[quote author=Ashamed link=topic=8192.msg104821#msg104821 date=1248155921] can someone who has sinned (fornicated) get married? or must they live without marriage as a punishment?
they can. But of course repentance and confession and many other things need to take place.
The life which God gives us is not a matter of punishment. We are chastened and pruned so that we might become holy and perfect, but God does not punish us out of anger. He always has in mind our salvation and what is necessary for it. As we pray in the Agpeya many times each day..
'God does not wish the death of the sinner, but rather that he repents and lives'.
Many of the great saints were great sinners. This does not excuse their sin, but it shows us that the grace of God can work wonders in any life which is wholly committed to Him. It is possible for you to become a saint. Your life is not ended because you have sinned. Repentance is not a feeling of sorrow - feelings usually let us down - it is a deliberate act of turning your life towards God, even if he never grants you any feelings of his presence.
May God have mercy upon you, as he always has, and be assured that many here are praying for you.
Do not think about the future, but think about today. How will you live today in humility, repentance, commitment to God? God will take care of the rest. 'Seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you'.
It is never too late with God. Even the thief on the cross found life with Christ in his last moments. And God willing you have a long life ahead of you to serve God. Let the thoughts of your sinfulness spur you on to a life of holiness. Do not let them cause you to despair. All of us are sinners, and none of us deserve anything other than an eternity separated from God. But he has given us his life, though we do not deserve it , and he has given you his life, though you have allowed it to become choked by weeds. Now clear those weeds away and let the seed of the Word flourish in you.
I think what ashamed means is that because some one has fornicated, although God may forgive them, is it just justice that they do not get married as perhaps their spouse may not forgive them?
I mean, yes, on the one hand - God does forgive, however, in a Coptic Community, losing one's virginity before marriage is quite a serious affair.
Do not think about the future, but think about today. How will you live today in humility, repentance, commitment to God? God will take care of the rest. 'Seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you'.
this quote is my daily motto... except if you already have a suitor, then in that case you would think about it together... but in the end, live today as if it were your last day, do the work for today... and if we're alive tomorrow, and the suitor comes then, then by all means start thinking about it then...
but the life of repentance is today, it needs patience... so as I always say... focus on God first... and through the relationship with God, you will become successful in school or work, and due to your success that you did through God, God will then give you a good partner with your education level, and he/she will be the best of the best!
just as God is patient with you, you also be patient with Him!
What I mean is, that God commanded that if someone cheats on their wife/husband, and they divorce, then they are not allowed to marry again. So does that mean that someone who has sinned (before being married) can never marry in the first place? I just want to know from God's perspective ... not a partners one.
[quote author=Ashamed link=topic=8192.msg104832#msg104832 date=1248216195] What I mean is, that God commanded that if someone cheats on their wife/husband, and they divorce, then they are not allowed to marry again. So does that mean that someone who has sinned (before being married) can never marry in the first place? I just want to know from God's perspective ... not a partners one.
first and formost, as Fr Peter said and SuperMAN(BAM) have said, worry about God first. worry about what's in heaven for you. the door of repentance is always open.
now if there is divorce in this case, it all depends on how church-based that divorce is and how the same rule gave you the right to marry again.
The Christian life is one of love and forgiveness with the aim of forming the image of Christ in each soul. It is not a matter of punishment and laws. We are freed from the Law, or rather we submit to the law of love in Christ. When there is discipline this is not punishment but is for our salvation, it is to bring us to repentance, not to burden us with an unbearable weight of guilt.
If we had sinned in breaking the fast we would not expect the Church to teach us never to eat again as a punishment. If we had spoken out of anger we would not expect the Church to teach us never to speak again. We are required to put the properties of our body and soul to RIGHT use, not to abandon them. So if we break the fast it shows usually that we are not able to control our appetites and we will be encouraged to keep the fast in future so that our desire for food and other things is balanced. If we have spoken in anger we might be counselled to keep silent at certain times, when someone is starting to irritate us so that we can learn to manage and balance our speech.
