I'm talking about Coptic fasting: abstaining from all animal produce.
Of course abstaining from food for the entire day is a clear sign of self control.
However, what is one gaining by replacing milk with soya milk?
What is one gaining spiritually by replacing hot-dogs with soya hot dogs?
What is one gaining spiritually by replacing meat with soya-protein?
Heck, I had a vegetarian hot dog once that tasted even better than the real-deal and it was cheaper.
Please keep your answers focused on the above points: I think it is abundantly clear that fasting helps self control; but now we can eat whatever we want so long as it is vegetarian (Vegan) then are we really depriving our bodies from gastronomical pleasures??
Let's not forget a few things: Waraq inab is seeyamee and so is Fata, and so is Tabouleh. I can live on tabouleh. I love that stuff... and homous!!
What is the spiritual benefits of abstaining from animal produce?
Comments
I see what you're saying. There are, as you are probably aware, different levels of fasting. For some people, just not eating the real deal is a hard struggle. But that is not the only level. Bishop David told us (i think it was the Pope) who said if you smell some tamayyah and think it smells good (appetizing), then you shouldn't eat it. This is a higher level of fasting. One might like to associate only with the monks, but we can reach this state too. It doesn't mean you can only eat fool that has gone bad, but it means you shouldn't really eat with desire. The whole point in the first place is to control your desires, beginning with the desire for food. I personally am against these non-fasting foods turned into fasting like the soy-products you mentioned. I think it defeats the purpose of fasting.
Thanks for appreciating the problem.
Secondly, I find all food tastes good. I can't get enough of it. I just made myself a BEAUTIFUL cream cheese sandwich made from SOYA milk!! It was DEEELICCIOUS!!!!
So, what exactly am I gaining by avoiding animal products???
What?
My FoC suggested now that there is Vegetarian Pizza, and he recommended that I try it. He seems more experienced than me in soya food.
It is a great book to read especially during a period of fasting as the one we are in.
Let us strengthen one another during the Lent.
In Christ
Theophilus
QT, wonderful question as always. Since you asked a focused answer I will try to be as concise as I can be. Here is a quote from the book ‘The Spirituality of Fasting’ by HH Poe Shenouda III; “fasting is not substituting one food for another, and it is not abstaining from food for a certain period of time…” (Page 71).
It is a great book to read especially during a period of fasting as the one we are in.
Let us strengthen one another during the Lent.
In Christ
Theophilus
Theophilus,
You could have continued the verse. What else did His Holiness say? If fasting isn't substituting one food for another, then what is it? Because, frankly, I feel I'm just substituting one food for another.
I fasted once with catholics when we went on a pilgrimage, and the way they fast was really serious. All they ate the entire day was bread and drank water. That's it. Well, to be honest with you, it was quite funny because they all said they were going to fast, and so I was asked to participate. I fasted my "Orthodox" way and purchased 50 kilos of fruit and 20 litres of soft drinks to prepare me for the fast, only to discover that none of them were eating anything. They just fast with bread and water. LOL. hehehe...
I bought a lot so I could share it with them!! And then when I offered them some grapes they were kind of upset that it was as if I was trying to tempt them with food and make them sin... gosh! LOL. It was in fact the best pilgrimage i've been on in my life, and I have really good memories.
Anyway, please explain the rest of the story: what IS fasting the Coptic way if it isnt just simply replacing one food with another??? Because, from where I'm sitting, it feels that way!
http://tasbeha.org/content/hh_books/fasting/index.html
In Christ
Theophilus
QT,
I see what you're saying. There are, as you are probably aware, different levels of fasting. For some people, just not eating the real deal is a hard struggle. But that is not the only level. Bishop David told us (i think it was the Pope) who said if you smell some tamayyah and think it smells good (appetizing), then you shouldn't eat it. This is a higher level of fasting. One might like to associate only with the monks, but we can reach this state too. It doesn't mean you can only eat fool that has gone bad, but it means you shouldn't really eat with desire. The whole point in the first place is to control your desires, beginning with the desire for food. I personally am against these non-fasting foods turned into fasting like the soy-products you mentioned. I think it defeats the purpose of fasting.
I agree compeletly, eating the seyami substitutes for fetari food, to me, is like cheating yourself...
And we should deprive ourselves of our wordly pleasures to seek the heavenly ones... so for instance, if I looovveeee fool, then I should try not to eat a ridiculously large amount of it and fulfill my desire for fool even though fool is seyami and thus not 'against the rules'...
We should focus on the spiritual side of fasting, the time you don't spend eating you can spend with God, in prayers, contemplation, reading spiritual books, going to the church, visiting the sick, etc.
It's very sad when we see people focussing on food only and forgetting the whole point is to focus on that stuff less
Letting go of the world makes one able to soar very high...
