[quote author=godislove260 link=topic=6927.msg92824#msg92824 date=1216159269] There are a few things to consider here:
Whether you're sure that they actually did something wrong, that it wasn't a misunderstanding or so, because it seems like what you think they did wrong is a very serious matter...
If what they did was indeed so terrible as you say, you still don't know whether God is punishing them or not (maybe He's punishing them privately)... Whether they've repented and are living in regret and guilt now or not...and believe me feelings of regret and guilt can be quite a punishment on themselves...
As I said before if God would punish everyone according to their sins, none of us would be saved and if He's merciful with us then why wouldn't He be with them? And if they don't repent then... well, we all know the outcome, I think that will be punishment enough
And maybe one should wonder: Do I want justice for the sake of justice or do I want revenge?
God Bless Please pray for me
If this wasn't in the Church, i probably couldnt care less if they were punished or not. But - in the Church - yes.. its bad.
As for my "perception" of bad or not.. well.. put it this way: The pope told the priest off (in front of everyone), but - the bishop really got away with it.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6927.msg92823#msg92823 date=1216158672] [quote author=godislove260 link=topic=6927.msg92822#msg92822 date=1216158380] Please forgive me, maybe I replied in a bad manner, I don't want to judge you
Simply I reacted to the part where you said God was silent as if you think He should punish those people, but we're not in a position to demand punishment for anyone because we ourselves have been saved from the just punishment for our sins, which is death God is merciful with us, more than merciful, I think we should at least WANT to be merciful, even when it's hard... I'm not claiming to be able to forgive and forget , however, I do know that this is what's expected of us as Christians, as hard as it may seem.
I don't know the details of those clergy members and what they did to you, but I'm SURE God will deal with them the RIGHT, JUST and MERCIFUL way...
But remember the verse which says (something like): Those who are merciful will be treated with mercy
God Bless Please pray for me
By not punishing them, God is sending a clear message, to me personally, that either He doesn't care about immorality in His Chuch, nor does He care what happens to me. If they were punished, in my eyes, it would increase my faith. Seeing a bishop or priest do something immoral, is VERY disturbing.
Im in no position to condemn. Not at all. But to not see men of God being punished scares me, as - if someone did something immoral who was far from God, it wouldn't bother me because their existence is death: as being far from God is DEATH; but seeing a priest and bishop GIVE the Holy Communion whilst at the same time adament in something immoral is very disturbing. I cannot help feel that God just doesnt care.
the first few lines are very deep, and i really thnk the devil is playing with your mind, God is there, and He will punish them IN DUE TIME.... mybe He won't punish them now, but Judgement day is coming, maybe He is giving them a chance to repent... GOD CARES.... if He didn't care, do you really think that , GOD, the ALMIGHTY, would have went through ALL THE TROUBLE of Salvation, and coming down to Earth, going up on the Cross, with the load of ALL THE SINS of the WORLD, on Him, just for fun? or just to try it out and see how it feels like? IT was because HE CARED, and STILL CARES, about US, ALL OF US..... and our Salvation.............. IF He didn't care, then why would He have bothered to get His people out of Egypt when they were enslaved? He cares, He just has His own time plans, that are not know to any man,.......
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6927.msg92825#msg92825 date=1216159756] [quote author=godislove260 link=topic=6927.msg92824#msg92824 date=1216159269] There are a few things to consider here:
Whether you're sure that they actually did something wrong, that it wasn't a misunderstanding or so, because it seems like what you think they did wrong is a very serious matter...
If what they did was indeed so terrible as you say, you still don't know whether God is punishing them or not (maybe He's punishing them privately)... Whether they've repented and are living in regret and guilt now or not...and believe me feelings of regret and guilt can be quite a punishment on themselves...
As I said before if God would punish everyone according to their sins, none of us would be saved and if He's merciful with us then why wouldn't He be with them? And if they don't repent then... well, we all know the outcome, I think that will be punishment enough
And maybe one should wonder: Do I want justice for the sake of justice or do I want revenge?
