Dear Fr. Peter,
I once heard someone say that because God the Father had a beloved Son, this is important. If He did not have someone who was beloved to Him, would that make Him Selfish?
The person said this as a statement in comparison to Islam, that - well, in Islam, their God is not Triune, and was comparing the differences.
Would you agree with that statement? That if God did not have a Son, He would be selfish.
Thanks
Comments
Dear Fr. Peter,
I once heard someone say that because God the Father had a beloved Son, this is important. If He did not have someone who was beloved to Him, would that make Him Selfish?
The person said this as a statement in comparison to Islam, that - well, in Islam, their God is not Triune, and was comparing the differences.
Would you agree with that statement? That if God did not have a Son, He would be selfish.
Thanks
i think is is confusing and contradicting simply because whoever is stating this simply doesn't understand the God the Trinity (or atleast a little of the mystery because no one on earth will ever fully comprehend it).
The love of God is part of His great mercy...I was actually just hearing the gospel of Saint John and the verse "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son..." (John 3:16 NKJ). Gos never lost his love to the man He created but it was still there that He gave his only-begotten Son whom He also loved being His ONLY SON.
Fr. Peter, the fact that God gave His Only Son to save us means the following:
* That He is NOT selfish. He gave something that is His, and that was done in order to give us life.
* If God did NOT have a Son, therefore, how could He have given us Salvation?
* It would mean that a God that existed without a beloeved Son would be a selfish God, unable to give completely.
--> I need to get the exact quotes from this person that said that, but, I just thought it would be easier to ask.
WOuld you agree with that statement?
Thanks
The Holy Son, and the Holy Spirit are Existent for all time with the Father. There was never a time when Either did not exist. The Good Gospel of our teacher St. John, reveals: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". It is the principle verse to remember when dealing with any discussion relating to the Son. In the Book of Genesis, it reveals in the 1st chapter, and the first verses that the "Spirit of God was upon the waters". This a reference point before creation.
The Incarnation of Our Lord (the manifestation and revelation to mankind in the Flesh) is a fulfillment act. It was to confirm His Love and to carry out the Act of Salvation.
The word "selfish", cannot be used in the same sentence with God; even to ponder a philosophical discussion.
You are striking at two different topics, and trying to put a common thread between them.
The Holy Son, and the Holy Spirit are Existent for all time with the Father. There was never a time when Either did not exist. The Good Gospel of our teacher St. John, reveals: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". It is the principle verse to remember when dealing with any discussion relating to the Son. In the Book of Genesis, it reveals in the 1st chapter, and the first verses that the "Spirit of God was upon the waters". This a reference point before creation.
The Incarnation of Our Lord (the manifestation and revelation to mankind in the Flesh) is a fulfillment act. It was to confirm His Love and to carry out the Act of Salvation.
The word "selfish", cannot be used in the same sentence with God; even to ponder a philosophical discussion.
What Im trying to say is:
The FACT that GOd has a Word makes Him UNSELFISH. If He did not exist in a Trinity, if He did not have a Son that was Beloved to Him, then that would make His Nature selfish.
This question was to Fr. Peter.
Please let him answer.
I don't mind what the answer is, but I want him to answer. He is the OFFICIAL voice of the church.
It is a bit hard to understand exactly what you mean. God is love. So anything about him is love and there can be no selfishness in Him. I know you are not saying that.
To describe some other situation than we have been taught is problematic because then we are not describing God at all.
But to grasp at what I think you are asking. The holy and consubstantial Trinity does reveal to us a God who is in relation within Himself and not a monad who has no need of any other Person. We can say that God is love because in His essence He is Father, Son and Holy Spirit and not eternally Alone.
I am not sure that if God were Alone it would mean He was selfish. It would mean that this is how He is as far as we understand. But this is not how God is, and so it is hard to speak hypothetically. God is a Trinity of Persons in one Essence. God is Love. These do seem to me to be connected, even apart from the fact of God's loving creation of the world, and his enriching mankind by granting us the possibility of relationship with God.
Father Peter
I just asked the person who told me that, and they completely forgot what they said! lol
THen they remembered!
But this is what they said:
Tell me what you think: These are the logical steps that led to the conclusion that God must have a Son to have been selfless (i.e. UNSELFISH).
POINT 1:
God created the World, the Universe and everything therein.
He created Adam & Eve.
POINT 2:
Why did He create them?
Because He loved.
POINT 3:
If God is perfect, then it means he must have ALWAYS loved. It means that BEFORE the creation he loved also.
WHo did He love?
If God just loved at the time of the creation, then it means before anything was created, He did not love. That cannot be true.
POINT 4:
Therefore, he must have always loved in order to have never been selfish.
POINT 5:
The Trinity is the unity of love. The 3 persons, because they co-existed, since the beginning of the ages, and were always in perpetual unity, then this is the ONLY way God could be a perfect God: through existing in a Trinity.
He loved the Son. The Son was the perpetually beloved Son of the Father.
So, i think this explains it better.
What do you think??
That does not mean that I think the argument does not show that God is in an eternal communion of Love within the Holy Trinity - your friend does not mention the Holy Spirit who is equally one of the consubstantial and co-eternal Trinity.
But it would be possible to imagine a hypothetical state in which God was not Trinity, and had created the universe and we were all agreeing that the fact of the creation showed that God was selfless love.
There is no beginning of the universe for God. God is not bound by time, which is an aspect of his creation. And so in some unimagineable sense the Universe is always present to God, and not past, present and future. Therefore in some equally unimagineable sense the Universe has always existed from the perspective of God, even though from the perspective of dwelling within time we see a beginning and an end.
So I am not convinced that the argument proves something about God which we do not already know from his eternal kindness towards us. It is not clear that being perfect means always having someone to love in a direct sense. A person on a desert island might be loving and yet not have anyone to love. I am also always a little wary of logical arguments about God. Most of them tend to break down in mental confusion. I do not see that even following the argument means that a Trinity is necessary, the argument would allow for a Duality to exist in love. God is not under any necessity at all, that is probably the point I would make. He doesn't 'have to' do anything. All we know about God is what he has shown us, and we can see that the mutual love of the Trinity is entirely consistent with the knowledge of God as love, but I am not sure we should try to argue that one is dependent on the other.
God IS love, and God IS Trinity. But if we try to construct a logical argument there is so much we do not know and cannot know about the being beyond being of God that we cannot conclude very much at all.
i. Why must a perfect being love?
ii. What does 'before' mean to God?
iii. Why is a Trinity necessary for love to exist in God?
God has also been angered by men. Does this mean he is perfectly angry? This must mean he was angry before the creation also. Who was he angry with before Adam sinned? etc etc
Father Peter