Why and do they?

copticsledge

Hey all, I am not sure about something. Are we as a faith ok with the Catholics? I am not certain on this topic. i have a lot of Catholic friends and they are all good people but how come they can be so much looser (as far as morals, dating, drinking, partying, etc.) and still be able to enjoy the same fruits we do? I don't know maybe I sound ignorant, I am still young and need some guidance.

markos123

Actually, most of the time it is not the religion that guides people sometimes. People can associate themselves with a religion and not follow all of the guidance. Just like us, sometimes we are not the perfect examples of coptic orthodoxy in certain situations, but God accepts us back when we are serious about following his will.

I am pretty sure that drinking and partying are not condoned by the church itself, and their morals are the same as ours (as a church). I am not too sure about the dating (i do not know what is taught in the catholic church about this). But i am pretty sure that it (what is taught in the church) is not the same type that we see around us (how people practically use it)

-please correct me if I am wrong
-pray for me
GB

Unknown

The morals that they follow is not affected by that they are Catholics but because their culture is this. The culture affects a person more than the church (in this age at least). To us our culture is our church we say it is wrong to date and our culture follows that.(Maybe in Egypt it is more loose now but still).
         
The differences I am not so sure about. All I know is the split started as a political split and then turned in the faith because our faith is practically the same, but they say the the relationship between God the Son and God the Father is is that they are SIMILAR, we say they are the SAME.

Anglican

Yes, it is surely a cultural difference; our friend QT has mentioned several times the way in which the culture in Paris makes things a little different there.

But the essential remain the same- the need to repent, for amendment of life, and to walk in His way.

The Catholic Church has developed in conditions of greater freedom than those available to the Orthodox Church, and it has developed some doctrines beyond a stage we can quite accept without investigating them more fully.

However, the Catholic Church is clearly an Apostolic and sacramental one, and whilst we should not forget the differences between us, we might also remember the similarities. Of course, we believe that the fullness of the Faith is to be found only in Orthodoxy, whilst they hold the same with regard to their own Church. The late John Paul II described the Orthodox and Catholic Churches as 'two lungs' of the one heart - a thought-provoking phrase.

In Christ,

Anglian

Unknown

I would like to briefly point out that the terms "Apostolic Church" or "Apostolic succession" - from a traditional Orthodox perspective - can only be applied to the Orthodox Church.

While many churches - Assyrian, Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran - can claim some kind of line of succession, it is wrong to consider these as Apostolic Churches.

1. They have deviated from both Apostolic faith and practice.
2. As St Basil the Great points out, by separating themselves from the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church through their schism, their Apostolic link and succession is broken and the sacramental grace that such Apostolicity involves is lost.

Anglican

[quote author=Orthodox11 link=topic=5921.msg79274#msg79274 date=1194739977]
I would like to briefly point out that the terms "Apostolic Church" or "Apostolic succession" - from a traditional Orthodox perspective - can only be applied to the Orthodox Church.

While many churches - Assyrian, Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran - can claim some kind of line of succession, it is wrong to consider these as Apostolic Churches.

1. They have deviated from both Apostolic faith and practice.
2. As St Basil the Great points out, by separating themselves from the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church through their schism, their Apostolic link and succession is broken and the sacramental grace that such Apostolicity involves is lost.


Dear Orthodox 11,

Indeed - but which Orthodox Church are we meaning?

In Christ,

Anglian

Unknown

I have almost lost my tether with this topic...to think how the Internet has revolutionized our exposure to controversial issues that though pertinent, was largely oblivious to the public is most frightening. This topic is pressing for me, largely because I have close relatives that have a mixed marriage. An EOC mother, OOC father and OOC children. All are practicing, and they frequent both Churches with their sacraments. A priest allowed the marriage and the issue has been rather benign until now, since my aunt (EOC) has voiced some frustrations of my Church leadership and there is an obvious lack of participation now with the family in both Churches.
All of this controversy and "heretic" labellings and I have no idea what doctrinal issues or dogmas really impact our lifestyle or perception of God! The Miaphysite or Chalcedon controversy, even if this is put aside, I know the results of 4 other councils should not be readily embraced until real discernment by the holy fathers that are equipped by the Holy Spirit to do this. I know this is out of my capacity, too. But I have visited my aunt's Church (EOC) and I have visited the Etheopian Church (OC) and I observed that they are as dissimilar and yet confluent to our Church. I have been raised with them, and I have the idea that they are a legitimate, Apostolic, Orthodox Church drilled into my head, and it would be inflammatory if I would arouse suspicion about the legitimacy of the split. If would be hard to say my Aunt and her family that they are in fact remarkably Nestorian etc. especially since this never ever ever comes up. The impact in belief of their supposed Diophysitism and our Miaphysitism is something I cannot observe- thus I can not soberly say that the schism should have happened. So along with the blessings of that priest, it is hard to argue that a mixed marriage was not ideal, and that they have downplayed a serious issue that could have justly led to their excommunication. Further, the problem arises when some priests outwardly refuse to give Communion to non-OOC or heterodox, and they will reply that they are fanatics, non-spiritual, Legalistic etc. I just do not know how to respond to that, since I have come to appreciate that as much as the schism may have been almost completely politically and could have potentially been resolved, that we should still be faithful regardless to the Church canons.

Unknown

Dear Anglian,

I know it is not your intention, only because I know you well enough to know so, but it does seem that you are baiting Orthodox11. I don't think it's fair that he be put on the spot like that.

How he personally applies the specifics of his post does not undermine the general validity of what he has said (i.e. that a group ceases to be "Apostolic" upon its separation from the Church and deviation from Apostolic doctrine, in spite of its historical roots), nor does it bear any relevance to this thread.

Unknown

[quote author=Anglian link=topic=5921.msg79286#msg79286 date=1194799941]
Dear Orthodox 11,

Indeed - but which Orthodox Church are we meaning?


While this is a perfectly valid question, it is one that should be debated elsewhere. The original poster was asking about the Orthodox (I'm naturally assuming she means OO) view of the Roman Catholic Church.

Prompted by (but not trying to challenge or refute) your post, I simply wished to attempt to offer a Patristic definition of the term "Apostolic," since it is one used in many different ways by many different people.

"Which Orthodox Church" is not a topic I've ever (as far as I can remember) attempted to adress on this forum, and it certainly was not my intention to do it on this thread.

Anglican

Dear Iqbal, Dear Orthodox 11,

It certainly was not my intention to 'bait' anyone here; in the context it seemed a not unreasonable question.

If one is going to deny Apostolicity to the see of St. Peter on the ground that the Catholic Church has deviated from Apostolic faith and practice, it seems only fair that we apply the same ecclesiological principles to Orthodoxy - hence the question.

It is, as it happens, unclear to me that the Oriental Orthodox do deny Apostolicity to the Catholics; nor is it clear that the EP does; I'd be happy to be put right on any of this. Should it be the case that we do, it would appear that the Catholic position is a good deal more nuanced than our own, since they certainly do not deny Apostolicity to both Orthodox communions.

In Christ,

Anglian

copticsledge

thank you everyone, this is clearing up a little.

p.s. Orthodox 11, i am a guy not a girl

+++God Bless+++