Likewise even with sexual sins. The aim of the Christian spiritual tradition is to teach us right use instead of wrong use, not to abandon the use of aspects of our humanity altogether. You have sinned in a sexual way, but it is clear even from Tasbeha.org that you are not alone. And we know that even when we look twice at an attractive man or woman we fall into sexual sin. Sexual sin begins not with a physical action but a mental assent to temptation. If the punishment for falling into sexual sin was never to be able to marry then few people would be allowed to marry.
And in terms of marriage, we might ask, what is the better foundation? For one partner to have committed a sexual sin in the past, and repented completely, and received absolution; or for a partner to be selfish and often angry, not even considering that they need to repent of anything?
Let it be clear, I am not excusing sexual sin at all. It is deadly. But it is forgiven by God, and many of those who are most bound by sexual sin do not commit fornication, or even sin in an outward way. But the lust of the eyes is also deadly and is also a sexual sin.
It is very good and healthy that you have a clear sense of what you have been rescued from, and that completely undeserved, God has given you another chance. But do not allow your sense of repentance to become a burden of anxiety about the future. If God has forgiven you through the medium of your priest then you are forgiven. You have made a new start, as we all have to make a new start each day - or even more often. Ours sins are serious, very serious. But God's forgiveness is greater. We need to learn to live in the balance of trusting in God's forgiveness - believing that like the Prodigal Son our Father has clothed us in a new robe that we didn't deserve - but also being mindful of the pigsty we sunk into because of our sin so that the thought of how close we came to utter ruin preserves us from taking God's grace for granted.
As has been said on the thread before, don't worry about the future. God has plans for you, plans to bless you and bring joy to you. Serve God today and let Him bear the burden of thoughts about the future. If our life is hid with Christ in God then the future, even when we face trials of many kinds, is an adventure with God, something to be looked forward to, not something to be feared.
[quote author=Ashamed link=topic=8192.msg104832#msg104832 date=1248216195] What I mean is, that God commanded that if someone cheats on their wife/husband, and they divorce, then they are not allowed to marry again. So does that mean that someone who has sinned (before being married) can never marry in the first place? I just want to know from God's perspective ... not a partners one. Thanks for clarifying that.
Actually - I think Fr. Peter's response sums up your problem then!?
Are you concerned thought that God will punish you for your past sins? I would tend to agree with Fr. Peter still (if that is the case) - that you should see any punishment as chastisement - God's punishment for us is to correct us, not to harm us more.
i totally agree with father peter. i would like to add no-one has a 'right' to a virgin husband or wife. if u think u do have this 'right', just think how many sins God forgave you and forgive as you would like to be forgiven.
The question I’m going to ask might not be strictly related with the original question. It’s just something I been wondering about for a while and couldn’t find a better place to ask it. What is our church's view on a fornicator being ordained? Can a fornicator become a reader, singer, sub-deacon, deacon, priest etc? In Christ Theophilus
Theophilus, I'm not giving an official response, but if we look at it as any other sin, who is without sin? Besides, St. Moses the Strong became a priest and St. Augustine became a bishop!!
So then actually.. God forgives and forgets those who truly repent, and they can then serve Him in His Church as He wills.
By the way, on the actual topic, I do think the potential spouse has a right to know--there should be no secrets. Then it's all up to whether they're comfortable with that and are willing to look past it. I would disagree with mabsoota in that no one has a right to a virgin spouse--for some that's very important, esp. in the case of STDs, etc. I think it depends on the person. I don't believe it's wrong if someone isn't comfortable having a non-virgin spouse. So ya you can marry, but be open and you'll find pepople willing to look past your sins-- God will take care, don't worry.
saint Augustine and saint Moses the strong, are all repentant!
Saint Moses was not ordained right away, and Saint Augustine also took A LONG time, until he overcame the addiction to his lust, as mentioned in his confessions!
so if 3abas just sinned, he would not become a priest or anything, until his father of confession sees improvement and true repentance!
for the main topic, many virgins are not suitable to be wives/husbands, and believe me there ARE MANY non virgins that repented, and are beyond better than any virgin!
really not many can say anything about this topic, sometimes God gives you a big cross, if you are willing to accept it and know you can cherish it, then accept it... otherwise don't!
