There are a lot of lost people in the world. Some deny God, some who seek solace in praying to idols or nature or other people. Some are drawn so far from God they choose to worship spirits who rose up against God. Some think they are genetically determined to act in ways that are sinful according to the Bible.
As if that weren't not bad enough, we have people who identify themselves as religious (Christian as well as non-Christian) who do some abhorrent things, sometimes under the guise of faith and service to God.
Worst of all (and the intended central topic here), we have fellow believers who say and do very bad things to our lost family, who use profane language and tell people that God will send them to hell for what they are doing.
For example, a few years ago I found a friend of mine believed that he was a woman in a man's body and intended on having surgery to fix the condition of having been born the wrong gender. I still think I understood clearly who and what he is; he is a person, not any better or worse than anyone else, who was confused. I spent a lot of time listening and talking to him about the mistake he was planning on making, and praying and asking fellow Christians for guidance and support. Even still, it seemed like every time he started making some progress, there was another overzealous Christian there to call him a freak or to tell him that he is gay (he believed himself to be straight under the assumption that he is a woman). In a much more pivotal moment an individual who was a youth leader in his church said some things to him that I'm sure I would be kicked off of the forum for even hinting at. Please just take my word for it; it was disgusting.
Another example: I was talking to a Wiccan practitioner along with a friend of mine from church. Again, I think she was beginning to accept the possibility that there may be some validity to the "whole Christian thing". That is of course until my friend's rude and thick-headed insistence that she was a devil worshiper ended the constructive phase of the conversation and ended up doing no apparent good.
Rough judgmental responses like those I've mentioned make our lost family members feel separate, alienated and unwelcome.
I observe that there is a lot of fire in the responses in this forum that sound a lot like the unhelpful Christian extremist statements I've mentioned above.
I already know that the Coptic Church does not condone hating anyone, but I really feel like I need to know that the people who are the face of the church, who act and interact in society and call themselves Copts are not acting in such ways, not being forceful or hateful, not telling a person what they believe when they are clearly saying something different.
George
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in other words... malaksh da3wa... none of your business... worry about yourself, and through that others will see your good works and glorify your Father who is in Heaven!
Akhadna el baraka... Neshkor Allah!
I observe that there is a lot of fire in the responses in this forum that sound a lot like the unhelpful Christian extremist statements I've mentioned above.
Quite true! At some point in our lives, we tend to step on a "holier than thou" moral high-ground from where we look down on or be overly critical of others. Honest criticism can be beneficial if it targets the sin rather than the sinner. Unfortunately, in most cases it turns out to be prejudiced, fire-spitting and downright insult-laden episodes. I used to struggle with these situations sometimes when for example, I heard of someone in my family deserting Orthodox tradition in favor of a charismatic or pentecostal group.
But since then, I have started to realize that the best testimony we could bear as Orthodox Christians would be to live by example - by focusing on actual living out Christianity in its true sense before trying to "evangelize" others. Its a tall order, though. The more we reflect on our shortcomings, the more we realize how much we have missed the mark. And the more we try to nitpick on the presumed faults of others, the more we drift away from our priorities. We lose our orientation spiritually, get needlessly agitated over lesser issues (differences in worship practice, etc.) but become apathetic towards critical issues (poverty, upkeep of moral standards, corruption etc.).
I have read that Orthodox life is a long journey that is often solitary, turbulent, contemplative and puzzling. Unlike other traditions, a herd-mentality doesn't really work in Orthodoxy. Its a consciously made choice by the individual and the monastic tradition probably explains this unique aspect of our great faith. Prayer, fasting and other acts have their respective roles in molding our faith. Fortunately, we have the rich legacy of the Saints and the Fathers to look up to.
Please elaborate. Are you saying I shouldn't be concerned about Christians being rude to our lost family, or that those fellow christians should mind their own business?
Abba Anthony was meditating on natural things things that God chose to allow. The concerns I'm talking about are that people on this forum and next to me in church are glorifying God in one breath and in the next driving his poor lost children further away.
Thanks,
George
Whereas it is good to fast, to pray the Agpeya, to attend liturgies etc etc. These are only the means by which we seek to prepare ourselves to receive grace. The grace which God gives is not tied to our fasting, praying and spiritual exercises. If we fast with faith then God may well give us grace, but fasting is not the same as being a good Christian.
We are always at risk of falling into a moralism which confuses the outward practice for the inner reality. Therefore we conclude that we must be better Christians than those who fast and pray less than us, or who attend the liturgy and other services less, or who do not serve as deacons of various sorts.
When we judge the spiritual state of others we are always exhibiting pride. We are exposing our own sense of self-righteousness and self-sufficiency. When we judge others of sin we fall into sin ourselves. This is why the Fathers are so clear that it is humility which is required for spritual growth. Humility leads us to excuse the sins of others while confessing our own. It leads us to find reasons why others act as they do while rejecting any justification of our own sins.
