I was just thinking about all the posts concerning sex before marriage, and whether someone should wait or not until they are married to have sex, and I couldn't help but wonder about God's Holy Spirit in our lives, and where exactly IS IT for us to be even asking such questions!!???
ALthough there are many reasons (both psychological and medical) that would support not having sex until you get married, ultimately, it rests on the desire of the person to live in holiness.
This topic really upsets me when I see Christian youth, especially Coptic, unable to discern what is Holy and what is cultural and what is sinful.
The ROLE of the Holy SPirit in your lives is to be this guide. How can you neglect its voice??? What is going on????
For someone to be chaste, it emanates from the desire to love God, and want God's blessing in your life. That's it. What is stopping anyone from sleeping with anyone else? before marriage Do they not realise that this is sin?
I can find it realistic that someone who doesn't know God behaves in this way. Unless a Coptic Christian is truly angry from God, and wants to sin, there is something that is not right:
Why doesn't the Holy Spirit, that they have been graced with, at the time of their baptism, tell them whether this is right or wrong? WHy are they asking as if they are unsure whether it is right or wrong anyway!?
There is something here not right. I just don't understand it.
I would understand it if a COptic Christian said :"Yes, I WANT to have sex before marriage, EVEN though I know this is sinful, and that is because I want to sin, and I want to be far from God, because frankly, I'm so upset with God, I want to do this".
That would be at the very least a bit understanding, but even with these bad intentions, if the Holy Spirit existed in that person, why on, or HOW on earth could they sin??
Is the Holy Spirit in me different than the Holy Spirit in someone else?? Were we not born from the same Orthodox CHurch? Do we not participate in the same sacraments?
The same with everything... how is it one priest can not sleep at night knowing that he has offended someone, and yet another can justify the most absurd acts of injustice and then give Holy Communion afterwards?? Is it NOT the same Holy Spirit that convicts the heart?? Why one person is convicted and not another??
Even if you had bad intentions, surely the Holy SPirit should have stopped you. Even the Bible says that those of God cannot sin. I mean, I know that we sin, but even if you WANT to sin, you'd find it hard to do anyway.
How comes other Copts do not?
I know very well , from my own experiences in life, that even when I am mad at God, and I WANT TO SIN, and I WANT TO REBEL, I cannot. Its hard. I find myself blocked.
I find myself stuck.. its as if , sin has lost all attractiveness - even though I want to.
How comes this same Holy Spirit doesn't work in others?? It doesnt make sense!!
Comments
It is sad to see the youth going astray with the times, but we must be vigilant. We have to understand that our time is short and we must be very leary of the things we let enter into our home. We have to study the times to avoid silly mistakes that can lead to a life of sin. I am sorry I am rambling on and on, hopefully this will help you if not please forgive me.
Forgive me
I JUST WANT TO MENTION THAT WE SHOULD REFER TO THE HOLY SPIRIT AS HE NOT it
Forgive me
I am confused by this statement
[quote author=ebnyasoo3 link=topic=8788.msg110190#msg110190 date=1265643395]
I JUST WANT TO MENTION THAT WE SHOULD REFER TO THE HOLY SPIRIT AS HE NOT it
Forgive me
I am confused by this statement
the Holy Spirit is the 3rd Hypostasis, Person of the Holy Trinity. He is God the Holy Spirit. To bring Him down to an "it" is disgrace and a herasy.
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=8788.msg110191#msg110191 date=1265644523]
[quote author=ebnyasoo3 link=topic=8788.msg110190#msg110190 date=1265643395]
I JUST WANT TO MENTION THAT WE SHOULD REFER TO THE HOLY SPIRIT AS HE NOT it
Forgive me
I am confused by this statement
the Holy Spirit is the 3rd Hypostasis, Person of the Holy Trinity. He is God the Holy Spirit. To bring Him down to an "it" is disgrace and a herasy.
I dont know about "heresy" because I was not using it in a context to purposely disgrace The Holy Spirit. But I will definetly change "it". Thanks both of you for pointing that out.
I JUST WANT TO MENTION THAT WE SHOULD REFER TO THE HOLY SPIRIT AS HE NOT it
Forgive me
Thanks Ibnyasoo3a. I thought of the Holy Spirit as God's Spirit, and actually, I wasn't sure what gender to use.
Yes, OK Mina, I see. I will use "He" for the Holy Spirit. I always thought that "it" was gender neutral.
Thanks for pointing that out.
Yea it wasnt meant to disgrace however the Holy Spirit is referred to as a He just as in the bible, "He will teach you all things and bring to remembrance all things which I have said unto you"
Yeah, I think deep down most people on this forum want to see me ex-communicated. I was just saying, if someone was feeling sad and on the verge of suicide, and he met half the people in the Church, they'd have pushed them over the edge to their deaths.