God Bless Please pray for me
If this wasn't in the Church, i probably couldnt care less if they were punished or not. But - in the Church - yes.. its bad.
As for my "perception" of bad or not.. well.. put it this way: The pope told the priest off (in front of everyone), but - the bishop really got away with it.
THe Bishop probably didn't get away with it that easy...... The Pope would not have "told the Bishop off" the same as a preist because, like Jesus said: "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. if the Pope told off the Bishop, the people might start thinking that the church is unorganised, and does not know exactly what is doing (cause the Bishop is supposed to be a Holy man, that people look up too), and the Pope also might have chosen not to "tell him off" publicaly because a Bishop should be looked up at, and not be humiliated in Public......
yet again, i wasn't there, so i probablty shouldn't be saying all of this.... please correct me if i am wrong, and sorry if i have offended anyone, i did not mean to.
The answer is quite simple - if a bishop sins during a sermon e.g. by spreading a heresy, you can do several things:
1) Talk to him after the sermon, and bring the point up, and ask a few questions; it could be that he let a word slip, and didn't realised he had erred.
2) If that fails, talk to another member of the clergy, a priest or a bishop and ask them about it, and leave it in their hands.
3) Or you could even talk to the Pope about the matter, and if it is genuinely a heresy then the rest is up to the Holy Synod.
We must respect the priesthood of God, which is a holy calling - but dogma must be orthodox, and any deviations must be dealt with.
We must respect the priesthood of God, which is a holy calling - but dogma must be orthodox, and any deviations must be dealt with.
pray for me
joe
That is perfectly fine, but then you say that the Bishop we are talking about is GAY, that changes EVERYTHING... he now becomes a sinner, and not to be looked up too like you would to a normal Bishop, honestly, i would disrespect that bishop, you can't have a "holy" person like a Bishop be gay...... That is just a terrible example, and shows how corrupt that Church is (what ever it happens to be, it is anglican, right?)
We must respect the priesthood of God, which is a holy calling - but dogma must be orthodox, and any deviations must be dealt with.
pray for me
joe
That is perfectly fine, but then you say that the Bishop we are talking about is GAY, that changes EVERYTHING... he now becomes a sinner, and not to be looked up too like you would to a normal Bishop, honestly, i would disrespect that bishop, you can't have a "holy" person like a Bishop be gay...... That is just a terrible example, and shows how corrupt that Church is (what ever it happens to be, it is anglican, right?)
But practicing homosexuality is a sin, and so is stealing, murder, bearing false witness or lying. So why does homosexuality make u disrespect a bishop, and not the fact that he's also bearing false witness against someone - for example, not have the same effect on you???
For me, what I lose respect for, is not that he's sinned.. Not at all. But the fact that he's ADAMENT in it.. justifying it... proving that what he's doing is right, and convincing others that its OK. Whether it be for lying, stealing, or practicing homosexuality. That's what bothers me.
Being a homosexual bishop is of course an abomination, and thus can we really consider that Bishop (imagine he was a gay Coptic bishop) him of being of he priesthood?
We must not forget that the sins of the priest do NOT affect his authority (providing he was ordained lawfully) in administering the Holy Sacraments: "Because of my own sins, and the abomination of my heart, deprive not your people of the grace of your Holy Spirit" (St. Basil's Liturgy, inaudible prayer before the Confession). The sins of the priesthood do not affect their ability to administer the Sacraments - but would a gay bishop be truly of the priesthood?
All priests are sinners, that doesn't make them not of the priesthood.
