I believe there are several issues at hand here which have been brought into light and should be addressed. That being said, there are also some topics that have been brought up whose answer may be troublesome to some, and so I wish to say that I do not speak against any one single person, but rather wish to share what it is that I have learned. Let us perhaps look at sex within the confines of marriage as any other good, holy thing that God has given us. Allow us to examine, for the sake of argument, food. Food was given to us by God to sustain us, but eating food must be done in moderation, even when one is not fasting. Things have an acceptable amount of moderation to them. It is in this moderation of "acceptable" things that we then learn what it is that is truly acceptable... for the Lord asks of us that we not submit to the lusts of the world, those things which have the potential from taking us away from Him. This distancing may be unbeknownst to us, as we believe ourselves to be doing something that glorifies God and His Mysteries, while in fact, we distance ourselves from Him in honoring our own pleasures. It is the Orthodox Christian's call to discover what is good and pure as is presented to us by the Orthodox Church as a whole, guided by the Holy Spirit throughout the ages, and to apply this to his or her life. We must all examine ourselves to see what the source of our actions are. Perhaps it is the idea, as I said in a previous post on a separate topic, that we wish to conform Orthodoxy to our own practices, lessening God in our actions so as to adhere to our personal practices.
As to the recommendation of time before taking the Holy and Blessed Mysteries, Fr. Peter has indeed spoken correctly, and I thank him for all of his generous participation on these forums. The "rule of 9 hours" was made as a concession to us in our weakness on days in which the liturgy will not be celebrated early in the day, such as the Feast of the Resurrection. That being said, I believe that we should be looking towards what is correct and ideally presented to us, and not simply what the vast majority of Orthodox Christians practice. Simply because the masses practice a certain thing does not make it right. Let us look towards our fathers, the monks, towards guidance on this issue. The Raising of the Incense begins the timeline, if you will, for the preparation of the administration of the Holy Mysteries to the congregation. From this point, our focus should entirely be on God and not on pleasing ourselves. It is then that we are supposed to abstain.
Now, perhaps for the troublesome portion of the discussion. Simply because a priest tells you something to be right or not right does not make it as such. Perhaps your father of confession, QT, has recommended this way of life for you and your wife alone, and not simply for the vast congregation. I, of course, can not speak this with certainty, as I do not know your father of confession nor the words that he has spoken to the congregation. There was recently a topic about the deification of the clergy... if we simply take the words of the clergy to be true without question on topics that are subject to questioning, we follow our faith blindly, and though we are called to be obedient, the Lord gave us a mind of our own to function in the world and to praise His name. If, then, we discover that what we are being told is not in congruence with the rest of the Orthodox Church, we have a decision to make. Is my religion that of my priest, so to speak, or is it of the Orthodox Church? Allow me to provide an example that is not directed towards your priest, QT, by which I mean no disrespect whatsoever. Arius had his congregation, but if the congregation followed their priest, they would be led into heresy. They, then, were subjected to a choice in which they had to choose between him and the Church. This, of course, is an extreme example, but it is in this spirit that I wish to portray that, though the clergy is chosen by God to lead our way in the path towards ever-lasting life, it does not mean that they are without fault nor mistake. They are not "infallible," so to speak. If we, then, are exposed to the truth and refuse it because we wish to cloak ourselves in the comfort of simply having been told, as a recommendation from a priest, that a particular act is correct or incorrect is not befitting of us as Christians, made in the image and likeness of God, with a mind designed to approach Him by seeking out the truth as He has presented to us in the Bible, in the Church, through the Fathers of the Church, and through the clergy who adhere to this strictly. Am I thus saying that there are priests acting against what has been recommended by the Church? Is this done by their own lack of knowledge on the topic from a Spirit of Orthodoxy, or is it done in direct defiance of what has been established by the Church? This, I cannot say; only God can judge (as a sidenote, I don't see any judgment on Fr. Peter's part towards you, QT.)
May we all approach our lives in a manner which agrees with the Church and the mindset and Spirit of the Church, so as to lead our lives towards God, who created us and has given us the opportunity of achieving our likeness of Him by constantly learning about Him and experiencing Him through the freeing actions that have been given us, breaking the bonds of the world.
A few quotations from the canons of St Timothy, Patriarch of Alexandria are useful here..
St. Timothy of Alexandria in his fifth canon: "If a woman has coition with her husband during the night, or, as likely as not, a man with his wife, and a church meeting ensues, ought they to partake of communion, or not?" "They ought not to do so, because the Apostle says emphatically: "Deprive yourselves not of each other, unless it be for a time of agreement, that ye may give yourselves leisure to pray; and then come ye again together, to avoid having Satan tempt you on account of your failure to mingle."
and
St. Timothy of Alexandria in his thirteenth canon: "What days of the week ought to be assigned to those who are conjoined in marriage for them to abstain from communion with each other? And on what days ought they to have it?" "Though I have already answered this question, I will answer now once more. The Apostles says "Deprive ye not yourselves of each other, unless it be for a time by agreement, in order that ye may have leisure to pray"..."But one must necessarily abstain on Saturday and Sunday, on account of the fact that on these days the spiritual sacrifice is being offered to the Lord."
These seem authoritative, or certainly very pertinent, and are from our own Alexandrian tradition.
[quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=7912.msg102625#msg102625 date=1241630012] SilentOne, yes that is entirely the basis for my own recommendation on the matter. The Liturgy begins with Vespers on Saturday evening, it does not begin on Sunday morning.
Father Peter
For goodness sake, this is the IDEAL situation. Because the vespers is actually PART of the liturgy.
But we are NOT in an ideal world. I am from a CoC that DOES NOT HAVE SATURDAY VESPERS. Abouna does not do them!! Period. Why? He is too busy. So, what can a couple do?
If there were vespers, then yes, THE COUPLE should BOTH attend the vespers! If there aren't any vespers, then they can at least pray together, and if it SO HAPPENS that they ended up having sex, then so what? Big deal... its OK!! GOD BLESSES IT ANYWAY!!!
But what I am saying is that if you DO happen to have sexual relations with your wife, and it is after the vespers (in your own home) - then it is not so bad.
Why not pray the vespers together in your own home, and make love before or after????
