A mature Orthodox response

rpm

Mark 7:2-9
[b]Now when they saw some of His disciples eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands in a special way, holding the tradition of the elders. When they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other things which they have received and hold, like the washing of cups, pitchers, copper vessels, and couches.Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?”
He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:


      ‘ This people honors Me with their lips,
      But their heart is far from Me.
        And in vain they worship Me,
      Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’

For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.” He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.

          These are some verses quoted by certain Protestant / Charismatic / Pentecostal groups when they refer to our church services in a derogatory manner. They tend to draw parallels with the reverence given by our priests and bishops to the vestments and other objects used during worship. According to them, we are so wrapped up in rituals that Jesus Christ gets lost in the "chaos".

              Now, some of us have within our families, such sarcastic people. What would be the best way to respond to their jibes, keeping in mind that hostile reaction would only alienate them from learning more about our way of worship.

God bless,
rpm

minatasgeel

Well. what i would like to understand from the accusations of those people deny our tradition, how can they come to this result without knowing the people's hearts?. Let me explain more:
If i am not mistaken, the context that made our Lord say these words are based on all the fall-downs of His people, Israel. We can understand so from all the history we have in the Bible of their actions. God spoke and proclaimed the conclusion above based on that (not that He needs a reason to justify what He, the Almighty one, says).

God didn't say this condemning the temple, the tabernacle...etc that He Himself made. But He is condemning those who defiled all of these. God doesn't create evil...we all know that. Also He doesn't swear/act and then regret that action. He's GOD.
So the verses below apply to the Jews, said by God, first from His own judgment of knowing their hearts, and second from their own actions that everyone can see.

Now let's think for a second. Have GOD passed down another Bible that condemned one of the Apostolic churches??! have a church of those AS A WHOLE was condemned in this manner as the verse view??!!
I have to say the answer is NO. And our holy Church history proves that.

Now, let's think more. "He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition."

I would like to know, and ask those people to prove, how are we Orthodox reject God's commandments. Every detail in our Church is based on something in the Bible or a tradition that is based on something in the Bible. NOTHING is just their for no reason. NOTHING is done in our churches for no reason. Now to explain everything, it takes many many hours and and text to write. just to study some of it take years of of study in a school sense.

All I have to say is that don't except our church fathers that died for the faith, die for nothing. They died to defend "the priceless pearl of the Gospel", according to my favorite Orthodox quote of Fr. Lev Gillet.

I am sorry i didn't explain much. i just had to say what i thought of this first. there will be many who'll give you much more detailed responses.

rpm

Many thanks for your reply, minagir.

What I meant was that some of them (non-orthodox) are selective in picking verses (often out of context) and using it to create doubts in young minds regarding the authenticity of our worship. Some of them are pretty well-versed with Scripture and so convincing in their argument that a novice would be easy prey.

Just a small example:
I recently went to a bookstore located within a protestant church compound, to look for an easy-reading Bible translation. Seeing me looking around, the storekeeper came running and asked what church I go to. When I told him I was Orthodox, he eagerly started off saying that the Orthodox church was too outdated, formal, dull and bound up in tradition. He'd assumed that I was drifting away from my church and was looking around for options.He later told me he was a pastor and gave me his phone number to keep in touch.

      Unfortunately when such people are within our families, they are unavoidable. During gatherings, the seniors from both sides are often in heated argument. There is sarcasm in their talk and stubbornness as a reaction to the sarcasm from our side. Consequently, discussions get heated and people start rubbing each other the wrong way, causing hard feelings etc. As a firm believer in the Orthodox way of worship, I believe its best to resist provocation and pray that they see the time-tested solidity of Orthodoxy some day. Not all of us are good with words, when it comes to such matters. I'd be happy to hear views from members here who face similar situations.

God bless,
paulos

clay

The heretics, often, do not attempt to look at the deep spirituality and meaning of our rituals. Not only that, they forget that from Ancient Israel to modern day Apostolic Christianity, worship is Liturgical. The Liturgy, in fact, is what we all be experiencing in Heaven.

Further, the Liturgy, is often word-for-word from the Scriptures and only scantly from the Holy Fathers. If they want to argue that Scripture is not Christ-centered, then you are talking to conceited people- leave them. The Liturgy is where the worship of the Ancient Israel kiss with the gospel. In fact, the Gospel reveals Christ in all we do.

The Liturgy, and her rituals is like the Scriptures being played out. Every movement, every sign and symbol, reveal a hidden mystery.

When St. John saw his visions, he was bewildered by the heavens. He did not try to fathom it, but he beheld it. Our protestant brothers would do well to just experience the Liturgy without their preconceived anti-Catholic prejudices that permeate their protestantism.

If they say that our worship is outdated, ask for a Scripture verse? Should worship be according to the trends of the world, or in similitude to the praising of the Heavenly choir?

If they say our worship is dry, ask where in the Scriptures they say that it should be spirited? The Worship should be IN SPIRIT, not in the similitude of rock concerts.

If they say that our worship is not centered in Christ, ask them how is it that all the prayers make mention of Him! And the whole Liturgy is about eating and drinking the holy Body and Blood of Christ.

They do not worship in spirit and truth. I find it difficult to believe how they could see that the whole world, that all the churches before reformation, and even after the reformation, had ritualistic liturgies.

In Christ.

Unknown

[quote author=rpm link=topic=7544.msg99196#msg99196 date=1231657568]
Mark 7:2-9
[b]Now when they saw some of His disciples eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands in a special way, holding the tradition of the elders. When they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other things which they have received and hold, like the washing of cups, pitchers, copper vessels, and couches.Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?”
He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:


      ‘ This people honors Me with their lips,
      But their heart is far from Me.
        And in vain they worship Me,
      Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’

For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.” He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.

