I would like to forward an apology for my remarks about the stupidest skit I have seen, a deplorable behavior that I am asked to condone, and the fact that there was no humor in blaspheming the House of God.
I offer my apologize to the Aussies with no humor and no sense of their heritage and their Faith in God.
I did not mean for it to be personal on this level. I hope they can forgive me.
I offer a suggestion, next time: use the main altar. There is more space there for such ridiculous and offensive conduct.
Why not during the Liturgy, it will give more dramatic effect? Better yet, you should raise that skit at the Cannes Film Festival?
I am deeply sorry that the cadets in the skit turned out the way they did.
It's easy to type all of this sitting behind a keyboard, isn't it? You speak of respecting God's House yet you disrespect God's Children. What is more holy, the Church, or those who inhabit the Church? I agree that it wasn't a very good thing to do in Church, but your attitude and hateful remarks really hurt my heart. How can we hope for unity with other churches and other religions when on a "holy" website we are so hateful to one another?
I will pose another question, since you bring up the issue of unity. How can we be taken seriously as an Apostolic and Orthodox Church when we present the portal of science fiction in the inner sanctum; in the Holy of Holies?
Your rhetorical entrance of emotion is inconsistent with your emotion concerning the House of God.
Nay, I do not contradict by my own writing, since I do not have a pseudonym for online forums, but I go by my real name. I do not agree with the videos. I too do not think they were funny or very tasteful, and indeed if I were in a position to pass judgement or if I were an Abouna at this church I would have taken issue with it. But I am not, and so I shall hold my tongue. If a non-believer were to stumble upon this YouTube video, I doubt they would draw a connection to the official Coptic Orthodox Church from it. But if a non-believer were to stumble upon http://www.copticchurch.net/ and be led to Tasbeha.org and this topic (and many others), and see the hatred flowing between members, they would leave and never come back. Once again, I ask you, what is more important, honouring the Church, or those who inhabit the Church?
My dear Michael, I use a pseudonym, because I know the realities of the internet. In real life, and beyond the divide of the electronic medium, I would have arisen from my seat and carried the same words. I am known for that type of character and response.
You give too much credit to westerners and their ability to discern. Let me give you a western impression for a friend, to whom I sent a link to this stupid skit. I don't think you would have liked their words or their thoughts. The question that was reflected back to me was: "this stuff goes on in your church?" I think that is sufficient.
So let's go on with the discussion: "what is the big deal with selling animals in the Temple?" "why did Our Lord feel a necessity to purge the House of His Father from thieves and moneychangers?"
I would think that a non-believer who did not find a response to this posting or the one about homosexuality would be led to think that this is the norm, and would not be an attraction for his thirst for the Orthodox Church.
He would say, I would think, 'this is a joke'.
Michael, my dear friend, and brother and Christ, your argument does not hold. Do not let the humanism heresy enter into trying to bring credibility to any charitable act towards this stupid and demented skit.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=6443.msg134615#msg134615 date=1301456242] My dear Michael, I use a pseudonym, because I know the realities of the internet. In real life, and beyond the divide of the electronic medium, I would have arisen from my seat and carried the same words. I am known for that type of character and response.
I urge you then to record yourself doing so and post it to this website for all to see. If you have no problem looking into a camera, revealing your identity, and saying the exact same things you posted (even reading them aloud), then I will be satisfied that you do not hide behind a pseudonym to remain anonymous.
You give too much credit to westerners and their ability to discern. Let me give you a western impression for a friend, to whom I sent a link to this stupid skit. I don't think you would have liked their words or their thoughts. The question that was reflected back to me was: "this stuff goes on in your church?" I think that is sufficient.
Indeed, I never once said that this is acceptable or that it should remain. I ask you to send your remarks to the same western friend and ask him if he believes this is appropriate for a Church website.
So let's go on with the discussion: "what is the big deal with selling animals in the Temple?" "why did Our Lord feel a necessity to purge the House of His Father from thieves and moneychangers?"
You are not in the same position as our Lord Jesus Christ. He was angry, and did not sin, as He taught us. Can you say the same for your own words?
I would think that a non-believer who did not find a response to this posting or the one about homosexuality would be led to think that this is the norm, and would not be an attraction for his thirst for the Orthodox Church.
He would say, I would think, 'this is a joke'.
Once again, I agree that a post indicating that this might not be an appropriate video was very much required. However, the issue arises in the manner with which we speak to one another. No one here is above anyone else. We are all equals (with the exception of Father Peter) looking for God. An excellent example of standing up against something incorrect while remaining humbly respectful can be found at the same homosexuality thread posted at CopticHymns.net: http://www.coptichymns.net/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-9186-p-71434.html#71434
Michael, my dear friend, and brother and Christ, your argument does not hold. Do not let the humanism heresy enter into trying to bring credibility to any charitable act towards this stupid and demented skit.
My argument? I have no argument. It is not an argument that we ought to respect one another. It is a fact, and not even one of Christianity, but a fact of being created in the image of God. I fail to see any credibility or relation to your last sentence...
Thank you Michael for proving I am a coward. What if I am so poor as not to be able to afford a recording device with which to post on this thread to satisfy your need for evaluating my consistency on condemning this stupid skit? I walk 10 miles to get to the public library in order to type my replies on the public computer, because I cannot afford to put bread on my table.
Stupid is stupid. This skit is stupid and vile. It is an insult to our people and our church.
I am hoping that the constant responses will raise the ire of the admins so that the thread will be locked.