[quote author=SilentOne link=topic=7912.msg102624#msg102624 date=1241629845] I will have to jump in and say that most of the priests I have listened to here in North America agree that the night prior to communion should be free of sexual acts. Why? Because the liturgy does not start in the morning after the matins, nor during the matins, but the first moments of the liturgy actually begin during the Vespers the night before.
+PiKhristos aftonf! Christ is risen!+
Dear SilentOne,
I would echo that this is indeed the general sentiment and teaching of all clergy I've heard speak on the subject here in North America. In fact, there are some priests who advise in the same spirit, to abstain from any activities that take away from Liturgical spirit. For example, some would say, going out to the movies, playing video games etc... are not appropriate from Vespers on. They are not intrinsically wrong, but it is simply not the right time for them.
I would like to apologise to QT for having spoken about his personal circumstances without need or knowledge.
It is not always clear to me how to answer various people, not least because I am still learning how to be a priest, and when I answer any of you inappropriately, here or elsewhere, I ask for your patience with me.
Thanks for your post, but I stress the message I gave SilentOne:
Your post is the ideal situation. That couples refrain from sex. But what if there are NO vespers at Church?
What if you pray together with your wife and get carried away and find yourselves making love? What is SO bad about that!?
My FoC didnt really give me a recommendation to suit my personal life... but he insisted that we must fast before taking the Communion, and have confessed.
Having said that, one thing I would stress is the importance of confession over celebacy between married couples. I would prefer to spend the vespers in Confession with my FoC. Period.
I used to enjoy the vespers as praises and beautiful hymns, but no one does it anymore - and I'm sure if you are married, you need to organise your time better than have the Church tell you what u can/cannot do before communion with your wife.
QT, yes we live in an unideal world, yet it does not mean that we too should be unideal. Remember what we were told: we are in the world, not of it. If one's church does not have vesper services, instead of saying "oh well no prayer, I can do whatever I want now," one should optimally have the thought that "though there is no prayer in the church tonight, I will consecrate my night with prayer," and devote his/her entire night to prayer, vigil, and preparation for the service of the next day, preferably with their spouse, for prayer with the spouse is just as sacred if not more as sexual relations is with them.
[quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=7912.msg102630#msg102630 date=1241631006] I would like to apologise to QT for having spoken about his personal circumstances without need or knowledge.
It is not always clear to me how to answer various people, not least because I am still learning how to be a priest, and when I answer any of you inappropriately, here or elsewhere, I ask for your patience with me.
God bless
Father Peter
I actually agreed with nearly everything you said.
I only said I cringe when I felt your opinion seemed to demote marriage and lessen its holiness. If your reasoning is that a couple should abstain from sex during the vespers because the vespers is part of the mass - then YES.. this is great. Its a great sign of respect - and this was NOT AT ALL clear from your original post.
However, I still stress that in NORMAL life.. where people are not priests, nor monks, nor live in an area surrounded by churches, where they have NO time, and nO vespers even to go to, it would seem a bit cruel to impose on them such rules of not having sexual relations if it was the DAY before the communion.
I would NOT hesitate to refrain from communion if I didnt confess the day before, but to go to the extent of not having communion because I had sexual relations the DAY before (when the Church itself was shut during vespers) - i find this a bit far fetched.
[quote author=SilentOne link=topic=7912.msg102632#msg102632 date=1241631312] QT, yes we live in an unideal world, yet it does not mean that we too should be unideal. Remember what we were told: we are in the world, not of it. If one's church does not have vesper services, instead of saying "oh well no prayer, I can do whatever I want now," one should optimally have the thought that "though there is no prayer in the church tonight, I will consecrate my night with prayer," and devote his/her entire night to prayer, vigil, and preparation for the service of the next day, preferably with their spouse, for prayer with the spouse is just as sacred if not more as sexual relations is with them.
Yes, I agree with that.
We should strive to be ideal. In fact, I think there are rewards in striving for such ideality. Sure! Its all a sign of respect. However, IF you do not have a CHurch that does Vespers, and you pray the tasbeha with your wife and kid at home, and you sing and praise God all afternoon, why ON EARTH should you feel bad for having sex with your wife if you ended up having sex with her MORE than 12 hours before communion?????
You may find it far fetched, but it does seem from other's posts that it is the tradition of the wider Coptic Orthodox Church, and I quoted a couple of historic canons from the Alexandrian tradition, and it is the tradition of most Eastern Orthodox Churches.
Surely sexual relations are not a substitute for prayer if there is no Church nearby? What is to prevent us spending the evening in prayerful preparation? This does not diminish the value of sexual relations, and I never said anything even suggesting that, but it does put things in order.
QT, I understand the situation in which you are presented. Indeed, there are places in the world where Orthodox Christians are only able to partake of the Divine Mysteries once a month, and I'm sure that there are other places in which the length of time between participation in liturgical services is even longer than that. Do we then assume that they are under a different standard than the rest of us? That they are only to abstain from certain practices, food or otherwise, when they know that they will be partaking of the Divine Mysteries that week? No. We are One Church, united in One Body of Christ, and thus operate under one standard. I, as a member of the Church, must adhere to this, not out of legalistic terms, but because I desire to be a part of the gift that the Lord has left us with, to be guided by the Holy Spirit which guides the entire Church. My Orthodoxy should not be a weighing of the ideal against the realistic; it should be an application of the ideal. Again, this is not in a legalistic sense... the Church's goal is not to restrict you from doing some things and open the door for you to do others. The Church is here to open your heart and mind to our Lord, and provide us a path to Him, a path which He Himself left us. If we begin to think of it as a means of confining our own practices, than we are not seeing the Church for what it is. These recommendations are made in order to free us, not to chain us down by rules and regulations, though they appear as such.
To each practice, it's own time. Vespers is a time for communal prayer with the congregation in preparation for the liturgy. Confession has its own time. If you wish to dedicate the time after vespers to confession, then may God be with you, it is a beautiful thing to do indeed. It is an act that not only cleanses us, but also prepares us for the liturgy for the following day. This is still in line with the idea of preparation that we have been speaking about.
Yes, you may not be in the ideal situation, but the canon that Fr. Peter cited do not distinguish between those who have the benefit of being in an ideal situation and those who don't. They are statements which we all must apply in our lives, again, not because it is a rule or law that I constrict myself with, but because they are recommendations which free me from the bonds of the world and allow me to experience God firsthand more readily.
[quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=7912.msg102635#msg102635 date=1241631728] You may find it far fetched, but it does seem from other's posts that it is the tradition of the wider Coptic Orthodox Church, and I quoted a couple of historic canons from the Alexandrian tradition, and it is the tradition of most Eastern Orthodox Churches.
Actually those were the quotes I was looking for. As far as I understand they say what I was saying: To not deprive one another, but to be in agreement!
So I was saying that if you are NOT in agreement.. its NOT so bad.
Surely sexual relations are not a substitute for prayer if there is no Church nearby?
NEVER. Of course not! hahahahah
No.. its not a substitute. But I am telling you that sex between a couple can be a good thing: If we are meant to be at peace with one another, then surely a couple who just made love the night before are DEFINATELY at peace??
OK.. I'm being flippant, but do you see my point of view?
What is to prevent us spending the evening in prayerful preparation? [/quote
Great.. and I agree. and yet what is so wrong about spending the evening in prayer and reading the Bible and making love afterwards?
This does not diminish the value of sexual relations, and I never said anything even suggesting that, but it does put things in order.
Father Peter
Im really lost as to what you mean in this last sentence.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7912.msg102634#msg102634 date=1241631690] why ON EARTH should you feel bad for having sex with your wife if you ended up having sex with her MORE than 12 hours before communion?????
Is sex not holy also???
Sex is holy as many have said before, but everything has its time. Women and men are separated in church during the service, because it is understood that that time is for prayer and contemplation alone with God. The same should be the night right before communion. The couple doesn't have to split up the night before and pray alone, but rather they should pray together in fact. Sexual activities should occur before the vespers/house prayers and the couple and really everyone should end their nights with prayer and nothing else prior to the service.
[quote author=childoforthodoxy link=topic=7912.msg102636#msg102636 date=1241631761] QT, I understand the situation in which you are presented. Indeed, there are places in the world where Orthodox Christians are only able to partake of the Divine Mysteries once a month, and I'm sure that there are other places in which the length of time between participation in liturgical services is even longer than that. Do we then assume that they are under a different standard than the rest of us? That they are only to abstain from certain practices, food or otherwise, when they know that they will be partaking of the Divine Mysteries that week? No. We are One Church, united in One Body of Christ, and thus operate under one standard. I, as a member of the Church, must adhere to this, not out of legalistic terms, but because I desire to be a part of the gift that the Lord has left us with, to be guided by the Holy Spirit which guides the entire Church. My Orthodoxy should not be a weighing of the ideal against the realistic; it should be an application of the ideal. Again, this is not in a legalistic sense... the Church's goal is not to restrict you from doing some things and open the door for you to do others. The Church is here to open your heart and mind to our Lord, and provide us a path to Him, a path which He Himself left us. If we begin to think of it as a means of confining our own practices, than we are not seeing the Church for what it is. These recommendations are made in order to free us, not to chain us down by rules and regulations, though they appear as such.
To each practice, it's own time. Vespers is a time for communal prayer with the congregation in preparation for the liturgy. Confession has its own time. If you wish to dedicate the time after vespers to confession, then may God be with you, it is a beautiful thing to do indeed. It is an act that not only cleanses us, but also prepares us for the liturgy for the following day. This is still in line with the idea of preparation that we have been speaking about.
Yes, you may not be in the ideal situation, but the canon that Fr. Peter cited do not distinguish between those who have the benefit of being in an ideal situation and those who don't. They are statements which we all must apply in our lives, again, not because it is a rule or law that I constrict myself with, but because they are recommendations which free me from the bonds of the world and allow me to experience God firsthand more readily.
childoforthodoxy
ChildofOrthodoxy,
Everyone is at a certain spiritual level. I am at a level where I cannot have communion UNLESS I confess beforehand, NO MATTER how much my FoC insists that I should have communion and confess later, I still refuse; and some people are at the level where they won't make love to their wives because it is saturday afternoon and they are preparing for the vespers.
Although we are ONE Church, we are not married to the same people!! U AGREE??
So, you cannot suggest us to be ideal to the extent where something so PERSONAL that is so obvious to a certain couple may or may not be obvious to another couple.
I agree that everyone is at a different spiritual level. The fact that confess that often is a great and blessed thing! I think it is still important for you to partake of the Divine Mysteries if your priest recommends it if you have not confessed the day before. The Church is a hospital, housing the sick people of the world who wish to get well. The Eucharist is a medicine that is administered. Yes, I have to be pure to receive Holy Communion, but my refusal to take it is much like a refusal to take medicine. It is meant for your benefit. The idea that "some people are at the level where they won't make love to their wives because it is saturday afternoon and they are preparing for the vespers" is not something that I agree with on the basis that it has been clearly instructed to us what it is that we should do. If you, as an Orthodox Christian, have received the recommendation by the Church on what to do and refuse to do it, this is to your own downfall. Yes, we all fall into shortcomings and are unable to perform things, but we struggle as such to improve on ourselves so that, one day, we may be able to adhere to the recommendation in fullness of heart, as an expression of our desire to be one with the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit.
I understand that some things may not be "obvious" to some, but we all begin this way. We are lacking in knowledge in a great deal of things because mankind has separated themselves from God. It is our duty, then, to seek after the knowledge of what is right and good, and when faced with what may be a correction to the way that we have been practicing our lifestyle up to this point, it then becomes our immediate choice to choose whether or not we will deny this recommendation and be separated from the practices of the Church, or embrace them and be united with one another, in the One, Holy, Katholik and Apostolic Church, as we cite in the Creed.
I agree that everyone is at a different spiritual level. The fact that confess that often is a great and blessed thing! I think it is still important for you to partake of the Divine Mysteries if your priest recommends it if you have not confessed the day before. The Church is a hospital, housing the sick people of the world who wish to get well. The Eucharist is a medicine that is administered. Yes, I have to be pure to receive Holy Communion, but my refusal to take it is much like a refusal to take medicine. It is meant for your benefit. The idea that "some people are at the level where they won't make love to their wives because it is saturday afternoon and they are preparing for the vespers" is not something that I agree with on the basis that it has been clearly instructed to us what it is that we should do. If you, as an Orthodox Christian, have received the recommendation by the Church on what to do and refuse to do it, this is to your own downfall. Yes, we all fall into shortcomings and are unable to perform things, but we struggle as such to improve on ourselves so that, one day, we may be able to adhere to the recommendation in fullness of heart, as an expression of our desire to be one with the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit.
