Hi,
I know we talked about this topic before, but I never really discussed this side of it:
If we commit a sin, we know (from H.H's book on repentance) that there is ALWAYS an earthly punishment associated with that sin.
My questions are:
a) What if there is not? God,being Just, how does He deal with the person?
b) I heard that some fathers say that you should be thankful to receive an earthly punishment, because it means you have been spared from the eternal punishment.
Is that true? I just heard something of that nature, but I'm not entirely sure.
c) Does God's forgiveness mean, in anyway, that we escape punishment (heavenly or earthly) just through repentance?
I mean, let's say someone who raped women all his life and in his last few years alive, he repented and confessed everything - then he dies. So, God has forgiven him. And when God forgives, He separates our sins like the East is separated from the West. But what punishment did that person receive? He seems only to have received eternal life??
d) Should we seek to do service (charitable deeds) to punish ourselves for our sins? Or should we escape punishment where possible?? For example. Let's say that I stole some money when I was a young kid. And I repented for this. Should one punish himself by volunteering to do charitable work? Or what?
Does anyone know an example of someone who received heavenly rewards for his/her repentance, yet paid an earthly price for their sins??
Does anyone know an example of someone who did many bad things on earth, yet received no punishment on earth, and yet was saved by virtue of his faith?? Who has done a sin and never escaped the consequences??
Does repentance nullify the consequences of sin??
Comments
by Charles F. Stanley
The apostle Paul wrote, “Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap” (Gal. 6:7). As familiar as we are with this cause-and-effect relationship, there is still some confusion about how it fits with the forgiveness of God.
When some believers receive divine mercy, they expect the Father to miraculously erase the cost of their sinful choices. When that doesn’t happen, they may start to wonder, Did God really forgive me? Does He truly love me if I’m still suffering?
So the question in their mind is, Should Christians who have been forgiven by their Creator have to endure the results of their sin? The answer is, “Yes, sometimes.” Forgiveness and consequences are not opposite ends of a spectrum. Together, they establish an essential part of the Lord’s plan for believers.
Forgiveness is relational. The Father accepted Christ’s death on the cross as a substitutionary payment for the sin-debt we owed. By receiving His pardon, we can have a friendship with Jesus.
On the other hand, consequences are circumstantial. The man who drank for many years and developed cirrhosis of the liver knows that his disease has a direct link to his alcohol use. The woman who had an affair realizes, deep in her heart, that her ruined marriage came as a consequence of her sinful choice. The promiscuous person knows his sexually transmitted disease is a result of an immoral lifestyle. God does not often remove consequences like these simply because someone trusts Christ as Savior or confesses sin.
I could go into other illustrations, but perhaps the most compelling one comes from the cross itself. Christ made it clear that the thief dying with him was completely forgiven (Luke 23:39-43). Yet moments later, the man died an excruciating death. His sins had been erased in God’s sight, but he suffered the punishment for his crime.
Consequences from sin are not an indication that a person isn’t saved or that God is angry with that individual. The Lord frequently allows some painful situations to continue so He can teach us lessons we would otherwise never learn. For example, suffering caused by sin can lead us in quiet desperation to seek God’s forgiveness. Very few things motivate us to give Him our undivided attention like being faced with the cost of our wrong choices. When we draw near to the Lord, He reveals how to respond correctly to painful circumstances. Unprecedented spiritual growth will often result.
And even painful consequences do not prevent us from rejoicing in the Lord’s gifts of salvation and grace. We all have scars. Their purpose is not to cause us grief as a daily reminder of our sin, but rather to remind us of how gracious and merciful the Lord is. Praise God! He loves us and chooses to work though us despite our past mistakes and wrong choices. People who still bear scars from past sins often become the most effective at leading the lost to know Jesus as their Savior.
Our attitude towards negative consequences affects how we relate to our heavenly Father. It could mean the difference between reaching a point of understanding and thanking Him for the daily reminders of His grace, or becoming bitter. We can view our scars as monuments to God’s grace, or as ongoing punishment. I encourage you to see them as proof of your spiritual healing. If you do, I guarantee that you will change, even when circumstances stay the same. But in that case, your ability to trust God in difficult situations will take on new and exciting dimensions.
Rest assured, sinful decisions have consequences, if not in this life, then in the next. We are blessed, though, because the principle of reaping and sowing works in a positive way as well: “The one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life” (Gal. 6:8 ). We can sow good seeds that will turn negative situations into positive ones. For instance, I’ve known couples who started to make wise decisions after suffering the results of poor financial choices. Over time, they experienced the benefit of their right actions.
Don’t spend the bulk of your time trying to convince God to remove painful consequences. Try praising Him instead. In His wisdom, the Lord allows these reminders to keep you away from further sin and its effects. As you humble yourself before Him, ask the Father to give you the ability and courage to walk away from sin and toward His almighty arms. Begin “sowing” to please the Spirit rather than your flesh. God may never change your circumstances, but He will renew your strength and change your life.
Adapted from “Charles Stanley’s Handbook for Christian Living” (1996).
Tell me this:
Jacob deceived his father by pretending to be his brother (Esau) in order to receive the blessing of the 1st born from Isaac.
Deception is wrong.
Now, when Jacob came to get married, he too was deceived. He ended up being decieved by his uncle who fooled him in marrying the wrong girl.
Now, let's answer the following questions:
a) Did Jacob get what he deserved? Did the punishment fit the crime?
b) Was this punishment from God, or was it "teaching him a lesson".