BTW, you are incorrect.
We are all equals (with the exception of Father Peter) looking for God.
We are all equal with Fr. Peter, and Fr. Peter is equal to us in the aspect of humanity and in seeking out God. Fr. Peter is a priest. We are not.
Please save the fake humility.
To make you happy, I will put it charitably: "I respectfully and humbly have to admit that this was a stupid skit." Moreover, "I would like to respectfully and humbly tell these fine young men that they profaned the House of God."
I bid you a good night Michael. I have finished my paperwork in between this very humble and respectful dialogue.
A slumber that is peaceful and bound in the safety of the Love and Mercy of the Almighty.
Last I checked, I didn't see any of our clergy dressed in filthy attire and taking the House of God into blasphemy.
Neither, and what brings any clergy into this? Why do you care what others wear? Why do you really care for? Does what you wear disrespect the house of God when you have no intention to do so? I don't see anyone who cares what anyone wears inside church, outside church or in your house. I doubt God cares either what one is wearing... God knows our intentions and what's in our hearts.
WOW, completely disagree with what you are saying here. So everyone can come church in singlets and short-shorts, so long as they don't intend to disrespect the house of God. If you wear inappropriate cloth to church then you are most certainly disrespecting the house of God, even if you don't have that intention. If God only cares about our intentions and what's in our hearts then why can't i come church in my swimmers if i just came back from the beach? So i can lie to protect someone, because at the end of the day God knows i had a good intention.
Where is the fear of God in our hearts? How can we enter the house of The Almighty not dressed appropriately. Why is it that we look impeccable when we go for a job interview, but not so much when we go to church? Do we not fear God?
I remember this bishop in egypt, he doesn't let any member of the congregation come church in any revealing cloth, even little kids. Now am sure that these little kids have no intention of disrespecting the house of God.
Last I checked, I didn't see any of our clergy dressed in filthy attire and taking the House of God into blasphemy.
Neither, and what brings any clergy into this? Why do you care what others wear? Why do you really care for? Does what you wear disrespect the house of God when you have no intention to do so? I don't see anyone who cares what anyone wears inside church, outside church or in your house. I doubt God cares either what one is wearing... God knows our intentions and what's in our hearts.
WOW, completely disagree with what you are saying here. So everyone can come church in singlets and short-shorts, so long as they don't intend to disrespect the house of God. If you wear inappropriate cloth to church then you are most certainly disrespecting the house of God, even if you don't have that intention. If God only cares about our intentions and what's in our hearts then why can't i come church in my swimmers if i just came back from the beach? So i can lie to protect someone, because at the end of the day God knows i had a good intention.
Where is the fear of God in our hearts? How can we enter the house of The Almighty not dressed appropriately. Why is it that we look impeccable when we go for a job interview, but not so much when we go to church? Do we not fear God?
I remember this bishop in egypt, he doesn't let any member of the congregation come church in any revealing cloth, even little kids. Now am sure that these little kids have no intention of disrespecting the house of God.
Last I checked, I didn't see any of our clergy dressed in filthy attire and taking the House of God into blasphemy.
Neither, and what brings any clergy into this? Why do you care what others wear? Why do you really care for? Does what you wear disrespect the house of God when you have no intention to do so? I don't see anyone who cares what anyone wears inside church, outside church or in your house. I doubt God cares either what one is wearing... God knows our intentions and what's in our hearts.
WOW, completely disagree with what you are saying here. So everyone can come church in singlets and short-shorts, so long as they don't intend to disrespect the house of God. If you wear inappropriate cloth to church then you are most certainly disrespecting the house of God, even if you don't have that intention. If God only cares about our intentions and what's in our hearts then why can't i come church in my swimmers if i just came back from the beach? So i can lie to protect someone, because at the end of the day God knows i had a good intention.
Where is the fear of God in our hearts? How can we enter the house of The Almighty not dressed appropriately. Why is it that we look impeccable when we go for a job interview, but not so much when we go to church? Do we not fear God?
I remember this bishop in egypt, he doesn't let any member of the congregation come church in any revealing cloth, even little kids. Now am sure that these little kids have no intention of disrespecting the house of God.
[quote author=Mikhail™ link=topic=6443.msg134602#msg134602 date=1301453514] Neither, and what brings any clergy into this? Why do you care what others wear? Why do you really care for? Does what you wear disrespect the house of God when you have no intention to do so? I don't see anyone who cares what anyone wears inside church, outside church or in your house. I doubt God cares either what one is wearing... God knows our intentions and what's in our hearts.
Dear Christs' servant,
If you look at what I said differently (well, in the way I was thinking :)) you'll understand...
In my paragraph above, in the first half I started off by asking why should one care what another person is wearing? I then asked "does what you wear disrespect the house of God when you have no intention to do so?" By this, I meant that if one was to wear for example a mini-skirt to church and stockings to a Sunday Liturgy many people would see this as obviously inappropriate. The girl however would not see how it is inappropriate. She will for example think that there is nothing wrong with it because she's wearing stockings, the skirt is not extremely tight, and no skin is actually showing. The only reason a person should care about this are servants, parents and the priest. And if someone does care from these people, they should take action (Maybe not abouna though, because it's a girl in this case). The girl on the other hand had NO intention to disrespect and probably thinks that maybe more or other kinds of revealing clothing is disrespectful such as a singlet or short-shorts.
This is what I meant - The person can't see how in the world it would be disrespectful. Others see it (not all). And servants that do see it should take action somehow.