[quote author=mabsoota link=topic=8192.msg104851#msg104851 date=1248297485] i totally agree with father peter. i would like to add no-one has a 'right' to a virgin husband or wife. if u think u do have this 'right', just think how many sins God forgave you and forgive as you would like to be forgiven.
There are a few points here I must stress:
a) Repentance and confession - God makes the prostitute into a virgin - so as a spouse, if you marry someone who has fornicated and repented, then you are still marrying a virgin. b) Concerning USER00's point that - about STD's etc - I would also agree. Sin has with it consequences, and that is both earthly and spiritual. If you have contracted an STD/AIDS/etc from sexual promiscuity, then I think you should be open about it with your future spouse - and if they do not marry you because of this, then that's fine. That's not wrong. c) I would agree still with mabsoota 100% that no one has the right to reject another person because they are "not virgins" if they have repented and confessed their sins.
St Peter said "What God has made clean, do not call common". (God said that to him actually) - would this verse from the Bible apply in this case? That whatever God has cleansed and purified and justified, we should not consider it unclean.
I'm still sad about point B. Its a serious reality and the product of sin. Should you marry or not someone with STD's? I don't know - but Im interested in Fr. Peter's response.
Actually when I was an Evangelical and during my late teens a couple of my friends both became HIV positive due to contaminated blood products, they were haemophiliacs and had to take Factor 8 to stop themselves bleeding uncontrollably.
There were many things wrong with my Evangelical congregation, but at least I can be pleased that they continued to be treated 'normally', and took communion in the manner we practiced, although they would usually receive the cup last. I lived my life with them for years and years and never really thought of being infected or ever that they should be 'shunned' in some way.
Both of them eventually married. They married two sisters, both of whom were nurses and so knew the facts about HIV/AIDS rather than the myths. They have both gone on to have families using various IVF treatments (this thread is not about IVF).
So I see no reason why a person should not choose to marry someone whom they loved even if they had an illness of some sort. I have seen it happen among my own friends.
Nevertheless these were both infected through a medical treatment that went wrong. It would require even more soul-searching if a prospective partner had become infertile through an abortion or STD infection, or if they had had a great many partners in a promsicuous lifestyle. To a great degree it is a question of whether the non-infected, non-'sinful' partner (and none of us are sinful at all), is mature enough to forgive this persons past as God has done. If one partner thinks he or she is holy and the other is a sinner then the marriage is likely to fail in any case. If he or she considers themselves a greater sinner because their sin has all been conducted in secret, then there is the possibility of a fruitful marriage.
Would we absolutely avoid marrying someone who had been an alcoholic? Or who had contracted bronchial problems through smoking? Or had been wheel-chair bound by crashing their car after smoking pot? Are we so perfect that we must avoid at all costs anyone who is slightly damaged?
In my experience we are all damaged goods in one way or another. I see that my wife, my mother and father, all bear traces of the trials that their own families have been through, and this also has affected me in some way. I am not a perfectly balanced, perfectly holy person. I am damaged and in need of healing. What if my wife had rejected me because most of my problems are mental and psychological, as is the case with most of us. We hide our hurts. Others have them rather thrust into the limelight, like the woman caught in adultery. Yet our Lord called her to repent, and go and live a life of holiness, he did not punish her, nor show himself shocked or appalled by her sin. Indeed we can imagine the greater repulsion our Lord must have felt looking into the hearts of the eager crowd of men ready to stone her to death.
So what am I saying? There should be no rejection of anyone. In the case of someone with an infection then marriage must be entered into with maturity, being fully aware of the consequences. And the 'healthy' partner must never allow him or herself to use that infection as a means of abuse or condemnation. This is not always easy. And this is why it is wise to take a great deal of advice before entering into any relationship in such a case. Better to say early on, 'I have warm feelings towards you but I cannot cope with this', than to pretend everything is alright and be eaten up inside until a prospective marriage is destroyed.
