Eparthenos/ Apenchois for the Feast of the Nativity

LifeinChrist

Are these two hymns said during this period of time between the Nativity and Theophany?

mmatt95

Nope, only between the Nativity and Circumcision, so that is untill next wednesday!!!

LifeinChrist

So this sunday they should be said?

mmatt95

Most definitely, you pray in the festal tune, say the festal doxologies / verses of the cymbals, the Nativity hiteni's, praxis response, everything of the Nativity basically!!!! So enjoy ;)

ophadece

[coptic]Hwc erof>
aimeu`i je tetenhwc erwou menenca `psai `nte picouyt[/coptic]
I thought we sing them after the feast of circumcision
[coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]

minatasgeel

[quote author=ophadece link=topic=7531.msg99149#msg99149 date=1231613026]
[coptic]Hwc erof>
aimeu`i je tetenhwc erwou menenca `psai `nte picouyt[/coptic]
I thought we sing them after the feast of circumcision
[coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]


well we pray so untill the feast of circumcision. the feast of circumcision itself have different rite though.

to answer the original question, you say everything you've said on the Nativity except for the morning doxology that is said in matins.

Amoussa01

hos erof,


do you mind providing a source to what you stated earlier? When you said: "Nope, only between the Nativity and Circumcision, so that is untill next wednesday!!!" I would appreciate it. Thanks

God bless
Tony

mmatt95

Amoussa01,

this is the way we have always been praying in my church, from the feast of the nativity untill 5 Touba, that is untill (not including) the feast of the Circumcision, the rites hymns of the Nativity feast are prayed, because the feast of the circumcision has its own rites as Mina pointed out (sorry if that was not clear from my previous post)
I just double checked in the book of Albair, and it says the same:

As for the period between 30 Kiahk and 5 Tobe, its order is as follows: The rite of the Vespers and Prime Raising of Incense follows the same order as the Raising of Incense for the glorious Feast of the Nativity. As for the rite of the Divine Liturgy: the Lamb is offered as usual after the Agpeya prayers; the hymn =A=l @ vai pe pi is chanted; after the absolution, Tai soury is chanted; and in the Hiten the verse for the Feast of the Nativity is added. The Praxis Response of the glorious Feast of the Nativity is chanted; the Trisagion is chanted in a joyful tune; and the Divine Liturgy continues in the same way as during the glorious Feast of the Nativity, except that the Psalm is not chanted in the major Singary tune, but in the minor joyful tune.

http://www.copticheritage.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=PagEd&file=index&page_id=379

I'm sure there's other sources, but i'm sure this will do it ;)

Xrictoc avmacq

PS I've always seen this as a sort of mini-Khamasin, too bad in this period we still fast the wednesdays and fridays :P

minatasgeel

It says so in mFarag's book at the beginning where he writes all the rites; saying that from 29 of Kiahk to Toba 5 it's Festive tune....which just means that the hymns of the nativity keep going except for the special hymns of the exact Feast, which is the special order of matins, including the morning doxology with the 7 ways.

ophadece

[coptic]Myna nem Hwc erof>
]sep`hmot `ntoten e;be petenjinouwnh ebol qa nitaxic alla ]meu`i on je menenca `psai `nte picouyt niparadococ kotou eou nai ne sa piehoou `nte `psai `n[iwmc[/coptic]
Thank you for clarifying the rites but I still think that after the feast of circumcision the rites return to what they were until the day of the feast of Epiphany
[coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]

ophadece

[coptic]Myna - pisasf `nry] `knaer'alin erwou an menenca piehoou `m`psai - ]iwrem ]nou[/coptic]
Mina - the seven tunes you won't sing them after the day of the feast - I am confused now
[coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]

mmatt95

Ophadece,

after the feast of the circumcision the rites return back to anual, the festal period ends there. Then a few days later we fast the paramoun for the Epiphany to celebrate the feast of the Epiphany after. It doesn't even make sense to keep praying the rites of the Nativity after it's been interrupted by the feast of the circumcision, especially because a few days later we fast (without fish and strict abstinence) AND pray in the annual rites for the paramoun.

