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What are your views on this?
Dear all,
I know the point that I will raise now will draw so much controversy, and debate, but I really hope and would like to ask you to not be biased to what the current situation in your church is like, and just think of it from an unprejudiced point of view.
"OK, here we go: what do you think about the use of projectors in church service?"
As for me, I find this practice completely unsuitable. My points of objection are:
1- the practice is absolutely distracting, as it draws your attention away from constantly looking to the altar and to the rituals the priest and the deacons are practising
2- also it doesn't add anything to the "conventional" prayer books and kholagies, which in that sense would be distracting in their own right as well.
3- and most importantly, they conceal the icons of the saints in the church, and I find that very very hard to grasp.
For me, in an ideal situation, the believers should just recite the hymns they have already learnt, and abouna likewise recite it out of their memory, and not books.
I know this doesn't happen in the real world, but I am asking you to debate with me the essence of the argument.
God bless you all and pray for us a lot
I know the point that I will raise now will draw so much controversy, and debate, but I really hope and would like to ask you to not be biased to what the current situation in your church is like, and just think of it from an unprejudiced point of view.
"OK, here we go: what do you think about the use of projectors in church service?"
As for me, I find this practice completely unsuitable. My points of objection are:
1- the practice is absolutely distracting, as it draws your attention away from constantly looking to the altar and to the rituals the priest and the deacons are practising
2- also it doesn't add anything to the "conventional" prayer books and kholagies, which in that sense would be distracting in their own right as well.
3- and most importantly, they conceal the icons of the saints in the church, and I find that very very hard to grasp.
For me, in an ideal situation, the believers should just recite the hymns they have already learnt, and abouna likewise recite it out of their memory, and not books.
I know this doesn't happen in the real world, but I am asking you to debate with me the essence of the argument.
God bless you all and pray for us a lot
Comments
BUT the projectors are useful because
1. they carry many books in one.
2. we don't have to worry about not having enough books
3. we wont loose them like books
4. the whole church can use it, because the people in the back or middle can barely see the alter and remember the projectors serve the same purpose as the books so either way they are both distracting and it is hard to memorize all the services, but in my church we use books for the priest except we have to with bad eyesite so we have a monitor for them.
the only thing i dont like is when the laptop replaces the katameros and i fought with abouna to get rid of that and we did. ;D
I didn't say they were not useful, or the books were, but as you rightly pointed out: both of these tools are a distraction in their own right. I don't agree with your point that people who stand at the back can't see the altar. I for one usually go late anyway, stand at the back and still the altar clearly. Remember that even those big churches like in Egypt have the altar raised up over the level of the floor and it is very easy for most people to see, let alone the upstairs circles, when churches get so busy. Let's hear from other members as well.
God bless you and pray for us a lot
Dear all,
what do you think about the use of projectors in church service?"
As for me, I find this practice completely unsuitable. My points of objection are:
1- the practice is absolutely distracting, as it draws your attention away from constantly looking to the altar and to the rituals the priest and the deacons are practising
i don't see that fully happending. ur not forcing ppl to pay attention....ur just giving another way to understand the liturgy instead of maybe thinking about somthing else. i know ur concerning about praying.....but praying must be there with the projector or not. don't forget, our liturgy is put togather taht way for our benifit not to sound nice when recording.... dafintly not. we can't just be spiritual. we have to balance our faith. part of it is understand what our rits and dogmas and worship. if you don't know anything about that how do u deffir from those who just belive in Christ.
it's a good arguement....but not good enough.
Let's think for a second....what is shown on the projectr screen...the liturgy, the hymn, the tasbeha and many other prayers and songs texts. what are all of these these are part of our faith...our works or more specificly the works of the apostles. the apsotles wouldn't be upset of this because you're just showing their work which they'll glad for to be viewed by their works towards Christ and the church. (according to Fr. Tadros Yacob) a bishop once said that why do u always thinks of hard things that our congregation today will not resist. knowing hymns i can understand but that's why there is book for everything else. memory in a great factor in our blessed body...but not everyone have it in this good of a way. also this minimzes oral teaching which is better in it's essence. am not saying that oral teaching is less improtant, on the contrary it's more trustable.
