Difference between the Spirit and the Soul and other questions

edited December 1969 in Coptic Orthodox Church
Can someone kindly tell me the difference between the Spirit and Soul?

What is the function of each one?

Where does the conscience live? Does the conscience live in the brain, or the soul or the spirit?

What is renewed during baptism? The soul or the spirit?

When we die, what goes to heaven: the soul or the spirit?

Where IS the soul? I mean, where does it physically reside in the human? If our souls go to heaven when we die, then no doubt they must be linked to a part of our body?? Which part?

Comments

  • OK,

    Where is the soul located?
  • Good questions.

    I think the Conscience is related to the spirit. Maybe someone else knows better

    do a google search







  • I remember reading this same topic before.Check here:


    http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php?topic=6832.0
  • QT_PA_2T, you have raised a highly theological question which is intertwined with our salivation. Since, it is such a vast topic I can only share according to my limited understanding. In the history of our church many heresies had arose concerning the soul and spirit. These heresies illustrate that understanding what the soul and spirit are is related with our salivation and our orthodox faith. Here are some examples:
    Origen the Erudite transmigration of souls
    • Souls were created before the bodies, and they are bound to bodies as a punishment of previous sins they had committed; the world is for them only a place of purification.
    • The soul of Christ had a previous existence before the Incarnation and it was united with Divinity. 
    Apolinarius: Divinity of Christ replaced the human soul, and suffered with the humanity.
    Due to this and other heresies it is necessary to understand what soul is, and what spirit is though they are usually used interchangeably. Bishop Kallistos Ware in his book The Orthodox Way (page 47-48) states the following:
    1. The Body: “dust from the ground” (Gen. 2:7), the physical or material aspect of man’s nature.
    2. The soul: the life-force that vivifies and animates the body, causing it to be not just a lump of matter, but something that grows and moves, feels and perceives. Animals also possess a soul, and so perhaps do plants. But in man’s case the souls is endowed with consciousness; it is a rational soul, possessing the capacity for abstract thought, and the ability to advance by discursive argument and from premises to a conclusion. These powers are present in animals, if at all, only to a very limited degree.
    3. The spirit: the “breath” from God (Gen 2:7), which animals lack. It is important to distinguish “Spirit”, with an initial capital, from “spirit” with a small s. The created spirit of man is not to be identified with the uncreated or Holy Spirit of God, the third person of the Trinity; yet the two are intimately connected, for it is through his spirit that man apprehends God and enters into communion with him.
    Bishop Kallistos continues to discuss this issue, and I recommend you read his book for more explanation.
    As for the location of the soul it is stated in the Holy Bible that it is in the blood/lifeblood. Genesis 9:14 commands not to eat meat that still have blood, which Deuteronomy 13:23 explains is because the blood is the life/soul. This commandment is reaffirmed in Acts 15:20. Therefore, the soul/life resides in the blood/lifeblood.
    It should be underscored that man is a unique creature for unlike angels he is not spirit only; and unlike animals he is not soul and body only. Man is spirit, soul and body.
    For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth. John 4: 24
    In Christ
    Theophilus 1


  • Theophilus,

    Thanks a million for your post. It was highly informative. My only blocking point is Origen. Does the CoC agree with your statement, or is this just the personal perspective of Origen?

    Thanks
  • QT_PA_2T the statement is shared by the COC. Here are some more facts about Origen. Although Origen was a great theologian and we use a lot of materials which he wrote, that are proved orthodox he died condemned as a heretic. It is unfortunate that such a great man came to such ending.
    Pope Demetrius (12th) excommunicated him because he was ordained a priest, while unworthy, and without the agreement of the Pope of Alexandria and for some theological heresies in his writings. Pope Pontias of Rome held a council which also approved the excommunication decision (232AD). Other churched excommunicated him and his followers in the Council of Constantinople in 553AD, after his death. 
    Though we don’t accept his heresies we still use a lot of his materials and are considered as one of the greatest academies of the church. We learn from him one should not seek knowledge only but also obedience and humility which are greater virtues.
    If you have more information on soul, spirit and body it would be great to know. God bless you.  :)

    In Christ
    Theophilus
  • [quote author=Theophilus 1 link=topic=7668.msg100503#msg100503 date=1235522145]
    QT_PA_2T, you have raised a highly theological question which is intertwined with our salivation.