I only gave the scenario above because I did see a girl wearing just that last week. Sure it looked very pretty on her, but it was not suitable for church. When we discussed this with a friend we just said that she has NO intention to disrespect the church and it would probably be blamed on her upbringing and we thought the issue should be brought up from their sunday school servants somehow.
I then said that I can't see anyone who cares what one wears to church - self explanatory, I can't think of anyone who really cares. Unless someone is wearing something extremely revealing or so on.
I said that I doubt God Himself cares what one is wearing if he knows our intentions and what's in our hearts. Very true in this scenario I gave above. I'm positive Abouna couldn't and didn't do much about it because there are so many things to take in to consideration like if the girl will get offended and stop coming to church. Or what if she was new to the church etc. My church is fairly large so even if Abouna didn't do anything about the way people dress in the church he does mention it in sermons and to servants and parents and so on. It is one of those things that can't be said in a direct way to individuals sometimes. Some people are so simple that they thirst for Christ and completely disregard the way they dress. People are different... I have a friend who dresses appropriately to church and everything, but she doesn't see the purpose of dressing up "extra nice" on Christmas night or Easter night.... (Here my argument is that dressing up extra nice is much more joyful than not :)). Anyways, People are different.
In reply to what you said I think it's quite clear and obvious to EVERYONE who goes to any religious building or environment they will know what is completely OUT of the question in what to wear like how you said about swimmers. No one would do this, it's very ridiculous.. I'm sorry I wasn't clear and made the assumption that everyone knows what's completely out of the question when it comes to dressing up for church, and what's not.
I can easily tell you that what this person wore (short skirt and stockings), is definitely something one may wear to work and job interview if they wished to and it wouldn't be disrespectful in any way. I mean, as long as they're sure people can't see parts of their body or is revealing so much or extremely tight that someone will stumble and sin.. But in our time and age, mini-skirts combined with stockings is very very common with the working population and there are no problems.
Yeah, many Bishops and Priests often don't let members of the congregation to have communion if they show up wearing inappropriate or revealing clothing. This is very common, and I wish it was more stricter in the churches abroad. I remember when I was probably 5 or something we were having communion and there was a younger girl infront of me and Anba Athanasius (Abouna Moussa at the time) told her in a nice way that what she is wearing is not appropriate and that it's something she would wear at the beach but not at church. He knew that it's not the girls fault but the parents and I think he talked to her in a way that she should let her parents know... I saw this a lot with Anba Athanasius at that time anyways.. ahh Things and times have certainly changed and I thank God I have been taught very well on this issue.
Mainly issues about clothing in church has a massive connection with the upbringing of a person.
I appreciate your opinions, giving good reasoning and not insulting people in any way.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=6443.msg134623#msg134623 date=1301458201] Thank you Michael for proving I am a coward. What if I am so poor as not to be able to afford a recording device with which to post on this thread to satisfy your need for evaluating my consistency on condemning this stupid skit? I walk 10 miles to get to the public library in order to type my replies on the public computer, because I cannot afford to put bread on my table.
Stupid is stupid. This skit is stupid and vile. It is an insult to our people and our church.
I am hoping that the constant responses will raise the ire of the admins so that the thread will be locked.
BTW, you are incorrect.
We are all equals (with the exception of Father Peter) looking for God.
We are all equal with Fr. Peter, and Fr. Peter is equal to us in the aspect of humanity and in seeking out God. Fr. Peter is a priest. We are not.
Please save the fake humility.
To make you happy, I will put it charitably: "I respectfully and humbly have to admit that this was a stupid skit." Moreover, "I would like to respectfully and humbly tell these fine young men that they profaned the House of God."
I bid you a good night Michael. I have finished my paperwork in between this very humble and respectful dialogue.
A slumber that is peaceful and bound in the safety of the Love and Mercy of the Almighty.
I see you have not really replied to anything I said. I do not believe your story about the library, since at the time of writing most libraries would be closed.
My remarks about equality were meant out of respect for Father Peter.
Your words have little effect on my happiness, I am merely trying to tell you that maybe you should stop being so angry and bitter to people who are just trying to praise God in their own way. Once again, I agree that the skit was not a good idea, but your disrespectfulness is uncalled for. I too hope an administrator reads through this thread and does whatever s/he thinks suitable.
And as for your comment to "save the fake humility," all I can say is may God forgive you for your unkind words.
Is that a portion of the "egyptian" interpretation of the Coptic Orthodox Church or the "coptic" interpretation of the Coptic Orthodox Church?
I'm having difficulty sorting all of this stuff in the context of "praising God".
It is clearly blasphemy.
Let's take it to another level, which you may not be considering.
Are we condoning science fiction as an explanation of our faith? You say: can't be. Yet when things are repeated enough then they become "gospel truth". Example: the whole homosexual thing. Are youth are becoming desensitized to how dangerous it is.
Attire. discussed by others also.
Some of the aspects of Science of Fiction...lead to the veil aspects in advancements of Scientology.
The Holy Altar is not a place for skits. The Holy Altar is not for joking around. The Holy Altar is not a place for shorts. The Holy Altar is not for any representations in that skit.
Any applaud or praise for what these cadets did or even giving the lol. Is to promote another production to out perform this stupid skit?
You have to learn how to be a parent and not try to be friends for the saking of letting everyting slide.
It was wrong, and it needs to be labeled and condemned as such.
I believe within several jurisdictions in Orthodoxy, and including the Coptic Church itself, they would have received heavy penalties (including excommunication).