See, I don't believe that God does these things to "teach us a lesson". I feel he teaches us mercifully, and yet he punishes us justly. God teaches us in the secret, and punishes us in the open. This is what my old FoC once said:
When Christ was on the cross, they mocked Him and told Him that if He was the Son of God, that He should save Himself. But instead of "teaching them a lesson", Christ preferred to give us salvation rather than prove anything and teach us anything.
I mean, would it be really Christ's personality to teach us a lesson that will make us miserable for the rest of our lives for a mistake that we made once?
But there is chastisement. One who is a slave is punished. One who is a child is chastised.
The one has in mind justice, the other has in mind reformation and transformation for life and for the exercise of sonship.
When we sin, the punishment, if we wish to put it that way, and I don't, is the loss of communion with God. Nothing else matters. If we think that we have been punished for a sin by scraping our car then we have not really understood what the Christian life is about.
What is life, the Christian life, it is to know God and His Christ. Nothing else. It is not about success in ministry or in accomplishments, it is not about being loved and valued by others. It is not about possessions or job or education. All of these things may come as God wills for our blessing. But they are not what life is about.
The loss of any of these things cannot be understood as a punishment by the faithful Christian because, as St Paul says, I count everything as loss (as something negative) compared with knowing Christ.
Now there are legal consequences of breaking the law in a civil society. If I rape or murder someone then I will face the penalty of the law, but this is not a divine punishment. What if I am prideful? Which law will judge me? Certainly not any civil law. Indeed the world teaches us to be prideful. Neither will I be punished by God, because I am not a slave, but by baptism and the reception of the Holy Mysteries I have been made a son through no merit of my own.
When I am proud I will be chastised. This is not punishment. If I consider it punishment then I have not understood my relation to our Heavenly Father. If I am proud I will be humbled. This is not a harsh sentence but a loving medicine. Part of the healing process is to understand that we are chastised for our good not punished to satisfy God's wrath.
If someone appears to have sinned and not been brought low then we should not even begin to consider their situation but should hasten to judge ourselves saying, how much more have I sinned and how much more do I deserve to be chastened so much more than God in His love brings upon me.
The Scriptures teach us that our life is to be one of love. The one who loves and is loved has no fear of punishment. Does this mean that chastening is painless? Not at all. It can be much more painful than a legal punishment. But if we only fear God when we have done wrong then we still have a way to grow. Rather we should fear the loss of grace, the loss of the presence of God within us. That should be the most appropriate of responses to sin.
One of the saints committed a sin and felt that the grace of the Holy Spirit had withdrawn from him. He stood in prayer on a rock for 1000 days until God answered his prayer and restored the sensible presence of the Holy Spirit to him. This is not a rule to follow, God chastens us in different ways according to our need and situation, but the saints understand that nothing that happens to us matters, nothing is a punishment, compared to losing the sense of the presence of God within us.
If we feared that more then we would sin less. When we sin, that is what we must fear losing and repent to prevent, and bear with as long as God asks us to endure it.
If my car gets smashed up, it doesn't matter. If I lose my job, it doesn't matter. If everything seems to go wrong, it doesn't matter. As long as I have God and know that He holds me tight. None of these things are punishments, they are all opportunities to grow and to be more rooted in God. There is a consequence to sin, we may have to put things right in the external situation, we may face civil punishment, but the greatest consequence is inward.
The Lord chastens those whom He loves.
The passage posted in this thread is very useful and truthful. As in all things relating to our lives as Christians the answer to bearing the cosnequences of our sins is 'sometimes' because God deals with us and knows us as precious individuals whom he has created to know God in a special and unique way, just as my children are all unique.
May He give us the grace to benefit from and bear His loving discipline
Father Peter
"
From H.H Book Life of repentance and purity
However, for your comfort, and so that you do not fall into
despair and fear, I say to you that God does not punish us for
every sin with an earthly punishment. This is because the
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sins of man are innumerable: "For we all stumble in many
things" (James 3:2). If God punished us for every sin with an
earthly punishment, the punishments would continue without
end and without restriction to match the number of sins.
However, God abandons many, and in the midst of the
hundreds of sins, He punishes for one of them, so that man will
not be negligent and fall into carelessness. He will then be
humble and benefit spiritually, just as in the case of David the
prophet.
God in His mercy allows earthly punishment to call
us to awakening and rise from our deep. He also uses it to
lead us to contrition.
We feel then that we have sinned and that we have angered
God, consequently, repent and return to Him. Therefore, we are
rescued from the eternal punishment, this is not because the
earthly punishment has taken its place, God forbid, but because
it awakened us to repent and so we become worthy of
forgiveness through the blood of Christ.
Our suffering here on earth is better than that in eternity and
better than its shame. The eternal judgements are fearful, but
it is up to us to avoid them. At this present moment, it is in
our hands to decide our destiny. Saint Paul the apostle could
say with all courage: "Finally, there is laid up for me the crown
of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give
to me on that Day" (2 Tim 4: 8). Would you be able to say this
same phrase as Saint Paul? I wish you could. Even when the
crown of righteousness is given to you, watch out and: "Hold
fast what you have, that no one may take your crown" (Rev
3:11). Live the life of repentance and awareness all your days.
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Fear of punishment due to sin, motivates you to repent.
Doubtlessly there are other incentives, as will be explained in
the next chapter."