    Thanks Theo. I know i raised this topic before, but I didnt get many answers, and none as specific as yours! :)


    Since, it is such a vast topic I can only share according to my limited understanding. In the history of our church many heresies had arose concerning the soul and spirit. These heresies illustrate that understanding what the soul and spirit are is related with our salivation and our orthodox faith. Here are some examples:
    Origen the Erudite transmigration of souls
    • Souls were created before the bodies, and they are bound to bodies as a punishment of previous sins they had committed; the world is for them only a place of purification.

    Souls were created BEFORE the bodies? When? Where are they created? When are they "Bound" to the body?? and WHERE does the binding occur?? So, basically, that realises the case where a soul could exist for a body, yet that body may not have even been created?


    • The soul of Christ had a previous existence before the Incarnation and it was united with Divinity. 

    So, when we say "Soul of Christ" - it means Him without His body? I.e. Christ ONLY took flesh from St Mary, yet He existed before.

    So - you are saying that Christ's soul existed before? But if a soul is meant to be bound or joined to a body, what was Christ's soul joined to before it was bound to His Body as baby Jesus?

    See - my understanding was that Christ's Divinity united with every part of His Humanity. It united with His Soul and His body when He was conceived in St Mary's womb. How does that fit into your explanation that His soul, being divine required it being United with His Divinity after His conception?

    Did Christ really need an education in history, or did He already know the past by Virtue of His Divinity??


    Apolinarius: Divinity of Christ replaced the human soul, and suffered with the humanity.

    Are you saying that Christ did not have a human soul? That His soul was somehow different than humans? I thought His soul was the same as ours except that it was united with His Divinity??


    Due to this and other heresies it is necessary to understand what soul is, and what spirit is though they are usually used interchangeably. Bishop Kallistos Ware in his book The Orthodox Way (page 47-48) states the following:
    1. The Body: “dust from the ground” (Gen. 2:7), the physical or material aspect of man’s nature.
    2. The soul: the life-force that vivifies and animates the body, causing it to be not just a lump of matter, but something that grows and moves, feels and perceives. Animals also possess a soul, and so perhaps do plants. But in man’s case the souls is endowed with consciousness; it is a rational soul, possessing the capacity for abstract thought, and the ability to advance by discursive argument and from premises to a conclusion. These powers are present in animals, if at all, only to a very limited degree.
    3. The spirit: the “breath” from God (Gen 2:7), which animals lack. It is important to distinguish “Spirit”, with an initial capital, from “spirit” with a small s. The created spirit of man is not to be identified with the uncreated or Holy Spirit of God, the third person of the Trinity; yet the two are intimately connected, for it is through his spirit that man apprehends God and enters into communion with him.
    Bishop Kallistos continues to discuss this issue, and I recommend you read his book for more explanation.

    Brilliant. That's good. I think B. Kallistos is a good source. But what the spirit which was breathed into man - what exactly is this, and what does it do?? What is its purpose exactly?? And what are its effects on the soul??

    What changes happen to the spirit and to the soul AFTER baptism??


    As for the location of the soul it is stated in the Holy Bible that it is in the blood/lifeblood. Genesis 9:14 commands not to eat meat that still have blood, which Deuteronomy 13:23 explains is because the blood is the life/soul. This commandment is reaffirmed in Acts 15:20. Therefore, the soul/life resides in the blood/lifeblood.
    It should be underscored that man is a unique creature for unlike angels he is not spirit only; and unlike animals he is not soul and body only. Man is spirit, soul and body.
    For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth. John 4: 24
    In Christ
    Theophilus 1

    Thanks a million Theophilus 1. Until I get a hold of the Orthodox Way, could you help in answering the other questions I have posted??

