yes, there are many examples of punishment for our sins on earth. A small example would be Zacharias when God made it so that he could not speak because he didnt believe that Elizabeth would bear a child.
So, this is admonition? Do u agree that also God punished David for what he had done to Uriah and his wife? He also punished Jacob for lying to his father (deceiving his father) - so he also was deceived. Do u agree that the same happened to Moses? The fact that he killed a man, God punished him by not allowing him in the promised land?
Once we get this point sorted, I need to know the following:
What happens if someone dies and is NOT punished? Apparently, such admonition is to save us from being punished eternally. Do u agree with this??
Oh no.. no one's answering. It looks like I'm gonna have to resort to talking about belly buttons again. What is with u people!? I create threads like "Triple A effect on Divine Justice", "Theosis", and no one answers. Then I create a thread on "Did adam and eve have a belly button" and then everyone jumps on.
Sorry there, but lets get one thing straight. God did not punish Moses for killing a man, it was an accident. Second was that He allowed him to enter into the promise land but that was when the time was right, not necessarily as a punishment. I also do not know if you can make such a claim that God will punish us for the same sin, unless perhaps you do not confess it. So confession is very important and it is a tool that God gave us to use so that we can be with Him. If you refuse to confess the sin than you will be punished, simple as that. It is impossible for someone NOT to get punished, believe me on this. No one is not guilty.
[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=6917.msg92604#msg92604 date=1215802102] Sorry there, but lets get one thing straight. God did not punish Moses for killing a man, it was an accident. Second was that He allowed him to enter into the promise land but that was when the time was right, not necessarily as a punishment. I also do not know if you can make such a claim that God will punish us for the same sin, unless perhaps you do not confess it. So confession is very important and it is a tool that God gave us to use so that we can be with Him. If you refuse to confess the sin than you will be punished, simple as that. It is impossible for someone NOT to get punished, believe me on this. No one is not guilty.
GB Tony
See, my old FoC was saying that because he killed a man, God did not allow him to see the promised land.
Are u sure that God allowed him to enter the promised land?? Ohh.. it was either that or the fact that he made them lost in the wilderness for 40 years. Anyway, basically, the FoC said that it was temporary punishment.
OK.. put Moses aside..
Let's look at David: God even said that he will take away his 1st born from Uriah's wife as a punishment (or something like that... perhaps the wording is wrong), and jacob: because he deceived his father, he was also deceived.
So, it seems that we get paid back for the bad things we do.
Do u agree with this?
Does God pay us back?
My FoC said that God pays us back on earth out of His Kindness so that we do not pay for it eternally.
As for confession and repentance - even. David still repented and his 1st born died, his son absalom tried to kill him, and he also died.
Well, perhaps it was a punishment from God to not allow Moses in the promised land, but it is also sufficient to say that it was not the right time. Second is that, i do believe God punishes us sometimes here on earth; after all, i did give you an example and you provided me with more. We must realize that, even if God does this punishment on earth, we can not assume that we will not be judged so we should still confess it either way. So, i am not disagreeing here, i am just saying that no matter what we must confess our sins.
What do u think about what abouna said "That admonition (punishment) from God is His mercy on us in that we pay for what we've done here, rather than in the eternal life"?
Even if we repent, we still reap what we sow.
Why am I asking all this?
If what abouna was saying is true, it means that NO ONE will get away with murder unpunished. It would mean that IF you are not punished here, then it would be worse for you: you will have your reward in the eternal life. - not just murder - but anything: LYING, BEARING FALSE WITNESS, STEALING, FORNICATIOn.. u name it, even if u repent for it, u will still reap the punishment for this.
Would u agree with any of this?? Or do u think that once u repent, that's it, u are free from any responsibility or punishment from your action??
I do not believe that this is the way God works. The Old Testament is much different form the New Testament. In the Old Testament God would reward and punish his people with things that are visible. For example he would bless them with more children or land etc. or punish them by taking things away from them or by storms and so on. But when Christ came and took flesh all of this changed. No we have a different reward and that is eternal life. I do not believe that for every mistake we do God will make sure we get a punishment for it on earth before we die. And when we confess we are no longer bound by our sin but rather we give it to Christ and he bears our suffering. God is merciful and loving and does not act as the sin police making sure we are miserable for every sin we commit. Think of all those who sin and live a very carefree life and think of those who are righteous yet have many tribulations.
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=6917.msg92609#msg92609 date=1215806211] I do not believe that this is the way God works. The Old Testament is much different form the New Testament. In the Old Testament God would reward and punish his people with things that are visible. For example he would bless them with more children or land etc. or punish them by taking things away from them or by storms and so on. But when Christ came and took flesh all of this changed. No we have a different reward and that is eternal life. I do not believe that for every mistake we do God will make sure we get a punishment for it on earth before we die. And when we confess we are no longer bound by our sin but rather we give it to Christ and he bears our suffering. God is merciful and loving and does not act as the sin police making sure we are miserable for every sin we commit. Think of all those who sin and live a very carefree life and think of those who are righteous yet have many tribulations.
I mean, what if someone does something really bad, and they get away with it? Is that fair? Surely, admonition is also to teach us a lesson.
I thought that God of the OT was the same as the NT.
i agree with you, very good point. but also o think that to some poeple, who do bad things and sin...something also happen to them as a sign from God to stop, to think, to start to be good, better...?maybe iam wrong
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6917.msg92610#msg92610 date=1215806602] I mean, what if someone does something really bad, and they get away with it? Is that fair? Surely, admonition is also to teach us a lesson. I thought that God of the OT was the same as the NT.