I do not think you realize the gravity of the situation, the implications, and the precedence that it sets.
In regard to Fr. Peter: he is my equal no different than my own biological father. He, however, is accorded (rightly) the respect of fatherhood and priesthood.
Keep the priests and the priesthood out of the discussion.
There was no reason to bring his name into the discussion. He was not part of the issue. This is my purpose to saying: "fake humility".
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=6443.msg134668#msg134668 date=1301487498] Praising God? in their own way?
Is that a portion of the "egyptian" interpretation of the Coptic Orthodox Church or the "coptic" interpretation of the Coptic Orthodox Church?
I'm having difficulty sorting all of this stuff in the context of "praising God".
It is clearly blasphemy.
Let's take it to another level, which you may not be considering.
Are we condoning science fiction as an explanation of our faith? You say: can't be. Yet when things are repeated enough then they become "gospel truth". Example: the whole homosexual thing. Are youth are becoming desensitized to how dangerous it is.
Attire. discussed by others also.
Some of the aspects of Science of Fiction...lead to the veil aspects in advancements of Scientology.
The Holy Altar is not a place for skits. The Holy Altar is not for joking around. The Holy Altar is not a place for shorts. The Holy Altar is not for any representations in that skit.
Any applaud or praise for what these cadets did or even giving the lol. Is to promote another production to out perform this stupid skit?
You have to learn how to be a parent and not try to be friends for the saking of letting everyting slide.
It was wrong, and it needs to be labeled and condemned as such.
I believe within several jurisdictions in Orthodoxy, and including the Coptic Church itself, they would have received heavy penalties (including excommunication).
I do not think you realize the gravity of the situation, the implications, and the precedence that it sets.
I completely agree with you and this is the first post you wrote without saying one disrespectful thing towards anyone. They are trying to praise God through this skit, and I agree that it was not the right way to do so. Your message was never the issue here, it was your delivery.
In regard to Fr. Peter: he is my equal no different than my own biological father. He, however, is accorded (rightly) the respect of fatherhood and priesthood.
Keep the priests and the priesthood out of the discussion.
There was no reason to bring his name into the discussion. He was not part of the issue. This is my purpose to saying: "fake humility".
Father Peter is not my equal, he is one rank above me and as such I do not see us on the same level. That is how I see it, and that is what I indicated in my post. I mentioned his name in passing, in brackets, and yet you choose to ignore most of my post and focus on that one tiny name. Regardless of your purpose, it was disrespectful to say that I have "fake humility."
I still await a reply to the meat of the post you ignored.
What is there to reply to? What do you want me to say?
Reply to what?
I made my point of view quite clear. I chastized the little brats. I used my terminology and I am not retracting it.
I am not going to sing kumbaya to make them happy.
I am not going to make a video and post it, because I am not photogenic. It is not necessary to do any of the above.
Should the pro-homosexual movement by some on this site require them to make a video and recording to express their view? Should everyone do that?
Blasphemy and defilement of the Holy Altar is unacceptable in any regard. I don't care if it was done by "praising" "servants".
Stupid and wrong are stupid and wrong. I think they are old enough to understand the concept of "wrong".
These are the kind of "cool" things that is promoted among the "Protestant Sects". We are not Protestant. If they enjoy that kind of stuff then become Protestant and have all the "cool" in the world that you want.
Do not profane or insult the Holy Altar?
Michael, I have to get dressed and go to work. I am now leaving the library to walk 10 miles and get to my house so I can go to work. [That's a joke, my friend].
If I am free during the day, I will try to get to a computer to reply to your posts.
I leave you with: THE SKIT WAS STUPID and Blasphemous. In case you forgot.
Be well, and have a good day. We have sun finally to start the day today--although unpleasantly cold. Thankfully, no snow.
Once again, your post shows a blatant disrespect towards myself and those in the video. Those "little brats" might have made a mistake, but it is not our place to call them names.
This discussion has resolved to nothing. Clearly, you see no fault in your tone and attitude towards others, and it is not my place to try to change you. Before God, I have done my part in speaking out against your hostility towards others, but now I shall respectfully bow out of this thread.
Although the video and those who created certainly lacked the reverence toward the House of God, it is a reminder of our own sin. Rather, than repeatedly attack their character and persons we should acknowledge that it was improper and explain the reasons why.
How many times have we entered the House of God in sin and even had the audacity to approach His Body and Blood without repenting, fasting, or coming early? How many times have we prayed the liturgy with no focus, even joking with the person next to us at times? How many times have we not made our full effort to dress in our best attire to meet the King of kings? I am guilty of all.
These sins are no less serious than making a silly video in church. One sin is manifest, the other only God can see. This video has presented us all with an opportunity to seriously reflect on how we respect the House of God. Let us put aside in repeatedly judging others without reflecting on ourselves.
It is one thing to sin in front of God and another thing to sin in front of God and people. I have said this before, and I'll say it again, it is better for one to smoke in their room (in private, I mean), than to smoke in public and cause others to fall. This video cannot be compared to personal sins because it is a stumbling block to all the viewers. A young person might see this and think it is funny, then try to pull it off themselves. The first two pages of this thread is a good example of what I just said.
This is far more dangerous and serious than personal sins.
Thanks IloveSaintMark. Your comments make me clear that I'm glad to be Orthodox and not a protestant. It is important to resist this kind of stuff to prevent our Church being corrupted by postmodern ideals and morality. Even I thought at the beginning, "hmm this is funny". But after a while, thanks to your comments, you made me start to realise that this is not to laugh about. This is too serious.
