OK I'm sorry guys, I've been following this thread from the beginning, trying to see where this is going, and CLEARLY this whole thing is going nowhere... I don't understand why people are even trying to bother with this guy... I mean COMMON!!!! Everytime someone brings up a really good point, this muslim guy comes up with a completely different topic....we respong to every single one of his comments, yet he has nothing to say about ours....you call that arguing?!?! thats not arguing...that's complete bogus. so all i have to say to this muslim guy is....SERIOUSLY dude...DROP IT!!!!! GO AWAY ALREADY!!!!
Your quran is a complete contradiction, regression, digression and perversion of ýthe truth contained in the Holy Bible.
ý
If I was to look back and forth trying to sum up Islam in ONE sentence, I couldn't have ýsaid it BETTER. Amen to that sister. Keep posting.ý
Just to comment on that "monk" incident zee mentioned. This act was STAGED. It did ýnot take place in ANY Church or Monastery. they staged a ROOM to look like that. ýSICK you say, I agree, sick and Pitiful to resort to such low and dirty ways trying to ýblasphemy on a religion their best can't Comprehend.ý
It is also sad and pitiful that so many intelligent people can believe in such bogus ýteachings. As one website Iqbal referenced. Mohammad chose a product that sells ýý(Gardens with overflowing rivers of Milk and honey, with 72 virgins, etc... ) I hate to be a ýwoman in that religion, ooops, I mean ideology. ý
Zee, again, I repeat, start separating political issues with religious ones. You admit that ýmost of the western society is a secular system. Has nothing to do with the church. (some ýare starting to realized that this may be a bad thing). What secular governments do is ýdifferent than religiously affected political leaders do in following of their own religious ýteachings.ý
I read your last post more than once, I find it humors at times and sad at others. ý
ý
It is irrational for us to say that we are working towards the standard of God. This ýis because if God has created us and the reality is that we are on this earth then God must ýgive us practical solutions in all aspects in our lives be it economical, social etc for our ýlives on earth.
ý
So, god just took the roll of a chess maker and player. He created us equal with the ýanimals, even the animals can come up with a system that works for them, but humans ýcant. Why is it so hard to comprehend that God would like us to go up to His standards? ýAfter all He created us?ý
Now nothing in all what you said is more ridicules than this:ý
ý
But because Christianity does not provide solutions for all human problems it like ýother religions nowadays just goes with the wind.
ý
May I remind you that Christianity was around 500+ years before Islam? There were ýtimes when emperors would wake up in the morning with the sole purpose of Killing ýChristians. Dicleation, a Roman Emperor killed over 80,000 Christians in ONE DAY. ýAnd DO NOT let me start on the list of Christians in Egypt that were killed, tortured and ýpersecuted during various Islamic rulers in Egypt. If Christianity was to "go with the ýwind" as you say, it PROBABLY would have when Christ was Crucified. But the fact ýthat Christianity lives to day is a proof that thru out tribulations for 2000 years, ýChristianity survived by the Christians, the true Christians, not by a sword, not by being ýcowards, not by raping of women and children, not by forcing people to convert. ý I think any body can take a gun or a weapon and fight, that doesn’t take courage, but ýwhen someone like St. George, who was a general at his time suffers for 7 years for what ýhe believes, I think we are talking about a heavenly belief and a heavenly religion, ýsomething you may NEVER know anything about. ý
Again, zee, All I am asking you is try to reason some of these things. READ your quran, ýquestion it, see what doesn't fall within reason, ask questions, ask your leaders, I INVITE ýYOU to ask those who you consider knowledgeable in your ideology. Then pick up a ýBible, read it, ASK questions as well. 'Oh, taste and see that the LORD is good; Blessed ýis the man who trusts in Him!" (Psalm 34:8)ý
The reality is that as humans we live on this earth and our actions, on this earth will either give us heaven or hell.
