Hello,
Can someone tell me if the CoC recognises the visions that Vassula had? Is this woman someone the CHurch encourages to read her works?
What are her thoughts on issues like purgatory and the immaculate conception?
I'm really confused, and I can't seem to find information about her opinions.
Thanks
Comments
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=hUO4rkYA4B4
Who allowed this woman in our Church to do this???!!!!
Since I posted this, I've been reading where I can about this woman. her beliefs are not in line with ours, and she is definately not orthodox in her spirituality. Even the Catholics are against her.
What on earth is she doing in our Church? Who on earth allows her to conduct charismatic prayer groups in our Church!?
Glad you are informing us of such a movement since it might be something we need to protect ourselves and our Orthodox belief from. I don't really know what to make out of it. Personaly it sounds phony. Here is a site about her: http://tlig.org/
Keep up your post on the issue.
In Christ
Theophilus
i have checked out theophilus' link, i had not heard of this lady before. it seems she is greek orthodox.
i also don't know what to think. i think probably when it comes to people claiming to have great visions, we should take plenty of time before making any judgements.
i think we should check out the theology; is it sound? and then also check out the person; what is her life like? how is her family? is she honest and trustworthy? does she enjoy all the attention or is she humble? does she drive the latest car and wear designer clothes, or is she ordinarily dressed and seeking spiritual riches? finally we should check out the impact of her teachings on those who follow them; are they loving and gentle? or are they bitter and combatative?
in history there are plenty of saints who started out as ordinary people before they got great visions and amazing teaching. they came from all walks of life. there are also plenty of imposters and people who spread the Christian message for fame or money.
most of the letters of paul and the catholic epistles are full of ways to check out new teaching, i think we should look in there for guidance and not jump to any hasty conclusions, neither that she is amazing (she may later sin and so we should not rely on her) nor that her teaching is from the devil (we may be opposing God without knowing it).
i hope one of the admins or clergy can give us some guidance here.
may we be ever humble and ever watchful (as shrewd as serpents and as innocent as doves).
may God help us all
it's all about church politics where there no place for us--being part of the flock-- to be. It's not surprising the pope met her. SOOOO....we try to have peaceful and loving relations with anyone who believes in Christ. not the first ya3ny considering our many meetings with all kind of protestants in egypt--referring to our clergy not really US.
http://www.britishorthodox.org/113b.php
It's at the bottom of the page.
Peter
Metropolitan Seraphim made a statement about Vassula here..
http://www.britishorthodox.org/113b.php
It's at the bottom of the page.
Peter
Peter,
Ive' read the letter. I think it is clear that this note applies to us (The Coptic Orthodox Church) - we are One with the British Orthodox Church -
I thought the letter was so important that I am going to paste it below:
MRS. VASSULA RYDÉN & ‘TRUE LIFE IN CHRIST’
GENERAL MEMORANDUM
From: His Eminence Abba Seraphim, Metropolitan of Glastonbury
New Series: 21
5 August 2005
To:
the clergy of the British Orthodox Church
with pastoral responsibility and to all the faithful.
My dear Fathers & Brethren,
Literature is currently circulating advertising a public meeting to be held in Central Hall, Westminster on 10 September 2005, where the speaker will be Mrs. Vassula Rydén. This has been arranged by an organisation known as ‘True Life in Christ’ which exists to promote the prophetic messages received by Mrs. Rydén, which “inspirations through the form of locutions and … interior visions”, she attributes to either our Lord Jesus Christ or to the Holy Mother of God.
Mrs. Rydén was born in Egypt in 1942 of Greek Orthodox parents and was baptised in the Greek Orthodox Church. She professes to be “committed fully” to the Greek Orthodox Church, although she admits that “Some of the Greek Orthodox hierarchy totally reject me …” in part because she espouses a position which seems representative of Roman Catholic spirituality; calls for the Orthodox hierarchy to acknowledge the Pope as ‘Vicar of Christ’ and usually communicates at Catholic altars, justifying this by quoting the Decree Orientarium Ecclesiarum of Vatican II.