Mina:

which just means that the hymns of the nativity keep going except for the special hymns of the exact Feast, which is the special order of matins, including the morning doxology with the 7 ways.

I assume u meant without the morning doxology and the 7 ways, which is only prayed in matins on the feast of Nativity, Epiphany, Apocalyps saturday and the Ressurection feast.

minatasgeel

[quote author=ophadece link=topic=7531.msg99165#msg99165 date=1231626878]
Mina:

which just means that the hymns of the nativity keep going except for the special hymns of the exact Feast, which is the special order of matins, including the morning doxology with the 7 ways.

I assume u meant without the morning doxology and the 7 ways, which is only prayed in matins on the feast of Nativity, Epiphany, Apocalyps saturday and the Ressurection feast.


EXACTLY.

mmatt95

Amen Halleluja, we agree on something ;D

ophadece

[coptic]Myna nem hwc erof>
]sep`hmot `ntoten `cnau eucop @ alla `n]tajryout an ;ai `csanswpi `mmyi icje nai[icbw je piy,oc `nrasi ecmyn ebol sa ]paramoni `nte `psai `m`pjinwmc[/coptic]
Thank you both again; but I am not sure if that is right since I learnt that the festal tune remains until the Paramoun of the Epiphany
[coptic]etauvwrj de hiten `psai `mpicyout[/coptic]
although they are interrupted with the feast of the circumcision
[coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]

minatasgeel

[quote author=ophadece link=topic=7531.msg99170#msg99170 date=1231629401]
[coptic]Myna nem hwc erof>
]sep`hmot `ntoten `cnau eucop @ alla `n]tajryout an ;ai `csanswpi `mmyi icje nai[icbw je piy,oc `nrasi ecmyn ebol sa ]paramoni `nte `psai `m`pjinwmc[/coptic]
Thank you both again; but I am not sure if that is right since I learnt that the festal tune remains until the Paramoun of the Epiphany
[coptic]etauvwrj de hiten `psai `mpicyout[/coptic]
although they are interrupted with the feast of the circumcision
[coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]


i have to doubt that. the circumcision is more towards Nativity, supposedly 8 days after birth. But Epiphany/Theophany is the beginning of Jesus' ministry, 30 years after!!!

Amoussa01

Albeirs book was the first placed I checked, and call me crazy, but I don't see where it says that Eparthenos & Apenchoice are chanted.

This was taken from the previous quote in his book:
"The Praxis Response of the glorious Feast of the Nativity is chanted; the Trisagion is chanted in a joyful tune; and the Divine Liturgy continues in the same way as during the glorious Feast of the Nativity, except that the Psalm is not chanted in the major Singary tune, but in the minor joyful tune."

Before the Trisagion hymn, we chant Eparthenos, Pigenmisi, and Apenchoice (I was told it is supposed to be Penchoice because the "A" is only there if the word is followed by a verb). However, nowhere does it say that here. Care to clarify?

Tony

mmatt95

Well he says: "and the Divine Liturgy continues in the same way as during the glorious Feast of the Nativity, except that the Psalm is not chanted in the major Singary tune, but in the minor joyful tune."

If he includes in the description of the "divine liturgy" the rite of the Singary Psalm, then I suppose he means both the Liturgy of the Word and of the Faithfull. It's just something I assume, especially because it's backed up by the practise in all the churches in my surrounding and other deacons service books. He doesn't list all the hymns of the Nativity, but he says clearly that the rite of the Nativity is followed untill 5 touba.

Amoussa01

Yes, I see that the Divine Liturgy continues in the same way, but that is after he mentions Trisagion hymn. Since both, Eparthenos/Pigenmisi and "Penchoice," are chanted before the Trisagion and neither of them were mentioned; it is fair to say that they are not chanted from kiahk 30-Touba 5.

