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Pacifism
Pacifism: is it Christian or personal or absolutely pseudochristian?
It seems based on fictitious ideas of what it means to:
- love your neighbour
- to forgive your neighbour
- the corporate will versus the individual will
It also insults:
- the Old Testament
- Any Law in the history of time
- the duty and the dignity of those of our courageous troups
I can go on forever. It just puzzles me why such a great man, such as the Bishop of Rome, seems to be railing about this.
It seems based on fictitious ideas of what it means to:
- love your neighbour
- to forgive your neighbour
- the corporate will versus the individual will
It also insults:
- the Old Testament
- Any Law in the history of time
- the duty and the dignity of those of our courageous troups
I can go on forever. It just puzzles me why such a great man, such as the Bishop of Rome, seems to be railing about this.
Comments
& I do believe that my Christian beliefs lead me to this...
The courageous troops you speak of hurt people to protect people... hmm... ?
I don't understand why people can't see as clear as I can the WRONGNESS of war? What is it in the end? A fight for power? Money? Land? Even defence? Even if its defence - still wrong. Did Jesus kill all those who were trying to kill Him? no.
I know what you're going to say, "there is no greater love than to give ones life for his friend" (or however it goes). What good is your life to ANYONE if you're not around anymore? My belief is this - You don't give your life by dying for someone else, but by living for them.
Why have war when we can have peace ?
+God Bless.
So, we have gotten to the stage where we see that love is not pretending a problem does not exist. Let me go a bit further to say that it means thinking the best of a person. Some people smile when they see how corrupt Arab politics is, because it supports their belief (however true) that Islam is morally and politically inferior and bankrupt. That is not love. It is something like when you read the paper on the corruption, and when there is a glimmer of hope, you smile then. That is love; wanting the best from the bad. But it still admits the bad in complete honesty.
Let's move on. Forgiveness, too, is to be considered with love. When we forgive ourselves, it does not mean we desire that we escape punishment. Christianity is filled with examples of saints who confessed their sins, and surrendered themselves, even to be punished by death.
St. Moses the black is one such example. He knew that those he was repentant, that he should be killed by the sword, for his life of violence. It was impressed on him by his Christianity. He quoted "those who live by the sword die by the sword". This is a New Testament saying, which goes to show that Christ believed that sin will always be worthy of death.
"Thou shalt not kill" is some translations correctly rendered "Thou shalt not murder". When Christ quotes that commandment in the synoptic Gospels, He always uses the Greek word murder. All killing is not murder any more than all eating is not gluttony.
Not Christ, nor Apostle, nor Great Christian Father ever thought that the death penalty was not Christian. To say so is to say that the very core of the Law of Moses, and the Moral Law of the Gentiles were fraudalent.
That is a great error, I believe.
Sister, I think you are confusing what love means. Love is not liking people. We often think that you either Love-Like-Apathetic-Dislike-Hate someone. This is not right. You can dislike someone and love them at the same time. Can you think of an example? How about the person you see in the mirror everyday. When you sin, do you think you really "like" yourself? But I am sure you still would not wish yourself dead, or wish harm to yourself. So love is not an emotion. Love is wanting the best of someone. In that way, God is the personification of love. He hates sin so much, that He send truth and grace so that we can be freed from this disgraceful and wretched condition. He did not accept that we remain in this pitiful state; no. He did not change His mind about sin=death. If He did, that would not be love, that kind of action would not be worthy of the name. It would be allowing this malice to remain living in us for eternity- that's disgusting. Death was necessary; death is still required. Death is repentance. Christ died for us, but we share in this death by putting to death in a putative way, our primitive selves. That is love; it is not making problems less of an issue, it is dealing with it.
So, we have gotten to the stage where we see that love is not pretending a problem does not exist. Let me go a bit further to say that it means thinking the best of a person. Some people smile when they see how corrupt Arab politics is, because it supports their belief (however true) that Islam is morally and politically inferior and bankrupt. That is not love. It is something like when you read the paper on the corruption, and when there is a glimmer of hope, you smile then. That is love; wanting the best from the bad. But it still admits the bad in complete honesty.
Let's move on. Forgiveness, too, is to be considered with love. When we forgive ourselves, it does not mean we desire that we escape punishment. Christianity is filled with examples of saints who confessed their sins, and surrendered themselves, even to be punished by death.