However, this bishop openly admits to being homosexual AND that he's fine with it, that's where the problem lies... He, as a teacher and example to the believer, is teaching them that homosexuality is not something one has to repent from... So he's endangering them, and for this reason, the fact that he made his own laws that are contrary to those of God, he isn't really of the priesthood... I'm pretty sure that one of the criteria of becoming a priest is to agree with and teach the word of God, however being sinless is not
I imagine if a God fearing man was homosexual than he'd probably have mentioned it to his FoC, for he'd think it's a sin that he has to get rid of. Also, I don't know exactly how priests are ordained (as in protocol), but they don't go ask for it themselves (Pope Kyrillos said once: Don't ask for priesthood, but when it comes to you, don't refuse it) (something along those lines...) they're nominated by others...
I wasn't making any conclusions as to the validity of the ordination of priests, but logic says that if a priest OPENLY is a homosexual (without wanting to repent), thus agreeing with it, thus teaching others that it's fine to be a homosexual, then he wouldn't be ordained in the first place
WHO ARE YOU TO DAMN A PERSON?!!! he's does something wrong, then khalas what are you gonna do?! he's not even in your church, why are you going in such a depth in a topic of such a stupid essence! that does not even concern you! if you have a problem with him being gay... good for you, he's not Coptic... when a Coptic bishop is gay then we'll talk about it... but it will not happen, because he'd be excommunicated right away, for he would be setting a bad example for the COPTIC ORTHODOX CHURCH CLERGY!!!
Bishoy, calm down man. We're simply discussing the connection between the sins of a member of the clergy and the validity of their ordination. Nothing out of line.
Bishoy, U need to go back and read the entire topic. U can't just jump in like that... Its not about the catholic church. Its about our Church. Read the thread.
Yeah superman, I don't think it was damning anyone, we are all sinners... We were just discussing what to do in a situation like that... And no, he's not coptic orthodox, thank God, but that doesn't mean one can't discuss the way things are handled, for maybe a lesson can be learned, even for us
So the current question is, what happens if a Coptic Orthodox priest, prior to his ordination is an active homosexual, and when chosen to be ordained a priest DOES NOT confess to being a homosexual, and then causes the laity to stumble? Is his ordination valid? Is he "of the priesthood"?
[quote author=coptic pharaoh link=topic=6927.msg92852#msg92852 date=1216190251] the first few lines are very deep, and i really thnk the devil is playing with your mind, God is there, and He will punish them IN DUE TIME.... mybe He won't punish them now, but Judgement day is coming, maybe He is giving them a chance to repent... GOD CARES.... if He didn't care, do you really think that , GOD, the ALMIGHTY, would have went through ALL THE TROUBLE of Salvation, and coming down to Earth, going up on the Cross, with the load of ALL THE SINS of the WORLD, on Him, just for fun? or just to try it out and see how it feels like? IT was because HE CARED, and STILL CARES, about US, ALL OF US..... and our Salvation.............. IF He didn't care, then why would He have bothered to get His people out of Egypt when they were enslaved? He cares, He just has His own time plans, that are not know to any man,.......
You know, we were discussing the idea of punishment in another thread. Are they related to this one? Yes. I'm sorry.
Is the devil playing with me? Yes. We often play together, until one of us gets bored.
But.. with respect to this situation in particular, it would be very important for them to be punished in a public way. Why? They did something in the hidden.. in the secret that was wrong. And it just showed that they can literally commit a crime and just by wearing their 3ema (i.e. clergy hat) they can claim immunity to even being questioned about it. 2 bishops and several monks agreed that they had lied. No one did anything. Lying is a very generous and kind word to use to describe what they did.
The Pope said that through punishment, it teaches others a lesson that no matter who u are - u must fear God in your actions that no one will escape punishment. But they have. And if they were punished, it really didn't amount to anything close to what I suffered.
far be it from me that I lose my temper over such a discussion... I am far from that!
I never said out of line! i said out of hand! when I say out of hand i mean that the question was asked, and was answered! if I say out of line, that would mean that there are thing that are said in err.