Zee,
The religion of Islam teaches that no one knows for sure{except perhaps martyers}if their going to "paradise" and even Mohammed stated that he, himself, didnt have the full assurance that he was going to "paradise".So according to Islam your actions are not all that important in deciding your eternal destiny.It is rather as you Muslims say,"If Allah wills it". I only bring this up because it seems{as others have pointed out}that you dont even understand the religion of Islam completely or that you subcribe to a brand of Islamic belief that does not accurately portray Islam in it's historical context.To say as you've done in previous posts that Islam is not a religion of violence and terror is to blatently deny over a thousand years of verified and documented historical record.Islam has always been a bloodthirsty religion,spreading violence and hatred wherever its been proclamated.Even today when you see Muslims protesting in the street you can see the malaignant influence of Islam at work in the features and facial expressions of these people.They are so full of hate and malice,chanting death to all their enemies,that you can almost literally see and feel the presence of Satan;it is palpatible.So please dont portray Islam as some kind of force for good,some benevolant ideology seeking the welfare of humankind,for assuredly, it is not any of these things but rather it is indeed a deadly poision introduced by Satan to inflict the human race and to keep poeple from coming to the true God through the person of Jesus Christ. It is not a religion or ideology of enlightenment and moderation but is in fact a deception perpretrated on the human race for its destruction.History as well as the teachings of the Hadiths and the Quran bear witness to this fact.This cannot be hidden or explained away.
Sorry Guys, I have an aunt with that name, Iqbal. I just assumed it was a Ladies name. Either case, I am sorry, didn't mean to offend you, and whoever you are, YOU ROCK. jfranklin, Awosome post.
i wish to share something i read concerning islam; maybe it was from this site lol, but it's still cool:
The devil couldn't prevent salvation on the cross, so what did he do...
he makes a new huge religion, that contains everything; prayer, fasting, alms. It just lacks the most important thing: SALVATION on the cross through Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
Makes sense if u think about it. The devil must have been smart to create such a religion as islam!!!
oooooooo, okay, lolx...i'm so sorry :-[ Thank u so much for making that clear...I got scared because I felt i offended someone meanly and yeahh u get the idea....
You'll have to forgive me cuz I'm just real slow than usual slowness so bare with me guys....so sorry :-*
I have been keeping up with the posts and was wondering why no one mentioned that the quran actually states that they believe in the miracle that Jesus was born from the Virgin Mary. With that said, HOW DO THEY NOT BELIEVE IN CHRIST THE SON OF GOD??? I don't recall mohammed performing miracles or being born of a Virgin. But rather they think that this mohammed fellow is a righteous prophet? I really didn't know that prophets marry several women, even young, preeteen girls (its in the quran), threaten lives of those who wouldn't convert, and tell his people to hate, not love their enemy! For those of you who might not understand the context, that was sarcasm at its best. Quite frankly, I am surprised that his actions caught on, mohammed was just a man, not a messenger, not a prophet.
What muslims fail to understand is their own quran, which is filled with contradictions left and right. Actually, islam is nothing other than an derivation of the old testament. On the website posted below, there is a message written by muslims apologizing for the attacks of September the 11th, this is the first time I have ever agreed with them, check it out:
So there are intellgent Muslims, umm, I wonder, when are they going to convert? Jyaft, thanks for the post. If we start talking about the contradictions of Islam, or the mistakes of mohammed, we will be here till kingdom come. (Actually, we were thinking of starting a thread about that, if anyone is interested, let me know.) but that was a good post.
I agree with iqbal. Islam isn't a religion of peace. It clearly states in the quaran that muslims have the right to kill non-muslims. Does that sound like a religion of peace to you?
First of all, please don't quote me on anything, as I am a sinner and some of the things I may say may not be a true representative of christianity.
Secondly, I will go as far as agree with you on the fact that Islam is an ideology, and that it will not require the killing of anyone as soon as it rules the state (as you have stated earlier that hurting someone under the state is hurting Mohammad etc.; but killing for the purpose of taking over the country to be an islamic state is alright). So are there any muslim states (ie a country that follows islam as the law) out there right now in the world?