St. Moses the black is one such example. He knew that those he was repentant, that he should be killed by the sword, for his life of violence. It was impressed on him by his Christianity. He quoted "those who live by the sword die by the sword". This is a New Testament saying, which goes to show that Christ believed that sin will always be worthy of death.
What does that have to do with anything?
[quote author=clay link=topic=6500.msg85992#msg85992 date=1208447126]
"Thou shalt not kill" is some translations correctly rendered "Thou shalt not murder". When Christ quotes that commandment in the synoptic Gospels, He always uses the Greek word murder. All killing is not murder any more than all eating is not gluttony.
Can you please explain this further? Not sure I understand...
[quote author=clay link=topic=6500.msg85992#msg85992 date=1208447126]
Not Christ, nor Apostle, nor Great Christian Father ever thought that the death penalty was not Christian. To say so is to say that the very core of the Law of Moses, and the Moral Law of the Gentiles were fraudalent.
A lot of the Law of Moses was REPLACED by the 'Law of Christ'...
and i had a diferent question.. if in the Bible it sias DO Not Kill than why were such great Saints such as St.George, St. Mina, Abu Skhiron el Kaliny and others in the Army?
[quote author=clay link=topic=6500.msg85992#msg85992 date=1208447126]
Sister, I think you are confusing what love means. Love is not liking people. We often think that you either Love-Like-Apathetic-Dislike-Hate someone. This is not right. You can dislike someone and love them at the same time. Can you think of an example? How about the person you see in the mirror everyday. When you sin, do you think you really "like" yourself? But I am sure you still would not wish yourself dead, or wish harm to yourself. So love is not an emotion. Love is wanting the best of someone. In that way, God is the personification of love. He hates sin so much, that He send truth and grace so that we can be freed from this disgraceful and wretched condition. He did not accept that we remain in this pitiful state; no. He did not change His mind about sin=death. If He did, that would not be love, that kind of action would not be worthy of the name. It would be allowing this malice to remain living in us for eternity- that's disgusting. Death was necessary; death is still required. Death is repentance. Christ died for us, but we share in this death by putting to death in a putative way, our primitive selves. That is love; it is not making problems less of an issue, it is dealing with it.
So, we have gotten to the stage where we see that love is not pretending a problem does not exist. Let me go a bit further to say that it means thinking the best of a person. Some people smile when they see how corrupt Arab politics is, because it supports their belief (however true) that Islam is morally and politically inferior and bankrupt. That is not love. It is something like when you read the paper on the corruption, and when there is a glimmer of hope, you smile then. That is love; wanting the best from the bad. But it still admits the bad in complete honesty.
Let's move on. Forgiveness, too, is to be considered with love. When we forgive ourselves, it does not mean we desire that we escape punishment. Christianity is filled with examples of saints who confessed their sins, and surrendered themselves, even to be punished by death.
St. Moses the black is one such example. He knew that those he was repentant, that he should be killed by the sword, for his life of violence. It was impressed on him by his Christianity. He quoted "those who live by the sword die by the sword". This is a New Testament saying, which goes to show that Christ believed that sin will always be worthy of death.
What does that have to do with anything?
This is to clarify the meaning of "loving our enemies", and "forgiveness"- which are the reasons many Christian Pacificists use in their arguments; and I think that it is in their conception of what Christian love and Christian forgiveness is that puts them into the wrong.
If it is not your idea about love and forgiveness, then what is it?
Sorry if that's not what you meant... But if not, I truly fail to understand till now. How does this go against anything I said?
Love is the basis of my belief... I so don't get this.
Is there a misunderstanding? Is there something really obvious in this that I'm not seeing?
Please explain further. Why exactly do your comments support war?
Perhaps, my error would be that I have not defined pacifism. Pacifism is opposition to all violence- without distinction. When I say violence, I do not mean we should accept fighting among egos, bullying, and the like; I mean controlled-reacting with courage and discernment, which sometimes means a violent act is necessary. The Psalter, King David, had faith and yet he knew that he had to *respond* to Goliath and other Palestinians with war.
War is sometimes unavoidable. It was unavoidable for Israel, after their allegiance with the Gideon's to fight the Amonites. It was their duty- it would be scandalous to let the treaty be of no effect.