Yeah, I think deep down most people on this forum want to see me ex-communicated.
[Moderated: Let's not become personal during Great Lent - or any time - but especially not now]
[quote author=CertifiedOrthodox link=topic=8788.msg110204#msg110204 date=1265660354]
Yeah, I think deep down most people on this forum want to see me ex-communicated.
nahh......not yet....i dealt with other people before, one person in specific but he is not on this forum anymore. You are awesome compared to him....
[Moderated: Let's not become personal during Great Lent - or any time - but especially not now]
I think my original question is OK? Can you just let anyone answer it? I'm curious to know how the Holy Spirit stops one person from sinning , and yet allows another to go ahead and justify their actions.
I think that the Holy Spirit responds to the yearning of our hearts and the effort we put into becoming holy and God-centered. If yoy remember the parable of the talents. The one who had earned most was given lots more - but his reward depended to an extent on his own effort.
So in the same way I think that when we put in a great deal of effort, in prayer, worship, service and study, the Holy Spirit responds to that effort and grants the grace to be even more active in these things - I mean active especially in an inward sense - so that we may be rewarded even more by a greater grace to grow closer to God in a virtuous circle.
If some do not find themselves aware of sin it is usually because they are grieving the Holy Spirit, who does not force Himself upon us, and we are hardening our hearts so that the rain of the Spirit cannot nourish the seed of the Word of God.
It is not that the Holy Spirit is not pointing out sin to people, but that they do not want the Holy Spirit to do so. If we begin to desire God then even though we may be great failures and sinners we will find that the Holy Spirit already convicts us of sin, but if we do not desire God, even if we are Orthodox Christians by name, then we are already not listening to the Holy Spirit.
Seek and you will find, knock and the door will be answered. There is a pattern of us needing to do something and then God rewarding the effort. And it is like training for a physical exercise. When we begin our muscles are stiff and it is hard to make progress, but the more effort we put in the fitter we get. This is a little like the activity of the Holy Spirit in our lives. The harder we work towards acquiring the Holy Spirit the greater the grace we receive and the more we desire God and so the more we seek him, and therefore the more grace we receive.
Father Peter
I think my original question is OK? Can you just let anyone answer it? I'm curious to know how the Holy Spirit stops one person from sinning , and yet allows another to go ahead and justify their actions.
The Holy Spirit does not stop anyone from sinning. He, as Jesus said: "will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you" (John 14:26).
Same as the first commandment; God said to Adam do not eat of the tree yet he disobeyed. If God stops us from doing sins or bad things than He is taking away the free will that He granted us....and that will not make Him a fully Merciful-Just God.
We are taught what is right to do and not to do within the Spirit in us but then we choose to follow it or not. And this applies to every action we can take on earth not only sex as it is emphasized in this post. It only appears this way because the world today and the society is corrupt.
This is a mystery yes but for as much as it is, we can only do too much to solve it. NO ONE knows the hearts but God. We don't know what runs in people's minds and therefore we can't effect it or change it. We just do our best to get the true massage, as the Holy Spirit but of course not as powerful, and wait on the Lord. We plant the tree, water it and take care of it and just expect fruits. If no fruits, it's a cursed tree and it is not worthy....if there is, than we are as happy as we can ever be. This is a specific issue that can't have a general answer. It all depends on the incidents and on the people.
Thank you, both of you, for controlling yourselves.
I think that the Holy Spirit responds to the yearning of our hearts and the effort we put into becoming holy and God-centered. If yoy remember the parable of the talents. The one who had earned most was given lots more - but his reward depended to an extent on his own effort.
So in the same way I think that when we put in a great deal of effort, in prayer, worship, service and study, the Holy Spirit responds to that effort and grants the grace to be even more active in these things - I mean active especially in an inward sense - so that we may be rewarded even more by a greater grace to grow closer to God in a virtuous circle.
If some do not find themselves aware of sin it is usually because they are grieving the Holy Spirit, who does not force Himself upon us, and we are hardening our hearts so that the rain of the Spirit cannot nourish the seed of the Word of God.
It is not that the Holy Spirit is not pointing out sin to people, but that they do not want the Holy Spirit to do so. If we begin to desire God then even though we may be great failures and sinners we will find that the Holy Spirit already convicts us of sin, but if we do not desire God, even if we are Orthodox Christians by name, then we are already not listening to the Holy Spirit.