No, I am not trying to say that we have to make it hard on ourselves, or make faith a practically impossible thing to achieve in the church. But what I am saying is that this way we unconsciously breed some kind of illiteracy and negligence to learning hymns, or learning about the ritual ceremonials in the church.
Believe me when I tell you this: in my church, most of those who are British born, don't even care to sing hymns transliterated to them in English on the projector (and the point is not whether transliteration is good or not: we have discussed it in another post). Even more so, some (let me not say most) of the deacons just keep looking at the projector and never sing a word. While in other churches, like churches in London, which do not use projectors, I tend to find small children singing in Coptic. WOW, so lovely to my heart.
Something else: you have got a good point about the apostles' thoughts on doing this, but let me imagine this situation. I wouldn't actually think of taking my wife's photos off the wall, and putting up her life story, or some of her sayings even temporarily, just based on the two things being the same. I don't think they are. Let us discuss this more, and this helps in our edification of course.
God bless you all and pray for us a lot
Dear all,
No, I am not trying to say that we have to make it hard on ourselves, or make faith a practically impossible thing to achieve in the church. But what I am saying is that this way we unconsciously breed some kind of illiteracy and negligence to learning hymns, or learning about the ritual ceremonials in the church.
Believe me when I tell you this: in my church, most of those who are British born, don't even care to sing hymns transliterated to them in English on the projector (and the point is not whether transliteration is good or not: we have discussed it in another post). Even more so, some (let me not say most) of the deacons just keep looking at the projector and never sing a word. While in other churches, like churches in London, which do not use projectors, I tend to find small children singing in Coptic. WOW, so lovely to my heart.
Something else: you have got a good point about the apostles' thoughts on doing this, but let me imagine this situation. I wouldn't actually think of taking my wife's photos off the wall, and putting up her life story, or some of her sayings even temporarily, just based on the two things being the same. I don't think they are. Let us discuss this more, and this helps in our edification of course.
God bless you all and pray for us a lot
what your talking about here is more toward those specifc deacons or group of people. projector will not chage people's minds and skills to wether to learn hymns or not....or sing or not....or pray or not. it just provides an extra help for the poeple. you have the text in front of you and u just fallow. the poeple u talk about would need to understand their role as deacons and servants and as christians in general. and i think this would need to be in another post to.
u kno the main event we started the projector in was during st mary's fast during the glorifications whre u hear the 'zagharet' and every one s going crazy in the procession. and we would say more alhan during that time cuz we do have all in one place on a screen. here there is a great unity between the people when they'r looking at the same thing, text and praying together.
also it's an easy way to unify books and to edit when ever needed.
Personally speaking im not the biggest technology fan (yes ikno im sorta close minded)
I think the projectors are great for tasbeha, taraneem, displaying taraneem lyrics during the nayrooz feast etc.
but durin the mass........ehhh not hte biggest fan
i understand people find it useful but i'd honeslty prefer the Liturgy Books (the kholagy)
i.e. u guys notice the difference between reading a book online (pdf file) and reading one in print? Theres a huge difference to me...plus i find it easier to concentrate with the Liturgy going on b/c when you look up from your kholagy u only see hte mass not the hugee screen.......
I've been to a couple of masses in differnt churches......and i can honestly say that
the masses were i concentrated the most and felt most at one w/ the Liturgy were the ones in the poor monasteries/churches of upper egypt. The chruches are soo simple in structure (some of htemare made out of clay) they have beautiful ancient icons, huge wood curtains seperating the men and women, adn the congregation is made up of people who dont have that much earthly possesions and thus most of them show up with their "galabeyas" on....
the most technology these churches have are the simple 100 watt light bulbs that randomly hang down and the simple fans hung from the walls..........
(1) The projector gives a standard for all the congregation to use;
(2) it goes at the pace of the Church leaving people to be able to observe the rituals and not have to worry about finding the current page;
(3) the newcommer/catchumen has a reference that would otherwise he would not have (because he would have to ask a member of the congregation;
(4) it relieves the demand for several books
(5) it involves the often neglected congregation in the Liturgy and let's them able to SING (someone previously wrote in this thread that people should be quiet or stick to what they know; that is the most arrogant thing I have read in this forum, for Liturgy means work of the people, and to deny the congregation's right and ability is unorthodox.)