Today, we still have treaties. We still have duties. We still have evil to oppose, that will not be opposed unless we fight it courageously.
The soldiers who came back from Vietnam received such a deplorable reception when they came back- they fought for our country! I think we should support their courage, and conviction to align their will with the country. But of course, if it is not God's will, and He makes tells one individually, then it would be him that is guilty of fighting against the will of God. But that is a different scenerio. We should not all be Rehabs (the woman who accommodated the spies of Israel in Jericho), and commit treachery, unless it is from the fear of God.
I'm afraid the courage you speak of sounds more like pride... About the treaties between countries, that is a political matter. Yes, once a country is part of a treaty it is not proper to ignore this.
I'm against the very root of war - Is there ever a war that doesn't have evil at its start? If there are any examples you can think of, please enlighten me... because I cannot. Now if this evil was dealt with at it's root, without the punishment of an entire country, wouldn't that resolve the issue?
Do you think World War II would have happened if Hitler's evil was discovered and removed? I don't mean to take away from the honour of our ANZACS in the Vietnamese war, but umm... they were conscripted- they did not exactly march out in courage, or perhaps they did- I don't know, but the point is they had no choice...
& That perhaps leads me to respect (or pity, not sure) them more than if they had gone willingly. Does God want His people to hurt and kill each other? :-\
"Not Christ, nor Apostle, nor Great Christian Father ever thought that the death penalty was not Christian. To say so is to say that the very core of the Law of Moses, and the Moral Law of the Gentiles were fraudalent"
Christ set us two fundamental laws by which His Followers should live by
1.To Love the Lord your God with all thy heart, soul and mind
2.To Love thy neighbour as thyself
At the basis of Christian beliefs is Love the Love of God which made God choose to come down and die on our behalf although we were sinners and deserved the eternal death penalty...... whoever said that christianity or our Lord Jesus was for the death penalty?....Our Lord stood up for the adulterous woman when they were going to stone her and said to them whoever is without sin to cast the first stone upon her, only God who is perfect and without sin has the authority to punish a sinner or a criminal with death.
But yet He chose to carry our sins on the cross and never did Christ say anything about killing murderers for their evil acts or stoning adulterous women which still occurs in islamic countries.......
I love a specific story which reminds of what christ would of done in the same situation.....although the catholic church is full of past corruption I love the image of Pope John Paul talking to and forgiving the terrrorist who tried to shoot him.....Love never fails ......
Because King David was a man of war and had shed blood, God refused that he build Him the temple and the building of the temple was left to his son King solomon.
War is unavoidable in this world we live in....but as Christians worshipping the King of Peace we shouldn't encourage war between people which involves the death of innocent people....we should act in wisdom and love and be that light shining on the hilltop for the rest of the world to see
There is a clear difference between someone saying to oneself "i deserve the death penalty for my sins", God saying that whoever killed by the sword shall die by the sword, and a group of outsiders judging someone and killing them for their wrong doings........
May i ask you a question if you use that verse to support the death penalty ...the death penalty is murder in itself taking someone elses life.....so doesn't that mean the people who killed the killer also deserve death?
Pease Pray 4 me
Ahh I feel so much better. I feel like I had that all in there and I was trying to let it all out, but it just wasn't coming.
Clay, can you see where I'm comming from?
You miss the point entirely, I am afraid. I am not talking about initiating war, but our duty to fight evil when innocent victims suffer. And murder, frankly, deserves death.
Christ instituted the Death Penalty in Israel, and became a victim of it. He punished the Old Israel for their murder of the Son of God by the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. He ensured the blasphemer was killed instantly when they kept a portion of their income and deceived St. Cephas/Peter. We have great saints, like St. George and St. Mina, and the Saint of the Two Swords etc. We have valiant saints, who did their duty to their country.
Love denounces evil- where depravity is, we must give them the Gospel, and if not, and poor victims are suffering, frankly, they should die. The genocide in Sudan is disgusting. We should intervene with our troops, and stop this madness, and kill these war criminals. Of course, you would try to make peace conferences, but if this fails, we should intervene- there are innocent lives at stake.