We're simply discussing the connection between the sins of a member of the clergy and the validity of their ordination.
if their ordained they are then they are ordained... if they are wicked humans, that's away from the ordination! Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them. For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple. For your obedience has become known to all. Therefore I am glad on your behalf; but I want you to be wise in what is good, and simple concerning evil. And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
We must respect the priesthood of God, which is a holy calling - but dogma must be orthodox, and any deviations must be dealt with.
pray for me
joe
That is perfectly fine, but then you say that the Bishop we are talking about is GAY, that changes EVERYTHING... he now becomes a sinner, and not to be looked up too like you would to a normal Bishop, honestly, i would disrespect that bishop, you can't have a "holy" person like a Bishop be gay...... That is just a terrible example, and shows how corrupt that Church is (what ever it happens to be, it is anglican, right?)
But practicing homosexuality is a sin, and so is stealing, murder, bearing false witness or lying. So why does homosexuality make u disrespect a bishop, and not the fact that he's also bearing false witness against someone - for example, not have the same effect on you???
For me, what I lose respect for, is not that he's sinned.. Not at all. But the fact that he's ADAMENT in it.. justifying it... proving that what he's doing is right, and convincing others that its OK. Whether it be for lying, stealing, or practicing homosexuality. That's what bothers me.
that is true, but in GOD destroyed Sodom and Gomorah because they were all homosexuals, not because they were thiefs or liars, i am sure many of them were liars and theifs too, but i GOD destroyed them because they were gay, (We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died.)1 corinthians 10:8.......
I mean in a way i think it is right and wrong. Right becuase he is gay and that is like forbidden by the church and completely disrespectful to the church. It is just not right. But in a way it may be wrong because he embarrased him in front of a lot of people and telling him to repent. I mean who is he to judge?
But in my opinion i would say it is right lol =) 8)
[quote author=SuperMAN(BAM) link=topic=6927.msg92924#msg92924 date=1216289797] this topic is getting out of hand!!!
WHO ARE YOU TO DAMN A PERSON?!!! he's does something wrong, then khalas what are you gonna do?! he's not even in your church, why are you going in such a depth in a topic of such a stupid essence! that does not even concern you! if you have a problem with him being gay... good for you, he's not Coptic... when a Coptic bishop is gay then we'll talk about it... but it will not happen, because he'd be excommunicated right away, for he would be setting a bad example for the COPTIC ORTHODOX CHURCH CLERGY!!!
Thanks SuperMAN! To the rescue again :). You r right! Thank God it is not our 'personal' concern. I mean,....those church's r the excommunicated anyway aren't they? All of these different 'denominations' we see today were formed from men excommunicated for heresy. Really, I do not even consider them people of God or followers of God. But for those who do; I find peace in knowing that HH Pope Shenouda III sent a letter to them for all of us telling them that homosexuality is WRONG!
Comments
There are a few things to consider here:
Whether you're sure that they actually did something wrong, that it wasn't a misunderstanding or so, because it seems like what you think they did wrong is a very serious matter...
If what they did was indeed so terrible as you say, you still don't know whether God is punishing them or not (maybe He's punishing them privately)... Whether they've repented and are living in regret and guilt now or not...and believe me feelings of regret and guilt can be quite a punishment on themselves...
As I said before if God would punish everyone according to their sins, none of us would be saved and if He's merciful with us then why wouldn't He be with them? And if they don't repent then... well, we all know the outcome, I think that will be punishment enough
And maybe one should wonder: Do I want justice for the sake of justice or do I want revenge?
God Bless
Please pray for me
If this wasn't in the Church, i probably couldnt care less if they were punished or not. But - in the Church - yes.. its bad.
As for my "perception" of bad or not.. well.. put it this way: The pope told the priest off (in front of everyone), but - the bishop really got away with it.
[quote author=godislove260 link=topic=6927.msg92822#msg92822 date=1216158380]
Please forgive me, maybe I replied in a bad manner, I don't want to judge you
Simply I reacted to the part where you said God was silent as if you think He should punish those people, but we're not in a position to demand punishment for anyone because we ourselves have been saved from the just punishment for our sins, which is death
God is merciful with us, more than merciful, I think we should at least WANT to be merciful, even when it's hard... I'm not claiming to be able to forgive and forget , however, I do know that this is what's expected of us as Christians, as hard as it may seem.