    God bless you


  • Hey QT_PA_2T just to explain myself; I mentioned the following as examples of heresies concerning the soul. They are false teachings.
    Origen the Erudite transmigration of souls
    •  Souls were created before the bodies, and they are bound to bodies as a punishment of previous sins they had committed; the world is for them only a place of purification.
    •  The soul of Christ had a previous existence before the Incarnation and it was united with Divinity. 
    Apolinarius: Divinity of Christ replaced the human soul, and suffered with the humanity.
    Again these are examples of false teachings.
    As for your other questions:
    But what the spirit which was breathed into man - what exactly is this, and what does it do?? What is its purpose exactly?? And what are its effects on the soul??
    What changes happen to the spirit and to the soul AFTER baptism??
    I would be waiting for someone more learned to answer as I am ignorant of them.
    God bless you  :)
    In Christ
    Theophilus
  • [quote author=Theophilus 1 link=topic=7668.msg100523#msg100523 date=1235574484]
    Hey QT_PA_2T just to explain myself; I mentioned the following as examples of heresies concerning the soul. They are false teachings.
    Origen the Erudite transmigration of souls

    Thanks Theo...


    •   Souls were created before the bodies, and they are bound to bodies as a punishment of previous sins they had committed; the world is for them only a place of purification.
    •   The soul of Christ had a previous existence before the Incarnation and it was united with Divinity. 

    So, just if you can confirm - are these heresies??


    Apolinarius: Divinity of Christ replaced the human soul, and suffered with the humanity.
    Again these are examples of false teachings.
    As for your other questions:
    But what the spirit which was breathed into man - what exactly is this, and what does it do?? What is its purpose exactly?? And what are its effects on the soul??
    What changes happen to the spirit and to the soul AFTER baptism??
    I would be waiting for someone more learned to answer as I am ignorant of them.
    God bless you  :)
    In Christ
    Theophilus

    Thanks Theo. I'm looking forward to the discussion
  • Yep they are heresies!!! Forgive me if I confused you.
    In Christ
    Theophilus
  • Hang on,

    If Christ existed before the ages, then why is this a heresy? Which part of Christ existed then before the creation of man??
  • Dear QT

    No part of Jesus existed before the incarnation. The humanity of Christ was created by the Holy Spirit from the flesh of the Virgin Mary. But the Word of God has always existed and it is He who has united to Himself this humanity in the very act of its coming into being. It is therefore the humanity of the eternal Word of God, even though it has come into being at a particular moment.

    The issue of whether or not man is bi-partite or tri-partite has occupied many Orthodox Fathers. Of course what matters is what is meant by these terms and how they affect the incarnation and so both positions, in their own contexts, can be true.

    But if we look at Adam then we can see that he is created as we are ourselves. That is, he has a body and a mind, and also a human spirit. And we can consider that the intelligent mind is especially the locus for the spiritual activity in our humanity. Mind is both physical and spiritual. St Cyril and St Severus speak of all these components.

    Now the in-breathing of the Holy Spirit seems to me to be different to the human spirit. This is because St Cyril and St Severus teach that we are ourselves the same as Adam and Eve were created, and we know that the spirit of a man exists apart from his body, even if he is without the Holy Spirit. St Severus also teaches that the angelic beings also exist in blessedness by their communion with the Holy Spirit, even while they are also spiritual beings themselves.

    So it would seem to me that man is essentially body and spirit/soul and the mind is both physical and spiritual, it is the physical organ moved by the spirit/soul. St Cyril and St Severus make this distinction when they say that the judgement - dust you are and to dust you shall return - is spoken to the body, while the spirit/soul preserves its eternal life and the possibility of turning to God. There must be some component of mental activity in the spirit/soul alone, since it would seem that the disembodied human spirit/soul has some capacity for mental activity. But it would also seem that the spirit/soul requires the mind/body to be completely human.

    In Christ

    Father Peter



  • Father, could you explain this in Christ's situation..

    Being a Person(Hypostatis) in the Trinity, coessential (of the same Nature) with the Father and the Holy Spirit, was Christ then merely Spirit? Soul? Mind?

    And when He united with the human nature, resulting in the One Compostie (Miaphysite) Nature of the Logos Incarnate, was it His Divine Spirit/Soul that united with His human spirit/soul and His body?

    Meaning, we have agreed that Spirit/Soul and Body are the two (three) aspects of the Human Nature, what then are the aspects of the Divine Nature (eg Christ before Incarnation) and what are the aspects of the One Composite Nature of the Logos Incarnate?

    Also, what happened when Christ died in respect to His Spirit/Soul??

    Thanks in advance

    God bless
    Please pray for my weakness
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