In terms of requiring a virgin partner. It is always best if both partners are virgin. But it is often the case that one or more partners are in any case only technically virgins, or have spent many years indulging the sin of lust. This being so, it is necessary to be mature about such things. I mean mature as a Christian. Our priests receive us knowing many of our sins, our Lord receives us knowing entirely all our sins. It seems difficult to say that though we should be received in the Church whatever our sins, we should not accept a partner whom we have feelings for, and who seems to be a suitable partner for God's service, if they have sinned in a couple of ways. Yet if a person cannot accept such then it would be foolish indeed to pretend everything was OK.
Comments
can someone who has sinned (fornicated) get married? or must they live without marriage as a punishment?
they can. But of course repentance and confession and many other things need to take place.
The life which God gives us is not a matter of punishment. We are chastened and pruned so that we might become holy and perfect, but God does not punish us out of anger. He always has in mind our salvation and what is necessary for it. As we pray in the Agpeya many times each day..
'God does not wish the death of the sinner, but rather that he repents and lives'.
Many of the great saints were great sinners. This does not excuse their sin, but it shows us that the grace of God can work wonders in any life which is wholly committed to Him. It is possible for you to become a saint. Your life is not ended because you have sinned. Repentance is not a feeling of sorrow - feelings usually let us down - it is a deliberate act of turning your life towards God, even if he never grants you any feelings of his presence.
May God have mercy upon you, as he always has, and be assured that many here are praying for you.
Do not think about the future, but think about today. How will you live today in humility, repentance, commitment to God? God will take care of the rest. 'Seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you'.
It is never too late with God. Even the thief on the cross found life with Christ in his last moments. And God willing you have a long life ahead of you to serve God. Let the thoughts of your sinfulness spur you on to a life of holiness. Do not let them cause you to despair. All of us are sinners, and none of us deserve anything other than an eternity separated from God. But he has given us his life, though we do not deserve it , and he has given you his life, though you have allowed it to become choked by weeds. Now clear those weeds away and let the seed of the Word flourish in you.
God bless you
Father Peter
I mean, yes, on the one hand - God does forgive, however, in a Coptic Community, losing one's virginity before marriage is quite a serious affair.
Ashamed - is that what you mean?
but the life of repentance is today, it needs patience... so as I always say... focus on God first... and through the relationship with God, you will become successful in school or work, and due to your success that you did through God, God will then give you a good partner with your education level, and he/she will be the best of the best!
just as God is patient with you, you also be patient with Him!
akhadna el baraka... neshkor Allah!
So does that mean that someone who has sinned (before being married) can never marry in the first place?
I just want to know from God's perspective ... not a partners one.
What I mean is, that God commanded that if someone cheats on their wife/husband, and they divorce, then they are not allowed to marry again.
So does that mean that someone who has sinned (before being married) can never marry in the first place?
I just want to know from God's perspective ... not a partners one.
first and formost, as Fr Peter said and SuperMAN(BAM) have said, worry about God first. worry about what's in heaven for you. the door of repentance is always open.
now if there is divorce in this case, it all depends on how church-based that divorce is and how the same rule gave you the right to marry again.
The Christian life is one of love and forgiveness with the aim of forming the image of Christ in each soul. It is not a matter of punishment and laws. We are freed from the Law, or rather we submit to the law of love in Christ. When there is discipline this is not punishment but is for our salvation, it is to bring us to repentance, not to burden us with an unbearable weight of guilt.
If we had sinned in breaking the fast we would not expect the Church to teach us never to eat again as a punishment. If we had spoken out of anger we would not expect the Church to teach us never to speak again. We are required to put the properties of our body and soul to RIGHT use, not to abandon them. So if we break the fast it shows usually that we are not able to control our appetites and we will be encouraged to keep the fast in future so that our desire for food and other things is balanced. If we have spoken in anger we might be counselled to keep silent at certain times, when someone is starting to irritate us so that we can learn to manage and balance our speech.