I don't know the details of those clergy members and what they did to you, but I'm SURE God will deal with them the RIGHT, JUST and MERCIFUL way...
But remember the verse which says (something like): Those who are merciful will be treated with mercy
God Bless
Please pray for me
By not punishing them, God is sending a clear message, to me personally, that either He doesn't care about immorality in His Chuch, nor does He care what happens to me. If they were punished, in my eyes, it would increase my faith. Seeing a bishop or priest do something immoral, is VERY disturbing.
Im in no position to condemn. Not at all. But to not see men of God being punished scares me, as - if someone did something immoral who was far from God, it wouldn't bother me because their existence is death: as being far from God is DEATH; but seeing a priest and bishop GIVE the Holy Communion whilst at the same time adament in something immoral is very disturbing. I cannot help feel that God just doesnt care.
the first few lines are very deep, and i really thnk the devil is playing with your mind, God is there, and He will punish them IN DUE TIME.... mybe He won't punish them now, but Judgement day is coming, maybe He is giving them a chance to repent... GOD CARES.... if He didn't care, do you really think that , GOD, the ALMIGHTY, would have went through ALL THE TROUBLE of Salvation, and coming down to Earth, going up on the Cross, with the load of ALL THE SINS of the WORLD, on Him, just for fun? or just to try it out and see how it feels like? IT was because HE CARED, and STILL CARES, about US, ALL OF US..... and our Salvation.............. IF He didn't care, then why would He have bothered to get His people out of Egypt when they were enslaved? He cares, He just has His own time plans, that are not know to any man,.......
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6927.msg92825#msg92825 date=1216159756]
[quote author=godislove260 link=topic=6927.msg92824#msg92824 date=1216159269]
There are a few things to consider here:
Whether you're sure that they actually did something wrong, that it wasn't a misunderstanding or so, because it seems like what you think they did wrong is a very serious matter...
If what they did was indeed so terrible as you say, you still don't know whether God is punishing them or not (maybe He's punishing them privately)... Whether they've repented and are living in regret and guilt now or not...and believe me feelings of regret and guilt can be quite a punishment on themselves...
As I said before if God would punish everyone according to their sins, none of us would be saved and if He's merciful with us then why wouldn't He be with them? And if they don't repent then... well, we all know the outcome, I think that will be punishment enough
And maybe one should wonder: Do I want justice for the sake of justice or do I want revenge?
God Bless
Please pray for me
If this wasn't in the Church, i probably couldnt care less if they were punished or not. But - in the Church - yes.. its bad.
As for my "perception" of bad or not.. well.. put it this way: The pope told the priest off (in front of everyone), but - the bishop really got away with it.
THe Bishop probably didn't get away with it that easy...... The Pope would not have "told the Bishop off" the same as a preist because, like Jesus said: "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand.
if the Pope told off the Bishop, the people might start thinking that the church is unorganised, and does not know exactly what is doing (cause the Bishop is supposed to be a Holy man, that people look up too), and the Pope also might have chosen not to "tell him off" publicaly because a Bishop should be looked up at, and not be humiliated in Public......
yet again, i wasn't there, so i probablty shouldn't be saying all of this.... please correct me if i am wrong, and sorry if i have offended anyone, i did not mean to.
1) Talk to him after the sermon, and bring the point up, and ask a few questions; it could be that he let a word slip, and didn't realised he had erred.
2) If that fails, talk to another member of the clergy, a priest or a bishop and ask them about it, and leave it in their hands.
3) Or you could even talk to the Pope about the matter, and if it is genuinely a heresy then the rest is up to the Holy Synod.
