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Seven and four

ophadeceophadece
edited December 1969 in Hymns Discussion
Dear all,
Koiak midnight chants are commonly called "seven and four". I have heard many reasons on this, some of them even conflicting in their essence. I would like to learn the true principle and reason behind calling it by that label.
Thanks all.
God bless you and pray for us a lot

Comments

  • jydeaconjydeacon
    I believe it is called 7&4 because it consists of the 7 theotokias and the 4 Hoos' with their medeehas in between. That is just what i've heard. i don't know about its origin though
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    Yes, it is called 7 & 4 because all the people gather on Saturday night and say the 4 Hooses and their hymns, psalies, expositions, lobshs.......and the 7 Theotokeias and their hymns, psalies, expositions, lobshs. of course this only can be title for Saturday night only.
    In reality, we don't really do all of that. we don't say the psalies really. maybe some that are very femous like [coptic]Apahyt nem Palac[/coptic], or [coptic]}sepehmot `ntontk[/coptic], or [coptic]Ainahwc qen ougwm[/coptic]. some churchs say the theotokeias fully but the never say all the hymns for them or the expositions.
    H.G.B. Youannes does tasbeha every day in egeypt, which is the right way, and he says a lot of other things that go with the days.

    What we rather do on sunday is say some hymn of each day or on each Hoos, and do all the things for Sunday, most of the time.
  • Unknown
    Seven and four isn't an accurate name for it. It accuired this name some time during the Ottoman rule over egypt. It developed this name as the church got weaker and they stopped doing tasbeha daily and only did it at saturday night then they would finish with the holy liturgy in the morning.

    At Kiahk they used to say the 4 Hooses (like usual) and they used to say the theotokia of Sunday and 6 other theotokias (Monday, Tuesday, Wedensday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday theotokias) because they only did tasbeha on sunday.
    Nowadays we only say one theotokia of that day if the church does tasbeha daily.
    Pray 4 me
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    hm......you just said:

    [quote author=Kirmich link=topic=6034.msg80430#msg80430 date=1197996116]
    the 4 Hooses (like usual) and they used to say the theotokia of Sunday and 6 other theotokias (Monday, Tuesday, Wedensday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday theotokias).

    that's 7 & 4 to me. the history part i think you have right...am not disagreeing with that. but the name still have it's meaning. in ALL books, they say "Sab'a wa Arba'a". even when the book is ordered, it's ordered in the order of saying all of them in one night.
  • Basant TawfikBasant Tawfik
    [quote author=jydeacon link=topic=6034.msg80425#msg80425 date=1197992722]
    I believe it is called 7&4 because it consists of the 7 theotokias and the 4 Hoos' with their medeehas in between. That is just what i've heard. i don't know about its origin though


    Ur correct!!!!
  • ophadeceophadece
    Dear all,
    With all due respect for all of what you said (I do agree on this historical piece Kirmich gave us, as I heard it from a servant in our church), the thing that still strikes me is that in Koiak actually there are five canticles not just four. Was it due to the ignorance of the laypeople having called it "seven and four", or was it that the Koiak canticle didn't use to be chanted, or was it (which I highly doubt) that it was written after the name has already been given to the seven and four???
    God bless you and pray for us a lot
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=6034.msg80481#msg80481 date=1198099509]
    Dear all,
    With all due respect for all of what you said (I do agree on this historical piece Kirmich gave us, as I heard it from a servant in our church), the thing that still strikes me is that in Koiak actually there are five canticles not just four. Was it due to the ignorance of the laypeople having called it "seven and four", or was it that the Koiak canticle didn't use to be chanted, or was it (which I highly doubt) that it was written after the name has already been given to the seven and four???
    God bless you and pray for us a lot

    first i had a comment that i been wanting to say it. the month is named Kiahk, not Koiak....why....because the coptic name is [coptic]<oiak[/coptic]. in coptic when you have [coptic]oi[/coptic], this makes the sound ee. many people forget that and do the same thing with the word [coptic]metanoia[/coptic].

    now as how the Hoos. It's called the Great Kiahk Hoos. It's not counted part of the 4 official hooses of the normal tasbeha. every season have a great hoos especially for the occasion...not part of the main midnight praises. the only reason we actaully say it on kiahk is that we're there anyway for the whole night...so why not say it.
  • ophadeceophadece
    Dear minagir,
    Very formative; thank you very much. Yes I forgot that pronunciation rule of "oi" in Coptic. I would assume that there is also the "h" as is added by the Copts long ago "the eitch breathing (= el tanafos el ha2y)". Thanks again for clearing this up with the Kiahk canticle as well.
    God bless you and pray for us a lot
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