When Christ forgave the adulterer from her crime, she did not attack the death penalty, but the way hypocrites condemned others. This is entirely different than the criminal justice system, where lay citizens have little role.
When the Roman Pontiff forgave the terrorist, this was to remove from him the guilt, not the consequences. Sin=death. Repentance is our death; those who don't repent, like me, deserve to die by the powers of the earth given by God to execute judgement.
It is not a reference to mortality...
It is NOT OUR PLACE to remove evil by means of murder.. what if this human being (yes a human being, not evil, but imperfect in nature like every other one of us) should He be given more time and his life be taken by God and not human, would repent and be worthy of life with Christ?
As long as God gives one time, God gives hope. One more day, another chance... How could we, mere human beings, no better than those we accuse of evil, take away a life? Take away hope that has been granted by God?
When you say that those that do evil should die, it means every single one of us should die... And the death you refer to is inevetible for every human being who ever lived and will live. Does this mean that God is punishing us for our sins through our mortality? If so, wouldn't we all be worthy of eternal life since we pay the debt of our sins? Obviously not.
So what punishment is there in killing someone? They will inevitably die from the world, all that you do is take away any hope of good that is left in them.
Sin=ETERNAL DEATH, ie, eternal life in HELL !!!!!
It is not a reference to mortality...
It is NOT OUR PLACE to remove evil by means of murder.. what if this human being (yes a human being, not evil, but imperfect in nature like every other one of us) should He be given more time and his life be taken by God and not human, would repent and be worthy of life with Christ?
As long as God gives one time, God gives hope. One more day, another chance... How could we, mere human beings, no better than those we accuse of evil, take away a life? Take away hope that has been granted by God?
When you say that those that do evil should die, it means every single one of us should die... And the death you refer to is inevetible for every human being who ever lived and will live. Does this mean that God is punishing us for our sins through our mortality? If so, wouldn't we all be worthy of eternal life since we pay the debt of our sins? Obviously not.
So what punishment is there in killing someone? They will inevitably die from the world, all that you do is take away any hope of good that is left in them.
If this was the case then God would not have instituted the death penalty in the first place They had equal opportunities in the ancient times to repent and make sin offerings. But adulterers were killed almost at the scene.
Did you know that someone who killed in self-defence, if killed when running to the temple's horns, the murderer would have no sin.
God does not belittle evil crime; I think we are being played by a passive and relativist society.
If this was the case then God would not have instituted the death penalty in the first place They had equal opportunities in the ancient times to repent and make sin offerings. But adulterers were killed almost at the scene.
Did you know that someone who killed in self-defence, if killed when running to the temple's horns, the murderer would have no sin.
God does not belittle evil crime; I think we are being played by a passive and relativist society.
Things in the old testament are not as they are today, that's clear.
A parent does not treat a five year old child like they'd treat a teenager, or like they'd treat their children when they have become adults. Likewise, Gods treatment of His children has changed, as we developed generation after generation.
A young child does the right thing because otherwise they'd be punished. God warned His people that if they sinned they'd be punished - which is why many refrained.
However, an adult does the right thing because they are now able to make informed decisions because of the knowledge they have aquired throughout their life. Likewise, today, we do good out of love, not fear of punishment. We have learned from those who came before us and have a deeper understanding of the world around us. We are able to obey Christ, even though we won't be killed in the act. We obey Him because we love Him, and we know that His commandments will bring forth blessings and joy. These are things we know because of what we have seen in the past... we have grown.
Jesus plainly said that sinners have no right to cast the first (or any) stone. Who are we to judge AND punish others for their shortcommings when we have huge planks in our own eyes. Well, I don't know about you, but I know I do.
Ahh does this seem like a never ending argument or what?
If you don't at least see where I'm comming from by now, I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I know for a fact that many Christians agree with your point of view, at least to some extent, but I cannot see my own beliefs heading anywhere near that direction. You havn't really said anything that's made me rethink it either. Perhaps you're right, I don't know... But if you are, I most definitly cannot see why.
+God Bless
I believe that pacifism is pseudochristian; an attempt to harmonise the gospel of peace, with what a secular society believes about peace. In that regards I think it does injustice to the Gospel- that says Truth matters, and we should be ready to lay our lives up for it. It is peace with God; and a corollary enmity with the world.
