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Women in Ministry
Was doing some research on Coptic Christianity. I am an ordained elder (presbyteros) in a local Christian Church, and involved in ministry of the Word/teaching/sacramental ministry/prison chaplaincy and doing workshops on Church Leadership. Being a woman called by the Lord Jesus Christ to ministry brings with it challenges. Would like to better understand the role of women in church leadership in other Christian traditions.
Comments
Hopefully this thread might be profitable in answering your questions.
http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=132
In addition, I think this quote by Pope Shenouda is very beneficial.
“We felt a great need of the work of women and we wanted women to have a certain order and service in the church, not only to have girls as Sunday School teachers who give a part of their time whenever they can, but we want girls and women to give their whole life to God and serve the Church.”
You have to remember that it is insignificant in what way we serve god. The important fact is that we dedicate our whole lives to god in every thing we do. In the Coptic Orthodox Church women are not permitted to be clergy members for various reasons. This is the COPTIC view. It is not something that will change, nor should it be changed. We have our traditions and our reasons for them. You must remember the purpose of any service is to offer reverence to god. The means by which means the reverence is delivered is irrelevant. In hindsight of this, one shouldn’t resist the fact that women are not permitted to hold positions of clergy. These positions are reserved strictly for men in the Coptic Church. Anybody who contests to the Orthodox law, which is the unchanged practices of the apostles, is nothing more than a heretic. Little by little we are conforming to more “politically correct” views. The outcome of this, as is seen, is lesbians who perform gay marriages. That is the effect of conforming to “modern” times is visibly a corruption and mockery of our sacred religion.
The Coptic orthodox religion is, as I have previously mentioned, a religion that follows the sound teachings of the apostles without any alterations or amending. Women are MORE THAN ENCOURAGED, to serve god and dedicate their lives to god. However, they are to do this without performing heresy.
God Bless
-Mark
I have often wondered why the Lord called me to ministry? I use to wrestle with the call, but have learned to walk in the call as I serve God.
In His Service,
Elder Kelley
"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do
for His good pleasure." Phil. 2:13
. In the Coptic Orthodox Church women are not permitted to be clergy members for various reasons. This is the COPTIC view. It is not something that will change, nor should it be changed. We have our traditions and our reasons for them. You must remember the purpose of any service is to offer reverence to god. The means by which means the reverence is delivered is irrelevant. In hindsight of this, one shouldn’t resist the fact that women are not permitted to hold positions of clergy. These positions are reserved strictly for men in the Coptic Church. Anybody who contests to the Orthodox law, which is the unchanged practices of the apostles, is nothing more than a heretic. Little by little we are conforming to more “politically correct” views. The outcome of this, as is seen, is lesbians who perform gay marriages. That is the effect of conforming to “modern” times is visibly a corruption and mockery of our sacred religion.
The Coptic orthodox religion is, as I have previously mentioned, a religion that follows the sound teachings of the apostles without any alterations or amending. Women are MORE THAN ENCOURAGED, to serve god and dedicate their lives to god. However, they are to do this without performing heresy.
Dear All:
The peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
I’ld like to comment and add to Mark’s post in reply to HKelly.
Our Coptic Orthodox Church traditions are not simply traditions made by regular men. In fact it is totally based on the teachings of the Bible, the apostolic Tradition and the Dogma (the theological teaching and laws set to the early church by the disciples of our Lord Jesus Christ, who in fact received those teaching from Him personally). The role of women in our Coptic Orthodox Church, draws its tradition from the teaching of St. Paul himself.
The conduct of Christian women is clearly stated in many places in the New Testament, few examples are: St. Paul’s First Epistle to the Corinthians verses 1 thru 16 “1Cor:1-16”: Here the first thing St. Paul commands them to imitate him as he also imitate Christ, that means that he teaches them what he have received from The Lord Jesus Christ Himself. Also, he asks them to remember and keep all those traditions that he delivered to them. And he goes on explaining the conduct of women in church and in the family. Like covering the head when praying (this is because women hair is her honor, crown and glory {1Cor11:15}, and during prayer, women cover their own crowns of glory to glorify God so all the Glory in church or during prayer is given only to God).
Also, in 1 Cor 14: 34-40, St. Paul clearly states that women are to stay silent during the Liturgy service in the Church. That is a clear order that women cannot be ordained as clergy as Mark has mentioned in his post. Because women must stay silent in Church. While women are permitted to teach (prophesy) at church “1Cor11:5” in other events such as Sunday school, meetings, bible studies … etc, but not during Liturgy and the offering of the Church Sacraments. Yet they are indeed equal to men, and both man and woman are dependent on each other in the journey of life in Christ. And a woman’s glory is from her man as the glory of a man is from God “1Cor11:11-12. The fact is that God created man in His image, then woman was created from man. She was not created from his head to be superior over him, nor she was created from his leg to be inferior to him, but she was created from his side to be equal to him and stand by his side as a partner for life.
Yet, because God is not the author of confusion but of peace (1Cor14:33) He set order in the church as also in marriage. And as the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man (1Cor11:3) Man is head of Woman in Holy Marriage as Christ is the head of the Church. The Lord Jesus sacrificed Himself for the church, therefore a man would do the same to his wife with true Christian love and passion. (Ephesians 5:22-33)
Also in 1 Timothy 3: 2-13, St. Paul clearly state that all the clergy order of the church (meaning the orders of bishops, priests & deacons) must be men who enjoy a righteous spirit in Christ and had good testimony from their congregation. Even in the end of this chapter St. Paul in a fatherly manor, order St. Timothy to GUARD these teachings that he is giving him and be aware of the people who stray from that faith.