God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. God is Just, and so if a person who commits a sin MUST and WILL be punished in some shape or other, either in this life or the next, according to God's Just judgement. The degree, reason and severity of the punishment are in accordance with God's plan and his mercy e.g. some people are punished to wake them up, some to make them humble, others are punished so that they are saved punishment in eternity. God decides.
[quote author=josephgabriel link=topic=6917.msg92617#msg92617 date=1215809287] [quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6917.msg92610#msg92610 date=1215806602] I mean, what if someone does something really bad, and they get away with it? Is that fair? Surely, admonition is also to teach us a lesson. I thought that God of the OT was the same as the NT.
God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. God is Just, and so if a person who commits a sin MUST and WILL be punished in some shape or other, either in this life or the next, according to God's Just judgement. The degree, reason and severity of the punishment are in accordance with God's plan and his mercy e.g. some people are punished to wake them up, some to make them humble, others are punished so that they are saved punishment in eternity. God decides.
pray for me
joe
for some reason you here sound that there MUST be a punishment. but that is not a must. God, as you said and we all know is JUST....but also merciful. He is the One who says who is punished and who is not.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6917.msg92610#msg92610 date=1215806602] I mean, what if someone does something really bad, and they get away with it?
soooo.....God allows to happen. Many things of that manner happen. I don't get your point.
Is that fair?
are you kidding me vassilios, i thought you are more intelligent to use just word in such manner. but anyway i'll answer you like i always so to any one who says it....our life now is not fair..... First from God's side, be created by Him still disobeying Him. Second, even the it's towards God, it's not fair for us humans to suffer the consequence of Adam and Eve sin
Surely, admonition is also to teach us a lesson.
well yes, but that doesn't mean it always happens directly to us.
I thought that God of the OT was the same as the NT.
God is the same, and right now He is resting, is it says in the bible. But mankind are not the same. people have changed and are in fact losing God's rank in this world. So God, being merciful, doesn't let them go and try to always, as we say in many of our prayers, return the sinners.
people do horrible things all the time and get away with it and not all good people live perfect care-free lives...my point is the world is not always just but when it is all over and we stand before the judgment seat God is just. As we read in the agpeya "You do not wish the death of a sinner but rather that he may return and live..." So God is not some guy in the sky waiting for us to slip up and every time we do he comes up with a clever new way to make us regret it and suffer.
I would like to add, as far as confession, that we have to remember that during confession, our sins are transferred from our account to the Lamb's account. From there, when It is sacrificed and we partake of the Holy Communion, we are COMPLETELY ABSOLVED (note the caps, they are there for a reason) from the sins that we confessed. This means that God will not count them against us, since they were accounted for by the sacrifice.
With regards to your other question (if someone does something bad and gets away with it), how is it possible to escape from God? He may escape from the law of land, but nothing can escape God...so, if not on earth, he will be punished later.
On the notion of God 'paying us back', you make it sound as if He is trying to get even with us. Certainly not!
[quote author=josephgabriel link=topic=6917.msg92617#msg92617 date=1215809287] [quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6917.msg92610#msg92610 date=1215806602] I mean, what if someone does something really bad, and they get away with it? Is that fair? Surely, admonition is also to teach us a lesson. I thought that God of the OT was the same as the NT.
God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. God is Just, and so if a person who commits a sin MUST and WILL be punished in some shape or other, either in this life or the next, according to God's Just judgement. The degree, reason and severity of the punishment are in accordance with God's plan and his mercy e.g. some people are punished to wake them up, some to make them humble, others are punished so that they are saved punishment in eternity. God decides.
[quote author=Severus link=topic=6917.msg92620#msg92620 date=1215827328] I would like to add, as far as confession, that we have to remember that during confession, our sins are transferred from our account to the Lamb's account. From there, when It is sacrificed and we partake of the Holy Communion, we are COMPLETELY ABSOLVED (note the caps, they are there for a reason) from the sins that we confessed. This means that God will not count them against us, since they were accounted for by the sacrifice.
With regards to your other question (if someone does something bad and gets away with it), how is it possible to escape from God? He may escape from the law of land, but nothing can escape God...so, if not on earth, he will be punished later.
On the notion of God 'paying us back', you make it sound as if He is trying to get even with us. Certainly not!
OK. Let me put it to u this way: let's say (HYPOTHETICALLY SPEAKING!) someone does something BAD to u. I mean, really bad. So cruel. I mean, REALLY cruel. And let's say they are christian. OK?
Now, u may just want to beat the life out of that person - u agree? And then someone from Church, like Joe, will tell u "Oh. DOn't do that.. let God deal with him. Let God get u your revenge. Don't do anything".
So, u wait. And wait. And wait even longer... for years.. and then NOTHING HAPPENS.
THe person goes to Church as normal.. they have a great life. And then they die from illness.
Now, the fact that they died and nothing bad happened to them whilst they were alive, It makes me wonder :"I should have kicked them when I had the chance rather than listen to Joe".
Their death is not a punishment as we are all going to die. In fact, in some cases, if someone is so ill, it could be a blessing.
But what happens if they die without being punished on earth??
Surely, if God punished them on earth, it would teach us ALL a lesson: That we should fear the Lord, for He sees what we do and treats us accordingly. But when we see that God does nothing, it makes me feel angry, that He forgives someone's sins yet, yet what compensation do we get as those that suffer???
