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Women
Hello and Peace to you all,
I have a question that i need help with. Why are women looked down upon in our faith. For example, they can't be deacons even if they aren't in the altar. I really wish I was a deacon, but unfortunately, that's the way things have to be :-[ so any answers please post.
May god bless you all and please remember me in you're prayers.
I have a question that i need help with. Why are women looked down upon in our faith. For example, they can't be deacons even if they aren't in the altar. I really wish I was a deacon, but unfortunately, that's the way things have to be :-[ so any answers please post.
May god bless you all and please remember me in you're prayers.
Comments
Hello and Peace to you all,
I have a question that i need help with. Why are women looked down upon in our faith. For example, they can't be deacons even if they aren't in the altar. I really wish I was a deacon, but unfortunately, that's the way things have to be :-[ so any answers please post.
May god bless you all and please remember me in you're prayers.
i am sure many will response to this and many opinions will be posted.
but i wanna ask this: what's the point of you becoming if you can't go into the Altar?!!
and do you really know all the duties of a deacon?
http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php?topic=132.0
But among the 11 or so pages of the thread, i found the wisest response to the shortest, that is, read 1 CORINTHIANS 12!
It explains this matter in depth, how the Church is the Body of Christ and that as a body, each member has a specific function that is equally important as the rest. St. Paul wisely says that can you imagine an eye getting upset because it's not an ear, etc.
So like mina and everyone said, everyone in the church has their own service-- we are all serving the same Lord in different ways, all to the glory of His name and the salvation of our souls.
There might be some people who blame Eve for the fall of all mankind and quote some parts from the bible to back their misguided way of thinking. There is an ancient Jewish prayer that reads as follows: O Lord, I thank you that you didn’t create me women. In my opinion, women are closer to God’s heart than men. Go to any prison, bar, or anywhere where evil is abundant and you will find more men than female.
Our faith teaches what a special place women have. Allow me to mention some few points:
1. As women were looked down because of Eve, they are now glorified because of St. Mary.
2. St. Mary was the first women to believe and accept Christ before any man did.
3. There were many women which follow Christ and tend to Him during his ministry.
4. One of the few to whom Christ clearly told that He is the Christ was the Samaritan women by the well.
5. The first to witness the resurrection of Christ were women when they went to anoint Christ’s body.
And many more to list. Though some think women are below men, it is merely a misconception and not the true representation of our faith. As such, we must learn the special place women have, if not for the sake of our mothers, sisters and wives for the sake of our orthodox faith.
Lastly, if we are to compare Christianity with any other religion we will truly see how Christianity views women.
Pray for me and my weakness
In Christ
Theophilus
i think, though they have to be celibate (like monks). other orthodox denominations definately have deaconesses and they are there in early syriac manuscripts.
in our coptic church, married (and single) women can be sunday school teachers and all girls can be in the choir and give out the envelopes and collect the money offering.
may God grant us all the honour of serving Him with every aspect of our lives.
i know what you mean, and i see what everybody is saying about everyone having a different role to play in the church, but it seems like males do have a much bigger role than females. what is the reason for that?
that's what you think and see. you just don't know how much "may" the women do. as it was said, you can become a deaconess. but that is kind of hard because you are basically a nun living in the world with the exception of being married or was married.
Yes, of course a man may be a liturgical deacon and have some service to perform at the altar, but he may not be a deacon, yet he is still called to serve as much as a woman.
Looking at my own community I would say that 95% of the things which I can thunk should be done could be done by a woman, and there are 15-20% of things that I would expect a woman to be doing and that a man should not. Here is just a list of a few things that come to mind in my own Church, and these may well be different to anyone else's:
1. Cleaning the Church building - men and women
2. Keeping the building in repair - men and women
3. Organising a Children's Club - men and women
4. Helping at a Children's Club - men and women
5. Designing an advertising leaflet for the Church - men and women
6. Distributing an advertising leaflet for the Church - men and women
7. Visiting elderly people in the Church - men and women
8. Giving people a lift to Church - men and women
9. Helping to create and produce printed materials, books etc - men and women
10. Designing and printing weekly newsletter - men and women
11. Organising Day of Prayer for Eritrean Church - men and women
12. Managing Church website - men and women
13. Keeping the accounts for the Church - men and women
I'll stop here, although I can think of lots of other things, but it seems to me that apart from the actual celebration of the Liturgy - during which there are still many things that non-deacons, both male and female should be doing - not least welcoming visitors, helping families with children etc etc - there are a huge amount of things that men and women should be equally involved in.