Therefore, in order for the church to be organized and function in an orderly way to deliver the spiritual message to the people, women must not be ordained as priests, bishops or deacons who serve at the Altar, nor they can deliver or concentrate any of the Sacraments. For how would a woman deliver the Holy Sacraments to a man who is her head, can a priest or a bishop deliver a Sacrament to Christ?? There is no offence to women in this subject, as all women where glorigied in the person of the Holy Theotokos St. Mary the mother of our Lord Jesus Christ. What more glory for women or even the entire mankind can we ask for, that the Lord has incarnated in the flesh from a human to bless our nature in Him?
Pray for me
Ibrahim
Thanks for your scholarly approach to my question. I felt the following information regarding headship might bring further clarity to a subject that has frequently been misunderstood in the Church.
Head (kephale)
The importance of understanding the meaning of kephale as Paul intended it can not be underestimated. Misinterpretation of this word has led to doctrines that go far beyond the question of headship as it relates to women. In English when we think of the meaning of head we picture the physical head of a person or the person who is in charge of something like the head of a business or office–someone who has authority over something. Although these are the most common, Webster’s dictionary gives twenty-two meanings for the word head.
Paul was a scholar. He used the precise words that would give the meaning that he intended. Only if Paul intended the meaning of authority over can we support the chain-of-command structure in the church or in the home.
In Paul’s writings, the Greek word kephale, which has been translated, “head,” means “source” or “beginning.” This is significant because the people to whom Paul was writing had been influenced by the pagan idea that woman is made of a substance inferior to and different from that of the male. By the use of this word, Paul was correcting this error and confirming the Genesis creation account which indicates that the female is made of the same substance as male. Among other things, this affirms the fact that women are of equal value with men. Paul;’s use of the word kephale, taken in context, was never used to indicate “leader,” “boss,” or “authority over.”
See: Gordon D. Fee, The First Epistle to the Corinthians, 503; Alvera & Berkley Michelsen, “The Head of the Epistles,” Christianity Today 25, (1981); Eddie and Susan Hyatt, “Who’s the Boss?”
Elder Kelley
It is true that there can be several denotations for the word head. However, the information you received in the source of your argument “Gordon D. Fee, The First Epistle to the Corinthians…” is misleading and false. My assertion can be quite easily proven.
In the epistle to the Ephesians it says:
“Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church… Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.”
Let’s put the debate over the meaning of “head” aside for a moment. It says quite blatantly for wives to submit to their husbands.
According to my Merriam-Webster dictionary; the definition for submit is “to yield to governance or authority”.
Many would agree that when one begins speaking of a certain topic, they don’t randomly change topics. Likewise, I’m sure that the same pertained to Saint Paul. He tells the women to submit to their husbands, then, in the next sentence says “for the male is the head…” Now, he could mean that the male is the source or beginning, but what relevance does this have to his initial statement? I think that we can agree the two sentences were related; especially since he used a transition word between the two sentences “for the husband…” This is no coincidence.
By seeing the word used in context, rather than merely taking it and seeing what other definitions it could have, helps us to understand the true and intended meaning of the word. Saint Paul obviously meant to use this word to show a role of leadership and authority.
Saint Paul says “Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.”
The word “subject” is a very strong word. It isn’t merely a word to show roles; it shows authority and control.
However, a true Christian male would knows (if you read on further) that they are not to abuse this authority that they have; because “husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church.”
So, I’m sad that you were subjected to this book, because it has misinformed you. These words, in this context, do indicate leadership, boss, and authority over.
God Bless
-Mark
God's blessing be with you as well.
I am so sorry you thought I was being subjected to questionable material. I found the reading interesting and worthy of further dialogue. However, I value your input, and thank you for the time you took to address what you obviously feel is a challenging subject.
When I think that in Christ Jesus the curse was removed, I rejoice, for not only were men delivered from the curse, but females as well. I have to admit I am always challenged by why God made the decision to call me into ministry. I remember telling Him in prayer "don't you know that I am a female, and that the men in the church do not feel that woman have a role in this type of ministry." However, the Lord Jesus did not listen too carefully, but opened the door and told me to "walk through it." I have had to trust God all the way, and He has not failed me.
Being in a position of leadership is not easy for neither males or females, though in Christ Jesus gender is not the issue, but covenant is. As I pray and seek the leading of the Holy Spirit, He guides me into all truth. Something very interesting that I have experienced in my walk with the Lord, is that He is creative, all knowing, all powerful and full of tender mercies and grace. I rely heavily on these qualities in my Heavenly Father to keep me, to sustain me, to enable to do all that He has called me to, and to walk in love with all. Only by His grace.
I recognize that woman serving beyond children's sunday school or working with other women and/or like minister is the limits that many want to place on a woman's role. However, in the final analysis, God is the final authority.
Now in relationship to headship - I absolutely agree with you, for the husband serves a leadership role in the marriage, and to her husband and her husband alone is she subject. A woman is not in subjection to any man, for it would mean that she has to follow the leading of any man who would seek to exert his influence, and I don't believe that every husband would be in agreement with that, for then he would not be the head of his home alone.
Mark, though you and I may see these issue differently, one thing we do have in common is our love for Christ and our desire to serve as the Lord has called us to do. I pray God's blessings be with you in all your endeavors, and again thank you for your precious input.
Elder Helen Kelley