God bless
QT, here is a link for the whole book. The quote i used above is at page 71.
http://tasbeha.org/content/hh_books/fasting/index.html
In Christ
Theophilus
Hi. It is on page 61. That's great.. but he doesnt say WHY or WHAT the spiritual benefits are in us abstaining from animal produce.
What do we gain SPIRITUALLY by abstaining from animal produce??
Can someone just answer the question and start the answer using the following sentence:
We gain spiritually by abstaining from animal products because:
In Paradise, we ate only fruits and vegetables. Humans did not start eating meat until after the Flood. After the flood is also when people stopped living 900 years.
Thus, we fast to return to our state in Paradise and to Paradise itself.
Plus, St. Paul says Romans 14:2 (New King James Version)
2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables
Also, Remember the story of Daniel and his friends who fasted with vegetables and water and were stronger than all the other people who ate meat and drank wine.
Finally, animal products are heavy. They weigh you down physically (or, on the scale, they weigh you up ;D) You body is fatigued and you're more likely to be lazy and sin when you're full, especially with meat or lasagna, or heavy food. But when you're fasting, you're light and ready to stand and pray!
The food we eat is just a symbol of the worldly pleasures and things on this earth that we enjoy. Like someone said before, if you really enjoy a certain type of food, even if its siyami, you might consider (with the help of your foc) giving it up. Disciplining the body in this way can allow our spirits to grow. If we can give up foods that we enjoy, then we can give up sins that we enjoy and have kept with us for so long.
pray for my weakness that I may overcome my sin during this fast
We gain spiritually by abstaining from animal products because, for most people, animal products are something that they enjoy and have an appetite for.
OK. Brilliant. Now we are on the same wavelength. The problem is - I enjoy soya products the same as animal products. God created me with Michelin 0 star appetite, so everything tastes good.
So, if the reason is to abstain from what you enjoy - then what am I gaining if I enjoy soya-vegan based foods?
I agree with this, and it is for this sense, i've given up stuff like TV etc. But at the end of the day, the Church will not allow us to eat meat, but will allow us to eat vegieburgers that taste like meat, and it will stop us from eating yoghurt when the alternative tastes just as good!! I mean, it seems a bit pointless.
So, if its just a symbol, we aren't really gaining much unless we give up things we love/desire. I admit, I've given up Burger King because I love that, but i love the taste of foule medames with cummin and lemon. I love the smell of tabouleh, and the beautiful taste of Ma7shy.
Then there's fataa... wow. .did you guys know you can make fataa without using chicken cubes. You can use vegetable cubes instead. it is really lovely.
Listen, thanks a lot for your advice,
I hope you all enjoy this fasting period as much as me.
On the one hand we abstain from certain foods, and on the other hand we eat less by only eating at the time our spiritual father instructs us.
I have been taught that the reason we abstain from meat and dairy products is not so much because we like those foods, though there is that element to it, but rather that meat and dairy products contain within themselves animal nutrients which tend to enflame our passions. By abstaining from these foods we allow our bodies to 'cool down' as it were.
The reason we do not eat until later in the day than usual is because this teaches us to deny ourselves, to feel bodily hunger, to be aware of the bodily desire for satisfaction which can easily dominate us, and to offer these cravings to God as a form of worship. It would be easy enough for us to fill up on food that we didn't much like if the Fast was just about giving up our favourite food. But we are encouraged to give up all food until later in the day.
So I would suggest that it does not matter that you enjoy Soya based foods. Just do not eat them until later in the day as your spiritual father instructs. Do not eat the most expensive you can find. Do not eat as much as you can just because it is Soya. The main thing is avoiding animal nutrients as far as possible and eating less. This is the practical essence of the Fast.
Of course the spiritual essence is not found simply in doing what the Church instructs. The avolding food is only half of the Fast.
In Christ
Father Peter
There are two elements to our fasting during this season.
On the one hand we abstain from certain foods, and on the other hand we eat less by only eating at the time our spiritual father instructs us.
I have been taught that the reason we abstain from meat and dairy products is not so much because we like those foods, though there is that element to it, but rather that meat and dairy products contain within themselves animal nutrients which tend to enflame our passions. By abstaining from these foods we allow our bodies to 'cool down' as it were.
The reason we do not eat until later in the day than usual is because this teaches us to deny ourselves, to feel bodily hunger, to be aware of the bodily desire for satisfaction which can easily dominate us, and to offer these cravings to God as a form of worship. It would be easy enough for us to fill up on food that we didn't much like if the Fast was just about giving up our favourite food. But we are encouraged to give up all food until later in the day.
So I would suggest that it does not matter that you enjoy Soya based foods. Just do not eat them until later in the day as your spiritual father instructs. Do not eat the most expensive you can find. Do not eat as much as you can just because it is Soya. The main thing is avoiding animal nutrients as far as possible and eating less. This is the practical essence of the Fast.
Of course the spiritual essence is not found simply in doing what the Church instructs. The avolding food is only half of the Fast.
In Christ
Father Peter
But what if you are married? Is it so bad to have these passions?