What must be known is that there should not be any imperative to learn other languages; the early Coptic fathers did not communicate in Coptic but in Greek, and the modern congregation should be able to be as simple as the early Copts and sing in one language!
But because people like you insist to make things complicated; that we pray and worship God with foreign words that are not from the heart; and that all the congregation must use and understand and pray these words, you have levied a heavy burden on us, and thus we cannot without books and/or projector possibly follow up.
You either pray in the language of the country, so all the congregation can understand the Liturgy without needing to resort to books or projector; or you keep these things on!
Ophadece, the use of Coptic and Arabic in the West is heaps more distracting than any of these technologies, yet the prominent Deaconate tells us it is unorthodox, unpatriotic, not in the best interest for unity of the Churches to get rid of it. Frankly, the congregation is going to realize that the early Copts never had to be multilingual and that these arrogant people are the unorthodox, unpatriotic and the ones who hinder our unity with Christ with our hearts.
Very Very well spoken and i agree with you 100% I would like to again mention that the Laptop/Projector should NOT replace a katamerous, YES IT CAN BE PROJECTED. BUT NOT REPLACE THE ACTUAL BOOK. I just wanted to restate that,
ur not replacing ya habibi. even my church didn't do that yet.
but a katameros is the readings of the days/sundays/lent/holy fiftys.....not a physical book. a katameros is the text and not the book. am not saying we should all change to that level....am just saying that there is nothing wrong with it. it's just a matter of diffrent church. some think it's easier to control, some think different.
No of course not, i guess it is a distraction now because we are still learning how to use the ppt with all the liturgies and working the kinks out
that's y u need one person be fully free to do that. not every one, but one person, one hand who would know the 3 languages thooo...depending on the languages in the ppts
The languages usually follow up with each other, so even though I may only know how to read English and Coptic I can still tell which slide I am supposed to be on.
yeahhhh...but i see that harder to deal with...
I personally believe that the projectors in church have both an upside and downside. The upside is it provides a visual for people who are visual learners (i.e. when Abouna is giving a sermon and does a powerpoint). It does hold all we need on one system. Yet at the same time at my church they are placed on the corners and it diverts attention away from the altar as was previously mentioned, but so do the books.
well u oviously can't put them so they would cover the altar. they are on the corner so u can still have the church and the altar seen.
Firstly, without the projector MOST people of the congregation cannot see the Altar. I think this is a realization that many people here have to grapple and grovel here a bit, because certainly this shows the error of your arguments.
Secondly, we are not spectators of the Liturgy- our goal is not to observe the priest's every move, or the happenings of the Altar, but to pray and meditate on OUR worship. The PPT facilitates this better than anything you have come up with; it provides quick, accessible reference to the true worship service, and that is the hymns and the prayers that are chanted.
As for the hidding of the Saints pictures; true they are the windows to Heaven, but they remain present in the Liturgy whether we can see them or not. However, our prayers need to be said for it to be heard by God.
Further, the supposed distraction of the one doing the service- this is his service! It is just as distracting as making sure that the Candles are lit, the Censor's coal is cleared from dust and accessed by the Priest, or any other service. At least this person's service allows for him to always be aware of what is being said (this was my job before, and I have exponentially increased my understanding of the liturgy during this service).
As I said in the beginning, this topic will draw too much controversy, and thank God we are all sharing our views. But, honestly, I feel like there is some digression, and there are some unncessary arguments in the first place. The whole point is: the projector is a distraction from the rituals, and the practices of rituals during the Mass. Sure we need to keep looking at the altar while praying: how on earth can we be distracted from the Body and the Blood of Jesus Christ for any thing that is a mere work of the human hands (that is not liturgy in its essential meaning being the work of the congregation). In my opinion, even the kholagies are distractions in their own right; however useful we shouldn't rely on them in understanding the rituals first, and second on praying, because as Doubting Thomas said the second most important thing after the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ is praying and contemplation. If people cannot have a view of the altar for whatever reason, then they should just (in my opinion) close their eyes and meditate on what is being said (not the point of this post, be it Arabic, English, or Coptic).