Father Peter
There is a part in the bible where st paul says: woman can't have authority over man
because man was created before woman and it was woman who sinned first
thus, are we now to blame for what Eve did?
secondly, when he uses the 'god created man first' argument, does this mean that it was predistened by God that man would rule over woman? or was it not a punishment when he said to Eve: your desire shall be for your man and he shall rule over you
Please someone elaborate on the points mentioned
God bless
Actually i am a deaconess in St john church in LA. We are not actually called really deaconesses but an ecclesiastical choir. We dress kinda like deacons and we stand in the first 2 rows of church. We sing, we can play the cymbals, and we arrange communion. Our bishop just had a huge meeting with all the deaconesses in the diocese and he answered all our questions wisely.
someone asked if we can do the readings(pauline etc..)
And he said if we are doing an all girls liturgy or we are at a girls' convention we ARE allowed to do them
For the altar thing, this is wut he said:
Girls are not necessarily forbidden to enter the altar. He refered to the bible passage where it says it is the sacrifice that is on the altar that is holy and not the altar itself (he was talking to the pharissees). So the bishop said both girls and boys can enter because we eat and drink the body of christ and therefore we are both holy. Also abouna says "the holies for the holy". The reason why we have deacons is that in the old church, there was order and this is how it should be kept. He didn't say girls should serve in the altar but he emphasized that we are holy because we partake of the sacrifice that in on the altar equally. In the old church people took comuunion in an order. It was first the married, then the virgins etc.
Also someone asked why can't we make "orban", he said it is not that we aren;t allowed but it is that back then only an ordained deacon could do orban not any person that wanted to. Now things have changed.
I am just trying to give u a quick answer because we had like a whole day of questions. Hope that helped.
Pray for me.
I know 1 church has 72 deaconesses by itself!
My church has around 35
Thank you soooooooo much for bringing that up!!! I have argued so many times with different people about this issue!! The comments have answered so many of my questions but also brought new ones. How do you become a deaconess? We have so much in common. Thank you again for bringing that up.
God Bless
-marina
Yes, we can do all the readings at an all girls liturgy. There is nothing wrong with that. It is not that girls are subservient to guys in the chruch. Like i said before we are both holy because we partake of communion. it is not the altar the is holy but the sacrifice that makes it holy. By taking the body and blood of Christ we are allowed to enter the altar and do the readings, we just don't because it is not in our church's tradition but when necessary (ex: there are no guys at the church) then we are allowed to lead, play the cymbals, and do the readings. The abouna at my church did an all girls liturgy for us and it was simply AMAZING. Abouna even loved it so much that he said we will have one once every 2 months.
1. She organizes the communion lines.
2. She is the Sunday School teacher of the only fully English speaking class in the church.
3. She helps to organize a convention every October for H.E. Metropolitan Bishoy.
4. She is partially responsible (the other person is Abouna himself and the treasurer of the church) of the information on all of the families of the church.
All this at the age of sixteen! One can only imagine what responsibilities she will hold in a few years! DO NOT underestimate the power of women.
I KNOW all will disagree that because a bishop made it this way.....but sure. He's respected and it is his diocese.
But you can't call every girl that is serving a "Deaconess." I respect many girls and many of their services in the Church even more than many "deacons" for many good reasons. but i would never go head call them "Deaconess," being a rank in our Church that is meant for others
- You'll tell me that this is the literal meaning of the word.....sure, i am not disagreeing. BUT that was never used that way in our tradition. To do otherwise you would be going against our tradition.
- You'll also tell me that there are MANY deacons out there that are ordained and know nothing and do nothing. So they are just called deacons by name not by action. YES, also i can't say that is wrong......but i can't take that, being something not right (not really wrong either) and apply to other cases.
the whole idea is that you can't solve the contemporary thought of the Church being viewed sexist with another whole concept instead of TEACHING. through this forum there are MANY posts about this topic of women in our Church. and none of the answers were let's take them and call them "deaconess" so they feel better in Church. REALLY!!! After 1900 years of history we think that we are the only people who have the mind to come up with this idea!!!
Call them servants (because they ARE).....call them choir...etc ANYTHING.....but not give them the name of a different rank and put them in the rank of others.
Now about going into the Altar and all of that.......Our Tradition is CLEAR about this. I don't think there is much debate to be done here about this....
Aren't deaconesses ordained as well? I knew one in the area, and she was never married and lived for service alone. Is there something I'm missing?
well they are not specifically "ordained" but to make it simple.....something close to that.
and that's exactly what i am talking about; like lsalsa said:
"We are not actually called really deaconesses but an ecclesiastical choir. We dress kinda like deacons and we stand in the first 2 rows of church. We sing, we can play the cymbals, and we arrange communion. Our bishop just had a huge meeting with all the deaconesses in the diocese and he answered all our questions wisely."
so how is it that you are called "Deaconess" and you're not really one?!!......and as i understand it from what is said.....you are just having some groups of girls do what deacons do.......which is, in my opinion, not right. It just defies the whole concept of "all have specific duties in our Church."
again it goes back to the main topic.....why can't women do what deacons do.....and approach here to solve this is not right in my opinion.