It is one thing to sin in front of God and another thing to sin in front of God and people. I have said this before, and I'll say it again, it is better for one to smoke in their room (in private, I mean), than to smoke in public and cause others to fall. This video cannot be compared to personal sins because it is a stumbling block to all the viewers. A young person might see this and think it is funny, then try to pull it off themselves. The first two pages of this thread is a good example of what I just said.
This is far more dangerous and serious than personal sins.
But we do commit the same disrespect before people in the church all the time. Has anyone ever laughed during a liturgy? During a tasbeha? Has anyone ever walked into the altar haphazardly and without reverence? I could go on and on.
These guys recorded their lack of respect. Ours is still in front of people it just wasn't on Youtube.
I never said what they did was alright. I said it should be an opportunity to reflect on our own sins before God in His house. We have caused others to stumble by our manner in church as well. So let's not act like we haven't and seize the opportunity to remove the speck out of others' eyes when the plank is in our own.
It is simple: The video was produced incorrectly because A, B, C, and D. There is no need to call people thugs, stupid, etc.
Both example are equally incorrect: disrespecting the Church in front of people and posting silly videos on youtube, but the example you gave in your first post about approaching Holy Communion without repenting is not the same. That is a personal sin and is not as dangerous as sinning in public.
I agree that the Video has no taste and badly represent the Coptic Church, and although I can see ILSM's zeal and humor the producers of the video might not. I think its probably better to just tell them to take the video off and show them that is not proper in our Church.
I think the people in the video wanted to make something good, community wise as copts but lacked the knowledge about the Church and God which is Ok, we all have to learn sometimes.
12 priest... 7 churches, that is soo the Canadian Coptic Center (Mississauga) St. Mary & St. Athanasius diocese (yes diocese because it has power over 7 churches) God bless, Pray for me, Cyril
Funny: my personal attacks used the words--misbegotten misfits, brats, and cadets. Please do not misquote me and say I used other words. I'm a big boy. I know how to choose my words.
I never called them personally stupid or thugs. To quote Minagir, "references, references,..."
It is well within the realm of proper discussion [even polite discussion] to have used the three personal adjectives cited in the initial sentence. Misfit is not equivalent to thug, and neither is brat to stupid. Cadets is relative to their voyage into the beyond.
I did not refrain from a long laundry list of adjectives to describe the youtube video and how stupid it is. Putrid, stupid, shameful, blasphemous, etc, etc.
I think this is within the realm of condemnation of an act...a sin if you will.
Comments
I would like to forward an apology for my remarks about the stupidest skit I have seen, a deplorable behavior that I am asked to condone, and the fact that there was no humor in blaspheming the House of God.
I offer my apologize to the Aussies with no humor and no sense of their heritage and their Faith in God.
I did not mean for it to be personal on this level. I hope they can forgive me.
I offer a suggestion, next time: use the main altar. There is more space there for such ridiculous and offensive conduct.
Why not during the Liturgy, it will give more dramatic effect? Better yet, you should raise that skit at the Cannes Film Festival?
I am deeply sorry that the cadets in the skit turned out the way they did.
Forgive me.
I have sinned.
I will never do it again.
Now, can we all sing Kumbaya together. Please.
You contradict your own writing.
I will pose another question, since you bring up the issue of unity. How can we be taken seriously as an Apostolic and Orthodox Church when we present the portal of science fiction in the inner sanctum; in the Holy of Holies?
Your rhetorical entrance of emotion is inconsistent with your emotion concerning the House of God.
Reality check: IT WAS STUPID.
You give too much credit to westerners and their ability to discern. Let me give you a western impression for a friend, to whom I sent a link to this stupid skit. I don't think you would have liked their words or their thoughts. The question that was reflected back to me was: "this stuff goes on in your church?" I think that is sufficient.
So let's go on with the discussion: "what is the big deal with selling animals in the Temple?" "why did Our Lord feel a necessity to purge the House of His Father from thieves and moneychangers?"
I would think that a non-believer who did not find a response to this posting or the one about homosexuality would be led to think that this is the norm, and would not be an attraction for his thirst for the Orthodox Church.
He would say, I would think, 'this is a joke'.
Michael, my dear friend, and brother and Christ, your argument does not hold. Do not let the humanism heresy enter into trying to bring credibility to any charitable act towards this stupid and demented skit.
My dear Michael, I use a pseudonym, because I know the realities of the internet. In real life, and beyond the divide of the electronic medium, I would have arisen from my seat and carried the same words. I am known for that type of character and response.
I urge you then to record yourself doing so and post it to this website for all to see. If you have no problem looking into a camera, revealing your identity, and saying the exact same things you posted (even reading them aloud), then I will be satisfied that you do not hide behind a pseudonym to remain anonymous. Indeed, I never once said that this is acceptable or that it should remain. I ask you to send your remarks to the same western friend and ask him if he believes this is appropriate for a Church website. You are not in the same position as our Lord Jesus Christ. He was angry, and did not sin, as He taught us. Can you say the same for your own words? Once again, I agree that a post indicating that this might not be an appropriate video was very much required. However, the issue arises in the manner with which we speak to one another. No one here is above anyone else. We are all equals (with the exception of Father Peter) looking for God. An excellent example of standing up against something incorrect while remaining humbly respectful can be found at the same homosexuality thread posted at CopticHymns.net: http://www.coptichymns.net/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-9186-p-71434.html#71434 My argument? I have no argument. It is not an argument that we ought to respect one another. It is a fact, and not even one of Christianity, but a fact of being created in the image of God. I fail to see any credibility or relation to your last sentence...