Yes, I agree that we should forgive others their sins against us, but there is no equilibrium here. I mean, surely the fact that we forgive does not mean that there is no price to pay also? Surely, the effect of our sins on others requires more than just a simple "Im sorry". There has to be some kind of punitive damage, OR punishment.
You are forgetting that God still remembers what they did...
If you mean that they confessed the sin, and so they would not get punished by God later, then at that point it is your turn to forgive just as God forgives all.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6917.msg92624#msg92624 date=1215863698] OK. Let me put it to u this way: let's say (HYPOTHETICALLY SPEAKING!) someone does something BAD to u. I mean, really bad. So cruel. I mean, REALLY cruel. And let's say they are christian. OK?
Now, u may just want to beat the life out of that person - u agree? And then someone from Church, like Joe, will tell u "Oh. DOn't do that.. let God deal with him. Let God get u your revenge. Don't do anything".
So, u wait. And wait. And wait even longer... for years.. and then NOTHING HAPPENS.
THe person goes to Church as normal.. they have a great life. And then they die from illness.
Now, the fact that they died and nothing bad happened to them whilst they were alive, It makes me wonder :"I should have kicked them when I had the chance rather than listen to Joe".
Their death is not a punishment as we are all going to die. In fact, in some cases, if someone is so ill, it could be a blessing.
But what happens if they die without being punished on earth??
Surely, if God punished them on earth, it would teach us ALL a lesson: That we should fear the Lord, for He sees what we do and treats us accordingly. But when we see that God does nothing, it makes me feel angry, that He forgives someone's sins yet, yet what compensation do we get as those that suffer???
Yes, I agree that we should forgive others their sins against us, but there is no equilibrium here. I mean, surely the fact that we forgive does not mean that there is no price to pay also? Surely, the effect of our sins on others requires more than just a simple "Im sorry". There has to be some kind of punitive damage, OR punishment.
earthly gain is different then heavnly gain. same to punishment. You, have the right to get back on that person.....but that is not a must. that is your choise. and according to that, you will be viewed differnt in God's eyes.
You said that the person died safly without anything happening to him. so....you forgiving him changed him to be a better person so why should GOD punish him???!!!
If your way is used all the time.....none of us will be in heaven or leaving safly on earth.
YOU STILL using the word punishment.......THERE IS NOOOOOOO PUNISHMENT IN HEAVEN OR in God's eyes. God is ALL-JUST & ALL-MERCIFUL....learn that, KNOW THAT, and ACT UPON IT.
OK. Let me put it to u this way: let's say (HYPOTHETICALLY SPEAKING!) someone does something BAD to u. I mean, really bad. So cruel. I mean, REALLY cruel. And let's say they are christian. OK?
Now, u may just want to beat the life out of that person - u agree? And then someone from Church, like Joe, will tell u "Oh. DOn't do that.. let God deal with him. Let God get u your revenge. Don't do anything".
So, u wait. And wait. And wait even longer... for years.. and then NOTHING HAPPENS.
THe person goes to Church as normal.. they have a great life. And then they die from illness.
Now, the fact that they died and nothing bad happened to them whilst they were alive, It makes me wonder :"I should have kicked them when I had the chance rather than listen to Joe".
Their death is not a punishment as we are all going to die. In fact, in some cases, if someone is so ill, it could be a blessing.
But what happens if they die without being punished on earth??
Surely, if God punished them on earth, it would teach us ALL a lesson: That we should fear the Lord, for He sees what we do and treats us accordingly. But when we see that God does nothing, it makes me feel angry, that He forgives someone's sins yet, yet what compensation do we get as those that suffer???
Yes, I agree that we should forgive others their sins against us, but there is no equilibrium here. I mean, surely the fact that we forgive does not mean that there is no price to pay also? Surely, the effect of our sins on others requires more than just a simple "Im sorry". There has to be some kind of punitive damage, OR punishment.
One of the main rules of humility is to judge yourself always, and to see yourself as an undeserving sinner. If someone did something really cruel to me, I pray that I would be strong enough to forgive them without wishing them any evil. It's quite easy to say you forgive someone, but to truly forgive them and forget their sins and love them and pray for them, from the heart, is extremely hard and it can't be done without God's help.. but that's what God said he'd do for us, so that's what we're called to do also. I think it's wrong to wish bad things to happen to a person who hurt you. In your post it seems you'd be not happy if that person doesn't suffer himself..., but you have to remember God is just, He doesn't need us to remind him of who deserves what punishment... And you don't know that person, how they repented, maybe they're suffering internally from guilt.. We are called to be happy for those who repent. Do you think that when St Paul went to heaven, all the christians he killed were mad??? Do you think they asked God: hey, he wasn't punished enough for what he did??? I think not, because they would all be humble, knowing that they also have received mercy and were forgiven while they were undeserving sinner.... just my thoughts, feel free to correct me..
Vas, in the end, the ultimate decision is God's, the decision to WHETHER he will punish them, WHEN he will punish them, WHO will punish them, and HOW he will punish them. All God's choices. None of your or my concern. GOD IS JUST AND SO THEREFORE ARE HIS DECISIONS. Sorted.
Does the old very well known saying or rule "What goes around, comes around" apply to us as Christians, and is it from God, or is it from men?
Does what u do to others, happen to you???
Now, look.. i got permission from the Admins to raise this subject. Its a Christian topic. OK? So, there's no need to treat me like an infidel on here. These are just questions that I would like answers to for my personal benefit, and hopefully for the benefit of others.