If we fast every Wednesday and Friday, and throughout all the Fasts; if we pray all the hours of the Agpeya; if we read the Scriptures each day; if we are often found in the Church; if we do all these things and allow ourselves to judge others then we have completely wasted our time. We have not even begun to understand the Christian life.
But how do we act towards those who act in a judgemental manner that drives people away from the Church and from Christ? I guess that in the first place we must try not to judge them. We must recall our own judgemental attitudes and ask that these others find grace as we need grace. I am not sure that it is possible for us to do good by confronting such people rather it is the place of our priests to preach on judgementalism, and for our bishops, priests, deacons and for us all, to show Christian love by the way we act and speak towards those who others reject.
There is a recovering alcoholic who comes and worships with us sometimes. He sits at the back and I hope he finds some comfort in being with us. My priest has spent a lot of time just talking with him as a friend. My priest visits other folk in prison who find his visits a blessing but who are not Orthodox or likely to become Orthodox. My priest shows my congregation by his example how we are to respond to people who are in various difficult situations.
Perhaps in your situation you could ask your priest to preach about judgementalism, even saying that you need a word from him to teach you how to approach people, rather than saying that others need to hear such a word? You could pray for those who seem to be judgemental, but also seek to think of the reasons why they take such a view, are they deeply committed to Christ, but have perhaps not fully understood the Gospel?
Thanks for raising this issue. It is an important topic and I know that there is a judgemental attitude in me sometimes that needs repenting of.
In Christ
Deacon Peter
to you, don't judge them... they have their judge... so what you can do is just mind your business and by you worrying about your salvation, people will be attracted to the light, either astray or extremist! when they see you loving God with all your heart, they will learn to mind their business also and worry about their salvation... and they also will attract the astray and/or the extremest... and on... and on...
what you can do is if you see something like that done by a younger person... you can talk to them about it... about how they need to worry about their salvation, and by judging others they are committing one of the most dangerous sins... which is blasphemy...
akhadna el baraka... neshkor Allah!
I agree with some of what you are saying. Living a joyous Christian life is the best way to evangelize to people who have lost their way. Part of the problem here is our overly judgemental Christian brothers are numb to this effect. Since they are beleivers they well know the joy of following Christ's example, and they know all about the sacrifice Jesus made for us. If the story ended here there would be no problem; if the Christians to which I'm referring knew their own frailty, and knew that the only way we are acheiving our salvation is by holding on the the hem of Christ's robe there would be no problem.
The problem arises when a Christian judges himself against someone who'se faith is lost. They see that they pray and fast and go to church and they seem to think that these actions are the vehicle of their salvation. When they see people who are doing sinful things they look with disgust, and in the worst case say imposing, mean and/or hurtful things which they try to justify by quoting God's word.
When we (Christians) realize that we are essentially no different from the people who do even the most abhorrent things, a lot of different feelings and inward reactions seem logical and natural. We feel grateful that we have God's laws available so we can strive for spiritual and moral perfection; we feel grateful that we have a myriad of examples to follow in the saints and prophets; we feel grateful that Jesus gave us the perfect example; we feel grateful that Jesus gave himself for our misdoings. The only outward reaction I can understand toward our lost family is the strong desire to want them to experience the same joy that we experience, and to receive the same gifts that we have.
The reason I'm bringing this up is not to judge fellow Christians for judging others. I'm bringing this up because I've seen a few lost bretheren almost come back to Christ, only to be ridiculed by fellow Christians and turn away discouraged. For my own comfort, I want to know that at least Coptic Christians are not pushing sinners away.
George
Akhadna el baraka... neshkor Allah!
i have written some thoughts on the book of Jude on my blog
http://onesimushelper.blogspot.com/
NESS<><
You're absolutely right in saying that the battle is the lord's, and maybe that's what SuperMAN(BAM) meant when he said I should mind my own business.
It's clear that one of my spiritual goals must be to practice having more faith in God's plan.
It's just that I find this particular item very difficult. I love my Christian brother, and I love my lost brother; when my Christian brother says something hateful to my lost brother and the lost brother starts to think that Christ's teachings lead to hatred, I feel like I'm losing both of them.
Maybe part of God's plan involves people like me, who are concerned for these matters, to make them more known; maybe he's got something else in mind.
Please pray for my faith.
Thanks,
George
The other problem thats quite common in the Coptic community is that we don't like to deal with issues and so no one does anything about it. In fact you may be attacked for bringing up your concerns. Even here in this forum you got some of those responses - do not judge others, mind your own business,worry about yourself and leave it all to God. As Chrisitians we have to stand up for whats right and reject whats wrong. It is our duty to discern between good and evil and that is not to be confused with judging. There is a huge difference between judging and discerning.
It seems like people in church are more judgmental than people outside. How can that be if we call ourselves Christians? Where is the compassion and love?
Yes I am in compleat agreement with you Christians seem to be the hardest people to love :) isnt that sad i mean arent we the ones who hold the truth this is why the book of Jude has like become my mantra a book to think about all the time
NESS<><