I believe there are; examples include Iran, Saudi Arabia, pakistan, Afghanistan. In those countries, are there many christians? are there many hindus? are there many jews? in short, are there many people who can freely practice their relegion? answer is no. Why? because of their fear of the government and the people. Can you have the guts to go up to an Irani judge to ask for a deed to open a church? and if you do, do you have the guts to use that church and try to convince people around you to come pray with you? If you don't want to take my word for it, then go this link http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2005/61688.htm it will show the country report on humane rights by the US department of State (2005). There is a complete lis on this link http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2005/c17095.htm that will show all the reports of the countries in the near east and north africa. Trust me, if the country's laws are even near to being run as your definition of an islamic state, then it won't look like a very promising place to live.
In short, even if Islam is just an ideology that provides laws to live by, it isn't a very good system to go by.
If there aren't any islamic states out there, then maybe you aren't going about the right way to taking other countries over? Maybe you should stop the killing and the violence and try other ways of taking over other countries, but of course that would go against the way that the Koraan says to do this. BUT if the Koraan's way isn't working, maybe the Koraan is wrong.
Please keep an open mind to my statements, as I keep an open mind to yours. And feel free to correct any of my statements, I am learning just like all of the users of this forum.
I forgot to mention a reply to one of your former statements, zee:
maybe he is defecting the anger the muslims of Egypt have towards him for allowing the Americans to use bases within Egypt to attack the muslims of Iraq to copts. So that they dont understand the real problem is the ruler himself.
Our brothers the muslims have been persecuting us from the moment they set foot in Egypt. LONG before any of these political complications.
The history of Islam in Egypt and its treatment of the Copts hardly supports the idea that it is a harmless religion wanting only to live in peace. Of course, once the world is Muslim that may be the case, but since that is not going to happen, peace is a long way off.
It says much for the Christian forbearance of the Copts that people here have reacted so forbearingly to some of the statements from our Muslim friend. The 'Crusades' represented a very tiny period of history in which the Christian West tried to win back the Holy Land; before 1099 there were none, and after 1200 they were over. Islam, by contrast, was spread by conquest from the beginning, and seeks to spread itself in the same way today.
I am afraid that the real complaint of Islam is that after the late seventeenth century, when the Ottomans failed to conquer Vienna (the end of a 'crusade' that had lasted since the beginning of Islam), the Muslims failed to win a single war against the Christian west - which did not stop the Ottomans behaving abominably to their Christian minorities - especially the Armenians (something that the Turkish government will prosecute you for saying, even though it has been proven again and again).
In Shakespeare's The Tempest Caliban cannot bear to look in a mirror because it reveals how awful he looks; too much of the Muslim world behaves in this fashion. Of course, not all Muslims are like this - but those who make all the noise are, and they do themselves and their faith a grave disservice. Christ calls on us to love our enemies - not exterminate them. Thus, for all the harmful things Islam has done, we still love our Muslim brothers - which is why some of us ask them to take a real look in the mirror - and then turn to Christ and repent - with the rest of us sinners.