I understand that some things may not be "obvious" to some, but we all begin this way. We are lacking in knowledge in a great deal of things because mankind has separated themselves from God. It is our duty, then, to seek after the knowledge of what is right and good, and when faced with what may be a correction to the way that we have been practicing our lifestyle up to this point, it then becomes our immediate choice to choose whether or not we will deny this recommendation and be separated from the practices of the Church, or embrace them and be united with one another, in the One, Holy, Katholik and Apostolic Church, as we cite in the Creed.
childoforthodoxy
OK, but do you also agree that we didnt marry the same people? And if we did - that would be a problem. Do you agree with that?
I'd also add that we are all of us failing in some regard to live to the utmost the Orthodox Christian spiritual life, and in most aspects of our spirituality we could make better use of those tools and gifts which are given to us. So, we should not imagine that we must suddenly live like a Desert monk, rather we do need the counsel of our FOCs so that we can be advised where to make an improvement first, and then what else to improve, and so on, much like a coach of an Olympic team. Otherwise, as many Fathers state, we will try to do everything all at once and in our own strength and will fail and be liable to despair, or will succeed and be liable to pride.
Small attainable improvements in a wide range of spiritual practices that become good habits are best.
I am in full agreement with you. Forgive me for not including it in these recent posts. In my references to the Church, I had hoped that the open and honest communication with one's father of confession was implicit, but I should have done a better job at making this more apparent.
QT,
Of course, we are not all married to the same people, but I do not see how that is applicable to the current topic.
QT, as an addendum to that, I would like to say that while we are not all married to the same husbands and wives, the One and same Christ is in the midst of each marriage, which I'm sure you will readily acknowledge.
[quote author=childoforthodoxy link=topic=7912.msg102643#msg102643 date=1241634211] Of course, we are not all married to the same people, but I do not see how that is applicable to the current topic.
I just wanted to be sure you agreed that people's lives are different.
People's lives are indeed all different, and that is why the Church should be helping each of us to uniquely experience our common spiritual life and tradition.
But it is the same spiritual life and tradition which we are all called, invited even, to uniquely participate in.
The role of the FOC, and the written instruction of our Fathers, helps us to uniquely be moulded by this spiritual tradition, concentrating on this aspect first, then another, then a third and so on. QT is right to stress the personal nature of this moulding, but there is also a commonalty, since there is one tradition into which we are growing.
We may not start out at the same place, or take the same route, but we should be heading to the same destination.
[quote author=childoforthodoxy link=topic=7912.msg102644#msg102644 date=1241634414] QT, as an addendum to that, I would like to say that while we are not all married to the same husbands and wives, the One and same Christ is in the midst of each marriage, which I'm sure you will readily acknowledge.
It wouldnt be a marriage if Christ wasn't in the midst of a couple. Would it?
Listen, I really don't think you must be married. If you are, your wife is ONE lucky person! You seem like a brilliant Orthodox Christian. However, what I suggest is that you try marriage and come back and tell us how you liked it.
I was the same as you. I hated the tasbeha in English. I'd only do it in Coptic. I didnt understand people who actually wanted to do it in English. But now I am tired of singing in a language I don't think in, I really need to do some of it in English otherwise I'd be lost. So, I think when you get married, you'll see all the problems married people face... and the best thing I can tell u is this:
My home is a Church. We have a chapel in our home. We have an Iconostasis in that chapel. You must take your shoes off to go in. The best thing u can do is to make your home like a Church as it is better to do this than to ruin your home trying to go to a church that is always closed, and where they have no vespers. Im not suggesting that u build a chapel in your home and NOT go to Church. I'm saying that you CANNOT depend on a physical church to exist and be next to you for you to grow spiritually. So long as Christ is priority in your lives - it really is more important than anything, and you must ensure that if Christ is #1 in your lives, then you are obliged to put your spouse 1st, and hence that leads us back to square 1:
If your spouse is NOT in agreement to abstain from sex SATURDAY NIGHT, then I do believe it would be OK to have sexual relations with your spouse so they are not deprived because of your ideals in trying to be the World Coptic Orthodox Champion 2009.
Sorry, I really don't know how to put it - but we are not in a competition. Although we are ONE church, and One body, we are all different members, and each member of that body has different needs.
I'm not saying married life is bad... on the contrary. But I'm saying that if you have ideals in life, then you will find yourself stuck as not only is marriage full of compromises, but men and women's biological cycles are different. I mean, as a man, you can be independent and do as you want. But when you are married to a woman, you cannot. LOL
I mean, you CAN do as you wish, but, just together.. and the problem is this "togetherness". Because, when you are alone with a beautiful woman, hormones just go wild, and frankly, you end up doing stuff that you didn't plan on...
Yes, of course. And I am sure that none of us here are judging any other in terms of actual behaviour - which is as you say, not always as we plan.
But we could say the same thing about planning to fast, and then the smell of the frying bacon and well, you end up eating stuff you didn't plan on.
I guess that my concern as a priest is not to suggest that everyone is following the entire spiritual tradition without fail, and even less to suggest that I am doing anything more than a mediocre job, but that the goal and the objectives are clear. Where we are at, in our own lives, is something else. Hopefully we are moving towards that goal and not away from it. But the objective is clear, not in a legal sense, but in the sense of a possibility that is held out to all.
As a priest I do not feel that I should have marital relations the day before celebrating the Liturgy, and I recommend this to others because it is the wider teaching of the Church. This does not mean I consider it an absolute requirement since the salvation of our souls is not a legal matter of following particular canons, but neither is it simply a matter of personal opinion. It is certainly a goal that it is good for all Orthodox to be working towards in their own circumstances, as is appropriate. But I would say the same about fasting. The goal is to fast until the evening, but this is not possible for all in all circumstances, but fasting a little more each year, if there are no health conditions, is a good thing for all to have as a goal.