If u read in a liturgy book it says "priest" "deacon" (inside the altar) and "congregation"
So technically the epsaltos deacons and the choir and the people are simply called congregation. As a congregation we sing and we partake of the liturgy equally. So we are not taking the roles of deacons cuz their offical role is inside the altar.
Of course a bishop may do many things as he sees fit for the well being of his disocese, that is his role. And my opinions are only those of a single priest. But if I was having a conversation with my own bishop on the topic I think I would want to raise the following points.
i. Many other Orthodox Churches have female choirs both together with male choirs, and as seperate groups. Therefore it seems to me that we cannot say that it is non-Orthodox for women to sing as a choir, but we can still say that in our Coptic Orthodox context our bishops have not considered it appropriate.
ii. In some Orthodox Churches, such as the Indian as far as my experience allows me to say, all of the congregation expect to join in with the hymns and the mixed choir is there to support the congregation in their worship and not to replace them. Therefore it is also Orthodox for everyone to expect to join in the hymns, both male and female, though again, we can still say that some other situation is also Orthodox within the Coptic Orthodox context if our bishops consider that more appropriate.
iii. In some Orthodox Churches I have seen that women lead the choir as choir mistress, and in other places, not least due to a lack of able men, they also are relied on to lead the choir and to fill the choir. Therefore it seems to me that none of these activities can be called un-Orthodox in an absolute sense, but they may be less common in the Coptic Orthodox context again due to particular pastoral concerns.
iv. If there was a proper demarcation of order in the Church then it would be clear that a few trusted men who had made a great commitment of their lives to God would be called to be Deacons, and in other Churches this sense that they have a true ministry from God is recognised by them being called Father Deacon. We would also see that there were a number of others, trusted men, who were raised to Subdeacon and whose ministry was to serve the Deacons. Then there would be others who were perhaps Readers, who were beginning to be given responsibilities.
But most of those boys and young men who had things to do would be an equivalent of one of the other minor orders which all churches have - acolytes, altar boys, etc.
The choir of deacons would then be something else. It would be a choir of those dedicated to leading the worship, with an Arch-Psaltos at their head and these would not be altar deacons but the head of the congregation at worship. In such a context and with a clearer idea of altar service and choir service it is much easier to understand the creation of a female choir in the LA diocese. The psaltos is a servant, in that he serves, but in a traditional Orthodox understanding of the order of the Church I do not think he is rightly a deacon.
So I do have issue with calling a female choir 'deaconesses', but then I have some issue with calling a male choir 'deacons'.
It isn't helped by having the same word meaning various things in English. But we wouldn't call all old people 'priests', just because the Greek word presbyter means 'old person'. I don't think we should call all those who serve 'deacons'. That is one way around the issue of what do we call an organised choir of females, but I think it the wrong one. I personally (and it is just my opinion) think that there should be a clarification of all the orders of the Church with a clearer idea of the roles and responsibilities of each order.
For instance, I don't think that the patristic tradition allows for anyone less than a Reader/Lector to read the lessons in Church, and historically this order was associated with having reached a certain level of understanding of our faith, more than simply being able to read.
Father Peter
i attended the coptic church for a couple of years before i realised not all deacons were deacons.
it didn't help me when friends tried to explain that someone we knew was not a deacon but an 'epsaltos' as no-one was quite sure how to translate the coptic (or is it greek?!) into english or arabic.
so could anyone tell me all the coptic 'levels' in the diaconate with english and arabic translations?
also what are the 'entry requirements'? (age, celibacy, marriage, gender etc) also until what age can girls serve (candles etc)? in my friends church there are 2 very enthusiastic little girls who delight to hold candles and can stand there for ages without getting tired or bored, i am extremely impressed with that. one of the previous posts said girls can serve till puberty, but what age is considered puberty?
also can you be head of sunday school as a woman, or only assistant? i have heard some churches have a 'full deacon' who is head of sunday school, but most churches i have been to don't seem to have any 'full deacons.' is it because it is not needed, or is it because there are other people who are unsure of the requirements and therefore not being trained for these positions?
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04647c.htm
It provides a brief overview of the historical development of the diaconate, and illustrates how varied it has been practiced over the centuries and in different places.