For those who followed the argument, his response could be found here:
http://stbishoy.org.au/modules/wordpress/?p=48#comments
I certainly agree, both in the reasons that violence is necessary sometimes but still needs to be controlled (things I have argued), and the complex questions he leaves are indeed difficult to answer.
I just wonder, however, about the "death penalty". Despite the kind of arrogance you might feel in my persistence of the topic, I am quite sympathetic about not killing; but, for instance, I cannot imagine letting that guy who rapped and had incestuous relations with his daughter in Astria, and kept her captive for more than two decades not having the death penalty. I know this is judging, but this is so wicked. But perhaps I will be shamed when I find out that he was abused as a child, has psychic disorder that could not be treated because of a poor and neglecting mental health etc.
However, I can see why personally people would oppose the death penalty, but for the Roman Pontiff (who I admire, don't get me wrong), can sell it as a Christian ideal.
Our Lord was not a doormat in any form. He was stern at times and He did show anger. He made His points quite eloquently utilizing different techniques.
From the side of parables to the extreme of whipping and overturning the moneychangers' tables in the temple. When He was questioned by Herod and Pilate, He selectively answered and was not fully silent.
We are called upon to be just as well as merciful, loving and peaceful, contractors for the Divine Will. We are not meant to be slaves.
I am not going to get into the precepts of what constitutes a "Just War", I will leave that to the writings of St. Augustine of Hippo.
I appreciate Clay's outline as being quite thorough and complete--TO BE EXACT, QUITE EXCELLENT.
The problem with misinformed youth, who take their secular thoughts and try to imprint them on the Church's teachings are incorrect. They think they know because feelings within them give precedence and correctness to these thoughts.
Our God, the Almighty, gives us too many examples in the Old and New Testament in terms of standing up for one's rights and be willing to stand for them. Shall I recount Stephen and his exposition in the Acts of the Apostles, or Paul and his deliberations with the governor and his appeal to Caesar. He (St. Paul and St. Stephen) had opportunity to back down to save his life but he went into the full respect for the defense of His Master and his beliefs. Shall I recount the mention of the "war" between Satan and Michael as they are recounted in the Old Testament (Book of Ezekial) and in the New Testament (Revelation).
Sometimes it is necessary to meet force, subjugate it, fence it in, or even to eliminate.
The perils of silence and acquiescence are exemplified in the cowardice of Lord Chamberlain, the Prime Minister of England, as he delivered: Poland and Czechoslovakia into the hands of Hitler prior to World War II. How much would have been saved in all regards if someone had stood up for humanity and priniciple? How much is humanity paying for such a cowardly deed even till this day?
Our Lord is strong in His Words and Actions! He is Mighty in Battle! He takes up the cause of the weak and downtrodden.
Here are some points: Should a women in battered situations not seek justice, should slavery be carried out without liberation (e.g., the American Civil War and th Emancipation Proclamation), should bullies not be addressed and held accountable?
OUR LORD IS NOT A DOORMAT, NOR DID HE PREACH TO US TO BE DOORMATS.
I see your point, and sadly we live in a world were those that preach radical forgiveness and peace are the hated, nd labeled as pacifists and those that preach revengeful justice are venerated, what differentiates a Christian from a muslim, hindu or a jew........they all believe in a powerful God or gods, which is/are revengeful, just and powerful........
We as Christians also believe that God is Great, Powerful and Just but what differentiates us, is above all we believe that God is Love, and in His Love is the greatest Power and Strength ever to witnessed or to be witnessed,
If we were to condemn the sinner and not the sin wouldn't that just make us no better than the others,
Being peaceful, loving and silent is not doormat...In the eyes of the world it is seen as being weak but in the eyes of God it is strength
War and the death penalty do NOT root from Christian beliefs but come from the devil himself, who roots hatred into peoples hearts and makes them kill each other......
Our Lord christ showed anger towards Sin never the Sinner, we stand for our rights but we do not fight evil with evil, those that stand for their rights by fighting evil with evil are slaves of their own egos and pride..