This means that we do not utterly despair when we do not live according to the teaching of the Church in all respects, but neither should ee make excuses. If we have not yet been given the grace to develop the habit of fasting until evening, or abstaining from marital relations on a Saturday then that is one thing. But if we have been given the grace to fast until 2 or 3 in the afternoon, but choose to eat at noon then that is something else. Likewise if we are seeking to abstain on Saturdays and do not then that is one thing, it is a falling from the rule we are seeking to live by, but if we are not yet seeking to abstain then it is another thing, but it would be wrong to suggest that the goal of abstaining is still not there, waiting for us to find the blessing of embracing it.
None of this is a criticism of anyone except myself.
As a Christian, I do not feel good about marital relations during the Holy Week, before Communion etc. But - for a married couple to follow the spiritual traditions it would mean that the man and wife would have to sleep in separate rooms.
This is a very strange feeling. All of a sudden - what seems to be uniting you (i.e. the Church) is actually, in a way, dividing you because of all these traditions.
To be honest with you, when a man and a woman are in the SAME room together - it is a bit hard to predict what will happen. I mean, everyone has intentions to do the "right thing", but - somehow things don't work out that way. The only feasible way is for each person to sleep in a seperate room, and this is quite cruel actually.
I think that if you DO happen to have marital relations on a saturday then you must learn to forgive yourself, laugh it over, have a beer, and just get over it. ANd if you can't get over it because you had such a good time, well... don't worry! Its Okay! :)
You must just humble yourself before the Lord and say "Lord, I'm horny. Help me".
It would fit in with the canons of St Timothy of Alexandria if it was all of Saturday, but I would imagine that it he means to include at the least the period after Vespers on Saturday evening.
[quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=7912.msg102661#msg102661 date=1241643867] It would fit in with the canons of St Timothy of Alexandria if it was all of Saturday, but I would imagine that it he means to include at the least the period after Vespers on Saturday evening.
Father Peter
So let's say the vespers finished around 8PM, then would it be possible to have sex say from 8:30 until 11PM? Would that be OK? (obviously assuming you either live 30 mins away from Church) or you drive like an idiot... but generally - would that work with Bishop Mattaous's proposition?
Comments
I believe there are several issues at hand here which have been brought into light and should be addressed. That being said, there are also some topics that have been brought up whose answer may be troublesome to some, and so I wish to say that I do not speak against any one single person, but rather wish to share what it is that I have learned. Let us perhaps look at sex within the confines of marriage as any other good, holy thing that God has given us. Allow us to examine, for the sake of argument, food. Food was given to us by God to sustain us, but eating food must be done in moderation, even when one is not fasting. Things have an acceptable amount of moderation to them. It is in this moderation of "acceptable" things that we then learn what it is that is truly acceptable... for the Lord asks of us that we not submit to the lusts of the world, those things which have the potential from taking us away from Him. This distancing may be unbeknownst to us, as we believe ourselves to be doing something that glorifies God and His Mysteries, while in fact, we distance ourselves from Him in honoring our own pleasures. It is the Orthodox Christian's call to discover what is good and pure as is presented to us by the Orthodox Church as a whole, guided by the Holy Spirit throughout the ages, and to apply this to his or her life. We must all examine ourselves to see what the source of our actions are. Perhaps it is the idea, as I said in a previous post on a separate topic, that we wish to conform Orthodoxy to our own practices, lessening God in our actions so as to adhere to our personal practices.
As to the recommendation of time before taking the Holy and Blessed Mysteries, Fr. Peter has indeed spoken correctly, and I thank him for all of his generous participation on these forums. The "rule of 9 hours" was made as a concession to us in our weakness on days in which the liturgy will not be celebrated early in the day, such as the Feast of the Resurrection. That being said, I believe that we should be looking towards what is correct and ideally presented to us, and not simply what the vast majority of Orthodox Christians practice. Simply because the masses practice a certain thing does not make it right. Let us look towards our fathers, the monks, towards guidance on this issue. The Raising of the Incense begins the timeline, if you will, for the preparation of the administration of the Holy Mysteries to the congregation. From this point, our focus should entirely be on God and not on pleasing ourselves. It is then that we are supposed to abstain.
Now, perhaps for the troublesome portion of the discussion. Simply because a priest tells you something to be right or not right does not make it as such. Perhaps your father of confession, QT, has recommended this way of life for you and your wife alone, and not simply for the vast congregation. I, of course, can not speak this with certainty, as I do not know your father of confession nor the words that he has spoken to the congregation. There was recently a topic about the deification of the clergy... if we simply take the words of the clergy to be true without question on topics that are subject to questioning, we follow our faith blindly, and though we are called to be obedient, the Lord gave us a mind of our own to function in the world and to praise His name. If, then, we discover that what we are being told is not in congruence with the rest of the Orthodox Church, we have a decision to make. Is my religion that of my priest, so to speak, or is it of the Orthodox Church? Allow me to provide an example that is not directed towards your priest, QT, by which I mean no disrespect whatsoever. Arius had his congregation, but if the congregation followed their priest, they would be led into heresy. They, then, were subjected to a choice in which they had to choose between him and the Church. This, of course, is an extreme example, but it is in this spirit that I wish to portray that, though the clergy is chosen by God to lead our way in the path towards ever-lasting life, it does not mean that they are without fault nor mistake. They are not "infallible," so to speak. If we, then, are exposed to the truth and refuse it because we wish to cloak ourselves in the comfort of simply having been told, as a recommendation from a priest, that a particular act is correct or incorrect is not befitting of us as Christians, made in the image and likeness of God, with a mind designed to approach Him by seeking out the truth as He has presented to us in the Bible, in the Church, through the Fathers of the Church, and through the clergy who adhere to this strictly. Am I thus saying that there are priests acting against what has been recommended by the Church? Is this done by their own lack of knowledge on the topic from a Spirit of Orthodoxy, or is it done in direct defiance of what has been established by the Church? This, I cannot say; only God can judge (as a sidenote, I don't see any judgment on Fr. Peter's part towards you, QT.)
May we all approach our lives in a manner which agrees with the Church and the mindset and Spirit of the Church, so as to lead our lives towards God, who created us and has given us the opportunity of achieving our likeness of Him by constantly learning about Him and experiencing Him through the freeing actions that have been given us, breaking the bonds of the world.
childoforthodoxy
Father Peter
SilentOne, yes that is entirely the basis for my own recommendation on the matter. The Liturgy begins with Vespers on Saturday evening, it does not begin on Sunday morning.