Stupid is stupid. This skit is stupid and vile. It is an insult to our people and our church.
I am hoping that the constant responses will raise the ire of the admins so that the thread will be locked.
BTW, you are incorrect. We are all equal with Fr. Peter, and Fr. Peter is equal to us in the aspect of humanity and in seeking out God.
Fr. Peter is a priest. We are not.
Please save the fake humility.
To make you happy, I will put it charitably: "I respectfully and humbly have to admit that this was a stupid skit." Moreover, "I would like to respectfully and humbly tell these fine young men that they profaned the House of God."
I bid you a good night Michael. I have finished my paperwork in between this very humble and respectful dialogue.
A slumber that is peaceful and bound in the safety of the Love and Mercy of the Almighty.
WOW, completely disagree with what you are saying here. So everyone can come church in singlets and short-shorts, so long as they don't intend to disrespect the house of God. If you wear inappropriate cloth to church then you are most certainly disrespecting the house of God, even if you don't have that intention. If God only cares about our intentions and what's in our hearts then why can't i come church in my swimmers if i just came back from the beach? So i can lie to protect someone, because at the end of the day God knows i had a good intention.
Where is the fear of God in our hearts? How can we enter the house of The Almighty not dressed appropriately. Why is it that we look impeccable when we go for a job interview, but not so much when we go to church? Do we not fear God?
I remember this bishop in egypt, he doesn't let any member of the congregation come church in any revealing cloth, even little kids. Now am sure that these little kids have no intention of disrespecting the house of God.
Just my opinion
PPFM
WOW, completely disagree with what you are saying here. So everyone can come church in singlets and short-shorts, so long as they don't intend to disrespect the house of God. If you wear inappropriate cloth to church then you are most certainly disrespecting the house of God, even if you don't have that intention. If God only cares about our intentions and what's in our hearts then why can't i come church in my swimmers if i just came back from the beach? So i can lie to protect someone, because at the end of the day God knows i had a good intention.
Where is the fear of God in our hearts? How can we enter the house of The Almighty not dressed appropriately. Why is it that we look impeccable when we go for a job interview, but not so much when we go to church? Do we not fear God?
I remember this bishop in egypt, he doesn't let any member of the congregation come church in any revealing cloth, even little kids. Now am sure that these little kids have no intention of disrespecting the house of God.
Just my opinion
PPFM
WOW, completely disagree with what you are saying here. So everyone can come church in singlets and short-shorts, so long as they don't intend to disrespect the house of God. If you wear inappropriate cloth to church then you are most certainly disrespecting the house of God, even if you don't have that intention. If God only cares about our intentions and what's in our hearts then why can't i come church in my swimmers if i just came back from the beach? So i can lie to protect someone, because at the end of the day God knows i had a good intention.
Where is the fear of God in our hearts? How can we enter the house of The Almighty not dressed appropriately. Why is it that we look impeccable when we go for a job interview, but not so much when we go to church? Do we not fear God?
I remember this bishop in egypt, he doesn't let any member of the congregation come church in any revealing cloth, even little kids. Now am sure that these little kids have no intention of disrespecting the house of God.
Just my opinion
PPFM
Neither, and what brings any clergy into this? Why do you care what others wear? Why do you really care for? Does what you wear disrespect the house of God when you have no intention to do so? I don't see anyone who cares what anyone wears inside church, outside church or in your house. I doubt God cares either what one is wearing... God knows our intentions and what's in our hearts.
Dear Christs' servant,
If you look at what I said differently (well, in the way I was thinking :)) you'll understand...
In my paragraph above, in the first half I started off by asking why should one care what another person is wearing?
I then asked "does what you wear disrespect the house of God when you have no intention to do so?" By this, I meant that if one was to wear for example a mini-skirt to church and stockings to a Sunday Liturgy many people would see this as obviously inappropriate. The girl however would not see how it is inappropriate. She will for example think that there is nothing wrong with it because she's wearing stockings, the skirt is not extremely tight, and no skin is actually showing. The only reason a person should care about this are servants, parents and the priest. And if someone does care from these people, they should take action (Maybe not abouna though, because it's a girl in this case). The girl on the other hand had NO intention to disrespect and probably thinks that maybe more or other kinds of revealing clothing is disrespectful such as a singlet or short-shorts.
This is what I meant - The person can't see how in the world it would be disrespectful. Others see it (not all). And servants that do see it should take action somehow.
I only gave the scenario above because I did see a girl wearing just that last week. Sure it looked very pretty on her, but it was not suitable for church. When we discussed this with a friend we just said that she has NO intention to disrespect the church and it would probably be blamed on her upbringing and we thought the issue should be brought up from their sunday school servants somehow.
I then said that I can't see anyone who cares what one wears to church - self explanatory, I can't think of anyone who really cares. Unless someone is wearing something extremely revealing or so on.
I said that I doubt God Himself cares what one is wearing if he knows our intentions and what's in our hearts. Very true in this scenario I gave above. I'm positive Abouna couldn't and didn't do much about it because there are so many things to take in to consideration like if the girl will get offended and stop coming to church. Or what if she was new to the church etc. My church is fairly large so even if Abouna didn't do anything about the way people dress in the church he does mention it in sermons and to servants and parents and so on. It is one of those things that can't be said in a direct way to individuals sometimes.