Dude, there is no "treating like an infidel" going on. We don't believe in karma as such, we believe that for every sin we commit and that we do not repent from, we deserve death, because the wages of sin are death. However, God is Merciful, and therefore uses punishments here on earth as a way of helping us in various ways, e.g. helping us realise our mistakes, or ridding us of further punishment in hell. Thats the easiest way I can describe it.
Does the old very well known saying or rule "What goes around, comes around" apply to us as Christians, and is it from God, or is it from men?
NO...it's from men by using the eye for an eye rule.
Does what u do to others, happen to you???
not in the same way, not as a punishment from God.
Now, look.. i got permission from the Admins to raise this subject. Its a Christian topic. OK? So, there's no need to treat me like an infidel on here. These are just questions that I would like answers to for my personal benefit, and hopefully for the benefit of others.
Well for your personal benefit.....ok, your answer is below:
[quote author=godislove260 link=topic=6917.msg92628#msg92628 date=1215872293] One of the main rules of humility is to judge yourself always, and to see yourself as an undeserving sinner. If someone did something really cruel to me, I pray that I would be strong enough to forgive them without wishing them any evil. It's quite easy to say you forgive someone, but to truly forgive them and forget their sins and love them and pray for them, from the heart, is extremely hard and it can't be done without God's help.. but that's what God said he'd do for us, so that's what we're called to do also. I think it's wrong to wish bad things to happen to a person who hurt you. In your post it seems you'd be not happy if that person doesn't suffer himself..., but you have to remember God is just, He doesn't need us to remind him of who deserves what punishment... And you don't know that person, how they repented, maybe they're suffering internally from guilt.. We are called to be happy for those who repent. Do you think that when St Paul went to heaven, all the christians he killed were mad??? Do you think they asked God: hey, he wasn't punished enough for what he did??? I think not, because they would all be humble, knowing that they also have received mercy and were forgiven while they were undeserving sinner.... just my thoughts, feel free to correct me..
[quote author=minagir link=topic=6917.msg92626#msg92626 date=1215871703] THERE IS NOOOOOOO PUNISHMENT IN HEAVEN OR in God's eyes. God is ALL-JUST & ALL-MERCIFUL....learn that, KNOW THAT, and ACT UPON IT.
[quote author=Severus link=topic=6917.msg92625#msg92625 date=1215870253] You are forgetting that God still remembers what they did...
If you mean that they confessed the sin, and so they would not get punished by God later, then at that point it is your turn to forgive just as God forgives all.
[quote author=Severus link=topic=6917.msg92620#msg92620 date=1215827328] I would like to add, as far as confession, that we have to remember that during confession, our sins are transferred from our account to the Lamb's account. From there, when It is sacrificed and we partake of the Holy Communion, we are COMPLETELY ABSOLVED (note the caps, they are there for a reason) from the sins that we confessed. This means that God will not count them against us, since they were accounted for by the sacrifice.
With regards to your other question (if someone does something bad and gets away with it), how is it possible to escape from God? He may escape from the law of land, but nothing can escape God...so, if not on earth, he will be punished later.
On the notion of God 'paying us back', you make it sound as if He is trying to get even with us. Certainly not!
[quote author=josephgabriel link=topic=6917.msg92630#msg92630 date=1215874145] Vas, in the end, the ultimate decision is God's, the decision to WHETHER he will punish them, WHEN he will punish them, WHO will punish them, and HOW he will punish them. All God's choices. None of your or my concern. GOD IS JUST AND SO THEREFORE ARE HIS DECISIONS. Sorted.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=6917.msg92618#msg92618 date=1215824125] ....our life now is not fair..... First from God's side, be created by Him still disobeying Him. Second, even the it's towards God, it's not fair for us humans to suffer the consequence of Adam and Eve sin
but you are not helping anyone else here. you're putting ideas into people's minds that might weaken their faith in GOd....
Listen to your FoC. He has explained the answer to your question perfectly.
If we are blessed we are punished for our sins on earth.
I think we get too 'full' of ourselves and think we do not deserve the 'bad things' that happen to us.
Only Jesus Christ was sinless and undeserving of being beaten and crucifyed. We should rejoice when we share in his sufferings; though i know it is not easy in this loveless world.
Can u turn the other cheek? Can u pray for your enemies; show them true godly love? Thats what we have to do. We have to. Pray to God Almighty that through His Son Jesus Christ He will teach us how.
Listen to your FoC. He has explained the answer to your question perfectly.
If we are blessed we are punished for our sins on earth.
I think we get too 'full' of ourselves and think we do not deserve the 'bad things' that happen to us.
Only Jesus Christ was sinless and undeserving of being beaten and crucifyed. We should rejoice when we share in his sufferings; though i know it is not easy in this loveless world.
Can u turn the other cheek? Can u pray for your enemies; show them true godly love? Thats what we have to do. We have to. Pray to God Almighty that through His Son Jesus Christ He will teach us how.
Elsi, But my FoC's answer seems to go against what Mina is saying.
I'm asking, not stating any facts here.
If my questions make people's faith weak.. that's silly. I'm asking a question to know what we can expect from God. From now one, if someone annoys me, i'll hit him and ask him to pray for me - and repent and confess about it. Apparently God will not venge for us.
Now, whether or not God will count the sin against you depends on whether: a. You are truly, deeply sorry and really ask God's forgiveness; and b. You vow to never (or rather, try your absolute hardest) commit the sin again.
I think God will teach u a lesson if u do something to others. I mean, let's say that someone CONTINUALLY confesses and repents the SAME sin, day after day, time after time. WHat's stopping God from teaching that person a lesson so that he doesn't continue sinning.
