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shoulda been posted last week but oh well...

gregorytheSinnergregorytheSinner
edited December 1969 in Coptic Orthodox Church
i was wondering if you guys could help me with something, that's sorta been bugging me:

1. why do we still hold Pontious Pilate guilty for Christ's Crucifixion
was crucified under pontious pilate - The Creed  when
a. the man washed his hands from Christ's blood, similarily to the way a priest washes his hands before continuing the liturgy and says he's not responsible for whoever partakes unworthily
b. the pharasies were the ones who pursued Christ's death, unrelentingly

2. why is Judas Iscariout's suicide looked down on, while Samsons' suicide was portrayed as heroic by this i mean
a. both man sinned gravely, both clearly repeneted, and both ended up taking their own lives ?

Comments

  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=gregorytheSinner link=topic=6523.msg86276#msg86276 date=1209339497]
    i was wondering if you guys could help me with something, that's sorta been bugging me:

    1. why do we still hold Pontious Pilate guilty for Christ's Crucifixion
    was crucified under pontious pilate - The Creed  when
    a. the man washed his hands from Christ's blood, similarily to the way a priest washes his hands before continuing the liturgy and says he's not responsible for whoever partakes unworthily

    b. the pharasies were the ones who pursued Christ's death, unrelentingly


    he had the power to stop this or to atleast speak with Jesus about it. instead, he washed his hand of the sin and put it on the jews. but it doesn't work that way. when we go to heaven, God wont ask you why didnt you do that good deed and He'll accept an answer like "because i told someone else!!!" also he didnt believe in Jesus even thoo, as i think, that his wife did.


    2. why is Judas Iscariout's suicide looked down on, while Samsons' suicide was portrayed as heroic by this i mean
    a. both man sinned gravely, both clearly repeneted, and both ended up taking their own lives ?

    first, you cant consider Samson's death as suicidal. it says:

    Judges 16
    Then Samson prayed to the Lord, "O Sovereign Lord, remember me. O God, please strengthen me just once more, and let me with one blow get revenge on the Philistines for my two eyes." 29 Then Samson reached toward the two central pillars on which the temple stood. Bracing himself against them, his right hand on the one and his left hand on the other, 30 Samson said, "Let me die with the Philistines!" Then he pushed with all his might, and down came the temple on the rulers and all the people in it. Thus he killed many more when he died than while he lived. 31 Then his brothers and his father's whole family went down to get him. They brought him back and buried him between Zorah and Eshtaol in the tomb of Manoah his father. He had led Israel twenty years.

    he was captured and all he did is get out of that captivity, in the same time kept the name of God, through keeping the jews the strongest, alive by destroying the enemy. also Samson prayed for this strength that he had lost by disobaying to come back to him once more. So if God didnt approve this, where would of he got the power to do this?!!!.

    now with Judas, there are a lot of prophcies about him and what he did. even thoo he batrayed Jesus, he could of repented and came back to him. As Peter who then became the head brother of the twelve. but he didnt and commited suicide. that is a greive sin in itself to the point that we, as coptic orthodox christians, do not pray on suicide related deaths.
  • SaintaMaria05SaintaMaria05
    Adding to what mina said:

    1. Why do we still hold Pontius Pilate guilty for Christ's Crucifixion
    Pontius Pilate is a powerful man in a position of great authority. His authority is valuable to the Jews because they want to put Jesus to death, and they don’t have the authority to do it themselves.  He believed, deep within, that Jesus was innocent of the charges set against Him by the Jews. However the charges made to Christ by the Jews threaten Pilate’s Job "We found this fellow perverting the[a] nation, and forbidding to pay taxes to Caesar, saying that He Himself is Christ, a King. (Luke 23)" If he refused to gave them Jesus then it will imply that he is betraying Rome. So although he had great Authority to stop the crucifixion of Christ, He feared for his Job and position and let Christ the Innocent to die.