Seek and you will find, knock and the door will be answered. There is a pattern of us needing to do something and then God rewarding the effort. And it is like training for a physical exercise. When we begin our muscles are stiff and it is hard to make progress, but the more effort we put in the fitter we get. This is a little like the activity of the Holy Spirit in our lives. The harder we work towards acquiring the Holy Spirit the greater the grace we receive and the more we desire God and so the more we seek him, and therefore the more grace we receive.
Father Peter
Fr. Its a good job you're a priest as I think you'll be the only one to answer this:
Look:
I went to my FoC once, when I was very young, and I just asked a small question. I wanted to know if something was right or wrong. He didnt let me finish the question. He stopped me. Then he says: "were you baptised!?"
I said :"yes". Then he said: "well... you shouldn't need to ask me if something is right or wrong".
I think out of all the things I remember the most, was this statement he said. It has held true since that day.
I'm not talking about people welcoming the Holy Spirit.. no. I'm talking about the Holy Spirit who convicts the heart. Isn't it the Holy Spirit that leads you to repentance? I mean, it is the Holy Spirit that tells your heart that what it is feeling, or doing, or planning is not right.
Further to the new spiritual nature, this is the gift we received during baptism: the Helper.
So - why or how is it that a person can do something remarkably immoral, have the Holy Communion and behave as if everything is OK?
The question is not the act of immorality. We all do that. I am the 1st to lose my temper many times, and I know that I've sinned many times also. But, I KNOW i have sinned. Do you see my point?? I know what I have done is wrong... there's no confusion. There's no.. "well.. you know, its hard to say... because its very technical whether its a sin or not". No .. this is not the case.
How is it someone could be baptised, practicing, and UNABLE to have the Holy Spirit convict their heart of any wrongdoing. Is a sin in my eyes different than a sin for someone else?
He who said "thou shalt not steal" he meant this only for a certain person who was born in the month of may, yet this rule does not apply for those born in December?
I mean - HOW can this "my actions is not a sin, and I can have the Holy Communion without ANY problem whatsoever" exist?
Believe me when I tell you, it is more hurtful the justification of any sin or sinful act than the actual act itself.
This is even proven in the Bible.
Our consciences work like an antenna that picks up a signal from the Holy Spirit, but we can bend our antenna out of shape and we can tune in to another signal.
Many of the Church Fathers teach us that baptism is not magic. It is the beginning of the Christian life. But we can and do lose the grace that was given in our baptism when we sin and become estranged from God. So we have the sacraments of communion and confession to renew in us the grace of God.
In a properly functioning Christian the grace of God convicts us of sin. We become increasingly sensitive to sin, and repulsed by it because it separates us from God. In such a case then it is as your FOC described. The Holy Spirit guides us into truth - yet not apart from the Church.
But in a weak or even a pseudo-Christian, one who has neglected the Holy Spirit through constantly sinning and not repenting, the Holy Spirit does not act in such a way. Therefore there is no shame in receiving Holy Communion, there is no immediate awareness of sin. It is possible for a priest to live in such a way - doing all the right things but lacking an interior life - God willing I will not fall into such a state. But it is possible for all of us.
It begins when we sin and do not listen to the Holy Spirit, or we excuse ourselves. The when we commit that sin again we become more convinced that it is not sin, or is justified by the circumstances. And the Holy Spirit withdraws, more and more. And the voice we hear can easily become that of Satan, who loves to encourage us to be very repentant over certain sins as long as we ignore the fact that we sin grossly in some other way. Thus we begin to live a lie, we become hypocrites condeming others while sin has taken hold in our own hearts - but we are sure that we are holy because our sins are not really sins, are they.
So it is possible for a person to commit a great sin and yet still receive communion without a second thought. The Holy Spirit is no longer welcome in their hearts. Indeed this is the greatest fear we should have when we sin, that the Holy Spirit will finally withdraw from us and we will no longer be led to repent. It would not be possible if the Holy Spirit were properly active in someone's life.
Seraphim of Sarov teaches that the whole aim of the Christian life is to acquire the Holy Spirit. Yet it is possible to seek other things and like the parable of the Sower our spiritual life can wither away until we are left with a husk, perhaps even sure that we are very religious, but lacking any real relationship with God.
Father Peter
How do you know someone has the Holy Spirit?
Nice response fr. Peter.
How do i know someone has the Holy Spirit? I don't.
I'd have thought that being Christian etc, and partaking of the sacraments daily, it would have helped. But, you raised a very important point that I overlooked I suppose: Perhaps in cases where someone does not confess often, nor spend time with themselves to reflect, they could fall in this trap.
Thanks again for your answer.
This can affect deacons, priests, anyone who is respected. That is why humility is so important for those who serve.