What I do NOT understand (and I'm posing this as a question) are the following situations:
QUESTION1: * If someone does something cruel against someone else, and he repents for it, and does the same thing again to the same person - what is his outcome before God?? QUESTION2: * The example of Jacob is ideal here to explain the next question: Jacob deceived his father Isaac,and likewise, he was also deceived (when he came to get married). Now, my sunday school teacher said this, and my FoC. Now, was Jacob treated in a way, or did this happen to him because God wished to teach him a lesson, or did God allow it so that he would be punished for what he had done to his father??? And finally, does God treat us in the same way TODAY!?? YES OR NO?
Now, Maged wishes that the topic remains focused and that there are no side conversations. My questions are clear. I'm stating my ignorance with respect to 2 issues, and stating my belief concerning one issue. Let there be no confusion.
When u respond, please state the question number to which u are responding to. So its clear. let's have NO personal attacks. Just focus on the questions.
[quote author=Severus link=topic=6917.msg92646#msg92646 date=1215889749] Now, whether or not God will count the sin against you depends on whether: a. You are truly, deeply sorry and really ask God's forgiveness; and b. You vow to never (or rather, try your absolute hardest) commit the sin again.
Wow.. so, let's say someone repents for a sin.. and they DO THE SAME sin again. WHat is their fate if they do not repent nor confess it?
Gents , please focus on the two questions below that I mentioned.
But I'd also like to throw this into the works also:
Look at the story of all the Apostles/Disciples
All who fled away from the cross or denied Christ, or who killed others and then became Christian, they all died by being killed. All except St. John who followed Christ until the Cross. Now. Is this a co-incidence, or is this punishment or admonition for their denial? St. John, by the way, lived to a ripe old age and died, as far as I know, on a beautiful area: Patmos.
What I'm asking is : those who denied Christ (from His Apostles) was their death related to their denial and running away from the cross?
Comments
GB
Tony
Hi Tony! :)
So, this is admonition? Do u agree that also God punished David for what he had done to Uriah and his wife? He also punished Jacob for lying to his father (deceiving his father) - so he also was deceived. Do u agree that the same happened to Moses? The fact that he killed a man, God punished him by not allowing him in the promised land?
Once we get this point sorted, I need to know the following:
What happens if someone dies and is NOT punished? Apparently, such admonition is to save us from being punished eternally. Do u agree with this??
What is with u people!? I create threads like "Triple A effect on Divine Justice", "Theosis", and no one answers. Then I create a thread on "Did adam and eve have a belly button" and then everyone jumps on.
This topic is serious. I really need to know.
GB
Tony
Sorry there, but lets get one thing straight. God did not punish Moses for killing a man, it was an accident. Second was that He allowed him to enter into the promise land but that was when the time was right, not necessarily as a punishment. I also do not know if you can make such a claim that God will punish us for the same sin, unless perhaps you do not confess it. So confession is very important and it is a tool that God gave us to use so that we can be with Him. If you refuse to confess the sin than you will be punished, simple as that. It is impossible for someone NOT to get punished, believe me on this. No one is not guilty.
GB
Tony
See, my old FoC was saying that because he killed a man, God did not allow him to see the promised land.
Are u sure that God allowed him to enter the promised land?? Ohh.. it was either that or the fact that he made them lost in the wilderness for 40 years. Anyway, basically, the FoC said that it was temporary punishment.
OK.. put Moses aside..
Let's look at David: God even said that he will take away his 1st born from Uriah's wife as a punishment (or something like that... perhaps the wording is wrong), and jacob: because he deceived his father, he was also deceived.
So, it seems that we get paid back for the bad things we do.
Do u agree with this?
Does God pay us back?
My FoC said that God pays us back on earth out of His Kindness so that we do not pay for it eternally.
As for confession and repentance - even. David still repented and his 1st born died, his son absalom tried to kill him, and he also died.
What do u think Tony?
GB
Tony
What do u think about what abouna said "That admonition (punishment) from God is His mercy on us in that we pay for what we've done here, rather than in the eternal life"?
Even if we repent, we still reap what we sow.
Why am I asking all this?
If what abouna was saying is true, it means that NO ONE will get away with murder unpunished. It would mean that IF you are not punished here, then it would be worse for you: you will have your reward in the eternal life. - not just murder - but anything: LYING, BEARING FALSE WITNESS, STEALING, FORNICATIOn.. u name it, even if u repent for it, u will still reap the punishment for this.
Would u agree with any of this?? Or do u think that once u repent, that's it, u are free from any responsibility or punishment from your action??
I do not believe that this is the way God works. The Old Testament is much different form the New Testament. In the Old Testament God would reward and punish his people with things that are visible. For example he would bless them with more children or land etc. or punish them by taking things away from them or by storms and so on. But when Christ came and took flesh all of this changed. No we have a different reward and that is eternal life. I do not believe that for every mistake we do God will make sure we get a punishment for it on earth before we die. And when we confess we are no longer bound by our sin but rather we give it to Christ and he bears our suffering. God is merciful and loving and does not act as the sin police making sure we are miserable for every sin we commit. Think of all those who sin and live a very carefree life and think of those who are righteous yet have many tribulations.
I mean, what if someone does something really bad, and they get away with it? Is that fair?
Surely, admonition is also to teach us a lesson.
I thought that God of the OT was the same as the NT.
I mean, what if someone does something really bad, and they get away with it? Is that fair?