Tony

minatasgeel

[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=7531.msg99172#msg99172 date=1231629930]
(I was told it is supposed to be Penchoice because the "A" is only there if the word is followed by a verb).
Tony


[coptic]A pen=o=c[/coptic], the alpha is like "O" in englsih, i am sure you know that, and Fady can verify that. this is the same with also Apenshois of lent. also it sounds better with an extra syllable.

mmatt95

Mina,
Actually the alpha makes the sentence to be in the past tense,
so you can say: [coptic]Pen¡ Iyc P,c afernycteuin [/coptic] or [coptic]aPen¡ Iyc P,c ernycteuin [/coptic] (Our Lord Jesus Christus fasted), [coptic]af[/coptic]+verb makes it paste tense, or putting the alpha at the beginning of the sentence. Maybe ophadece could verify this, but if I remember correctly this is what we were thaught by the professor of coptology from the university of Leiden.

Amoussa,
I see no reason why ALL the hymns of the nativity are said, except for the ones before the Trisagion. The sources do not explicitely confirm what both of us say. Where did you get your teaching from??

minatasgeel

[quote author=Hos Erof link=topic=7531.msg99177#msg99177 date=1231633996]
Mina,
Actually the alpha makes the sentence to be in the past tense,
so you can say: [coptic]Pen¡ Iyc P,c afernycteuin [/coptic] or [coptic]aPen¡ Iyc P,c ernycteuin [/coptic] (Our Lord Jesus Christus fasted), [coptic]af[/coptic]+verb makes it paste tense, or putting the alpha at the beginning of the sentence. Maybe ophadece could verify this, but if I remember correctly this is what we were thaught by the professor of coptology from the university of Leiden.

that's also another reason it can be used, for, as i was taught. again, Fady would know better.

Amoussa,
I see no reason why ALL the hymns of the nativity are said, except for the ones before the Trisagion. The sources do not explicitely confirm what both of us say. Where did you get your teaching from??

[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=7531.msg99174#msg99174 date=1231631218]
Yes, I see that the Divine Liturgy continues in the same way, but that is after he mentions Trisagion hymn. Since both, Eparthenos/Pigenmisi and "Penchoice," are chanted before the Trisagion and neither of them were mentioned; it is fair to say that they are not chanted from kiahk 30-Touba 5.

Tony


In Anba Mettaous Book of the rites of the year, on page 72, on "the rites of the days from 30 Kiahk to 5 Toba," the rites of the liturgy, it says:
It is POSSIBLE to say the hymns of the nativity.
this point was before: the Trisagion is said 3 times, o ekparthenos....

meaning that we can say the hymns of the Nativity before the Trisagion.

Amoussa01

Hos erof,

I am getting my teaching from the albier's book. If he does not explicitly say that these hymns are chanted, than they are not. That is the whole point of having a book of rites; so we know what exactly is to be chanted and what is not. And I find it a bit curious that he mentioned every other hymn (such as Trisagion and Praxis response) except those two hymns.

Minagir,

I am wondering the date on Anba Mettaous' book, do you have it with you? Because the rites in Albeir's book are up to date with the synod as far as I am concerned.

Tony

Amoussa01

To be completely honest, I really do want to say these hymns but I want to be convinced because I do not think it is right to put my own personal desire to say these hymns over the rites of the church. So please, convince me  :)

Tony

minatasgeel

[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=7531.msg99180#msg99180 date=1231640513]
Hos erof,

I am getting my teaching from the albier's book. If he does not explicitly say that these hymns are chanted, than they are not. That is the whole point of having a book of rites; so we know what exactly is to be chanted and what is not. And I find it a bit curious that he mentioned every other hymn (such as Trisagion and Praxis response) except those two hymns.

Minagir,

I am wondering the date on Anba Mettaous' book, do you have it with you? Because the rites in Albeir's book are up to date with the synod as far as I am concerned.

Tony


i think the latest edition. but it wouldn't be a problem. we been using the book for the last couple of years. and if there was anything that changed it would be MADE CLEAR in Albairs book or by fax to all the churchs here in the USA as we experienced before in major change of rites. if you still don't believe ME, i'll email Sayedna anba Youssef, not that i want to bother him during this time of the year.