Father Peter
I think there are plenty of people sitting in all kinds of churches around this world who do not truly have any relationship with Christ. They have never humbled themselves before God, they have not confessed--much less seen--their own sin, their own falling short, their own need for grace and forgiveness, so how can they ever extend grace to those around them?
Physical affection is natural, and the expression of love physically is God-given, but as CS Lewis wrote: "The monstrosity of sexual intercourse outside of marriage is that those who indulge in it are trying to isolate one kind of union (the sexual) from all the other kinds of union which were intended to go along with it and make up the total union." (CS Lewis, Mere Christianity)
As the Apostle Paul said: There is more to sex than mere skin to skin. Sex is as much spiritual mystery as physical fact. As written in Scripture, "THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE." … We must not pursue the kind of sex that avoids commitment and intimacy, leaving us more lonely than ever – the kind of sex that can never "become one." There is a sense in which sexual sins are different from all others. In sexual sin we violate the sacredness of our own bodies, these bodies that were made for God-given and God-modeled love, for "becoming one" with another. (1 Corinthians 6:16-18)
So many people do not think of sex as sacred--it becomes just a sharing of feeling good, but sex is far more than a physical feeling--not only does it have the potential EVERY SINGLE TIME (in fertile couples) to produce a child, but it has the potential to devastate the heart when love and fidelity do not follow. Sexuality is a gift, but for us women, we easily fall in love through sex...and unfortunately, that is no guarantee that the man is going to also fall in love with us, and when it ends, wow, does it ever devastate a girl. Of course, none of us has any guarantee that just because we are married we are going to have a happy marriage--none of us can guarantee that our husband or wife will not betray us--but at least we have had the opportunity to be equally yoked.
I did not listen to the Holy Spirit when I was definitely warned against marrying my (Iranian, agnostic, atheist) boyfriend back in 1984. Our marriage was filled with pain and our divorce was final on our 25th anniversary. One of the biggest heartaches of my whole life was that I believed in God and was married to someone who had no interest in it; he could not understand it at all and thought of me as a fanatic because I loved Christ. If we had not had premarital sex, maybe I would have had the power to move away from him...
"Above all else, guard your affections. For they influence everything else in your life." Proverbs 4:23
do you attend a church now?
it's very important to meet God in the context of His church, and to seek out people who are living a holy life and can help you in your spiritual journey.
The Bible says (Paul) that "A true Jew is anyone whose heart is right with God" (Living Bible)--so that who we seem to be on the outside is of little consequence compared to whether or not our hearts have been circumcised by the Lord.
I think there are plenty of people sitting in all kinds of churches around this world who do not truly have any relationship with Christ. They have never humbled themselves before God, they have not confessed--much less seen--their own sin, their own falling short, their own need for grace and forgiveness, so how can they ever extend grace to those around them?
Physical affection is natural, and the expression of love physically is God-given, but as CS Lewis wrote: "The monstrosity of sexual intercourse outside of marriage is that those who indulge in it are trying to isolate one kind of union (the sexual) from all the other kinds of union which were intended to go along with it and make up the total union." (CS Lewis, Mere Christianity)
As the Apostle Paul said: There is more to sex than mere skin to skin. Sex is as much spiritual mystery as physical fact. As written in Scripture, "THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE." … We must not pursue the kind of sex that avoids commitment and intimacy, leaving us more lonely than ever – the kind of sex that can never "become one." There is a sense in which sexual sins are different from all others. In sexual sin we violate the sacredness of our own bodies, these bodies that were made for God-given and God-modeled love, for "becoming one" with another. (1 Corinthians 6:16-18)
So many people do not think of sex as sacred--it becomes just a sharing of feeling good, but sex is far more than a physical feeling--not only does it have the potential EVERY SINGLE TIME (in fertile couples) to produce a child, but it has the potential to devastate the heart when love and fidelity do not follow. Sexuality is a gift, but for us women, we easily fall in love through sex...and unfortunately, that is no guarantee that the man is going to also fall in love with us, and when it ends, wow, does it ever devastate a girl. Of course, none of us has any guarantee that just because we are married we are going to have a happy marriage--none of us can guarantee that our husband or wife will not betray us--but at least we have had the opportunity to be equally yoked.
I did not listen to the Holy Spirit when I was definitely warned against marrying my (Iranian, agnostic, atheist) boyfriend back in 1984. Our marriage was filled with pain and our divorce was final on our 25th anniversary. One of the biggest heartaches of my whole life was that I believed in God and was married to someone who had no interest in it; he could not understand it at all and thought of me as a fanatic because I loved Christ. If we had not had premarital sex, maybe I would have had the power to move away from him...