Surely, admonition is also to teach us a lesson.
I thought that God of the OT was the same as the NT.
God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. God is Just, and so if a person who commits a sin MUST and WILL be punished in some shape or other, either in this life or the next, according to God's Just judgement. The degree, reason and severity of the punishment are in accordance with God's plan and his mercy e.g. some people are punished to wake them up, some to make them humble, others are punished so that they are saved punishment in eternity. God decides.
pray for me
joe
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6917.msg92610#msg92610 date=1215806602]
I mean, what if someone does something really bad, and they get away with it? Is that fair?
Surely, admonition is also to teach us a lesson.
I thought that God of the OT was the same as the NT.
God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. God is Just, and so if a person who commits a sin MUST and WILL be punished in some shape or other, either in this life or the next, according to God's Just judgement. The degree, reason and severity of the punishment are in accordance with God's plan and his mercy e.g. some people are punished to wake them up, some to make them humble, others are punished so that they are saved punishment in eternity. God decides.
pray for me
joe
for some reason you here sound that there MUST be a punishment. but that is not a must. God, as you said and we all know is JUST....but also merciful. He is the One who says who is punished and who is not.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6917.msg92610#msg92610 date=1215806602]
I mean, what if someone does something really bad, and they get away with it?
soooo.....God allows to happen. Many things of that manner happen. I don't get your point. are you kidding me vassilios, i thought you are more intelligent to use just word in such manner. but anyway i'll answer you like i always so to any one who says it....our life now is not fair.....
First from God's side, be created by Him still disobeying Him.
Second, even the it's towards God, it's not fair for us humans to suffer the consequence of Adam and Eve sin well yes, but that doesn't mean it always happens directly to us.
God is the same, and right now He is resting, is it says in the bible. But mankind are not the same. people have changed and are in fact losing God's rank in this world. So God, being merciful, doesn't let them go and try to always, as we say in many of our prayers, return the sinners.
With regards to your other question (if someone does something bad and gets away with it), how is it possible to escape from God? He may escape from the law of land, but nothing can escape God...so, if not on earth, he will be punished later.
On the notion of God 'paying us back', you make it sound as if He is trying to get even with us. Certainly not!
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6917.msg92610#msg92610 date=1215806602]
I mean, what if someone does something really bad, and they get away with it? Is that fair?
Surely, admonition is also to teach us a lesson.
I thought that God of the OT was the same as the NT.
God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. God is Just, and so if a person who commits a sin MUST and WILL be punished in some shape or other, either in this life or the next, according to God's Just judgement. The degree, reason and severity of the punishment are in accordance with God's plan and his mercy e.g. some people are punished to wake them up, some to make them humble, others are punished so that they are saved punishment in eternity. God decides.
pray for me
joe
Yes. That sounds good. I'm glad to hear that.
I would like to add, as far as confession, that we have to remember that during confession, our sins are transferred from our account to the Lamb's account. From there, when It is sacrificed and we partake of the Holy Communion, we are COMPLETELY ABSOLVED (note the caps, they are there for a reason) from the sins that we confessed. This means that God will not count them against us, since they were accounted for by the sacrifice.
With regards to your other question (if someone does something bad and gets away with it), how is it possible to escape from God? He may escape from the law of land, but nothing can escape God...so, if not on earth, he will be punished later.
On the notion of God 'paying us back', you make it sound as if He is trying to get even with us. Certainly not!
OK. Let me put it to u this way: let's say (HYPOTHETICALLY SPEAKING!) someone does something BAD to u. I mean, really bad. So cruel. I mean, REALLY cruel. And let's say they are christian. OK?
Now, u may just want to beat the life out of that person - u agree? And then someone from Church, like Joe, will tell u "Oh. DOn't do that.. let God deal with him. Let God get u your revenge. Don't do anything".
So, u wait.
And wait.
And wait even longer... for years.. and then
NOTHING HAPPENS.
THe person goes to Church as normal.. they have a great life. And then they die from illness.
Now, the fact that they died and nothing bad happened to them whilst they were alive, It makes me wonder :"I should have kicked them when I had the chance rather than listen to Joe".
Their death is not a punishment as we are all going to die. In fact, in some cases, if someone is so ill, it could be a blessing.
But what happens if they die without being punished on earth??
Surely, if God punished them on earth, it would teach us ALL a lesson: That we should fear the Lord, for He sees what we do and treats us accordingly. But when we see that God does nothing, it makes me feel angry, that He forgives someone's sins yet, yet what compensation do we get as those that suffer???
Yes, I agree that we should forgive others their sins against us, but there is no equilibrium here. I mean, surely the fact that we forgive does not mean that there is no price to pay also? Surely, the effect of our sins on others requires more than just a simple "Im sorry". There has to be some kind of punitive damage, OR punishment.
If you mean that they confessed the sin, and so they would not get punished by God later, then at that point it is your turn to forgive just as God forgives all.
OK. Let me put it to u this way: let's say (HYPOTHETICALLY SPEAKING!) someone does something BAD to u. I mean, really bad. So cruel. I mean, REALLY cruel. And let's say they are christian. OK?
Now, u may just want to beat the life out of that person - u agree? And then someone from Church, like Joe, will tell u "Oh. DOn't do that.. let God deal with him. Let God get u your revenge. Don't do anything".
So, u wait.
And wait.
And wait even longer... for years.. and then
NOTHING HAPPENS.
THe person goes to Church as normal.. they have a great life. And then they die from illness.