We must respect the priesthood of God, which is a holy calling - but dogma must be orthodox, and any deviations must be dealt with.
pray for me
joe
We must respect the priesthood of God, which is a holy calling - but dogma must be orthodox, and any deviations must be dealt with.
pray for me
joe
That is perfectly fine, but then you say that the Bishop we are talking about is GAY, that changes EVERYTHING... he now becomes a sinner, and not to be looked up too like you would to a normal Bishop, honestly, i would disrespect that bishop, you can't have a "holy" person like a Bishop be gay...... That is just a terrible example, and shows how corrupt that Church is (what ever it happens to be, it is anglican, right?)
[quote author=josephgabriel link=topic=6927.msg92854#msg92854 date=1216193000]
We must respect the priesthood of God, which is a holy calling - but dogma must be orthodox, and any deviations must be dealt with.
pray for me
joe
That is perfectly fine, but then you say that the Bishop we are talking about is GAY, that changes EVERYTHING... he now becomes a sinner, and not to be looked up too like you would to a normal Bishop, honestly, i would disrespect that bishop, you can't have a "holy" person like a Bishop be gay...... That is just a terrible example, and shows how corrupt that Church is (what ever it happens to be, it is anglican, right?)
But practicing homosexuality is a sin, and so is stealing, murder, bearing false witness or lying. So why does homosexuality make u disrespect a bishop, and not the fact that he's also bearing false witness against someone - for example, not have the same effect on you???
For me, what I lose respect for, is not that he's sinned.. Not at all. But the fact that he's ADAMENT in it.. justifying it... proving that what he's doing is right, and convincing others that its OK. Whether it be for lying, stealing, or practicing homosexuality. That's what bothers me.
We must not forget that the sins of the priest do NOT affect his authority (providing he was ordained lawfully) in administering the Holy Sacraments: "Because of my own sins, and the abomination of my heart, deprive not your people of the grace of your Holy Spirit" (St. Basil's Liturgy, inaudible prayer before the Confession). The sins of the priesthood do not affect their ability to administer the Sacraments - but would a gay bishop be truly of the priesthood?
pray for me
joe
However, this bishop openly admits to being homosexual AND that he's fine with it, that's where the problem lies... He, as a teacher and example to the believer, is teaching them that homosexuality is not something one has to repent from... So he's endangering them, and for this reason, the fact that he made his own laws that are contrary to those of God, he isn't really of the priesthood... I'm pretty sure that one of the criteria of becoming a priest is to agree with and teach the word of God, however being sinless is not
God Bless
Please pray for me
I wasn't making any conclusions as to the validity of the ordination of priests, but logic says that if a priest OPENLY is a homosexual (without wanting to repent), thus agreeing with it, thus teaching others that it's fine to be a homosexual, then he wouldn't be ordained in the first place
WHO ARE YOU TO DAMN A PERSON?!!! he's does something wrong, then khalas what are you gonna do?! he's not even in your church, why are you going in such a depth in a topic of such a stupid essence! that does not even concern you! if you have a problem with him being gay... good for you, he's not Coptic... when a Coptic bishop is gay then we'll talk about it... but it will not happen, because he'd be excommunicated right away, for he would be setting a bad example for the COPTIC ORTHODOX CHURCH CLERGY!!!
U need to go back and read the entire topic. U can't just jump in like that...
Its not about the catholic church. Its about our Church. Read the thread.
We were just discussing what to do in a situation like that...
And no, he's not coptic orthodox, thank God, but that doesn't mean one can't discuss the way things are handled, for maybe a lesson can be learned, even for us
God Bless
Please pray for me
the first few lines are very deep, and i really thnk the devil is playing with your mind, God is there, and He will punish them IN DUE TIME.... mybe He won't punish them now, but Judgement day is coming, maybe He is giving them a chance to repent... GOD CARES.... if He didn't care, do you really think that , GOD, the ALMIGHTY, would have went through ALL THE TROUBLE of Salvation, and coming down to Earth, going up on the Cross, with the load of ALL THE SINS of the WORLD, on Him, just for fun? or just to try it out and see how it feels like? IT was because HE CARED, and STILL CARES, about US, ALL OF US..... and our Salvation.............. IF He didn't care, then why would He have bothered to get His people out of Egypt when they were enslaved? He cares, He just has His own time plans, that are not know to any man,.......