"Above all else, guard your affections. For they influence everything else in your life." Proverbs 4:23
I agree with Mabsoota. I thought this was really good.
I know the title of my thread is about sex b4 marriage, but i think that is misleading. I only used that as an example. But it doesn't HAVE TO be about sex before marriage. It could be about lying, bearing false witness, killing... etc.
How is it people can do all these things and not have the Holy Spirit guide them? Or shout at them!?
I only used sex before marriage, because I do believe the Holy Spirit would have convicted your heart against this anyway had you been practicing.
But - please don't get me wrong, I'm sorry for your divorce, but surely, in God's eyes it would be beneficial for you to have stayed with your husband.
I find it REALLY mind boggling women who tell me that they divorced their husbands because he didnt "love Christ". Christ has respected your marriage, and you are married. You are now divorcing for your love of Christ. That surely is not wise nor Christian also!? Is it!?
It is also the case that clergy can be flattered into thinking they are more spiritual than they are. And the praise of others can convince someone that what others think of them is the reality. Thus sin can be overlooked or excused.
This can affect deacons, priests, anyone who is respected. That is why humility is so important for those who serve.
Father Peter
So flattery can make you forget the difference between right and wrong?
We should stop kissing the hand's of priests in that case. For their own good.
You kiss the hands of the priest, as he holds the Lords body and blood. Simple.
Yeah, but some priests, and I know them personally, like to have their hands kissed.
Im just suggesting that perhaps it is best that we do not kiss their hands in order to not make them stumble.
Secondly, your mouth eats the body and blood of Christ. Which is higher: your mouth, or their hand?
Both are equal.
[quote author=coptic youth link=topic=8788.msg110680#msg110680 date=1266326411]
You kiss the hands of the priest, as he holds the Lords body and blood. Simple.
Yeah, but some priests, and I know them personally, like to have their hands kissed.
Im just suggesting that perhaps it is best that we do not kiss their hands in order to not make them stumble.
You are basing this idea on that fact that you know the priest's heart and what he thinks. That is NOT the case in general therefore you can just draw a general conclusion as so.
NO ONE KNOWS THAT HEARTS EXCEPT GOD
(Can EVERYONE read the previous sentence or do i make it bigger?? WHAT?!
OK...i'll follow with this...
NOTHING changes here...even if your mouth eats the body and blood of Christ, you will not get to do that before Abouna does give It to you.
What you are considering is like saying, Jesus Christ gave me grace therefore I am more graceful then Him.....which is just so absurd
I didnt understand a word from your last post.
Anyway, Fr Peter said that:
[quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=8788.msg110227#msg110227 date=1265669947]
It is also the case that clergy can be flattered into thinking they are more spiritual than they are. And the praise of others can convince someone that what others think of them is the reality. Thus sin can be overlooked or excused.
This can affect deacons, priests, anyone who is respected. That is why humility is so important for those who serve.
Father Peter
It was a suggestion to make sure that they do not get big headed. I know many priests that loved to have their hands kissed, and they enjoyed the power of being priests. I know this, because THEY TOLD ME PERSONALLY. They told me that they loved people to confess to them as it massaged their egos. They said that to me. OK!?
If you have any better ideas to help the situation, feel free to suggest them.
Secondly, its not right, in my opinion, to go and divorce your spouse because "you love Christ" and they do not love Christ. If you really love Christ, STICK WITH THE PERSON YOU MARRIED!!!
It is the case that perhaps some priests may well enjoy being priests in a prideful and sinful manner, but that does mean that all do, or most do.
I know that for myself, though I am very grateful to God for the ministry He has given me, nevertheless I am well aware of my weakness and unworthiness. When my hand is kissed by one of my congregation it is not because of my own worthiness but because of the priesthood of which I am an unworthy representative. The priesthood does not belong to me, but to my bishop and to Christ Himself.
I would also suggest that we not tell people how they should proceed in regard to divorcing or not. We do not know the cirucmstances, unless we are that person's priest or close friend or family member. Therefore we should not speak hastily.
Father Peter
if someone tells us that their husband or wife is not a christian, and does not love christ, and subsequently this is the reason for divorce, SURELY Christ Himself would prefer that you stick with the person you've married anyway?
Surely that would be the Christian thing to do?
Would you not agree?
Of course we do not know the full story for this particular case, but GENERALLY speaking, surely that cannot be Christ's wish for us to divorce because our spouse does not share our love our for Christ?
Also, I'm not telling anyone to stop kissing a priest's hand. I'm just saying that perhaps its not a bad idea if we do not if kissing their hand makes them feel all tingly inside.
This topic is not best suited for an open internet forum.
Father Peter