Comments
ýý
If I was to look back and forth trying to sum up Islam in ONE sentence, I couldn't have ýsaid it BETTER. Amen to that sister. Keep posting.ý
Just to comment on that "monk" incident zee mentioned. This act was STAGED. It did ýnot take place in ANY Church or Monastery. they staged a ROOM to look like that. ýSICK you say, I agree, sick and Pitiful to resort to such low and dirty ways trying to ýblasphemy on a religion their best can't Comprehend.ý
It is also sad and pitiful that so many intelligent people can believe in such bogus ýteachings. As one website Iqbal referenced. Mohammad chose a product that sells ýý(Gardens with overflowing rivers of Milk and honey, with 72 virgins, etc... ) I hate to be a ýwoman in that religion, ooops, I mean ideology. ý
Zee, again, I repeat, start separating political issues with religious ones. You admit that ýmost of the western society is a secular system. Has nothing to do with the church. (some ýare starting to realized that this may be a bad thing). What secular governments do is ýdifferent than religiously affected political leaders do in following of their own religious ýteachings.ý
I read your last post more than once, I find it humors at times and sad at others. ý
ý ý
So, god just took the roll of a chess maker and player. He created us equal with the ýanimals, even the animals can come up with a system that works for them, but humans ýcant. Why is it so hard to comprehend that God would like us to go up to His standards? ýAfter all He created us?ý
Now nothing in all what you said is more ridicules than this:ý
ýý
May I remind you that Christianity was around 500+ years before Islam? There were ýtimes when emperors would wake up in the morning with the sole purpose of Killing ýChristians. Dicleation, a Roman Emperor killed over 80,000 Christians in ONE DAY. ýAnd DO NOT let me start on the list of Christians in Egypt that were killed, tortured and ýpersecuted during various Islamic rulers in Egypt. If Christianity was to "go with the ýwind" as you say, it PROBABLY would have when Christ was Crucified. But the fact ýthat Christianity lives to day is a proof that thru out tribulations for 2000 years, ýChristianity survived by the Christians, the true Christians, not by a sword, not by being ýcowards, not by raping of women and children, not by forcing people to convert. ý
I think any body can take a gun or a weapon and fight, that doesn’t take courage, but ýwhen someone like St. George, who was a general at his time suffers for 7 years for what ýhe believes, I think we are talking about a heavenly belief and a heavenly religion, ýsomething you may NEVER know anything about. ý
Again, zee, All I am asking you is try to reason some of these things. READ your quran, ýquestion it, see what doesn't fall within reason, ask questions, ask your leaders, I INVITE ýYOU to ask those who you consider knowledgeable in your ideology. Then pick up a ýBible, read it, ASK questions as well. 'Oh, taste and see that the LORD is good; Blessed ýis the man who trusts in Him!" (Psalm 34:8)ý
Zee,
The religion of Islam teaches that no one knows for sure{except perhaps martyers}if their going to "paradise" and even Mohammed stated that he, himself, didnt have the full assurance that he was going to "paradise".So according to Islam your actions are not all that important in deciding your eternal destiny.It is rather as you Muslims say,"If Allah wills it". I only bring this up because it seems{as others have pointed out}that you dont even understand the religion of Islam completely or that you subcribe to a brand of Islamic belief that does not accurately portray Islam in it's historical context.To say as you've done in previous posts that Islam is not a religion of violence and terror is to blatently deny over a thousand years of verified and documented historical record.Islam has always been a bloodthirsty religion,spreading violence and hatred wherever its been proclamated.Even today when you see Muslims protesting in the street you can see the malaignant influence of Islam at work in the features and facial expressions of these people.They are so full of hate and malice,chanting death to all their enemies,that you can almost literally see and feel the presence of Satan;it is palpatible.So please dont portray Islam as some kind of force for good,some benevolant ideology seeking the welfare of humankind,for assuredly, it is not any of these things but rather it is indeed a deadly poision introduced by Satan to inflict the human race and to keep poeple from coming to the true God through the person of Jesus Christ. It is not a religion or ideology of enlightenment and moderation but is in fact a deception perpretrated on the human race for its destruction.History as well as the teachings of the Hadiths and the Quran bear witness to this fact.This cannot be hidden or explained away.
Either case, I am sorry, didn't mean to offend you, and whoever you are, YOU ROCK.
jfranklin, Awosome post.
The devil couldn't prevent salvation on the cross, so what did he do...
he makes a new huge religion, that contains everything; prayer, fasting, alms. It just lacks the most important thing: SALVATION on the cross through Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
Makes sense if u think about it. The devil must have been smart to create such a religion as islam!!!
Great post,Hos Erof ! Once again...few words,much wisdom...lol
You'll have to forgive me cuz I'm just real slow than usual slowness so bare with me guys....so sorry :-*
GOD BLESS ALL! :-*
I have been keeping up with the posts and was wondering why no one mentioned that the quran actually states that they believe in the miracle that Jesus was born from the Virgin Mary. With that said, HOW DO THEY NOT BELIEVE IN CHRIST THE SON OF GOD??? I don't recall mohammed performing miracles or being born of a Virgin. But rather they think that this mohammed fellow is a righteous prophet? I really didn't know that prophets marry several women, even young, preeteen girls (its in the quran), threaten lives of those who wouldn't convert, and tell his people
to hate, not love their enemy! For those of you who might not understand the context, that was sarcasm at its best. Quite frankly, I am surprised that his actions caught on, mohammed was just a man, not a messenger, not a prophet.