You know, we were discussing the idea of punishment in another thread. Are they related to this one? Yes. I'm sorry.
Is the devil playing with me? Yes. We often play together, until one of us gets bored.
But.. with respect to this situation in particular, it would be very important for them to be punished in a public way. Why? They did something in the hidden.. in the secret that was wrong. And it just showed that they can literally commit a crime and just by wearing their 3ema (i.e. clergy hat) they can claim immunity to even being questioned about it. 2 bishops and several monks agreed that they had lied. No one did anything. Lying is a very generous and kind word to use to describe what they did.
The Pope said that through punishment, it teaches others a lesson that no matter who u are - u must fear God in your actions that no one will escape punishment. But they have. And if they were punished, it really didn't amount to anything close to what I suffered.
I never said out of line! i said out of hand! when I say out of hand i mean that the question was asked, and was answered! if I say out of line, that would mean that there are thing that are said in err. if their ordained they are then they are ordained... if they are wicked humans, that's away from the ordination!
Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them. For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple. For your obedience has become known to all. Therefore I am glad on your behalf; but I want you to be wise in what is good, and simple concerning evil. And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
[quote author=coptic pharaoh link=topic=6927.msg92885#msg92885 date=1216266875]
[quote author=josephgabriel link=topic=6927.msg92854#msg92854 date=1216193000]
We must respect the priesthood of God, which is a holy calling - but dogma must be orthodox, and any deviations must be dealt with.
pray for me
joe
That is perfectly fine, but then you say that the Bishop we are talking about is GAY, that changes EVERYTHING... he now becomes a sinner, and not to be looked up too like you would to a normal Bishop, honestly, i would disrespect that bishop, you can't have a "holy" person like a Bishop be gay...... That is just a terrible example, and shows how corrupt that Church is (what ever it happens to be, it is anglican, right?)
But practicing homosexuality is a sin, and so is stealing, murder, bearing false witness or lying. So why does homosexuality make u disrespect a bishop, and not the fact that he's also bearing false witness against someone - for example, not have the same effect on you???
For me, what I lose respect for, is not that he's sinned.. Not at all. But the fact that he's ADAMENT in it.. justifying it... proving that what he's doing is right, and convincing others that its OK. Whether it be for lying, stealing, or practicing homosexuality. That's what bothers me.
that is true, but in GOD destroyed Sodom and Gomorah because they were all homosexuals, not because they were thiefs or liars, i am sure many of them were liars and theifs too, but i GOD destroyed them because they were gay, (We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died.)1 corinthians 10:8.......
But in my opinion i would say it is right lol =) 8)
/
mahraeel
plz p4m sister in Christ
this topic is getting out of hand!!!
WHO ARE YOU TO DAMN A PERSON?!!! he's does something wrong, then khalas what are you gonna do?! he's not even in your church, why are you going in such a depth in a topic of such a stupid essence! that does not even concern you! if you have a problem with him being gay... good for you, he's not Coptic... when a Coptic bishop is gay then we'll talk about it... but it will not happen, because he'd be excommunicated right away, for he would be setting a bad example for the COPTIC ORTHODOX CHURCH CLERGY!!!
Thanks SuperMAN! To the rescue again :).
You r right! Thank God it is not our 'personal' concern. I mean,....those church's r the excommunicated anyway aren't they? All of these different 'denominations' we see today were formed from men excommunicated for heresy.
Really, I do not even consider them people of God or followers of God. But for those who do;
I find peace in knowing that HH Pope Shenouda III sent a letter to them for all of us telling them that homosexuality is WRONG!