She has found enthusiastic supporters among numbers of Anglican, Catholic and Orthodox clergy and has often utilised the opportunities offered by ‘Inter-religious Pilgrimages’ (such as her ones to the Holy Land in March 2000 and to Egypt in October 2002) to cultivate members of the local hierarchy, who are not always fully aware of all her activities.
Having studied published statements by Mrs. Rydén I feel it is appropriate to offer the following guidance to the clergy and faithful:
1. In receiving the sacraments at altars other than those of the Orthodox Church, Mrs Rydén is disregarding Orthodox canonical discipline which forbids this.
2. Mrs. Rydén should seek the canonical permission and blessing of the local Orthodox hierarch having jurisdiction in each place, prior to addressing public meetings, rather than act in the face of their sometimes expressed opposition and criticism.
3. Until such time as a canonical Orthodox hierarchy is able to make a detailed and full examination of the messages received by Mrs. Rydén, they should be regarded with grave caution and their authority attributed solely to the views and aspirations of Mrs. Rydén herself, rather than any angelic, saintly or divine source.
+ Seraphim
Metropolitan of Glastonbury
Note:
The statement in the True Life in God UK Newsletter No. 6 (November 2005) that His Eminence Abba Seraphim along with H.M. Queen Elizabeth II and the Archbishop of Canterbury, “sent us their good wishes for the meeting” is untrue. An invitation was sent to Abba Seraphim and a reply sent on his behalf stating that he had another engagement and would be unable to attend, but asking to be kept on the TLIG mailing list and for copies of the documentation supplied to be sent to other Orthodox hierarchs in the United Kingdom.
Hey QT_PA_2T
Glad you are informing us of such a movement since it might be something we need to protect ourselves and our Orthodox belief from. I don't really know what to make out of it. Personaly it sounds phony. Here is a site about her: http://tlig.org/
Keep up your post on the issue.
In Christ
Theophilus
yes. I agree. It sounds phoney. She had no right to force herself in our church. The Greek Orthodox Church aren't happy with her, and the Roman Catholics are very cautious of her (Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger especially warned his congregation about this woman).
I'm 99.9999999999% sure H.H pope shenouda had no idea who this lady was, or what she was doing in his Church, nor the fact that she was intending to run a charismatic prayer meeting in our Church.
He excommunicated abouna Daniel for the stuff that Vassula is doing. A lot of people seem to get a buzz when someone prays in a Charismatic way. Charismatic prayer seems to draw attention.
I'll post more links, but I could not agree more with Abba Seraphim: Approach this woman with caution!!
http://www.catholicdoors.com/isit/isit07.htm
OK.. so the Catholics are against her; but what about the Orthodox? I mean, she's greek orthodox. Do we have anything here to add?
Peace!
I have some friends who are part of the TLIG in my parish in Sydney. The Orthodox (and I believe Catholic) followers of Vassula are usually staunchly sympathetic of Ecumenism. For instance, the family that I have in mind visit Catholic, Hillsong, and Orthodox Churches. Typically she has followers from the Anglican, Catholic and Orthodox Churches (those who do not have 'sola scriptura' as the guiding principle- though I would argue that even then Church Tradition would likely have a negative effect on her activity).
I read her "diary" few years ago. She apparently was an actress and later was called on by her guardian Angel (which is not really Orthodox, more Catholic). She would write conversations with Angels (from memory, Archangel Michael), St. Mary and lastly, Christ- and even the Persons of the Holy Trinity. The way this happens is that she writes her thoughts, and they use her hand to communicate/dictate back- each having a distinctive (hieratic) handwriting.
The conversations are rather lovely- there is much that attracts you to the conversation. The very personal way that Christ addresses Vassula almost comforts you.
That said, there is a huge controversy surrounding the books and TLIG prayer meetings:
- she or perhaps, Jesus, says that St. Peter is the foundation of the church
- that the canons and the ordained ministers are being defied by her and those sympathetic to her
- her statements are mostly ambiguous
- she claims that one must not reject her works- that it is blasphemy (but not in so many words, so I might be overstating this point)
- that there is no real vision of what this reconstructed church would be like
- apparently there has been renditions/changes in the messages? (but this was from a disgruntled Catholic)
- she is obviously closely related to the "charismatic" movement, like you, I guess.