Christ asks us to take up our cross and follow him, not to put crosses on each others backs, nd condemn each other but to also carry each others weaknesses
I mean in the U.S they have the death penalty, but are they adressing the causes of crime noo...the death penalty has done nothing to lower crime rates, guns are still legal in the country, on top abuse issues at home and bullying aren't being addressed properly...rather all the funding goes into building larger and more secure prisons ...rather than condeming the crime itself and tackling the root of the problem they condemn the killer..killing them a most ruthless death......nd the cycle of crime and death keeps on giong around in circles just the way the devil wants it.......
May I say Christ said unless you forgive one another, how is it possible that your father in heaven will forgive you......there is no greater crime than the crime we commited against God, yet God chose to show us His Love on the cross and die for us......how does that give us any excuse to kill sinners....
At the core of the death penalty are not ideas of justice but revenge..... revenge which doesn't allow any form of forgiveness to take place
I recall the Love of one of our Great fathers Saint John the Short when a group of monks asked him if he was scared from the persecution of the romans, he answered them saying he was scared, they asked him how is it you are scared, when christ is with us....he said I'm not scared of the sword they will kill me with, but i am scared that they go to hell because of my death.......what power, what amazing love a love that even cares for the eternity of those who want to kill him.
In colorado, last year when a shooting took place at a church from a young man named, which resulted in the death of two girls, just days after the shootings students and leaders shouted i forgive you mathew, and the parents also offered their forgiveness.....is that plain pacifism...or is it pure undefiled christianity fulfilling the command we pray everyday to forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors....
Mother Teresa has a beautiful saying one that cannot be ignored in the day and age we live in "Love me when I least deserve it because that is when I most need It"
Justice and Forgiveness both are good but which one will get you into heaven?
I'm not saying not to condemn evil, I'm just saying don't condemn the sinner and don't fight evil with a worse evil...
pacificist want to avoid evil totally....whatever you think of them in the end, they are harmless to society and nothing they say or do harms the world we live in...if society was a more pacifist society the world we live in would be alot more peaceful.
Compare Mother Teresa who took on Christian ideas of Love literally to George W bush who thinks he is bringing justice and democracy to the world......
Forgive me and please pray for me
However, I must clear few things up. Can you please see my second post and tell me what you don't agree about with my definition of love and forgiveness?
I do agree that "war and the death penalty" is the root of the devil, in so far as much that the devil had inspired the guilty party to sin. To administer justice by killing evil persons that are a danger to society or world peace is not evil, but can be argued to be in essence the greatest good that the Government does.
To say that participating in any war or death penalty is always evil would be to implicate God in the Old Testament as insisting Israel do evil. He made them fight the first war as a nation. His law that was essential for the Jews to understand God had the death penalty. God does not cahnge.
The thing that has is that we no longer live in a Theocentric society. We also live in a time of grace where the fruits of forgiveness can be lived also on Earth. Thus, I believe Christians who are pacifists have some grounds. But all that means is that some crime, for instance, the ones that does not affect others could receive lighter sentences.
You say you love peace, and I am sure you do. But there are evil people, who insist on doing evil, and refuse grace, and there are others who are dying, suffering from disease, missing a wife or a husband or a son, because of it. Sometimes for peace to prevail, evil peace-haters need to be silenced- if not by love towards them, then love towards society- by killing them.
To say that participating in any war or death penalty is always evil would be to implicate
You say you love peace, and I am sure you do. But there are evil people, who insist on doing evil, and refuse grace, and there are others who are dying, suffering from disease, missing a wife or a husband or a son, because of it. Sometimes for peace to prevail, evil peace-haters need to be silenced- if not by love towards them, then love towards society- by killing them.
And who are you, or me, or anybody to draw the line and make that decision?! God is the only just judge.....
God does not forbid judging, but judging with hypocrisy.
Time is NOT ours to take away. Personally, even if I was given the authority (as unlikely as that is...), I would not take anyone's chances away, but simply confine them to a circumstance, such as prison, where they cannot inflict evil upon others. That's the role of a peacemaker, to make peace, not take away life from those who make wrong decisions.
Hence, I think there is a case where absolute certainty is reasonable. There are crimes with many many witnesses, or those who self-confessed, or those who were video taped. The criteria just needs to be changed- which is what Abouna was saying- that "we would oppose the death penalty as it is practiced in modern western societies".
But, I think that the judicial system in the West is much more relaxed and have greater accuracy than countries that routinely use the death penalty.