Some people are so simple that they thirst for Christ and completely disregard the way they dress. People are different... I have a friend who dresses appropriately to church and everything, but she doesn't see the purpose of dressing up "extra nice" on Christmas night or Easter night.... (Here my argument is that dressing up extra nice is much more joyful than not :)). Anyways, People are different.
In reply to what you said I think it's quite clear and obvious to EVERYONE who goes to any religious building or environment they will know what is completely OUT of the question in what to wear like how you said about swimmers. No one would do this, it's very ridiculous.. I'm sorry I wasn't clear and made the assumption that everyone knows what's completely out of the question when it comes to dressing up for church, and what's not.
I can easily tell you that what this person wore (short skirt and stockings), is definitely something one may wear to work and job interview if they wished to and it wouldn't be disrespectful in any way. I mean, as long as they're sure people can't see parts of their body or is revealing so much or extremely tight that someone will stumble and sin.. But in our time and age, mini-skirts combined with stockings is very very common with the working population and there are no problems.
Yeah, many Bishops and Priests often don't let members of the congregation to have communion if they show up wearing inappropriate or revealing clothing. This is very common, and I wish it was more stricter in the churches abroad. I remember when I was probably 5 or something we were having communion and there was a younger girl infront of me and Anba Athanasius (Abouna Moussa at the time) told her in a nice way that what she is wearing is not appropriate and that it's something she would wear at the beach but not at church. He knew that it's not the girls fault but the parents and I think he talked to her in a way that she should let her parents know... I saw this a lot with Anba Athanasius at that time anyways.. ahh Things and times have certainly changed and I thank God I have been taught very well on this issue.
Mainly issues about clothing in church has a massive connection with the upbringing of a person.
I appreciate your opinions, giving good reasoning and not insulting people in any way.
Cheers.
Thank you Michael for proving I am a coward. What if I am so poor as not to be able to afford a recording device with which to post on this thread to satisfy your need for evaluating my consistency on condemning this stupid skit? I walk 10 miles to get to the public library in order to type my replies on the public computer, because I cannot afford to put bread on my table.
Stupid is stupid. This skit is stupid and vile. It is an insult to our people and our church.
I am hoping that the constant responses will raise the ire of the admins so that the thread will be locked.
BTW, you are incorrect. We are all equal with Fr. Peter, and Fr. Peter is equal to us in the aspect of humanity and in seeking out God.
Fr. Peter is a priest. We are not.
Please save the fake humility.
To make you happy, I will put it charitably: "I respectfully and humbly have to admit that this was a stupid skit." Moreover, "I would like to respectfully and humbly tell these fine young men that they profaned the House of God."
I bid you a good night Michael. I have finished my paperwork in between this very humble and respectful dialogue.
A slumber that is peaceful and bound in the safety of the Love and Mercy of the Almighty.
I see you have not really replied to anything I said. I do not believe your story about the library, since at the time of writing most libraries would be closed.
My remarks about equality were meant out of respect for Father Peter.
Your words have little effect on my happiness, I am merely trying to tell you that maybe you should stop being so angry and bitter to people who are just trying to praise God in their own way. Once again, I agree that the skit was not a good idea, but your disrespectfulness is uncalled for. I too hope an administrator reads through this thread and does whatever s/he thinks suitable.
And as for your comment to "save the fake humility," all I can say is may God forgive you for your unkind words.
Is that a portion of the "egyptian" interpretation of the Coptic Orthodox Church or the "coptic" interpretation of the Coptic Orthodox Church?
I'm having difficulty sorting all of this stuff in the context of "praising God".
It is clearly blasphemy.
Let's take it to another level, which you may not be considering.
Are we condoning science fiction as an explanation of our faith?
You say: can't be. Yet when things are repeated enough then they become "gospel truth". Example: the whole homosexual thing.
Are youth are becoming desensitized to how dangerous it is.
Attire.
discussed by others also.
Some of the aspects of Science of Fiction...lead to the veil aspects in advancements of Scientology.
The Holy Altar is not a place for skits. The Holy Altar is not for joking around. The Holy Altar is not a place for shorts. The Holy Altar is not for any representations in that skit.
Any applaud or praise for what these cadets did or even giving the lol. Is to promote another production to out perform this stupid skit?
You have to learn how to be a parent and not try to be friends for the saking of letting everyting slide.
It was wrong, and it needs to be labeled and condemned as such.
I believe within several jurisdictions in Orthodoxy, and including the Coptic Church itself, they would have received heavy penalties (including excommunication).
I do not think you realize the gravity of the situation, the implications, and the precedence that it sets.
Keep the priests and the priesthood out of the discussion.
There was no reason to bring his name into the discussion. He was not part of the issue.
This is my purpose to saying: "fake humility".
Praising God? in their own way?
Is that a portion of the "egyptian" interpretation of the Coptic Orthodox Church or the "coptic" interpretation of the Coptic Orthodox Church?
I'm having difficulty sorting all of this stuff in the context of "praising God".
It is clearly blasphemy.
Let's take it to another level, which you may not be considering.
Are we condoning science fiction as an explanation of our faith?
You say: can't be. Yet when things are repeated enough then they become "gospel truth". Example: the whole homosexual thing.
Are youth are becoming desensitized to how dangerous it is.
Attire.
discussed by others also.
Some of the aspects of Science of Fiction...lead to the veil aspects in advancements of Scientology.
The Holy Altar is not a place for skits. The Holy Altar is not for joking around. The Holy Altar is not a place for shorts. The Holy Altar is not for any representations in that skit.