Now, the fact that they died and nothing bad happened to them whilst they were alive, It makes me wonder :"I should have kicked them when I had the chance rather than listen to Joe".
Their death is not a punishment as we are all going to die. In fact, in some cases, if someone is so ill, it could be a blessing.
But what happens if they die without being punished on earth??
Surely, if God punished them on earth, it would teach us ALL a lesson: That we should fear the Lord, for He sees what we do and treats us accordingly. But when we see that God does nothing, it makes me feel angry, that He forgives someone's sins yet, yet what compensation do we get as those that suffer???
Yes, I agree that we should forgive others their sins against us, but there is no equilibrium here. I mean, surely the fact that we forgive does not mean that there is no price to pay also? Surely, the effect of our sins on others requires more than just a simple "Im sorry". There has to be some kind of punitive damage, OR punishment.
earthly gain is different then heavnly gain. same to punishment. You, have the right to get back on that person.....but that is not a must. that is your choise. and according to that, you will be viewed differnt in God's eyes.
You said that the person died safly without anything happening to him. so....you forgiving him changed him to be a better person so why should GOD punish him???!!!
If your way is used all the time.....none of us will be in heaven or leaving safly on earth.
YOU STILL using the word punishment.......THERE IS NOOOOOOO PUNISHMENT IN HEAVEN OR in God's eyes.
God is ALL-JUST & ALL-MERCIFUL....learn that, KNOW THAT, and ACT UPON IT.
OK. Let me put it to u this way: let's say (HYPOTHETICALLY SPEAKING!) someone does something BAD to u. I mean, really bad. So cruel. I mean, REALLY cruel. And let's say they are christian. OK?
Now, u may just want to beat the life out of that person - u agree? And then someone from Church, like Joe, will tell u "Oh. DOn't do that.. let God deal with him. Let God get u your revenge. Don't do anything".
So, u wait.
And wait.
And wait even longer... for years.. and then
NOTHING HAPPENS.
THe person goes to Church as normal.. they have a great life. And then they die from illness.
Now, the fact that they died and nothing bad happened to them whilst they were alive, It makes me wonder :"I should have kicked them when I had the chance rather than listen to Joe".
Their death is not a punishment as we are all going to die. In fact, in some cases, if someone is so ill, it could be a blessing.
But what happens if they die without being punished on earth??
Surely, if God punished them on earth, it would teach us ALL a lesson: That we should fear the Lord, for He sees what we do and treats us accordingly. But when we see that God does nothing, it makes me feel angry, that He forgives someone's sins yet, yet what compensation do we get as those that suffer???
Yes, I agree that we should forgive others their sins against us, but there is no equilibrium here. I mean, surely the fact that we forgive does not mean that there is no price to pay also? Surely, the effect of our sins on others requires more than just a simple "Im sorry". There has to be some kind of punitive damage, OR punishment.
One of the main rules of humility is to judge yourself always, and to see yourself as an undeserving sinner. If someone did something really cruel to me, I pray that I would be strong enough to forgive them without wishing them any evil. It's quite easy to say you forgive someone, but to truly forgive them and forget their sins and love them and pray for them, from the heart, is extremely hard and it can't be done without God's help.. but that's what God said he'd do for us, so that's what we're called to do also. I think it's wrong to wish bad things to happen to a person who hurt you.
In your post it seems you'd be not happy if that person doesn't suffer himself..., but you have to remember God is just, He doesn't need us to remind him of who deserves what punishment...
And you don't know that person, how they repented, maybe they're suffering internally from guilt..
We are called to be happy for those who repent. Do you think that when St Paul went to heaven, all the christians he killed were mad??? Do you think they asked God: hey, he wasn't punished enough for what he did??? I think not, because they would all be humble, knowing that they also have received mercy and were forgiven while they were undeserving sinner.... just my thoughts, feel free to correct me..
God Bless
Please pray for me
pray for me
joe
Does the old very well known saying or rule "What goes around, comes around" apply to us as Christians, and is it from God, or is it from men?
Does what u do to others, happen to you???
Now, look.. i got permission from the Admins to raise this subject. Its a Christian topic. OK? So, there's no need to treat me like an infidel on here. These are just questions that I would like answers to for my personal benefit, and hopefully for the benefit of others.
pray for me
joe
Coptic People:
Does the old very well known saying or rule "What goes around, comes around" apply to us as Christians, and is it from God, or is it from men?
NO...it's from men by using the eye for an eye rule. not in the same way, not as a punishment from God. Well for your personal benefit.....ok, your answer is below:
[quote author=godislove260 link=topic=6917.msg92628#msg92628 date=1215872293]
One of the main rules of humility is to judge yourself always, and to see yourself as an undeserving sinner. If someone did something really cruel to me, I pray that I would be strong enough to forgive them without wishing them any evil. It's quite easy to say you forgive someone, but to truly forgive them and forget their sins and love them and pray for them, from the heart, is extremely hard and it can't be done without God's help.. but that's what God said he'd do for us, so that's what we're called to do also. I think it's wrong to wish bad things to happen to a person who hurt you.
In your post it seems you'd be not happy if that person doesn't suffer himself..., but you have to remember God is just, He doesn't need us to remind him of who deserves what punishment...
And you don't know that person, how they repented, maybe they're suffering internally from guilt..
We are called to be happy for those who repent. Do you think that when St Paul went to heaven, all the christians he killed were mad??? Do you think they asked God: hey, he wasn't punished enough for what he did??? I think not, because they would all be humble, knowing that they also have received mercy and were forgiven while they were undeserving sinner.... just my thoughts, feel free to correct me..