Father Peter
For goodness sake, this is the IDEAL situation. Because the vespers is actually PART of the liturgy.
But we are NOT in an ideal world. I am from a CoC that DOES NOT HAVE SATURDAY VESPERS. Abouna does not do them!! Period. Why? He is too busy. So, what can a couple do?
If there were vespers, then yes, THE COUPLE should BOTH attend the vespers!
If there aren't any vespers, then they can at least pray together, and if it SO HAPPENS that they ended up having sex, then so what? Big deal... its OK!! GOD BLESSES IT ANYWAY!!!
But what I am saying is that if you DO happen to have sexual relations with your wife, and it is after the vespers (in your own home) - then it is not so bad.
Why not pray the vespers together in your own home, and make love before or after????
I will have to jump in and say that most of the priests I have listened to here in North America agree that the night prior to communion should be free of sexual acts. Why? Because the liturgy does not start in the morning after the matins, nor during the matins, but the first moments of the liturgy actually begin during the Vespers the night before.
+PiKhristos aftonf! Christ is risen!+
Dear SilentOne,
I would echo that this is indeed the general sentiment and teaching of all clergy I've heard speak on the subject here in North America. In fact, there are some priests who advise in the same spirit, to abstain from any activities that take away from Liturgical spirit. For example, some would say, going out to the movies, playing video games etc... are not appropriate from Vespers on. They are not intrinsically wrong, but it is simply not the right time for them.
Pray for me,
fortunatus
It is not always clear to me how to answer various people, not least because I am still learning how to be a priest, and when I answer any of you inappropriately, here or elsewhere, I ask for your patience with me.
God bless
Father Peter
Thanks for your post, but I stress the message I gave SilentOne:
Your post is the ideal situation. That couples refrain from sex. But what if there are NO vespers at Church?
What if you pray together with your wife and get carried away and find yourselves making love? What is SO bad about that!?
My FoC didnt really give me a recommendation to suit my personal life... but he insisted that we must fast before taking the Communion, and have confessed.
Having said that, one thing I would stress is the importance of confession over celebacy between married couples. I would prefer to spend the vespers in Confession with my FoC. Period.
I used to enjoy the vespers as praises and beautiful hymns, but no one does it anymore - and I'm sure if you are married, you need to organise your time better than have the Church tell you what u can/cannot do before communion with your wife.
I would like to apologise to QT for having spoken about his personal circumstances without need or knowledge.
It is not always clear to me how to answer various people, not least because I am still learning how to be a priest, and when I answer any of you inappropriately, here or elsewhere, I ask for your patience with me.
God bless
Father Peter
I actually agreed with nearly everything you said.
I only said I cringe when I felt your opinion seemed to demote marriage and lessen its holiness. If your reasoning is that a couple should abstain from sex during the vespers because the vespers is part of the mass - then YES.. this is great. Its a great sign of respect - and this was NOT AT ALL clear from your original post.
However, I still stress that in NORMAL life.. where people are not priests, nor monks, nor live in an area surrounded by churches, where they have NO time, and nO vespers even to go to, it would seem a bit cruel to impose on them such rules of not having sexual relations if it was the DAY before the communion.
I would NOT hesitate to refrain from communion if I didnt confess the day before, but to go to the extent of not having communion because I had sexual relations the DAY before (when the Church itself was shut during vespers) - i find this a bit far fetched.
QT, yes we live in an unideal world, yet it does not mean that we too should be unideal. Remember what we were told: we are in the world, not of it. If one's church does not have vesper services, instead of saying "oh well no prayer, I can do whatever I want now," one should optimally have the thought that "though there is no prayer in the church tonight, I will consecrate my night with prayer," and devote his/her entire night to prayer, vigil, and preparation for the service of the next day, preferably with their spouse, for prayer with the spouse is just as sacred if not more as sexual relations is with them.
Yes, I agree with that.
We should strive to be ideal. In fact, I think there are rewards in striving for such ideality. Sure! Its all a sign of respect. However, IF you do not have a CHurch that does Vespers, and you pray the tasbeha with your wife and kid at home, and you sing and praise God all afternoon, why ON EARTH should you feel bad for having sex with your wife if you ended up having sex with her MORE than 12 hours before communion?????
Is sex not holy also???
Surely sexual relations are not a substitute for prayer if there is no Church nearby? What is to prevent us spending the evening in prayerful preparation? This does not diminish the value of sexual relations, and I never said anything even suggesting that, but it does put things in order.
Father Peter
To each practice, it's own time. Vespers is a time for communal prayer with the congregation in preparation for the liturgy. Confession has its own time. If you wish to dedicate the time after vespers to confession, then may God be with you, it is a beautiful thing to do indeed. It is an act that not only cleanses us, but also prepares us for the liturgy for the following day. This is still in line with the idea of preparation that we have been speaking about.
Yes, you may not be in the ideal situation, but the canon that Fr. Peter cited do not distinguish between those who have the benefit of being in an ideal situation and those who don't. They are statements which we all must apply in our lives, again, not because it is a rule or law that I constrict myself with, but because they are recommendations which free me from the bonds of the world and allow me to experience God firsthand more readily.
childoforthodoxy
You may find it far fetched, but it does seem from other's posts that it is the tradition of the wider Coptic Orthodox Church, and I quoted a couple of historic canons from the Alexandrian tradition, and it is the tradition of most Eastern Orthodox Churches.
Actually those were the quotes I was looking for. As far as I understand they say what I was saying: To not deprive one another, but to be in agreement!
So I was saying that if you are NOT in agreement.. its NOT so bad. NEVER. Of course not! hahahahah
No.. its not a substitute. But I am telling you that sex between a couple can be a good thing: If we are meant to be at peace with one another, then surely a couple who just made love the night before are DEFINATELY at peace??
OK.. I'm being flippant, but do you see my point of view?
why ON EARTH should you feel bad for having sex with your wife if you ended up having sex with her MORE than 12 hours before communion?????
Is sex not holy also???
Sex is holy as many have said before, but everything has its time. Women and men are separated in church during the service, because it is understood that that time is for prayer and contemplation alone with God. The same should be the night right before communion. The couple doesn't have to split up the night before and pray alone, but rather they should pray together in fact. Sexual activities should occur before the vespers/house prayers and the couple and really everyone should end their nights with prayer and nothing else prior to the service.
