologize. I dont understand why this is a difficult subject for you. I have brought forth scripture and saints to validate my argument. You have interpreted what I have said as attacking our Bishops and our Pope, which is not true. I never said I disagree with Dialogue Fr.Peter, I said I disagree with the set agenda of the WCC, which I have posted the link to their website that clearly states their goal to unify all churches as one "church". I refrain from discussing this with you because I feel that you have misunderstood my position.

I think if this were to be discussed in person or over the phone you would better understand my position, as online words can be misinterpreted very easily as I have done several times. I want you to understand that I am not criticizing people but their beliefs and my main point is not even that but to show the danger of intermingling with perverted theology. So please do not mistake my position, I never condemned anyone so please dont say that.

Ioannes

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2009/10/scandal-of-orthodox-catholic-dialogue.html

Fr. Peter, why is there such an urge for unity? I know you and others keep using the word dialogue, but why then would that require membership to an organization? As I had highlighted earlier the quotes directly from the WCC website about unity of ALL "Christian" churches. I dont feel as if I am highlighting others faults, unless of course your are admitting the fault of this "dialogue" between Orthodox and heretics. Honestly, I feel deeply insulted by your accusations that I have insulted HH Pope Shenouda or any other bishop.

Why not during lent is my question? Many church fathers, in order to protect their flock, openly criticized Manichaens, Montanists, and other gnostic and pagan religions....during lent. Anyways, I am astonished as such accusatory words as it was you who was trying to get me to condemn them, not I.

peterfarrington

Dear Ioannes,

I am not going to dialogue with you on this topic during Lent. You know what I have asked you to do, but you seem intent on persisting in pushing this topic.

Father Peter

Ioannes

You insulted me Fr. Peter, you accused me of something that I am not guilty of. Are you saying after lent I am allowed to post sayings of St. John Chrysostom, St. Cyprian of Carthage, St. Andrew of Caesarea etc? YOU seem intent on avoiding any sort of truth that may even hint at questioning our Bishops or even the Pope as if you adhere to infallability. I will persist Fr. Peter, especially since you selectively moderate topics as you see fit, when clearly other topics are much worse to be discussing durning lent. I never asked for dialogue with you on this topic, you intervened on a topic that seemed to upset you for whatever reason and falsely accused me of something I did not do. Your accusations are hollow, and I find it odd that you feel because your a priest you can insult me, then say you dont want to discuss this during lent.

the_least

I don't know about you, but when a PRIEST (a man ordained by God) asks me to do something, I DO IT.

geomike

LOL
seriouslly, this kind of stuff is just sad to see on such a wonderful website.

Ioannes

Look, I don't believe in infallability,
but Fr. Peter continually has said that I should not post topics on anything to do with Protestantism. I have presented my case, I have brought forth witnesses who testify on my behalf and he tells me otherwise, then accuses me of attacking the Pope and other Bishops. Nobody is infallable and I have every right to question him when he says thing that are contrary to scripture. But because he is a priest I have no forum in which to speak against his error without being regarded as some kind of renegade. While we have no doctrine or dogma of infallability, it surely seems to be practiced widely throughout the church.

I had asked Fr. Peter for a phone conversation to which I was greeted by another moderator saying that I sent pmd harassing Fr. Peter. If anyone regards me as a bad person, than do so, but I find it sad that this argument to which I Jace supplied a multitude of evidence, is not taken seriously. All because Fr. Peter is a priest. Nevermind he was not able to supply evidence on his behalf he is right because he is a priest.

THAT is what I find sad.

Unknown

I think Fr. Peter is not running away from an answer that you are seeking but He is asking you to hold this off until Lent.

For Lent is a fasting of Repentance, so we should focus on ourselves, that when we build ourselves with the foundation of Christ, we may build others with the same foundation.

There is a time under Heaven for everything. For example, Christ as a baby escaped to Egypt when heord killed all the babies. Was His running away a move of being coward or scared. No, He was wise and came back when heord died. Same thing with St. Athansious when He ran away.

Please let us act like Christ and come back when the time is right to this topic ( which is after Lent as appointed by a Priest)

"Be wise as a serpent and humble as a dove"

(I have read this topic after reading the other topic of 7 pages. This explains alot and I still give the same advice of Praying and let your request be known to God)

Pray for me and forgive me

peterfarrington

Ioannes, I am not sure why you feel such an urgent need to discuss the failings of others during Lent.

There is a time to discuss in what way Protestantism is defective in regards to our Orthodox faith, but this is not the time. This is not the time for generally curious posts about sex either, or about many other types of Church trivia. It is a time for us to concentrate on ourselves and our own weaknesses, and to share materials - such as the sayings from the Desert Fathers on the Not Speaking thread, or the helpful list of previous posts on making the most of Lent which Selah provided.

I do not believe priests are infallible, but priests do have a responsibility to direct the attention of faithful Orthodox towards those things which are profitable at various times. This is what I am doing. I am sorry you disagree and think that this subject must be discussed now. But I am a priest and therefore I have responsibility and must act according to what I believe to be appropriate. I am not exercising authority as if I was in charge, I am exercising responsibility as someone who is liable for the salvation of those I come into relationship with.

After Lent we can discuss your views on Protestantism and the other non-Oriental Orthodox communities. But we will not be doing so until after the Feast of the Resurrection. As someone who is clearly zealous and well read I am a little surprised that you yourself are not providing uplifting materials from the Fathers to encourage everyone's spiritual growth during Lent but only want to keep returning to this same topic over and over again. 

Father Peter

Ioannes

Fr. Peter,
              Thank you for atleast allowing me to return to this subject after the feast. Clearly you do not share the same urgency as I do, which there is nothing wrong in that and I am not accusing you of anything in that statement. I have posted things in other threads that I thought was very relevant to Lent. I keep returning to this topic because I see many churches mixing protestantism and Orthodoxy and many becoming "lapsi". So for me it is a very serious topic that should not be ignored at any time. I feel what better time to point out to people that these two beliefs oppose one another, althought I dont think you agree with that. I do not know why you think I am doing this just to point out "fallings of others", I am pointing out false beliefs so that others will keep away from them, to further their spiritual life. Believe me I understand your role as a priest. I know that you have to be much more careful, and much more selective with your words and what you say. I know that your judgment is more harsh than those not in the priesthood.

As long as you allow this conversation to continue after the feast, then I can refrain. As long as I am not accused of disrespecting the pope, I will refrain. But I did find that an unacceptable statement.