Likewise even with sexual sins. The aim of the Christian spiritual tradition is to teach us right use instead of wrong use, not to abandon the use of aspects of our humanity altogether. You have sinned in a sexual way, but it is clear even from Tasbeha.org that you are not alone. And we know that even when we look twice at an attractive man or woman we fall into sexual sin. Sexual sin begins not with a physical action but a mental assent to temptation. If the punishment for falling into sexual sin was never to be able to marry then few people would be allowed to marry.
And in terms of marriage, we might ask, what is the better foundation? For one partner to have committed a sexual sin in the past, and repented completely, and received absolution; or for a partner to be selfish and often angry, not even considering that they need to repent of anything?
Let it be clear, I am not excusing sexual sin at all. It is deadly. But it is forgiven by God, and many of those who are most bound by sexual sin do not commit fornication, or even sin in an outward way. But the lust of the eyes is also deadly and is also a sexual sin.
It is very good and healthy that you have a clear sense of what you have been rescued from, and that completely undeserved, God has given you another chance. But do not allow your sense of repentance to become a burden of anxiety about the future. If God has forgiven you through the medium of your priest then you are forgiven. You have made a new start, as we all have to make a new start each day - or even more often. Ours sins are serious, very serious. But God's forgiveness is greater. We need to learn to live in the balance of trusting in God's forgiveness - believing that like the Prodigal Son our Father has clothed us in a new robe that we didn't deserve - but also being mindful of the pigsty we sunk into because of our sin so that the thought of how close we came to utter ruin preserves us from taking God's grace for granted.
As has been said on the thread before, don't worry about the future. God has plans for you, plans to bless you and bring joy to you. Serve God today and let Him bear the burden of thoughts about the future. If our life is hid with Christ in God then the future, even when we face trials of many kinds, is an adventure with God, something to be looked forward to, not something to be feared.
God bless you
Father Peter
What I mean is, that God commanded that if someone cheats on their wife/husband, and they divorce, then they are not allowed to marry again.
So does that mean that someone who has sinned (before being married) can never marry in the first place?
I just want to know from God's perspective ... not a partners one.
Thanks for clarifying that.
Actually - I think Fr. Peter's response sums up your problem then!?
Are you concerned thought that God will punish you for your past sins? I would tend to agree with Fr. Peter still (if that is the case) - that you should see any punishment as chastisement - God's punishment for us is to correct us, not to harm us more.
i would like to add no-one has a 'right' to a virgin husband or wife.
if u think u do have this 'right', just think how many sins God forgave you and forgive as you would like to be forgiven.
In Christ
Theophilus
So then actually.. God forgives and forgets those who truly repent, and they can then serve Him in His Church as He wills.
By the way, on the actual topic, I do think the potential spouse has a right to know--there should be no secrets. Then it's all up to whether they're comfortable with that and are willing to look past it. I would disagree with mabsoota in that no one has a right to a virgin spouse--for some that's very important, esp. in the case of STDs, etc. I think it depends on the person. I don't believe it's wrong if someone isn't comfortable having a non-virgin spouse. So ya you can marry, but be open and you'll find pepople willing to look past your sins-- God will take care, don't worry.
Saint Moses was not ordained right away, and Saint Augustine also took A LONG time, until he overcame the addiction to his lust, as mentioned in his confessions!
so if 3abas just sinned, he would not become a priest or anything, until his father of confession sees improvement and true repentance!
for the main topic, many virgins are not suitable to be wives/husbands, and believe me there ARE MANY non virgins that repented, and are beyond better than any virgin!
really not many can say anything about this topic, sometimes God gives you a big cross, if you are willing to accept it and know you can cherish it, then accept it... otherwise don't!
akhadna el baraka, neshkor Allah!
i totally agree with father peter.
i would like to add no-one has a 'right' to a virgin husband or wife.
if u think u do have this 'right', just think how many sins God forgave you and forgive as you would like to be forgiven.