Also excellent is the article by Bishop Mettaous
http://www.coptichymns.net/module-pagesetter-viewpub-tid-1-pid-158-page-3.html
And the Wiki article is also very useful
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deacon
As far as my own practice goes, under my own bishop, only a full Deacon may serve the chalice to the congregation, while a Subdeacon may not, and any one below a Subdeacon should not handle the chalice or paten at all.
The fact is that in a small church with a small number of 'deacons' there will be many tasks which are shared around, but if I had a larger church with a greater range of 'deacons' then I would want to have a more definite order in terms of who did what.
I am not sure that I would go with having young girls vested for the liturgy apart from in a choir since it seems to me that it would generate expectations that will not and should not be fulfilled as the child grows older. I would much rather have women serving fully and properly in the life of the Church and being role models for younger girls. I would like to have a few full Deaconesses who were responsible for organising the service of the girls and young women, and I would like to make some sort of explicit disconnect between the idea that only those who vest in the liturgy are doing 'church work'. It is far from the case, as I have said elsewhere.
This is why it would be good, in my opinion, to have only a few proper Deacons, so that just as not every male expects to be a Priest or Deacon, or even Subdeacon, but expects to serve in the Church, so though there would be a relatively few full Deaconesses, nevertheless all women and young women should also expect to serve.
Perhaps it is necessary to have a 'prayer for service' that can be prayed over both males and females.
I do believe that the service of the altar is exclusively male, but I also believe that there are many roles and responsibilities that women should be exercising, and perhaps are not always. These are not secondary at all. What is more important in the life of a local church, being one of tens of young boys holding a candle, or supporting an older, more experienced Deaconess in visiting the sick and elderly, running a Sunday School class or Children's Club?
An epsaltos is a singer or choir member and therefore not strictly a Deacon at all. I am not sure but there does not seem to be anything in the prayer for an epsaltos that could not be prayed over a female as it is not an ordination which is reserved to the higher ranks of the proper deacons.
Father Peter
You're actually explaining more of my reasoning for what i was saying.
About the Epsaltos rank; the rank itself was dead and it was only revived by Pope Shenouda III. He revived the rite of ordination and the duties of the rank to fit those who are young to become readers. That's actually why Epsaltoses are not supposed to wear a badrashel; just a tonia. well i don't blame you at all for this. As i said, being a reader deacon, there are many deacons are just so by name. Normally when you are in a choir (i feel comfortable with using the word 'chorus' here) with a huge number of deacons, there are many things that come with it; since it's not about ONE person anymore but rather the WHOLE CHORUS and what the all do in every aspect of being "deacons."
I have already saved it for future reference!
By the way the girls i mentioned were not wearing robes.
(what is 'tunia' in english? is 'robe' a good translation?)
in case anyone else wants to know the 'ranks' they are here, from the second website:
1. Epsaltos (hymnist)
2. Anaghanostos (reader)
3. Epidiakon (assistant deacon)
4. Deacon (full deacon)
5. Archdeacon (head of deacons)
anyone know the arabic for these?
also, does the assistant deacon (i assume this is the same as subdeacon) wear the patrachil like the deacon (on the sholder) or like the reader (crossed over at the back)? and what is 'patrachil' in english, is it a 'stole'? and, mina, is it a 'badrashel' in arabic?
i agree that other church work is equally important, just i want to answer the questions of my many non-orthodox friends and relatives who see all these people in robes and wonder what's going on! i want to learn it correctly so i can pass on the information to others :)
I think that there is confusion in practice in some Coptic churches.
Father Peter
Epsaltos: no badrashel
Oghnostos: badrashel with the cross on the back (which is mostly done)
Epoziakon: on the left shoulder.
Eziakon: on the right shoulder.
Arshezeiakon: on the right shoulder (i think) with the addition of a crown.
I fail to know the meaning of each, but i think it's clear in Fr. Tadrous Yacoub Book.
best word for tonia is just "tunic"....more like "liturgical tunic"
As far as I understand, and in my own experience, a reader should not wear a stole at all, a subdeacon has it crossed over, and the deacon has it over the shoulder.
I think that there is confusion in practice in some Coptic churches.
Father Peter
I agree with Mina, within the COC the reader wears the badrashel as a cross on the back. And as stated, the Psaltos itself was never part of the original rites of the deaconate and so officially the anaghnostis is the first rank. However, I've heard to opinions about the epideacon. The first is as Mina stated with wearing the badrashel on the left shoulder. The other is I've heard (and seen in an ordination by HG Anba David) that the Epideacon is to wear it the same as an Anaghnostis and that from the deacon they wear it on the shoulders and the crown for both ranks.