Another point is: let's imagine if some people in the congregation enter the church relying on the projector during the Mass: do you think they will actually need to know which ceremonial we are in? learn the hymns for that ceremonial? try to find out whose commemoration, or the readings of the day is? Well, to me, it is absolutely promoting illiteracy this projector thing is.
In an ideal world, I think that every Christian is a participant of the liturgy should attend the Mass from a place that they can see the altar clearly. And it is true that the church is built in such a way to help us do this. Whenever we get distracted even by some cries of babies (as maybe Doubting Thomas said) we should simply not concentrate on that. We simply should direct all our attention and emotion to the Mass, and what is being explained during the Mass by the rituals from abouna's side, and from the deacons' side. Hopefully, we share more views on this...
God bless you all and pray for us a lot
Which one of us goes to Church and from the time they enter to the time they leave does not set his eyes off the altar. Most of the guys are deacons which means they have go do this and that and make sure everything is ok. So already there are people who simply cannot look at the altar. I (as a girl, one who is not a deacon), have memorized most of the mass. With Abouna, I could probably pray the whole Liturgy (for instance). However, having a kholagy with me helps take away many distractions and wars from the devil. The closer we become to God the more the devil will fight with us to the last breath. If we sincerely try to pray the devil will never leave us alone. An instrument which helps keep us focused and on top is the kholagy. This is even more helpful when it's on a projector, it is in front of your eyes all the time, you can't miss it. Therefore, you can never miss prayer during the Liturgy. The important thing is not to look at the altar. I can do that for hours and hours and not benefit one thing. The important thing is to feel reverence to the Holy Body and Blood of Christ upon the altar, which has nothing to do with a projector. On the contrary, since the projector helps us to pray it helps us to feel more reverence to the Holy of Holies that is upon the altar. I might not look at the altar once during a Liturgy yet I have prayed to God and revered what is upon the altar more than him/her who has been looking upon the altar ever since the Liturgy started. (All this of course, is hypothetical.) We need to go into the depths and leave the shallow water, there is no eternal life at the shore.
I agree strongly with Life In Christ on this prayer and fighting the devil off part. And I also would like to add that I find it a bit hard to believe that concentrating on the altar you easily get distracted, while you don't get distracted looking at the projector? Is it because the projector keeps changing three four times a minute, while the priest and the deacons don't do much inside the altar anyway? I think we all have pictures of Jesus Christ and saints at home, and some of us (if not all) focus their attention towards the picture that doesn't necessarily move, and we don't complain that we can't concentrate. Well, we obviously get these fights as you said from the devil, but it is not the role of the picture to start moving so that we don't get distracted, but it is our role (like Life In Christ said) to fight it by praying more: personally: not reciting what the priest is saying.
I still have other questions, which I will ask if I get some interest from other members, as they all seem to have lost interest in this topic.
God bless you all and pray for us a lot
I really think that your argument depends on the church that you go to regularly. Remember there are churches in Egypt (most if not all) that still meet the same problem: not enough books, and they don't have a projector: do you think people stop singing in Kiahk because they can't find the aid? Not at all. Even this (which is not finding enough books in the church) encourages the people who really care to learn hymns by heart (which is ideal), and take their books with them; AND NOT BECOME DEPENDENT, AND HENCE AUDIENCE IN THE CHURCH.
Let me ask a question right now then: I have been talking about focusing on the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ during the liturgy proper, but would someone answer me to this?
Would anyone really care to focus on the Bible Stand ("mangaleya": forgive me if I translated it wrong) during the readings when you have got them very clear and in big text on the projector? I would really say that is a distraction: Jesus' words, especially during the reading of the Holy Gospel aren't being focused on - just following through on the projector. Let's hear other members' opinions as well.
God bless you all and pray for us a lot
greetings in Our Lord Jesus Christ!
I have never commented on the discussion boards before, but i have randomly read of the postings for a while now, and I must admit I am shocked by the views of some of the youth(assuming you are all youth?!)
Anyway I don't want to start on the wrong foot, but I am slightly troubled by what some of you are saying on this topic.
Firstly God has absolutely no problem what so ever in what form we read the liturgy whether on a laptop, in print, or even projected...lets move beyond the pettiness and be serious. It is just like our beloved church fathers and elders have taught us that fasting is not about the food, or the meat or milk for that matter, the target is control and submission of the flesh and its lusts ..."for the flesh lusts against the spirit".