There are a few points here I must stress:
a) Repentance and confession - God makes the prostitute into a virgin - so as a spouse, if you marry someone who has fornicated and repented, then you are still marrying a virgin.
b) Concerning USER00's point that - about STD's etc - I would also agree. Sin has with it consequences, and that is both earthly and spiritual. If you have contracted an STD/AIDS/etc from sexual promiscuity, then I think you should be open about it with your future spouse - and if they do not marry you because of this, then that's fine. That's not wrong.
c) I would agree still with mabsoota 100% that no one has the right to reject another person because they are "not virgins" if they have repented and confessed their sins.
St Peter said "What God has made clean, do not call common". (God said that to him actually) - would this verse from the Bible apply in this case? That whatever God has cleansed and purified and justified, we should not consider it unclean.
I'm still sad about point B. Its a serious reality and the product of sin. Should you marry or not someone with STD's? I don't know - but Im interested in Fr. Peter's response.
There were many things wrong with my Evangelical congregation, but at least I can be pleased that they continued to be treated 'normally', and took communion in the manner we practiced, although they would usually receive the cup last. I lived my life with them for years and years and never really thought of being infected or ever that they should be 'shunned' in some way.
Both of them eventually married. They married two sisters, both of whom were nurses and so knew the facts about HIV/AIDS rather than the myths. They have both gone on to have families using various IVF treatments (this thread is not about IVF).
So I see no reason why a person should not choose to marry someone whom they loved even if they had an illness of some sort. I have seen it happen among my own friends.
Nevertheless these were both infected through a medical treatment that went wrong. It would require even more soul-searching if a prospective partner had become infertile through an abortion or STD infection, or if they had had a great many partners in a promsicuous lifestyle. To a great degree it is a question of whether the non-infected, non-'sinful' partner (and none of us are sinful at all), is mature enough to forgive this persons past as God has done. If one partner thinks he or she is holy and the other is a sinner then the marriage is likely to fail in any case. If he or she considers themselves a greater sinner because their sin has all been conducted in secret, then there is the possibility of a fruitful marriage.
Would we absolutely avoid marrying someone who had been an alcoholic? Or who had contracted bronchial problems through smoking? Or had been wheel-chair bound by crashing their car after smoking pot? Are we so perfect that we must avoid at all costs anyone who is slightly damaged?
In my experience we are all damaged goods in one way or another. I see that my wife, my mother and father, all bear traces of the trials that their own families have been through, and this also has affected me in some way. I am not a perfectly balanced, perfectly holy person. I am damaged and in need of healing. What if my wife had rejected me because most of my problems are mental and psychological, as is the case with most of us. We hide our hurts. Others have them rather thrust into the limelight, like the woman caught in adultery. Yet our Lord called her to repent, and go and live a life of holiness, he did not punish her, nor show himself shocked or appalled by her sin. Indeed we can imagine the greater repulsion our Lord must have felt looking into the hearts of the eager crowd of men ready to stone her to death.
So what am I saying? There should be no rejection of anyone. In the case of someone with an infection then marriage must be entered into with maturity, being fully aware of the consequences. And the 'healthy' partner must never allow him or herself to use that infection as a means of abuse or condemnation. This is not always easy. And this is why it is wise to take a great deal of advice before entering into any relationship in such a case. Better to say early on, 'I have warm feelings towards you but I cannot cope with this', than to pretend everything is alright and be eaten up inside until a prospective marriage is destroyed.
In terms of requiring a virgin partner. It is always best if both partners are virgin. But it is often the case that one or more partners are in any case only technically virgins, or have spent many years indulging the sin of lust. This being so, it is necessary to be mature about such things. I mean mature as a Christian. Our priests receive us knowing many of our sins, our Lord receives us knowing entirely all our sins. It seems difficult to say that though we should be received in the Church whatever our sins, we should not accept a partner whom we have feelings for, and who seems to be a suitable partner for God's service, if they have sinned in a couple of ways. Yet if a person cannot accept such then it would be foolish indeed to pretend everything was OK.
Father Peter