    2. Pilate washed his hands from Christ's blood, similarly to the way a priest washes his hands before continuing the liturgy and says he's not responsible for whoever partakes unworthil. That is different in the following point:
    a. Pilate had a chance to save Christ and not order his crucifixion
    Meanwhile when a priest washes his hand is a symbol for internal purification. Hands mean action; therefore we look for purity of actions.

    3 the Pharisees were the ones who pursued Christ's death, unrelentingly.
    That is true the Pharisees and the leaders of the Jews; however, they did not have authority to crucify Christ without the permission of roman governor, which then was Pilate pantious. This is why he is guilty of it.

    plz pray for me
  • Unknown
    Thank you both minagir and SaintaMaria05 your answers were very useful.

    Thank you too gregorytheSinner for asking this, but where is it stated that Judas clearly repented?
    If he really did he could never decide to end his own life plus the Lord would have accepted his repentance. Jesus asked the Father to forgive His scoffers and His crucifiers "for they know not what they do". Those of them who later believed and repented were thus granted His forgiveness.

    GBU
  • gregorytheSinnergregorytheSinner
    well as we all know, Judas after handing in Christ, went to the Pharasies, and threw the bag of silver and asked to free him, for he was an innocent man.
    I mean what other reason, (other than repentance) would lead him to demand such a thing?
  • bayonnecoptbayonnecopt
    In the creed when it is mentioned was crucified under Pontius Pilate it does not mean he agreed to the act or it was at his command. Instead it means he was the Roman Ruler of the Judean Province at the time, meaning more he was crucified under the rule of Pontius Pilate.
    Idk from the other posts in this thread it seems as tho the washing of the hands is taken very little, almost comparable to todays "shrug of the shoulder" however it is more serious than that. When he washed his hands he infront of God (whatever he believed was God) cleansed himself infront of the people saying that this act does not belong to me it rather belongs to you. And you must understand the power of the mob before you can judge pilot so harshly. Pilate was a smart man, he was not someone that the romans took off the streets and made a governer, governers were the children of the roman elite and therefore recived much schooling and education before assuming a government position. He understood what would happen if he did not comply with the jewish leaders, either they would uprise again, causing him death by rome for not being able to rule his provience, or the matter would be taken to the next higher up who would immediatley issue the crucifiction. At this time the Romans passed out crucifitions like nothing, it was the way to die so to speak any execution, similar only to the guillotine during the time of the French revolution so to speak. Pilate washed his hands of the act, a ceremonial tradition that we must hold dear because it was important in the history of this time.
    Btw many of the church fathers in their writing also say good things about Pilate so we really shouldnt jump the gun about his actions. The most popular belief i have personally heard, again i say this is only herseay because i never got it from a truly authoritative source was that he commited suicide after, some church fathers also say he was a saint, some said he was martyered so its not an easy situation nor a simpilistic question or answer when it comes to Pontius Pilate.

    Mina excellent point about samson, that he ASKED god for the strength to end his life the way he did. excellent!

    Now gregory, i understand your logic for that act, but there is a difference between repentance and realization, realization of the sin is actually only the first step in true repentance, for us to say that judas repented would mean that he would have had to ask the one he wronged for forgiveness. He instead commited the worst sin as the bible says, which is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit the only sin that can not be forgiven becasue after you commit suicide you have ended your time on earth and there is no way for you to gain that repentence you can only wait for the Lord to Judge. There is no doubt that he did realize his sin...but repent he definatley did not.

    -mina

  • LifeinChristLifeinChrist
    I asked abouna. He said that Pilate's sin was not crucifying Christ, that was not Pilate, his sin was being a coward.
  • elsi70x7elsi70x7
    I have always wondered about Judas and his 'suicide'??! Something just alway's seemed 'fishy' about it. During the Holy Lent Fast, I saw that some scriptures say he committed suicide by hanging and others say that he fell and died as his entrails where slit open on the land he bought out of the money he got for betraying Christ!
    I think his entrails where slit open on the ground and he died horribly and to cover it up it was made to look like a suicide like so many murders and deaths still today are made to look like suicide!!!
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