Any applaud or praise for what these cadets did or even giving the lol. Is to promote another production to out perform this stupid skit?
You have to learn how to be a parent and not try to be friends for the saking of letting everyting slide.
It was wrong, and it needs to be labeled and condemned as such.
I believe within several jurisdictions in Orthodoxy, and including the Coptic Church itself, they would have received heavy penalties (including excommunication).
I do not think you realize the gravity of the situation, the implications, and the precedence that it sets.
I completely agree with you and this is the first post you wrote without saying one disrespectful thing towards anyone. They are trying to praise God through this skit, and I agree that it was not the right way to do so. Your message was never the issue here, it was your delivery. Father Peter is not my equal, he is one rank above me and as such I do not see us on the same level. That is how I see it, and that is what I indicated in my post. I mentioned his name in passing, in brackets, and yet you choose to ignore most of my post and focus on that one tiny name. Regardless of your purpose, it was disrespectful to say that I have "fake humility."
I still await a reply to the meat of the post you ignored.
Reply to what?
I made my point of view quite clear. I chastized the little brats. I used my terminology and I am not retracting it.
I am not going to sing kumbaya to make them happy.
I am not going to make a video and post it, because I am not photogenic. It is not necessary to do any of the above.
Should the pro-homosexual movement by some on this site require them to make a video and recording to express their view? Should everyone do that?
Blasphemy and defilement of the Holy Altar is unacceptable in any regard. I don't care if it was done by "praising" "servants".
Stupid and wrong are stupid and wrong. I think they are old enough to understand the concept of "wrong".
These are the kind of "cool" things that is promoted among the "Protestant Sects". We are not Protestant. If they enjoy that kind of stuff then become Protestant and have all the "cool" in the world that you want.
Do not profane or insult the Holy Altar?
Michael, I have to get dressed and go to work. I am now leaving the library to walk 10 miles and get to my house so I can go to work. [That's a joke, my friend].
If I am free during the day, I will try to get to a computer to reply to your posts.
I leave you with: THE SKIT WAS STUPID and Blasphemous. In case you forgot.
Be well, and have a good day. We have sun finally to start the day today--although unpleasantly cold. Thankfully, no snow.
This discussion has resolved to nothing. Clearly, you see no fault in your tone and attitude towards others, and it is not my place to try to change you. Before God, I have done my part in speaking out against your hostility towards others, but now I shall respectfully bow out of this thread.
Pray for me,
Michael Boutros
How many times have we entered the House of God in sin and even had the audacity to approach His Body and Blood without repenting, fasting, or coming early? How many times have we prayed the liturgy with no focus, even joking with the person next to us at times? How many times have we not made our full effort to dress in our best attire to meet the King of kings? I am guilty of all.
These sins are no less serious than making a silly video in church. One sin is manifest, the other only God can see. This video has presented us all with an opportunity to seriously reflect on how we respect the House of God. Let us put aside in repeatedly judging others without reflecting on ourselves.
It is one thing to sin in front of God and another thing to sin in front of God and people. I have said this before, and I'll say it again, it is better for one to smoke in their room (in private, I mean), than to smoke in public and cause others to fall. This video cannot be compared to personal sins because it is a stumbling block to all the viewers. A young person might see this and think it is funny, then try to pull it off themselves. The first two pages of this thread is a good example of what I just said.
This is far more dangerous and serious than personal sins.
Unworthy,
It is one thing to sin in front of God and another thing to sin in front of God and people. I have said this before, and I'll say it again, it is better for one to smoke in their room (in private, I mean), than to smoke in public and cause others to fall. This video cannot be compared to personal sins because it is a stumbling block to all the viewers. A young person might see this and think it is funny, then try to pull it off themselves. The first two pages of this thread is a good example of what I just said.
This is far more dangerous and serious than personal sins.
But we do commit the same disrespect before people in the church all the time. Has anyone ever laughed during a liturgy? During a tasbeha? Has anyone ever walked into the altar haphazardly and without reverence? I could go on and on.
These guys recorded their lack of respect. Ours is still in front of people it just wasn't on Youtube.
I never said what they did was alright. I said it should be an opportunity to reflect on our own sins before God in His house. We have caused others to stumble by our manner in church as well. So let's not act like we haven't and seize the opportunity to remove the speck out of others' eyes when the plank is in our own.
It is simple: The video was produced incorrectly because A, B, C, and D. There is no need to call people thugs, stupid, etc.
I agree that the Video has no taste and badly represent the Coptic Church, and although I can see ILSM's zeal and humor the producers of the video might not. I think its probably better to just tell them to take the video off and show them that is not proper in our Church.
I think the people in the video wanted to make something good, community wise as copts but lacked the knowledge about the Church and God which is Ok, we all have to learn sometimes.
St. Mary & St. Athanasius diocese (yes diocese because it has power over 7 churches)
God bless, Pray for me,
Cyril
Sorry spud. No bishop...no diocese.
I never called them personally stupid or thugs. To quote Minagir, "references, references,..."
It is well within the realm of proper discussion [even polite discussion] to have used the three personal adjectives cited in the initial sentence. Misfit is not equivalent to thug, and neither is brat to stupid. Cadets is relative to their voyage into the beyond.
I did not refrain from a long laundry list of adjectives to describe the youtube video and how stupid it is. Putrid, stupid, shameful, blasphemous, etc, etc.
I think this is within the realm of condemnation of an act...a sin if you will.