           These are some verses quoted by certain Protestant / Charismatic / Pentecostal groups when they refer to our church services in a derogatory manner. They tend to draw parallels with the reverence given by our priests and bishops to the vestments and other objects used during worship. According to them, we are so wrapped up in rituals that Jesus Christ gets lost in the "chaos".

               Now, some of us have within our families, such sarcastic people. What would be the best way to respond to their jibes, keeping in mind that hostile reaction would only alienate them from learning more about our way of worship.

God bless,
rpm


Tell them this:

Joseph, the son of Jacob, pharoah's wife wanted to sin with him. He said to her "how can I commit this sin before the Lord".

Who told him it was a sin? the 10 Commandments came AFTER Joseph. Adultary wasn't written in the Bible as sinful until after Moses came.

Firstly, not everything is written in the Bible. Secondly, the people knew that these things were wrong (adultary and killing etc) and such knowledge was passed on through word of mouth. Passing on through word of mouth such knowledge is known as spiritual traditions. Given that our Church is apostolic, our discipleship is deeply rooted in the spiritual traditions of the apostolic fathers. The knowledge, the meaning of what is in the Bible, and what is NOT in the Bible is firmly concretised in our Church.

Its strange that our Lord tells us that "unless you eat of My flesh, and drink of My blood, you will not have eternal life". How can they neglect these sacraments and then complain that we are fixed on traditions.

Now, then you must explain to them what this verse means. Christ is not asking us to neglect spiritual traditions at all. it iis CULTURAL TRADITIONS that are being questioned in this verse. THAT MUST BE MADE CLEAR. In this verse, we learn that in our society, we can perhaps devalue or trivialise God's Commandments by virtue of our culture.

A prime example is fornication. We live in a society where I have known MANY practicing Christians who will engage in pre-marital sex and when asked if that's against their faith, their answer will be 99% the same : "It was the culture at the time of Christ not to do that, but our culture is different - so it doesn't apply to us".

Such statements, I am sure, are not uncommon for you to read. We have all heard such things. This is what Christ was talking about. That we devalue his commandments in favour of our traditions.

Do not forget also that Protestants believe that Catholics and Orthodox christians worship idols because we have icons. They also think we are heretic because we ask for the intercession of saints. They have mixed up things for themselves.

I am REALLY ok about protestants not liking our Church, as frankly speaking, I cannot stand theirs - in every way that someone can find something repulsive.

But what bothers me is that their problem with our Church is not based on factual information, but ignorance. Their weak understanding of theology, coupled with their closed mindedness about priesthood, only exacerbates their ignorance.

[quote author=minagir link=topic=7544.msg99198#msg99198 date=1231662120]

I would like to know, and ask those people to prove, how are we Orthodox reject God's commandments.

That's the final thing you should tell them. Which commandment are we breaking (FOR GOODNESS SAKE!!) by keeping our apostolic and spiritual traditions? Which one?

mmatt95

It's funny how Christ served on earth 3,5 full years, while only about 25 days or so are covered in the gospels. I wonder where all the teachings from the other days were kept...OHHHHHHHH i remember, it was the apostles in the early church that kept it through tradition. And what more, when was the New Testament written? Wasn't that within a few decades after Christ ascended?? Wait a minute, that must mean that faith existed within the church, even before there even was a New Testament. And how was the bible canon guarded and brought to us to this day? Wasn't that through Tradition?
There's just so much to say concerning Tradition, maybe it's easiest if you listen to this sermon by Fr Antony, he sums it up pretty well, check out part 6: The T word.
The rest of the series is really good too ;)

Unknown

[quote author=Hos Erof link=topic=7544.msg99223#msg99223 date=1231718567]
It's funny how Christ served on earth 3,5 full years, while only about 25 days or so are covered in the gospels. I wonder where all the teachings from the other days were kept...OHHHHHHHH i remember, it was the apostles in the early church that kept it through tradition. And what more, when was the New Testament written? Wasn't that within a few decades after Christ ascended?? Wait a minute, that must mean that faith existed within the church, even before there even was a New Testament. And how was the bible canon guarded and brought to us to this day? Wasn't that through Tradition?
There's just so much to say concerning Tradition, maybe it's easiest if you listen to this sermon by Fr Antony, he sums it up pretty well, check out part 6: The T word.
The rest of the series is really good too ;)


Exactly Hos Erof. The Life of Saint mary and her betrothal to Saint Joseph is clearly explained in our Church books. The fact that Saint Mary's body was taken up to heaven is only admitted by us and the Catholics.

These protestants who accuse us of being heretics have no understanding or can they fathom the basic theological concepts that are required for salvation. I don't think they know how to differentiate between cultural traditions and spiritual traditions.

They see priesthood as a "redundancy" or "blockage" between you and God.
They see asking for saint Mary's intercessions as heresy.

But what do they believe in? What do they do? Well, a lot of them are really into heresy. There are those that preach you are saved by faith alone. No need for baptism.. that's not a necessity, its only just a symbol. There's no need for Holy Communion because Christ said "Do this in rememberance of Me", there's no need for confession, despite the fact that Christ said to His Saintly Apostles "Receive unto you the Holy Spirit, whose sins you forgive will be forgiven... "

They are telling US - that WE have problems? WOW!!!!

The only cultural tradition we have in our church, as far as I can see, is the zaghrouta when people get married. Having said that, I met a guy that told me that even the "Zaghrouta" was from the apostolic times - lol. I think the deacon should do the zaghrouta in the weddings in that case.. but I'll have to look into it before I suggest this to our bishop.