What muslims fail to understand is their own quran, which is filled with contradictions left and right. Actually, islam is nothing other than an derivation of the old testament. On the website posted below, there is a message written by muslims apologizing for the attacks of September the 11th, this is the first time I have ever agreed with them, check it out:
http://drinkthis.typepad.com/main/2004/09/muslims_freely_.html
Jyaft, thanks for the post. If we start talking about the contradictions of Islam, or the mistakes of mohammed, we will be here till kingdom come. (Actually, we were thinking of starting a thread about that, if anyone is interested, let me know.)
but that was a good post.
First of all, please don't quote me on anything, as I am a sinner and some of the things I may say may not be a true representative of christianity.
Secondly, I will go as far as agree with you on the fact that Islam is an ideology, and that it will not require the killing of anyone as soon as it rules the state (as you have stated earlier that hurting someone under the state is hurting Mohammad etc.; but killing for the purpose of taking over the country to be an islamic state is alright). So are there any muslim states (ie a country that follows islam as the law) out there right now in the world?
I believe there are; examples include Iran, Saudi Arabia, pakistan, Afghanistan. In those countries, are there many christians? are there many hindus? are there many jews? in short, are there many people who can freely practice their relegion? answer is no. Why? because of their fear of the government and the people. Can you have the guts to go up to an Irani judge to ask for a deed to open a church? and if you do, do you have the guts to use that church and try to convince people around you to come pray with you?
If you don't want to take my word for it, then go this link http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2005/61688.htm
it will show the country report on humane rights by the US department of State (2005). There is a complete lis on this link http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2005/c17095.htm that will show all the reports of the countries in the near east and north africa. Trust me, if the country's laws are even near to being run as your definition of an islamic state, then it won't look like a very promising place to live.
In short, even if Islam is just an ideology that provides laws to live by, it isn't a very good system to go by.
If there aren't any islamic states out there, then maybe you aren't going about the right way to taking other countries over? Maybe you should stop the killing and the violence and try other ways of taking over other countries, but of course that would go against the way that the Koraan says to do this. BUT if the Koraan's way isn't working, maybe the Koraan is wrong.
Please keep an open mind to my statements, as I keep an open mind to yours. And feel free to correct any of my statements, I am learning just like all of the users of this forum.
Thanks,
Bishoy
I forgot to mention a reply to one of your former statements, zee: Our brothers the muslims have been persecuting us from the moment they set foot in Egypt. LONG before any of these political complications.
Thank you,
Bishoy
It says much for the Christian forbearance of the Copts that people here have reacted so forbearingly to some of the statements from our Muslim friend. The 'Crusades' represented a very tiny period of history in which the Christian West tried to win back the Holy Land; before 1099 there were none, and after 1200 they were over. Islam, by contrast, was spread by conquest from the beginning, and seeks to spread itself in the same way today.
I am afraid that the real complaint of Islam is that after the late seventeenth century, when the Ottomans failed to conquer Vienna (the end of a 'crusade' that had lasted since the beginning of Islam), the Muslims failed to win a single war against the Christian west - which did not stop the Ottomans behaving abominably to their Christian minorities - especially the Armenians (something that the Turkish government will prosecute you for saying, even though it has been proven again and again).
In Shakespeare's The Tempest Caliban cannot bear to look in a mirror because it reveals how awful he looks; too much of the Muslim world behaves in this fashion. Of course, not all Muslims are like this - but those who make all the noise are, and they do themselves and their faith a grave disservice. Christ calls on us to love our enemies - not exterminate them. Thus, for all the harmful things Islam has done, we still love our Muslim brothers - which is why some of us ask them to take a real look in the mirror - and then turn to Christ and repent - with the rest of us sinners.
INXC,
Anglian