QT, I understand the situation in which you are presented. Indeed, there are places in the world where Orthodox Christians are only able to partake of the Divine Mysteries once a month, and I'm sure that there are other places in which the length of time between participation in liturgical services is even longer than that. Do we then assume that they are under a different standard than the rest of us? That they are only to abstain from certain practices, food or otherwise, when they know that they will be partaking of the Divine Mysteries that week? No. We are One Church, united in One Body of Christ, and thus operate under one standard. I, as a member of the Church, must adhere to this, not out of legalistic terms, but because I desire to be a part of the gift that the Lord has left us with, to be guided by the Holy Spirit which guides the entire Church. My Orthodoxy should not be a weighing of the ideal against the realistic; it should be an application of the ideal. Again, this is not in a legalistic sense... the Church's goal is not to restrict you from doing some things and open the door for you to do others. The Church is here to open your heart and mind to our Lord, and provide us a path to Him, a path which He Himself left us. If we begin to think of it as a means of confining our own practices, than we are not seeing the Church for what it is. These recommendations are made in order to free us, not to chain us down by rules and regulations, though they appear as such.
To each practice, it's own time. Vespers is a time for communal prayer with the congregation in preparation for the liturgy. Confession has its own time. If you wish to dedicate the time after vespers to confession, then may God be with you, it is a beautiful thing to do indeed. It is an act that not only cleanses us, but also prepares us for the liturgy for the following day. This is still in line with the idea of preparation that we have been speaking about.
Yes, you may not be in the ideal situation, but the canon that Fr. Peter cited do not distinguish between those who have the benefit of being in an ideal situation and those who don't. They are statements which we all must apply in our lives, again, not because it is a rule or law that I constrict myself with, but because they are recommendations which free me from the bonds of the world and allow me to experience God firsthand more readily.
childoforthodoxy
ChildofOrthodoxy,
Everyone is at a certain spiritual level. I am at a level where I cannot have communion UNLESS I confess beforehand, NO MATTER how much my FoC insists that I should have communion and confess later, I still refuse; and some people are at the level where they won't make love to their wives because it is saturday afternoon and they are preparing for the vespers.
Although we are ONE Church, we are not married to the same people!! U AGREE??
So, you cannot suggest us to be ideal to the extent where something so PERSONAL that is so obvious to a certain couple may or may not be obvious to another couple.
I agree that everyone is at a different spiritual level. The fact that confess that often is a great and blessed thing! I think it is still important for you to partake of the Divine Mysteries if your priest recommends it if you have not confessed the day before. The Church is a hospital, housing the sick people of the world who wish to get well. The Eucharist is a medicine that is administered. Yes, I have to be pure to receive Holy Communion, but my refusal to take it is much like a refusal to take medicine. It is meant for your benefit. The idea that "some people are at the level where they won't make love to their wives because it is saturday afternoon and they are preparing for the vespers" is not something that I agree with on the basis that it has been clearly instructed to us what it is that we should do. If you, as an Orthodox Christian, have received the recommendation by the Church on what to do and refuse to do it, this is to your own downfall. Yes, we all fall into shortcomings and are unable to perform things, but we struggle as such to improve on ourselves so that, one day, we may be able to adhere to the recommendation in fullness of heart, as an expression of our desire to be one with the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit.
I understand that some things may not be "obvious" to some, but we all begin this way. We are lacking in knowledge in a great deal of things because mankind has separated themselves from God. It is our duty, then, to seek after the knowledge of what is right and good, and when faced with what may be a correction to the way that we have been practicing our lifestyle up to this point, it then becomes our immediate choice to choose whether or not we will deny this recommendation and be separated from the practices of the Church, or embrace them and be united with one another, in the One, Holy, Katholik and Apostolic Church, as we cite in the Creed.
childoforthodoxy
QT,
I agree that everyone is at a different spiritual level. The fact that confess that often is a great and blessed thing! I think it is still important for you to partake of the Divine Mysteries if your priest recommends it if you have not confessed the day before. The Church is a hospital, housing the sick people of the world who wish to get well. The Eucharist is a medicine that is administered. Yes, I have to be pure to receive Holy Communion, but my refusal to take it is much like a refusal to take medicine. It is meant for your benefit. The idea that "some people are at the level where they won't make love to their wives because it is saturday afternoon and they are preparing for the vespers" is not something that I agree with on the basis that it has been clearly instructed to us what it is that we should do. If you, as an Orthodox Christian, have received the recommendation by the Church on what to do and refuse to do it, this is to your own downfall. Yes, we all fall into shortcomings and are unable to perform things, but we struggle as such to improve on ourselves so that, one day, we may be able to adhere to the recommendation in fullness of heart, as an expression of our desire to be one with the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit.
I understand that some things may not be "obvious" to some, but we all begin this way. We are lacking in knowledge in a great deal of things because mankind has separated themselves from God. It is our duty, then, to seek after the knowledge of what is right and good, and when faced with what may be a correction to the way that we have been practicing our lifestyle up to this point, it then becomes our immediate choice to choose whether or not we will deny this recommendation and be separated from the practices of the Church, or embrace them and be united with one another, in the One, Holy, Katholik and Apostolic Church, as we cite in the Creed.
childoforthodoxy
OK, but do you also agree that we didnt marry the same people? And if we did - that would be a problem. Do you agree with that?
I'd also add that we are all of us failing in some regard to live to the utmost the Orthodox Christian spiritual life, and in most aspects of our spirituality we could make better use of those tools and gifts which are given to us. So, we should not imagine that we must suddenly live like a Desert monk, rather we do need the counsel of our FOCs so that we can be advised where to make an improvement first, and then what else to improve, and so on, much like a coach of an Olympic team. Otherwise, as many Fathers state, we will try to do everything all at once and in our own strength and will fail and be liable to despair, or will succeed and be liable to pride.
Small attainable improvements in a wide range of spiritual practices that become good habits are best.
Father Peter
I am in full agreement with you. Forgive me for not including it in these recent posts. In my references to the Church, I had hoped that the open and honest communication with one's father of confession was implicit, but I should have done a better job at making this more apparent.