-->Sometimes we get trapped on the means we lose sight of the ends!
SO as a starting point we shouldn't just blacklist technology been utilisised in our service as if it is "protestant"or by projecting the mass rather than reading from a kholige we have lost our touch with orthodoxy. We have this mindset on so many issue in our church, and frankly, it is holding us back and closed minded. Ask yourself does the Pope travel on donkey as Pope Kyrillos may have done early in his papacy or the previous Patriarchs did? NO! The church uses every advancement in technology to access larger areas and more people and reaching their hearts and minds of people, people whom Christ our saviour shed His precious blood for like you and I. Priests now use email and interrnet just like the rest of the western world does, our church broad casts its own channel "Aghapy TV" and I think it is great success , the pope did not say NO we have to use telegrams like our fathers did, this would be pathetic. So we should not simply oppose technology as a golden rule!!
Secondly, some of you say that reading in the mass takes away from spirituallity....it is not ideal?! I think that is troubling in actual fact some of the fathers of my diocese in sydney, the elder fathers I mean who are truly pillars of prayer and spirituality prefer to read and recommend you hold a book it allows them the priest and congregation to focus, by following the text in front of them it may stop your mind from wandering...but I am not saying this is a universal rule, I think it is personal preference at the end of the day, many priests differ in the style. But my point is, just brcause you prefer a kholige or projector in front of you does not make you less spiritual...
Finally the projection of the mass is ideal, you argue it distracts people, well think for a second, Any service can distract people, if done incorrectl...the way the deacons led the responses can be distracting if they behave inappropriately and continually discuss the upcoming hymn or praise, and always move the mic as some do! The alter deacons moving about too much, "playing" with the censer at times can be a distraction or stumbling block for the believers. But if organized properly none of these would be a distraction, including the projector, the wires are neatly concealed, one person (preferably out of site) changing the slides, and the liturgy is there for people to follow, pray, and read the words-remember Christ and the Lord also deal with us through our minds and intellect, it is not all Spirit don't fool yourself for a moment.
I hope I have not upset any one...I realise my views are strong.
God Bless, and hope you have a blessed week!
"seek first the Kingdom of heaven and all these things will be added to you"
I think you have missed the point here: the problem is not some youth are antitechnology, because certainly e-mailing, mailing lists and travelling in planes is not something that we disagree on being incorporated by the church. Nor is the use of technology INSIDE the church. The point is what it does to the Mass. You rightly said that anything could be a distraction like deacons playing with mics, or young deacons playing with the censor, but this doesn't (or shouldn't) distract a large number of the congregation if they are concentrating on the Body and the Blood of Jesus in the first place. The problem is that the projector (and the kholagies to an extent) are a distraction to the congregation as a whole: distraction from the altar and from the "mangaleya" and promotes laziness and ignorance with church rituals and hymns at all. Let's also hear from other members on this.
God bless you and pray for us a lot
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Hi Ophadece,
Thanks for the reply:)
I understood what I posted was general in some respects but it neatly applies to this particular issue. The projector is fundamentally NO diffrent from the Kholige, at the end of the day allowing something in mass to distract you is a result of attitude, poor preparation before the mass, maybe lack of purity of heart etc..., it is not some ideal atmosphere that will result in a group of beilivers suddenly lifting their hearts to the Lord, it is a determined heart and mind which comes to church thinking today I will praise and worship the Lord, and recieve the grace of His Body and Blood.
So my point about utlising technology is that I can see no difference between the projector or using the kholige, or not having any text at all; I really do think this has in 'true' bearing on whether those praying are distracted. Even so the projector gives soo many advanatges as my friends have pointed out over the discussion.
Finallly you keep saying we should be focusing on the body and blood, as if by looking at the projector screen we are not?! That is really odd cause about 70% of the poeple in church can not see what is happening on the altar anyway. The truth of the matter is we see Christ through the prayers, when we lift our hearts to him, and pray with sincerity, with or without the project, this is when we experience His presence and we are then made 'worthy' to recieve His Holy Body and Blood through His grace and Mercy, cause we prayed with honest and contrite heart.
Look forward to hearing from you...God Bless