[quote author=minagir link=topic=6917.msg92626#msg92626 date=1215871703]
THERE IS NOOOOOOO PUNISHMENT IN HEAVEN OR in God's eyes.
God is ALL-JUST & ALL-MERCIFUL....learn that, KNOW THAT, and ACT UPON IT.
[quote author=Severus link=topic=6917.msg92625#msg92625 date=1215870253]
You are forgetting that God still remembers what they did...
If you mean that they confessed the sin, and so they would not get punished by God later, then at that point it is your turn to forgive just as God forgives all.
[quote author=Severus link=topic=6917.msg92620#msg92620 date=1215827328]
I would like to add, as far as confession, that we have to remember that during confession, our sins are transferred from our account to the Lamb's account. From there, when It is sacrificed and we partake of the Holy Communion, we are COMPLETELY ABSOLVED (note the caps, they are there for a reason) from the sins that we confessed. This means that God will not count them against us, since they were accounted for by the sacrifice.
With regards to your other question (if someone does something bad and gets away with it), how is it possible to escape from God? He may escape from the law of land, but nothing can escape God...so, if not on earth, he will be punished later.
On the notion of God 'paying us back', you make it sound as if He is trying to get even with us. Certainly not!
[quote author=josephgabriel link=topic=6917.msg92630#msg92630 date=1215874145]
Vas, in the end, the ultimate decision is God's, the decision to WHETHER he will punish them, WHEN he will punish them, WHO will punish them, and HOW he will punish them. All God's choices. None of your or my concern. GOD IS JUST AND SO THEREFORE ARE HIS DECISIONS. Sorted.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=6917.msg92618#msg92618 date=1215824125]
....our life now is not fair.....
First from God's side, be created by Him still disobeying Him.
Second, even the it's towards God, it's not fair for us humans to suffer the consequence of Adam and Eve sin
but you are not helping anyone else here. you're putting ideas into people's minds that might weaken their faith in GOd....
Listen to your FoC. He has explained the answer to your question perfectly.
If we are blessed we are punished for our sins on earth.
I think we get too 'full' of ourselves and think we do not deserve the 'bad things' that happen to us.
Only Jesus Christ was sinless and undeserving of being beaten and crucifyed. We should rejoice when we share in his sufferings; though i know it is not easy in this loveless world.
Can u turn the other cheek? Can u pray for your enemies; show them true godly love? Thats what we have to do. We have to. Pray to God Almighty that through His Son Jesus Christ He will teach us how.
QT_,
Listen to your FoC. He has explained the answer to your question perfectly.
If we are blessed we are punished for our sins on earth.
I think we get too 'full' of ourselves and think we do not deserve the 'bad things' that happen to us.
Only Jesus Christ was sinless and undeserving of being beaten and crucifyed. We should rejoice when we share in his sufferings; though i know it is not easy in this loveless world.
Can u turn the other cheek? Can u pray for your enemies; show them true godly love? Thats what we have to do. We have to. Pray to God Almighty that through His Son Jesus Christ He will teach us how.
Elsi,
But my FoC's answer seems to go against what Mina is saying.
I'm asking, not stating any facts here.
If my questions make people's faith weak.. that's silly. I'm asking a question to know what we can expect from God. From now one, if someone annoys me, i'll hit him and ask him to pray for me - and repent and confess about it. Apparently God will not venge for us.
a. You are truly, deeply sorry and really ask God's forgiveness; and
b. You vow to never (or rather, try your absolute hardest) commit the sin again.
THis is what I think or believe:
I think God will teach u a lesson if u do something to others. I mean, let's say that someone CONTINUALLY confesses and repents the SAME sin, day after day, time after time. WHat's stopping God from teaching that person a lesson so that he doesn't continue sinning.
What I do NOT understand (and I'm posing this as a question) are the following situations:
QUESTION1: * If someone does something cruel against someone else, and he repents for it, and does the same thing again to the same person - what is his outcome before God??
QUESTION2: * The example of Jacob is ideal here to explain the next question: Jacob deceived his father Isaac,and likewise, he was also deceived (when he came to get married). Now, my sunday school teacher said this, and my FoC. Now, was Jacob treated in a way, or did this happen to him because God wished to teach him a lesson, or did God allow it so that he would be punished for what he had done to his father??? And finally, does God treat us in the same way TODAY!?? YES OR NO?
Now, Maged wishes that the topic remains focused and that there are no side conversations. My questions are clear. I'm stating my ignorance with respect to 2 issues, and stating my belief concerning one issue. Let there be no confusion.
When u respond, please state the question number to which u are responding to. So its clear. let's have NO personal attacks. Just focus on the questions.
Now, whether or not God will count the sin against you depends on whether:
a. You are truly, deeply sorry and really ask God's forgiveness; and
b. You vow to never (or rather, try your absolute hardest) commit the sin again.
Wow.. so, let's say someone repents for a sin.. and they DO THE SAME sin again.
WHat is their fate if they do not repent nor confess it?
But I'd also like to throw this into the works also:
Look at the story of all the Apostles/Disciples
All who fled away from the cross or denied Christ, or who killed others and then became Christian, they all died by being killed. All except St. John who followed Christ until the Cross. Now. Is this a co-incidence, or is this punishment or admonition for their denial? St. John, by the way, lived to a ripe old age and died, as far as I know, on a beautiful area: Patmos.
What I'm asking is : those who denied Christ (from His Apostles) was their death related to their denial and running away from the cross?