Amoussa01

[quote author=minagir link=topic=7531.msg99182#msg99182 date=1231641134]
[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=7531.msg99180#msg99180 date=1231640513]
Hos erof,

I am getting my teaching from the albier's book. If he does not explicitly say that these hymns are chanted, than they are not. That is the whole point of having a book of rites; so we know what exactly is to be chanted and what is not. And I find it a bit curious that he mentioned every other hymn (such as Trisagion and Praxis response) except those two hymns.

Minagir,

I am wondering the date on Anba Mettaous' book, do you have it with you? Because the rites in Albeir's book are up to date with the synod as far as I am concerned.

Tony


i think the latest edition. but it wouldn't be a problem. we been using the book for the last couple of years. and if there was anything that changed it would be MADE CLEAR in Albairs book or by fax to all the churchs here in the USA as we experienced before in major change of rites. if you still don't believe ME, i'll email Sayedna anba Youssef, not that i want to bother him during this time of the year.


Would you please?  ;D

Tony

minatasgeel

[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=7531.msg99183#msg99183 date=1231642945]
[quote author=minagir link=topic=7531.msg99182#msg99182 date=1231641134]
[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=7531.msg99180#msg99180 date=1231640513]
Hos erof,

I am getting my teaching from the albier's book. If he does not explicitly say that these hymns are chanted, than they are not. That is the whole point of having a book of rites; so we know what exactly is to be chanted and what is not. And I find it a bit curious that he mentioned every other hymn (such as Trisagion and Praxis response) except those two hymns.

Minagir,

I am wondering the date on Anba Mettaous' book, do you have it with you? Because the rites in Albeir's book are up to date with the synod as far as I am concerned.

Tony


i think the latest edition. but it wouldn't be a problem. we been using the book for the last couple of years. and if there was anything that changed it would be MADE CLEAR in Albairs book or by fax to all the churchs here in the USA as we experienced before in major change of rites. if you still don't believe ME, i'll email Sayedna anba Youssef, not that i want to bother him during this time of the year.


Would you please?  ;D

Tony


well...ok than. but am not gonna bother him, i'll find someone else to bother him for you....just for you Tony.

Amoussa01

i feel special

Tony

ophadece

[coptic]Myna nem hwc erof>
qen pijwm `nte `psemsi `nte pidiakwn `nte pi;wou] `nte `ptwnf `nte niek`klycia ecjw `mmoc je pibwhem ebolha ]paramoni sa =; `nte Twbe pe (vyetaumici qen By;leem kata ni`cmy `m`provytikon) - ]nou ]emi je ]paramoni va rompi pe alla pwc `cswpi va rompi menenca `psai `nte picouyt?[/coptic]
In the book of deacon service of the assembly of the advancement of the churches it says that the reply from the paramoun until the 9th of Tuba is "[coptic]vyetaumici qen By;leem kata ni`cmy `m`provytikon[/coptic]" - now I knnow that the paramoun is annual but how come it is annual after the feast of circumcision?
[coptic]:wni pamenrit>
]eromologin - pai pe pisorp `nnau je ]emi petafcaji - ce @ pi`sloh `n(A) aryou `nousoft pe icje Pen=[=c I=y=c P=,=c `coueh `ncwc `nje `n`hli `nouryma alla pilexic ;a ryma [/coptic]
I confess - this is the first time that I notice what you said - yes; the letter "[coptic]A[/coptic]" perhaps is wrong since [coptic]Pen=[=c I=y=c P=,=c [/coptic]is not followed by any verb but a verbal clause (in Arabic where grammar is close to Coptic = gomla fe3leya)
[coptic]e;be vai ]`smeu`i kata aMyna caji je aryou `cse `ntecswpi `n(W) alla nicaq ouo;bc `nsoft ie aryou `cse `ntecswpi Pen=[=c `mmauatc[/coptic]
Therefore I can assume like Mina said that perhaps it should be "[coptic]W[/coptic]" but the cantors passed it down wrongly or perhaps it should be [coptic]Pen=[=c [/coptic]only
[coptic]`n]tajryout an pe [/coptic]
I am not sure
[coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]