- she says that Christ will further re-open the doors of the Church- but the holy life has been attacked recently (for e.g. the adoption of homosexual and atheist clergy), so this has me weary about what is meant by this
I am still quite wary of her book, and think it is too profound for me. I don't trust myself to be able to discern her works, and I have asked God many years ago to help me to give me an answer, but I am very weak in faith. I am very fearful of dismissing it as heresy, but I also feel that this was what St. Paul warned Timothy and the churches- to keep the sound doctrine once and for all delivered by the Apostles.
Anyway, whether she is a heretic or not, I wish I can be even have a fraction of the intimacy she has with (her) Jesus.
As for more on what she has to say, I can't really offer much more because of the rather ambiguous nature of the writings, or the style (conversations naturally are disorganised and difficult to trace). Further, I only have her first notebook, and I think this is the book that if this is all true, is establishing her relationship with Christ with this method.
I am really sorry that this is lacking anything definitive. But, she is very real- as you can tell by the fact that I have met few families (of Catholic background) that trusts her, and that I have her book in my possession.
There are many Catholic websites that negatively evaluate her messages (though they are either in the infancy, or not very convincing in my view). The Vatican has notifications and warnings about her, and they are not actually "modified". They still warn the congregation from accepting the seers words as words of God.
In Christ,
The greek orthodox church has distanced themselves from her, so have the catholics.
But, are you saying that there are Coptic families that are involved in TLIG organisation?
Just reading one report of a visit somewhere it says,
Fr. Habiby then mentioned that messages had been received from: Her Majesty the Queen; the Archbishop of Canterbury; the Archbishop of York; the Bishop of Chichester; the Dean and Chapter of Canterbury Cathedral.
I don't believe that at all. Just as my own Bishop Abba Seraphim had to insist that he had not responded in an encouraging way, so I do not believe that the Queen would respond in a positive way. It is inconceivable. A polite message would have been sent at the most acknowledging receipt of the message from TLIG. And uet it is presented as if the Queen supports Vassula.
The messages are all vague and saccharin, and deny the doctrinal differences between Orthodox, Catholic and Protestants. They are a deceitful message of unity based on nothing but warm feelings, a unity of vague, liberal, wishy-washiness.
I spent some time reading some of these messages when my bishop issued his statement and I was not impressed by them. Perhaps those used to some of the vague messages which appear in charismatic circles would be impressed, but they are not the sort of messages which are truly the word from God spoken through his saints.
Coptic Orthodox should have nothing to do with this, and it is sad that even priests and deacons seem to be getting sucked in to even the appearance of supporting her.
Peter
I could not agree more with your statement.
I'm very cautious about this lady.
I think people are so zealous for unity that they just want to believe any crazy person that tells them that God wants unity.
As for having communion in the catholic church, this is not wise from Vassula. The Orthodox Church would only allow that to happen if she herself existed in an area where there were NO Orthodox Churches. Correct me if I'm wrong?
But that's far from the main point. The main point is: in her messages: what does she want exactly??
The only thing I've understood so far is:
a) God wants ONE Easter Date
b) And One Church with the Orthodox, Catholics and Protestants.
c) Pope Benedict has to be the head of this Church.
Basically, she wants us all to become Catholics?? At the end of the day? How does she propose we deal with the serious issue like lack of spiritual tradition in the Catholic Church and in the Protestant Church?
What about the fact that Catholics do not have the blood, but only the Body, and this is only in the form of a wafer, not bread.. and the fact that this wafer did not come from the main wafer that was consecrated on the alter during the mass? What about the fact that Catholics leave the Eucharist stored overnight ?
What about the fact that Protestants don't believe in baptising children?
What about the fact that Catholics believe in Purgatory, and we don't!?
What about the fact that Protestants do not recognise baptism as a necessity for salvation, NOR confession??
How ON EARTH can we be one? It means that we'd have to forget everything our Church taught us and just become Catholics.