QT,
Of course, we are not all married to the same people, but I do not see how that is applicable to the current topic.
childoforthodoxy
Of course, we are not all married to the same people, but I do not see how that is applicable to the current topic.
I just wanted to be sure you agreed that people's lives are different.
But it is the same spiritual life and tradition which we are all called, invited even, to uniquely participate in.
The role of the FOC, and the written instruction of our Fathers, helps us to uniquely be moulded by this spiritual tradition, concentrating on this aspect first, then another, then a third and so on. QT is right to stress the personal nature of this moulding, but there is also a commonalty, since there is one tradition into which we are growing.
We may not start out at the same place, or take the same route, but we should be heading to the same destination.
Father Peter
QT, as an addendum to that, I would like to say that while we are not all married to the same husbands and wives, the One and same Christ is in the midst of each marriage, which I'm sure you will readily acknowledge.
It wouldnt be a marriage if Christ wasn't in the midst of a couple. Would it?
Listen, I really don't think you must be married. If you are, your wife is ONE lucky person! You seem like a brilliant Orthodox Christian. However, what I suggest is that you try marriage and come back and tell us how you liked it.
I was the same as you. I hated the tasbeha in English. I'd only do it in Coptic. I didnt understand people who actually wanted to do it in English. But now I am tired of singing in a language I don't think in, I really need to do some of it in English otherwise I'd be lost. So, I think when you get married, you'll see all the problems married people face... and the best thing I can tell u is this:
My home is a Church. We have a chapel in our home. We have an Iconostasis in that chapel. You must take your shoes off to go in. The best thing u can do is to make your home like a Church as it is better to do this than to ruin your home trying to go to a church that is always closed, and where they have no vespers. Im not suggesting that u build a chapel in your home and NOT go to Church. I'm saying that you CANNOT depend on a physical church to exist and be next to you for you to grow spiritually. So long as Christ is priority in your lives - it really is more important than anything, and you must ensure that if Christ is #1 in your lives, then you are obliged to put your spouse 1st, and hence that leads us back to square 1:
If your spouse is NOT in agreement to abstain from sex SATURDAY NIGHT, then I do believe it would be OK to have sexual relations with your spouse so they are not deprived because of your ideals in trying to be the World Coptic Orthodox Champion 2009.
Sorry, I really don't know how to put it - but we are not in a competition. Although we are ONE church, and One body, we are all different members, and each member of that body has different needs.
This is just my opinion.
I'm not saying married life is bad... on the contrary. But I'm saying that if you have ideals in life, then you will find yourself stuck as not only is marriage full of compromises, but men and women's biological cycles are different. I mean, as a man, you can be independent and do as you want. But when you are married to a woman, you cannot. LOL
I mean, you CAN do as you wish, but, just together.. and the problem is this "togetherness". Because, when you are alone with a beautiful woman, hormones just go wild, and frankly, you end up doing stuff that you didn't plan on...
GET THE PICTURE!??
But we could say the same thing about planning to fast, and then the smell of the frying bacon and well, you end up eating stuff you didn't plan on.
I guess that my concern as a priest is not to suggest that everyone is following the entire spiritual tradition without fail, and even less to suggest that I am doing anything more than a mediocre job, but that the goal and the objectives are clear. Where we are at, in our own lives, is something else. Hopefully we are moving towards that goal and not away from it. But the objective is clear, not in a legal sense, but in the sense of a possibility that is held out to all.
As a priest I do not feel that I should have marital relations the day before celebrating the Liturgy, and I recommend this to others because it is the wider teaching of the Church. This does not mean I consider it an absolute requirement since the salvation of our souls is not a legal matter of following particular canons, but neither is it simply a matter of personal opinion. It is certainly a goal that it is good for all Orthodox to be working towards in their own circumstances, as is appropriate. But I would say the same about fasting. The goal is to fast until the evening, but this is not possible for all in all circumstances, but fasting a little more each year, if there are no health conditions, is a good thing for all to have as a goal.
This means that we do not utterly despair when we do not live according to the teaching of the Church in all respects, but neither should ee make excuses. If we have not yet been given the grace to develop the habit of fasting until evening, or abstaining from marital relations on a Saturday then that is one thing. But if we have been given the grace to fast until 2 or 3 in the afternoon, but choose to eat at noon then that is something else. Likewise if we are seeking to abstain on Saturdays and do not then that is one thing, it is a falling from the rule we are seeking to live by, but if we are not yet seeking to abstain then it is another thing, but it would be wrong to suggest that the goal of abstaining is still not there, waiting for us to find the blessing of embracing it.
None of this is a criticism of anyone except myself.
Father Peter
As a Christian, I do not feel good about marital relations during the Holy Week, before Communion etc. But - for a married couple to follow the spiritual traditions it would mean that the man and wife would have to sleep in separate rooms.
This is a very strange feeling. All of a sudden - what seems to be uniting you (i.e. the Church) is actually, in a way, dividing you because of all these traditions.
To be honest with you, when a man and a woman are in the SAME room together - it is a bit hard to predict what will happen. I mean, everyone has intentions to do the "right thing", but - somehow things don't work out that way. The only feasible way is for each person to sleep in a seperate room, and this is quite cruel actually.
I think that if you DO happen to have marital relations on a saturday then you must learn to forgive yourself, laugh it over, have a beer, and just get over it. ANd if you can't get over it because you had such a good time, well... don't worry! Its Okay! :)
You must just humble yourself before the Lord and say "Lord, I'm horny. Help me".
Bishop Mettaous in Sacramental Rites in the Coptic Orthodox Church says.. Father Peter
Just another quote about the issue of abstaining.
Bishop Mettaous in Sacramental Rites in the Coptic Orthodox Church says.. Father Peter
When H.G Mettaous says to abstain from sexual relations for the Eve of the liturgy, was he talking about the whole day? I.e. ALL of Saturday?
Father Peter
It would fit in with the canons of St Timothy of Alexandria if it was all of Saturday, but I would imagine that it he means to include at the least the period after Vespers on Saturday evening.
Father Peter
So let's say the vespers finished around 8PM, then would it be possible to have sex say from 8:30 until 11PM? Would that be OK? (obviously assuming you either live 30 mins away from Church) or you drive like an idiot... but generally - would that work with Bishop Mattaous's proposition?